* Scenario User-Submitted Concepts *

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Friday, December 12, 2003
08:20 PM

Here oncepts continue with user-submitted topics.
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#13 Suffering	(new oncepts entry by Shadow)
I agree with Topaz and some of the others; having characters die in an RPG really helps the player to get in touch with the game. However, it only works when used in the right situations. For instance, in Final Fantasy VII when Aeris (at least I think that was her name) died it almost brought a tear to my eye. But, being the tough guy I am, I held strong ;). I'll admit that I've played a few games (amateur made or other) that killed off a main character and really ruined the overall game play, but the good RPG’s that suck you into the story-lines can utilize the "killing off a main character" technique with unbelievable success and power.
Topaz: Hi Shadow: Your topic is Suffering but the DEATH you are referring to in a RPG is suffering a little too quick and brief, isn't it ? However Cloud did suffer at the passing away of Aeris on the scene you mentioned, and the players did suffer at her loss. On the line of suffering though, I do remember a scene where the players "suffered" in Final Fantasy 7 when they were thrown into the hole of Heaven Below at the Golden Saucer. The fear of really being trapped unable to move to a new part of the game because you did something wrong was very much there as was the desperation and frustration in traveling many maps only to get lost in the desert. That was some real suffering. Putting the player in a place where they cannot seem to escape. No player enjoys that feeling, yet .. I think it was a good thing in FF7 to show the underworld of the sparkling Golden Saucer not quite so "Golden" on it's underside..
Kami: Lets face it, sugar-coated fairytale lands are DULL. Suffering should always be an integral part of the world you aim to create. Death, pain, war, destruction... all add to an effect of, "This world has more depth". It's something a writer always focuses on, because it makes the world more real and vivid, people are dying, suffering, and sometimes you SHOULD be powerless to stop it. Rather like in real life, we are all fascinated somewhat by the plight of others. If you can introduce some real issues into the game, then that will make the player stop and think. Which is always a good thing. Have fun!
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#14 You Call This A Setting???	(new oncepts entry by DarkLink)
Many RPGs have good settings and many have horrible settings in which you'd want to blast into oblivion. List a game with a great setting and why and list a game with a horrible setting and why. Also list a setting that you would most like to see in an RPG.
Topaz: Hi DarkLink: So you are referring to some of the features we see in games that allow you to change the frames, background color for text, and in some cases like Books Of Ys you can change the typeface ? This reminds me of Wild Arms for the PSX, which was a great game but did anyone notice some of the strange configuration options that there were ? Not only could you change the frames but it had a built in icon-editor so you could doodle your own icons for use as commands ! Who spent any time to do that ? Some of the options I would like to see in RPGs are: (1) Typeface - at least 2 choices (2) Frame Type - at least 8 choices (3) Cursor Memory - it remembers what you last selected (4) Auto Placement - for complex elements like learning skills, etc. (5) Speed of action combat - does it progress slow, medium, or fast (6) Select AUTO or MANUAL for companions in combat While it's not a RPG I thought it was a great option in Dead Or Alive for the PSX to have "breast bouncing" on or off, and yes, that was listed in the configuration !
Kami: I think the point was "settings" as in, places. My fave setting in an RPG ever? That would have to be Nibelheim, FF7. You know it's all an act from the new residents... but you are curious to why and how Cloud and Tifa escaped. It's a quite morbid effect, but fascinating. Worst? Booby prize goes to Alundra 2, the Flying Machine. Compared in size with the Whale Machine, it's too small, too short and doesn't add to the game as a whole. It's a pointless introduction because theres nothing you learn there that couldn't be introduced in the next stages of the game. It leads to the whale scene, but you could easily have Flint falling from the machine, losing his grip. It was a really pointless intro to the game IMO. It could have done without it. (And I REALLY wanted to hurt those pirates too. So annoying, again, never a good start to hate someone just by the way they speak... Have fun!
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#15 Smart Combat	(new oncepts entry by )
Only recently have I found that some RPGs base random encounter combat's difficulty entirely upon the actual level of the player(s) at that time. While this would simplify Worldbuilding immensely, it could take away a very personal sense of design the Worldbuilder carefully kittered out for their game. what are some of your ideas, pros and cons, on Random Encounters and whether you or for or against the computer deciding which critters to throw against the player based upon their level, or you would like to leave it up to the Worldbuilder where they might have to work a bit at getting all of the map sections of random-encounter flags set properly ?
