Disussion of a text: Part 5

Back to Part 4

Date:    Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:28:21 -0400
From:   dstreever
Subject:  Re: Fw: Miss Powell

Actually, the crime was *not* swearing, and if she cussed me out, I am quite
sure she would not have gotten the boot.

Now, please look at it my way.

Cybermind is, ultimately, *Alan's* list. Diane Powell came ON alan's list of
her OWN FREE WILL, and decided she did not like it. Now, what is
appropriate? Unsubbing. So when she made her distate clear, Alan unsubbed
her.

Now, let's say she came into Alan's home, and attacked him for his
wallpaper/books/furniture. Would it not be appropriate for Alan to
unsub her?

The only "bad behaviour" here was mine, in swearing back and losing my
temper. Alan had every right to unsub her.

****************

Date:   Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:24:02 -0500
From:   Wendlyn Alter
Subject:  Re: How?


> How did you find Cybermind. Or, did it find you?

Browsing through some list of lists... Couldn't remember which, or what
description captured my interest. So I went out searching to see how
Cybermind presents itself to the unsuspecting. ;-) It might be easier to be
tolerant with newbies when we see through their eyes what THEY come in
thinking the list is about.

TOPICA --
List Name CYBERMIND (CYBERMIND)
Purpose: Cybermind is a mailinglist devoted to the discussion of
philosophical, psychological, and social issues emerging in cyberspace.
List Type: Unmoderated discussion

www-psych.stanford.edu --
Cybermind (Subjectivity in Cyberspace)
Discussion of the philosophical and psychological implications of
subjectivity in cyberspace.

...And have we not been doing that lately, in spades! A veritable case
study in the core theme of the list.

I also took the time to thoroughly reread the Intro on the Cybermind
homepage. I confess I only skimmed it when I joined - at the time, it
seemed abstractly idealistic and lovely, but it's actually quite specific
to the interesting dynamics since I've been here... and having immediately
gotten into trouble, I realized I'd better know the rules.

In all caps -- by policy, posts containing offensive *subjects or language*
will NOT be censored. I assume though that pointing out that such posts may
be considered offensive will also not be censored. (The potential for
offense is priorly assumed by the policy that protects it.) Further, I
respectfully propose that a post using offensive language to declare
someone else's post offensive is clearly also protected speech under this
policy. <wry grin>

The official CM Intro is an exciting vision, allowing for differences, even
challenges, in the context of collective exploration. I know this is old,
well-owned text for many of you, but consider how these ideas strike
someone approaching the list with "beginner's mind"--

"This is an 'open list' - posts on all aspects of the above issues and
more will be welcomed. It is open to general discussion, group readings
of published works, and the sharing and critique of participants'
works-in-progress.

"One concern we hope to address is the way in which much theoretical work
on cyberspace to date reflects an exclusive, totalizing bias, thus
foreclosing some of the most interesting and radical possibilities for
the development of Net culture. We want to challenge ourselves and the
list members to integrate issues of race, sex, class, sexuality and
culture in our efforts to think cyberspace together.

"We believe this list will be an important forum for opening up new
perspectives on cyberspace and cyberculture, and are anxious and excited
to engage in a dialogue with all interested parties on the types of
issues described here. Our list is open to everyone, be they academics,
Net "technicians," or ordinary citizens of cyberspace who wish to join us
in thinking and discussing the present and future of this fascinating,
exciting, and sometimes frustrating realm - and, ultimately, of
ourselves."

****************

Date:   Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:27:20 -0400
From:   dstreever
Subject:  Re: How?

Good points, Wendlyn, as always :-)

I do disagree with the case of Ms. Powell. I feel her behaviour was not fit
for society, let alone this list.

****************

Date:   Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:10:33 -0500
From:   Wendlyn Alter
Subject:  Re: Fw: Miss Powell

>Now, please look at it my way.
>
>Cybermind is, ultimately, *Alan's* list.

As you see from my previous post, my reading of the official list Intro
disallows **neither** your colorful posts, nor Miss Powell's. (Nor Alan's
initial post, nor my objection to it.) All are permissible within the
STATED policies of the list.

Please look at it my way - when I joined the list, read the descriptions
and the lengthy intro, nowhere did it state that this was ALAN's list.
It kept emphasizing phrases like "sharing and critique... challenge ourselves
to integrate... think cyberspace together... anxious and excited to engage
in a dialogue... open to everyone." Please - recognize that people are
arriving with that in mind.

I mean, of course he's one of the originators and moderators. But all the
lists I've been on have had originators and moderators, and none of them
have played the very central defining role Alan does on this list. (Well,
one - but it self-destructed because most of us insisted on thinking
independently and sometimes disagreeing with her, and it drove her crazy to
be disagreed with.) If it really is Alan's list in an exclusive sense, then
I suggest that it should SAY so in the descriptions, and CERTAINLY in the
Introduction. If criticism is not allowed, then it should say so! You can't
have all these ferocious unwritten rules and then wax livid when unwitting
people break them.

Sure, I "should" have done my homework to find out the context of the post
of Alan's that I found offensive. (And I am doing that, now.) But nobody
can legitimately complain when such a post hits someone out of the blue and
they react to what it APPEARS to be saying. Especially when those same
people react to how somebody ELSE's offensive post appears, without doing
the homework to find out why SHE wrote what she wrote, and what personal
history was behind it. We can't insist that person 'A' be given the benefit
of the doubt on a single rather scary out-of-context text, but that person
'B' may be harshly judged and virtually "executed" based on a likewise
out-of-context text.

Doesn't this seem reasonable to you? I mean from a strictly objective point
of view?

I know you are speaking truly from your heart, but there are other widely
varying, perfectly valid subjectivities present here too. That's what makes
CM so rich and distinctive!

--Wendlyn

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:31:29 -0500
From:   Elizabeth Barrette
Subject:  Re: Since so many asked....


On 14 Apr 01, at 10:28, Dr. Salwa Ghaly wrote:

> Your project is really interesting, and I look forward to hearing more
> about it in the future. One question about French feminism comes to
> mind: how do you respond to critics of this school who accuse it of
> biological essentialism?

   <eeeeeevil grin> Oh, I used to do this all the time in college. I
just be myself. They last an average of five minutes before my
notably genderflexed personality starts to cause bricks to rain from
the ceiling of their reality tunnel.

   Just as an example, Doug and I were shopping the other day.
I've recently gained enough weight (this is a good thing) to make
my legs rub together when I walk (not such a good thing) so I was
looking for underwear with short legs that would keep my skin from
chafing when I'm wearing a skirt. I don't wear skirts often, but I do
dress up for special occasions. Well, the only women's undies
currently sold with legs are horrid control-top contraptions. Feh! I
did find some biking shorts that looked promising, which I may try.
And then Doug suggested *boxers* and a little bell went bing!
inside my head. Perfect. Just what I was looking for. The idea of
wearing boxer shorts under an elegant dress just tickles me no end.

   Biological essentialism is a slice of a very broad bell curve.
Some people are quite characteristically masculine or feminine,
matched to the body they happen to be wearing. It's a strong
determining factor -- but *universal* it isn't. My personality
contains some very strong markers for both masculine and
feminine genders, and then some. When people hit one that they
don't expect, it *really* tends to throw them for a loop. The little
genderflexy things like the above are bad enough. But when I pop
out one of the seriously male ones in a very blatantly female body,
well, that's worse -- like when a woman starts blathering about
upteen-zillion details of her personal life and other people's
relations and I come back with the classic male "Who CARES?"
(This is not to say that all men or all women would respond in the
same way, but there are observable patterns and people tend to
mistake those for universals.) You can just *see* the mental
image on her movie screen flash to a young man wearing a white t-
shirt and a five-o-clock shadow. Ah, the fun of a personality that
includes roughly equal proportions of feminist and male chauvinist.
You haven't seen mayhem until you've seen the bitch and the pig
cohabiting the same body.

>I think it's a charge that one has to take
> seriously. Are we willing to subscribe to the view that "gender
> difference" is absolute?

   Well, no. It's absolute for some people, in that there are
individuals who seem quite exclusively masculine or feminine, as
defined by their culture or an average of known cultures. But there
are others for whom gender is as much a mood as the color of
clothing they feel like wearing that day.

>Wouldn't this lead to other blind spots and
> limitations in the way we view women's writing and women *and*
> writing? Questions, questions. Anyway, thank you for giving us a
> glimpse of your work.

   Of course. Most writing, in my experience, is not significantly
gender-marked. Some, however, is *very* gender-marked. There
are certain types of stories that most people of the opposite gender
just won't "get." Check out _Sisters in Fantasy_ if you want an
example of women's fiction that is so strongly expressive of
women's reality that it *didn't sell*. The editors asked the writers to
send them the story they couldn't publish anywhere else. Most of
the writers already had at least one such in the drawer. The
difference is hard to pin down -- some ineffable shift in worldview --
but when you look at the stories, you can see its shadow cast long
across the page. Ditto Suzette Haden Elgin's excellent dictionary
of Laadan, the women's language. It contains words that make
most men go, "Why would anyone want to talk about *that*?"
Who cares? What does it matter? Well, the premise was that all
the current languages are pretty male-oriented and tend to
shortchange women's perceptions. Looking at these books, I can
see why. <g> But I've got to be in feminist mode to "get" it.

   Blessings,
   Elizabeth

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:59:27 -0500
From:   "Robert A. Kezelis"
Subject:  Re: How?


on 4/13/01 10:24 PM, Wendlyn Alter at wynalter@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:

>> How did you find Cybermind. Or, did it find you?
>
> Browsing through some list of lists... Couldn't remember which, or what
> description captured my interest. So I went out searching to see how
> Cybermind presents itself to the unsuspecting. ;-) It might be easier to be
> tolerant with newbies when we see through their eyes what THEY come in
> thinking the list is about.