Houwzer: Im defenently for the random encounter idea. I see one problem with this: a person could just stay in one area just fighting till they decide to move on. They could then make boss battles very easy if they stay longer than intended in a random battle area. Maby if we could use a random battle area and have a list of monsters we could choose to have a chance of apearing to prevent this.
TrueBladeMaster: Well I myself wouldn't like it I prefer to design the monsters and all the stats and strenghs and weaknesses.
Topaz: Greets Houwzer and TrueBladeMaster: Yes. There are many different paths this can take. I have long considered random encounters and have realized that early RPGs like Final Fantasy on the NES used to base the strength of the attackers upon the distance the player was from "home" (the first castle). While i can make it so there are "painted" regions of map that determine the difficulty upon a random encounter, this would be a lot of work for the Worldbuilder to set-up and fill in regions based upon their strengths and weaknesses in levels upon where the player is traveling on an outside map or dungeon floor. Another random encounter technique like Dragon Warrior 1 used was bridges that the player had to cross to get to the next difficulty level to determine the strength of random encounters.. This would definitely be complex and I don't think Worldbuilders would want to use this technique either. I guess it comes down to, isn't there a way for a Worldbuilder to build a world with varied random encounters that are intelligently placed by the system itself without their having to do it manually themselves ? Regarding building your own TrueBladeMaster, how do you feel the best way to go about allowing the Worldbuilder to "build" their own random encounter fields where it is both effective and simple to do, not for me the programmer, but simple for the Worldbuilder to design and implement ?
Sayonaran Avon: I never liked random encounters. Besides, you can stay in one area to level up and then whack on the boss, without keeling over (insert Dark Stone). If you want to know how to destroy that boss, you should let them whack you a bit, so you know what's coming the next time you try it again (with better equipment and such). Personally I have a training room to level up in and some baddies that want to smack you, but the training room comes at a cost, howbeit: The higher the level, the more you pay. Makes sense, eh? so you must truck out there, whether you like it or not! hehehe <evil grin> Just my thoughts...
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#16 Good vs. Evil ?	(new oncepts entry by Kami)
OK, my two cents. How would you distinguish good from evil? Is it even relevant to the game? And at what point does someone become evil, and not a victim of circumstance? (Sephiroth being a classic example of someone driven to terrible deeds by the actions of others) And how does the hero justify his actions? Is it for selfish reasons, or for the greater good? And again, how would you distinguish the two? A lot of games rely heavily on the bad guy being pure evil, with no reason. Is this a good thing, or should enemies always have an alterior motive, something to them which drives them on other than world conquest/destruction? Why do they do the things they do? Your comments.
Topaz: Hi Kami. First off, thanks B I G for the very nice contributions to all of the oncepts that you participated in ! This is an interesting topic you have ! I have always been fascinated at the complex set of elements that come into play that make someone "bad" in a RPG or "good" as the case might be. It's no longer just the hero with the white hat but the hero could be the most unlikely of prospects. If/when I ever get around to writing "What Color Is The Sun" for current , I wanted to really have a twist on things where everything the hero did that he thought was truly gallant and heroic (as all RPGs did it) somehow turned out to be wrong (like slaying the dragon and rescuing the princess was actually the sister coming to visit her brother who was transformed into a dragon and she was bringing the elixir to heal him. Well you just lopped off his head so you didn't earn any points with her - don't worry, the brother comes back later, I don't really like to kill off NPCs or the player) and other notions like this, where the real purpose of the quest is not found until the very end and then it is found to be the simplest of principles and reasons; so much so that if the player has really gotten involved and interested in all of the characters they have met, they get a real rush of adrenaline. Evil in the game I just wanted to be downright misled and confusing to the player. Real bunglers, the bad guys really don't have a clue what or why they are doing something but don't like to feel left out of a group and are really miffed that they can't join the "good" group so, they have to be bad. It would be funny, but it may be a direct break-away from common RPG themes as well where bad guys were just "evil" because there had to be an antagonizer in the story. Philosphically speaking, I believe evil is just misguided good that was tormented by enough bad things to happen into their lives (quite possibly a direct test of their virtuosity) that they feel the reason to lash out at others, even if innocent ones or those people unknown. I wanted to stress this in my story. The great dark evil emperor or whatever he/she might be, was not always like this. While it makes an interesting story even today with concepts of the hero fighting a great nameless evil for no good reason, or maybe all good reasons (which could be the problem), we fail to see how the player is "mending" not just the world forever caught between the balance of eternal peril and destruction (as all RPG worlds seem to be), but also of the "evil" guys and gals ways. We must get beyond the "dark evil one appeared from nowhere and started spitting fire at everyone" stuff like that. Back to RPGs, Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII was very much evil however, and Squaresoft did an excellent job of portraying it well. While he was undeniably evil, he had many of the traits of an alluring gentleman that led so many women and followers to ruin much like a vampire. The story of good vs. evil ? One must analyze why "good" is doing something to begin with. While it is all good and well to say that they are doing good "cause it feels good" well there is no denying that, it's called compassion. But a good RPG story in time may go beyond this and explore the psyche on both sides of the coin. We all want to "feel good" in a RPG by helping others, but imagine one that has a direct reason and likable principles for doing so, and may even, if just for an instant, allow us to see with clear eyes and conscience why the evil in the story IS evil and perhaps feel pity or understanding for him/her/it. It adds that much more to the story and encourages the player to do "good" but with new resolve and new knowledge. Not just random acts of kindness, though these are always beneficial.