[[snip]]

> "We believe this list will be an important forum for opening up new
> perspectives on cyberspace and cyberculture, and are anxious and excited
> to engage in a dialogue with all interested parties on the types of
> issues described here. Our list is open to everyone, be they academics,
> Net "technicians," or ordinary citizens of cyberspace who wish to join us
> in thinking and discussing the present and future of this fascinating,
> exciting, and sometimes frustrating realm - and, ultimately, of
> ourselves."
>

well, methinks that from a hyper-view, we are "living" out our philosophical
thoughts, perceptions and ideas (Maurizio excepted, of course).

Alan is obviously an important part, but not an exclusive one, to be
sure.
On many threads, he remains silent. On certain issues, he is the first, only
and total correspondent. He weaves his thoughts, sometimes imperceptably,
yet in the background. He does not CONTROL thought or concepts in any
egotistical way. To the contrary. He loves open eyes and thoughtful
opinion.

Is this list a collegial instruction in how to learn philosophy on the
net?
Of course not. Is it interactive, aware, confident, yet almost shy?
Absolutely. Is it polite? with out a doubt. Does it contain gems, wonderful
facets from around the world? That is it's greatest asset.

Then again, we are "living" this forum, not merely being snobbish
educational types talking down our collective noses, worried about tenure
and abusing all that don't fit our biased preconceptions of philosophy,
art and life

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:10:13 -0400
From:   Mike Gorecki
Subject:  Re: Fw: Miss Powell


No! I will not be Filed, Stamped, Briefed, Debriefed, or Numbered! I am not
a eID_Number, I am a free man... ;-)

------Original Message------
From: Wendlyn Alter <wynalter@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: CYBERMIND@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: April 14, 2001 4:10:33 AM GMT
Subject: Re: Fw: Miss Powell


>Now, please look at it my way.
>
>Cybermind is, ultimately, *Alan's* list.

[[snip]]

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:30:27 -0400
From:   dstreever
Subject:  Re: Fw: Miss Powell

This is true!

I think one thing many people think is that *I* unsubbed Powell. In fact, I
did not do this, nor could I.

However, I agree with the decision to unsub Ms. Powell, as she clearly did
not like the list nor it's contents; she insulted the entire list in her
reply to me.

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:11:46 +0400
From:   Salwa Ghaly
Subject:  Re: Since so many asked....

   Biological essentialism is a slice of a very broad bell curve.
Some people are quite characteristically masculine or feminine,
matched to the body they happen to be wearing. It's a strong
determining factor -- but *universal* it isn't. My personality
contains some very strong markers for both masculine and
feminine genders, and then some. When people hit one that they
don't expect, it *really* tends to throw them for a loop.

Yes, it's always a riot when this happens!! But that's exactly my point.
Some of the tenets of mainstream French feminism are too deterministic, too
totalizing to allow us to see the nuances you point to and the tremendous
variations and possibilties. I personally think some of these feminisits
lack a sense of humor. Relax and everything will fall into place is what I
say. But to keep harping on this idea of writing with the body, the only
way women know how ... well, not very convincing, for me at least.

>
I think it's a charge that one has to take
> seriously. Are we willing to subscribe to the view that "gender
> difference" is absolute?

   Well, no. It's absolute for some people, in that there are
individuals who seem quite exclusively masculine or feminine, as
defined by their culture or an average of known cultures. But there
are others for whom gender is as much a mood as the color of
clothing they feel like wearing that day.

I agree with you 100%. But, the French feminists don't. They (along with
Kristeva, btw) argue with a straight face that women have been banished from
the realm of the symbolic due to specific biological characteristics.
However, all isn't lost, because they can always fall back on the
pre-symbolic, the source of poetic impulse and artistic creativity. If
women want to be successful writers, they should nurture "le parler femme,"
this "writing with the body." I don't know about you, but I find this a
Pandora's box. Jen is right, there is something admirable about unsettling
and deconstructing patriarchal linguistic structures and practices. And
working with a sexist language like French, these feminists have quite a
battle ahead of them. But, must we attack "male" modes of discourse (if
there is such a thing!) by arguing that we, women, are "unique" in the way
we wield language?! Wouldn't we be strait-jacketing ourselves by accepting
such a contention?

Over the past two days, the sociolinguistic comments on Canadians and
Americans have been most enlightening and delightful :-) We can also draw
on a whole body of research that has come to alarming conclusions about how
men and women converse. Dale Spender and others did a good job of
attracting attention to all the difficulties women encounter when trying to
put in their two bits worth, your point exactly about getting a "decent
education" in a class full of boys. I personally see *this* as the terrain
where our energies, as women, should be deployed: unmask that which appears
"normal," show the ways in which language is sexist, work on changing modes
of communication etc. But to condemn me to the pre-linguistic? I think
not.


>Wouldn't this lead to other blind spots and
> limitations in the way we view women's writing and women *and*
> writing? Questions, questions. Anyway, thank you for giving us a
> glimpse of your work.

   Of course. Most writing, in my experience, is not significantly
gender-marked. Some, however, is *very* gender-marked. There
are certain types of stories that most people of the opposite gender
just won't "get." Check out _Sisters in Fantasy_ if you want an
example of women's fiction that is so strongly expressive of
women's reality that it *didn't sell*. The editors asked the writers to
send them the story they couldn't publish anywhere else. Most of
the writers already had at least one such in the drawer. The
difference is hard to pin down -- some ineffable shift in worldview --
but when you look at the stories, you can see its shadow cast long
across the page. Ditto Suzette Haden Elgin's excellent dictionary
of Laadan, the women's language. It contains words that make
most men go, "Why would anyone want to talk about *that*?"
Who cares? What does it matter? Well, the premise was that all
the current languages are pretty male-oriented and tend to
shortchange women's perceptions. Looking at these books, I can
see why. <g> But I've got to be in feminist mode to "get" it.


Agreed. But, from my experience with comparative literature, when writings
are clearly gendered, they are so by virtue of their themes and worldview,
as you put it, and not necessarily or consistently because of any "feminine"
idiosyncrasies in language, style or literary technique.

Thanks for giving me the chance to think aloud! I think we're more or less
in agreement here...

Salwa

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:23:05 -0500
From:   "Robert A. Kezelis"
Subject:  Re: Miss Powell


on 4/14/01 1:10 PM, Mike Gorecki at mjgorecki@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:

> No! I will not be Filed, Stamped, Briefed, Debriefed, or Numbered! I am not
> a eID_Number, I am a free man... ;-)
>

you are number 6.

I am number 2.

Who is number 1?

you are   number 6.

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:09:06 -0300
From:   Rose Mulvale
Subject:  Re: Fw: Miss Powell


> No! I will not be Filed, Stamped, Briefed, Debriefed, or Numbered! I am
not
> a eID_Number, I am a free man... ;-)

Did that TV programme have *impact*, or what?!

- Number One

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:16:45 +0200
From:   Rowena
Subject:  Re: Fw: Miss Powell

Rose,

please help a tv-less European,
what program?

Rowena

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:40:35 EDT
From:   Jennifer Vasil
Subject: Re: An Alternative Alternative Was Re: talks with God

Actually, David, biological sex is a genetic fact. Gender has fairly been
proven a social construction. And if the human genome project has any
impact, the 1/100,000 bit of difference between any two people's DNA
sequences will probably nullify most issues of race and sex within the next
few years anyway...

Jen

In a message dated 4/14/2001 1:54:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
dstreever@NETZERO.NET writes:


 you don't see Race as a "fact", but what about Gender? Both have genetic and
 cultural difference, the only thing about Gender is it is a standard in all
 cultures. (I.E. it is a genetic fact in all cultures)

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:41:43 -0400
From:   dstreever
Subject:  Re: An Alternative Alternative Was Re: talks with God


Actually, by Gender, I was referring to biological sex...

sorry if my term was incorrect! I had assumed Elizabeth to be referring to biological sex, with her usage of the term Gender...

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:57:10 -0300
From:   Rose Mulvale
Subject:  Re: Fw: Miss Powell

Rowena -

Do you see that red glow in the west? That isn't sunset, Ma'am - that's a
Rosy glow. I can't remember the name of that absolutely stunning,
captivating, brilliant TV series written by and starring a purely _gorgeous_
British actor named Patrick McGoohan. Oh - wait! Was it "The Prisoner"? A
psychological thriller - only you had to think for the thrill. Bloody
marvellous, it was!

I understand that some segments are available on CD - is true?

- Rose, who isn't a number either (she said, carefully)

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:06:54 -0500
From:   Elizabeth Barrette
Subject:   Re: An Alternative Alternative Was Re: talks with God

On 14 Apr 01, at 14:50, dstreever wrote:

> Reincarnation doesn't work for me, simply because I don't believe in time.
> I rather see myself as existing simultaneously everywhere/when and
> therefore "deja-vu" are just brief glimpses into another place/time I
> happen to be at. (Using the terms time and when merely for those who
> do happen to believe in said concept)

   This is actually closer to the truth. Linear time is an illusion.
Mortal life is a temporal gravity well. Step outside it, and you can
do all kinds of stuff. Alas, I can't explain in English why
reincarnation still works given the lack of linear time ... the closest
I can come is to say it's a bit like riding a bicycle and listening to
music at the same time. A soul is large and complex and can do
many things "at once" even though it doesn't feel like "at once"
from some perspectives. Complicated.

> As for Race...
>
> you don't see Race as a "fact"

   The genetic composition of a human is fact. The drawing of
racial lines is a social convention, which many people insist on
treating as fact. Watch the ruckus when scientists assess a
bunch of, say, "Black" people for determinative factors and find that
physical appearance really isn't a very good yardstick for figuring
out the boundaries of genetic groups.

, but what about Gender? Both have
> genetic and cultural difference, the only thing about Gender is it is
> a standard in all cultures. (I.E. it is a genetic fact in all
> cultures)

   Gender is a social identity. Sex is a biological one. Both
have factual aspects, but gender is *not* standard across all cultures.
Some cultures offer more than two gender options -- one of the
most famous is the "berdache" or "two souled" category that some
Native American tribes recognized, men who behaved in many
ways as women, or women who behaved in many ways as men, a
kind of "between" status and believed to be very powerful
magically. And of course, while many cultures agree on rough
outlines of what is "masculine" or "feminine" there are some
notable exceptions. Gender is more a matter of opinion or
preference than fact.

   With sex, well, biology does weird things with chromosomes
and body development at times. Doctors usually try to cut-n-paste
things into a more socially acceptable configuration. This has met
with a spectacular lack of success with regards to making the
ambiguously-sexed individuals happy with their bodies. If your
chromosomes are XX, then you're genetically female and that's a
fact. But if your chromosomes are X* (that is, the guy looks
through the microscope and says, "Well, that's an X chromosome,
and that blot next to it doesn't look like either an X or a Y.") then
the fact is that you are not biologically either male or female, but
something else.

   Blessings,
   Elizabeth

****************

Date:   Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:06:56 -0500
From:   Elizabeth Barrette
Subject:  Re: An Alternative Alternative Was Re: talks with God

On 14 Apr 01, at 16:41, dstreever wrote:

> Actually, by Gender, I was referring to biological sex...
>
> sorry if my term was incorrect! I had assumed Elizabeth to be
> referring to biological sex, with her usage of the term Gender...

   Sex refers to biology; i.e. one's chromosomes and gonads.
Gender refers to a social construct usually but not quite always
anchored in sex. There are more than two of both, but not all
societies acknowledge this. No, sex really isn't an either/or
proposition. Chromosomes and genitalia sometimes twist
themselves into *very* strange and ambiguous shapes.

   Blessings,
   Elizabeth

****************

Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:24:08 -0400
From:   dstreever
Subject:  Re: An Alternative Alternative Was Re: talks with God


Hmmm see the thing is, I think we might believe in a similar thing, I just
won't use the term reincarnation, simply because I feel it denotes linear
time frames...

I don't believe in karma, either; to me, there is no punishment/reward for
anything we do here.

I believe in the complicatedness of the soul; in fact, I believe I am
everywhere at once! (of course, I believe we all share the same soul
so...)
I don't believe in an individual soul/spirit, and that our personal "energy
vibration" is part of a greater "whole"...
>
>   This is actually closer to the truth. Linear time is an illusion.
> Mortal life is a temporal gravity well. Step outside it, and you can
> do all kinds of stuff. Alas, I can't explain in English why
> reincarnation still works given the lack of linear time ... the closest I
> can come is to say it's a bit like riding a bicycle and listening to
> music at the same time. A soul is large and complex and can do
> many things "at once" even though it doesn't feel like "at once"
> from some perspectives. Complicated.
>

Right, the genetic composition of a human is a fact, and different races
have different genetics... as do different sexes, but there are grey areas!
Especially as inter-racial mingling becomes more and more common.

It's like a line in the movie Bullworth, where he says the problem is that
there are whites and blacks; then he goes on to say that they should all
just have so much sex there aren't anymore whites and blacks ;-) as great as
that would be, no more racism, I don't think the problem (ultimately) is
colour but culture; I have a white culture, and while I am friends with
others from other races/colours, I am not the same; they have friends that
won't have much to do with me, and I'm sure I have friends who wouldn't have
much to do with them.
>
>   Gender is a social identity. Sex is a biological one. Both have
> factual aspects, but gender is *not* standard across all cultures.


Actually, I really meant sex here, of course. I agree with you on gender,
and of course sex can get messy ;-) Oh wait, I meant biology of
course...

I am curious though; you insinuate one can step outside of mortal life.
While I do believe in shamanism and practice trancework (to drums and
scents, I do not use or advocate drug usage) I believe it's just accessing
the "deeper" levels of connectivity; and can be explained in more
scientific terms than "magic" (i.e. I have a personal "energy" and by
causing changes in it by altering my mood I can alter other things with the
release)

As for stepping outside of mortal life (I obviously got carried away/off
track Please forgive me, he said with a grin :-) ) what do you mean
precisely? Do you refer to "will-working", or magick? I know you are pagan;
do you refer to assuming the "god-form"? (Can't remember the name for it...
the magickal personality? Of course, that's more Golden Dawn....)

Cheers,
David

****************

Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:20:13 -0400
From:   John Andrews
Subject:  Gender&Tonic

I could use a little Gin & Tonic right now, served by my woman__been a long day in the salt mines...

However, before my drink and a deep sleep, a few thoughts on Jen's gender:
I'll never forget the day I picked up Time Magazine with the cover page saying
'Men and Women Are Different'. Gender had been declared dead in
lecture halls for years, and now it lives again. That was an epiphany for me, i.e.,
academic musings had become mainstream.

Political polemic had spilled and was now running down coffee tables all
over America...Women and men - au natural, score 1...
Social construction gender entities, score 0. The jig was up, I thought,
however, who am I to express an opinion that is socially constructive...

Chimpanzees were recently compared to man in DNA composition. Chimpanzees have
99% parity. Little things mean a lot.

Racial differences are a wonderful amalgam of diversity expressed biologically
and socially, but its social impact has the edge on the human genome, I think...

Johnny

  • Gender has fairly been proven a social construction. And if the human
  • genome project has any impact, the 1/100,000 bit of difference between
  • any two people's DNA sequences will probably nullify most issues of
  • race and sex within the next few years anyway...

  •   Jen

    ****************

    Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:57:58 -0500
    From:   Wendlyn Alter
    Subject:  Re: Gender&Tonic


    >Political polemic had spilled and was now running down coffee tables
    >all over America...Women and men - au natural, score 1... Social
    >construction gender entities, score 0. The jig was up, I thought,
    >however, who am I to express an opinion that is socially
    >constructive...
    >
    >Chimpanzees were recently compared to man in DNA composition.
    >Chimpanzees have 99% parity. Little things mean a lot.
    >
    >Racial differences are a wonderful amalgam of diversity expressed
    >biologically and socially, but its social impact has the edge on the
    >human genome, I think...
    >
    >Johnny

    The real biology of sex lies in hormones. DNA just triggers. Anybody who's
    had their hormones messed with - testosterone too high or low, cyclic
    estrogen and progesterone - knows beyond a doubt that this is not a social
    construct.

    Like right now, for instance, while I'm on megadoses of prescribed
    progesterone during recovery from surgery. PMS x100. (Y'all can attest to
    that.) Everything about my worldview is affected.

    For years I had weirdly unpredictable periods, but always knew when mine
    was about to start because suddenly I couldn't stop cleaning house.
    Nothing seemed so fascinating and important as cleaning house! No conscious
    reasoning (or even awareness, often) present whatsoever. I'd just look
    around and realize I'd been cleaning feverishly for the last four hours. To
    appreciate this, you have to know what a total slob I am; I otherwise NEVER
    clean house.

    Not different at all from my male canaries who knew to present bits of
    fiber and fluff to an attractive female, and my female canaries who knew
    exactly how to fashion them into a nest, without ever having done it or
    seen it done before in their lives.

    Fifteen years ago I spent a year on male hormones to cure endometriosis. A
    very interesting experiment. Everyone should get to play with cross-gender
    hormones. It would go a long way to promote mutual understanding.

    Race, now, I wonder. It's not in the same category at all; there's nothing
    like hormonal differences. Possibly some traits resulting from selective
    breeding through the millenia - women of different cultures consider
    different qualities attractive in a mate. But even these, if they exist,
    would quickly disappear as soon as races begin mixing up genes
    together.

    --Wyn

    ****************

    Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:24:16 -0500
    From:   Elizabeth Barrette
    Subject:  Re: Since so many asked....

    On 14 Apr 01, at 23:11, Salwa Ghaly wrote:

    > I agree with you 100%. But, the French feminists don't. They (along

    Yes, I remember studying them -- and not being impressed
    with them on that account -- in college.
          ---8<---
    > linguistic structures and practices. And working with a sexist
    > language like French, these feminists have quite a battle ahead of
    > them. But, must we attack "male" modes of discourse (if there is such
    > a thing!) by arguing that we, women, are "unique" in the way we wield
    > language?! Wouldn't we be strait-jacketing ourselves by accepting
    > such a contention?

    Some modes of discourse, I think, should be attacked -- or at
    least, discouraged, challenged, deconstructed, etc. These include
    such things as obscene male conversations intended to be
    overheard by women for the purpose of making the female
    listener(s) feel uncomfortable so that she will leave what they
    consider to be "their" male-dominated space and go back to what
    they consider to be "her" proper feminine sphere, such as her
    house. I don't think that asserting the unique features of any
    linguistic group is necessarily a strait-jacket, though. All affinity
    groups have their own private jargon, which may be sparse or rich.
    Feminists do, academics do, doctors do, teenagers do, even
    individual families do. The larger and more cohesive and more
    distinctive the group, the stronger the language markers tend to be.

    Women are a large group who share certain experiences quite
    broadly, so that does tend to influence their use of language. Men
    have the same thing with the same result, but their shared
    experiences are different ones. BUT you have to remember that
    not only does thought influence language, language also influences
    thought. What a woman thinks about her experiences will tend to
    color what she says about them -- and what words the English (or
    whatever) languages offers her as a vehicle for her thoughts will
    tend to color how she thinks about them. Just as an example, I
    write a lot of fantasy, and a while back I was trying to translate a
    poem one of my characters had written in his native language --
    and I was suddenly struck by the fact that English has no word for
    "fat" that is inherently *flattering*. The pattern goes
    "skinny[negative]" is to "thin[neutral]" is to "slender[positive]" but
    for "fat" it's hard to find even a neutral term that isn't shaded by
    America's general loathing of the average-to-heavy range of human
    size. Is it any wonder, then, that we see the kind of body-image
    problems we do?

    > Agreed. But, from my experience with comparative literature, when
    > writings are clearly gendered, they are so by virtue of their themes
    > and worldview, as you put it, and not necessarily or consistently
    > because of any "feminine" idiosyncrasies in language, style or
    > literary technique.

    In my experience, I see that most of the difference falls on
    theme and worldview -- but those also color the language and
    literary technique used. Women seem particularly fond of the
    "epistolary" form (a story presented as a letter or series of letters
    exchanged between two characters), for instance. I've seen more
    of those written by and for women than men. In science fiction
    particularly, women seem more intrigued with characters' feelings
    and men by characters' actions -- in fact, the rise of "sociological"
    SF (concerned with the cultural and personal implications of
    technology or other plot motifs) as well as hard SF (concerned with
    the technology or events themselves) is due in large part to the
    entry of female writers into the field. The cool thing is that today,
    we have writers of *both* genders who excel in *both* styles, which
    makes for much richer reading material.

       Blessings,
       Elizabeth

    > Thanks for giving me the chance to think aloud! I think we're more or
    > less in agreement here...
    >
    > Salwa
    >


    ****************

    Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:15:11 EDT
    From:   Jennifer Vasil
    Subject:  Re: Since so many asked....

    It's interesting you bring up the idea of feelings and actions in women's and
    men's fiction. This made me think of something I heard when I was at a
    literary conference recently, attending a panel of women authors discussing
    erotic (or quasi-erotic) fiction they (and others) had written. When asked
    the difference between men's and women's erotic fantasy, Mary Gordon (one of
    the panelists) commented that men's fantasy tends to consist of static images
    (hence, the predominance of magazines like Penthouse and Playboy), while
    women's tends to be narrative in nature. So, she argued, your standard porn
    flick that has no intrinsically romantic storyline will most likely be
    enjoyed by men, while women tend toward movies like "Henry and June" or "The
    Unbearable Lightness of Being." 

    The idea of emotion, of narrative, linked with "feminine" is something that
    seems to flow through a lot of feminist writing, especially the work of Carol
    Gilligan, though I'm not sure I like its implications. There's the idea that
    if you somehow don't fit the mold of women as sensitive, feeling, caring,
    etc., etc., you are somehow immasculated. This has always been my stumbling
    block with most feminist writing - unlike standard literary theory, as a
    woman, I feel somehow expected to agree wholeheartedly with feminist theory,
    and I don't completely. When a woman disagrees with feminist theory, she's
    usually labelled immasculated or some other term that signifies being under
    the patriarchal thumb, and that just doesn't sit well with me. One of my
    professors put it best, I think - you can choose to be a (Marxist, New
    Critic, Structuralist, etc.), but you can't choose to be a woman. This, I
    think, is what makes this terrain so difficult for me (but obviously not so
    difficult that I'm not going to spend the next several months devoting my
    life to it!).

    Cheers,
    Jen

    In a message dated 4/15/2001 11:18:57 AM Central Daylight Time,
    ysabet@WORTHLINK.NET writes:

  • In my experience, I see that most of the difference falls on
  • theme and worldview -- but those also color the language and
  • literary technique used. [[snip]]

    ****************

    Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:33:54 EDT
    From:   Jennifer Vasil
    Subject:  Re: Since so many asked....

    In a message dated 4/14/2001 2:20:30 PM Central Daylight Time,
    sghaly@SHARJAH.AC.AE writes:

  • But to keep harping on this idea of writing with the body, the only
  • way women know how ... well, not very convincing, for me at least.

    True, it does tend to get redundant after a while, and it does seem like it
    could, as you say, straightjacket one into a method of writing that precludes
    any other form. Yet, I think the idea behind writing with the body is
    something much more psychological than even the French feminists will admit. 
    (Gross generalization coming...) Women tend to have more warped relationships
    with their bodies than men, hence the billions of dollars that are poured
    annually into the diet and exercise industry. So by writing (with) the body,
    these authors (in theory, at least) can reclaim what has been processed,
    packaged, and publicized by the media into something far more personal,
    intimate, and profound. This doesn't always happen, and in the case of the
    French feminists, it may be a stretch to say this is the overriding
    psychology behind their work; but I know when I write poetry and paint
    (especially then), I tend to look for ways to inscribe myself in the work
    physically, whether by using my hands and fingers as a paintbrush, or by
    forming myself in words within the text of a poem.

  • I agree with you 100%. But, the French feminists don't. They (along with
  • Kristeva, btw) argue with a straight face that women have been banished from
  • the realm of the symbolic due to specific biological characteristics.
  • However, all isn't lost, because they can always fall back on the
  • pre-symbolic, the source of poetic impulse and artistic creativity. If
  • women want to be successful writers, they should nurture "le parler femme,"
  • this "writing with the body." I don't know about you, but I find this a
  • Pandora's box. Jen is right, there is something admirable about unsettling
  • and deconstructing patriarchal linguistic structures and practices. And
  • working with a sexist language like French, these feminists have quite a
  • battle ahead of them. But, must we attack "male" modes of discourse (if
  • there is such a thing!) by arguing that we, women, are "unique" in the way
  • we wield language?! Wouldn't we be strait-jacketing ourselves by accepting
  • such a contention?


    Yeah, I'm not sure I buy Kristeva on that, either. I mean, just one look to
    Jung and the feminists that spring from his school (yes, there are a few),
    and one can find ample feminine archetypes outside the standard pantheon of
    goddesses and she-devils. I think the point is that "feminine" _is_ much
    more symbolic than "masculine," and I'll point to my previous post about
    women's erotica as case in point. I mean, there's nothing symbolic in a
    Playboy spread. It's all right there, plain as day. Women's narrative
    tendencies by nature tend toward the symbolic. But, I think the French
    feminists argue that these archetypes, symbols, etc. are fashioned by a
    masculine discourse, so that by moving into the pre-symbolic stage, women can
    write from the dark terrain that is unavailable to men (Elaine Showalter
    writes much more eloquently about this).

    I also agree that ecriture feminine may not be the way to go to establish a
    feminine voice in academe, but so far, they're the only folks who have really
    attempted to write "outside the box" in mainstream academics. So while I
    think we can look to them as a model and as a theory, the praxis should
    definitely be different.

    Cheers,
    Jen

    ****************

    Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:15:43 -0400
    From:   John Andrews
    Subject:  Re: Gender&Tonic

    Wyn...I think we're on the same page...I do agree with you completely, I think.
    The engines of bio-chemical processes are the core determinants in gender behavior
    - not social constructs. DNA triggers or hormonal animators, to say the least,
    are not socially dependant or functionally connected in some glutinous causality
    to the psyche...Perhaps, a primordial psyche soup existed as a first cause, though.

    Other than empirical evidence and modern extrapolation, how can any other
    conclusion be advanced about gender dynamics__I dunno, but your 'housecleaning'
    and other stuff you described does suggest cross-gendering might be fun!
    This could be an answer for men - the slobs that we are and yours truly,
    when it comes to cleaning house...

    Would be interested in what happened with your endometriosis experiment, BTW...

    The race question/answer may lie with Jung's prototypes and primordial memory
    strings he alludes to in his writings.

    Johnny

    ****************

    Date:   Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:46:23 EDT
    From:   Jennifer Vasil
    Subject:  Re: Gender&Tonic

    Johnny - I don't argue that hormonal changes and biological factors account
    for what constitutes sex. That's not in question. What is in question is
    the difference between sex and gender, the former being biological, and (at
    least our reaction to) the latter being generally understood to be socially
    constructed. The example of housework just proves the point, I'm afraid. 
    While the "nesting instinct" is a cute idea, it is a fairly Western notion
    that goes right along with the old patriarchal ideology. Any ornithologist
    can tell you that both male and female birds share nest building and tending
    duties, and some species of bird rely _solely_ on the male to care for the
    eggs and newly-hatched young (I mean the making and tending of the nest as
    well as sitting on the youngsters, not the primordial hunting here). 
    Likewise, in some South American and African cultures, it is the women who
    are the "hunters"/businesspeople/etc. while the men stay at home and tend the
    farm. Ah, you say, these are exceptions to the rule. Indeed, the exceptions
    go to prove that there is no rule one can follow when trying to establish sex
    or geder bound behavior. Most of the notions of what constitutes "feminine"
    work or speech or behavior as opposed to "masculine" forms of the above _are_
    culturally bound, and, hence, socially constructed, if not obviously so.

    Jen

    In a message dated 4/15/2001 6:16:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
    newsouth@GAMEWOOD.NET writes:

  • Wyn...I think we're on the same page...I do agree with you completely, I
  • think. The engines of bio-chemical processes are the core determinants in
    [[snip]]

    Onto Part 6


    Gender Page


    This page hosted by

    Get your own Free Home Page
    1