Kami: Not at all Topaz. I cruise on by here once in a while, had to say something eventually! I know what you mean, Squaresoft did do a fantastic job with Sephiroth. Very few bad guys do you ever either feel empathy for, or respect. Yet Sephiroth is so messed up, so consumed with delusions of power, and all under a very gentle look. Sephiroth is probably one of those bad guys that we will never forget, and if this FF7 remake/sequal (Whatever it is, we know it's coming) keeps Sephy in there and expands on the character, Sephiroth could be the all-time best bad guy ever created. Of course, good guys are difficult, I like the reluctant hero. A hero who really DOESN'T want to get involved, but ends up being the leader. But of course, cliche can be good - 8bit theater anyone? :)
Sayonaran Avon: It doesn't make sense to have the super good guy and the super bad guy just THERE to tear at each other's throats! Then you plot some other folks to flesh it out and that turns into a super-bad-you-know-it's-ugly kind of game! I'd rather find out WHY that guy turned evil instead of just thinking one day:"Hmm, being good sucks. I have too many friends and too little money. Maybe I should whack some folks just to make them PO'd with me and I jack them up for the hell of it." Be for real! Oh, and don't get me started on this whole evil thing comes from the sky/ground/ocean and starts breathing fire/flinging weapons/possessing folks just because. I hate that!!! And why is that guy good? Is his heart pure gold? Is he trying to impress the pretty girls? Sometimes I wonder why the fool trucks out there to slay evil everyday. So, please, make me some definitions on why there's a good v. evil in the first place and don't make a hack job!!! <rants some more> I'd give more of my not-so-humble opinion, but it's hard to when your blood is boiling!
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#17 Minigames	(new oncepts entry by Clueless3)
Mini games make an exellent addition to RPG's (at least in my opinion) What's the best RPG mini game you've played?
Topaz: Hi Clueless3, I think it would be Final Fantasy 7 for me. While there were some mini-games in other RPGs such as Wild Arms and Legend of Zelda, they weren't very well done. But I did like the crane machine in Legend of Zelda. Hopefully in time either and/or will have the ability for Worldbuilders to design mini-games.
Sayanoran Avon: Ya, I still poke in here now and then. Now, onto my humble mublings and other comments! Mini-games can be a fine asset to a RPG, only if it's WELL WRITTEN! What I mean by that is if they're a part of the whole darned story in the first place. The only ones I could stand were FF7 and Wild Arms 2 & 3. I almost tore my hair out with Legend of Zelda (the N64 version) and Ever Grace. Those were alright but don't get me started on Light Crusader... I mean, barrels and bombs, and clocks?! Who knew an evil mage had time to set up these exploding barrels and bombs all wired to a granfather clock AND had them magically reset after you solved the stupid puzzle only to retrace your steps to die??! <screams> Please, if you love mini games/puzzles, don't make me have to hunt you down and slap you with a head of tuna! (when you're writing your RPG for me to tinker on, of course!) Enough of my ranting. Now... onto the code! Zoom!
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#18 Over The Top ?	(new oncepts entry by Kami)
Second Concepts poser, for all who can bear to listen again. At what point do you feel an RPG has gone TOO far trying to be "different". My comments come as Zelda: Wind Waker has been a fantastic exampleof how a relatively good series can really, truly and spectacularly go down the pan in one go. Too short, too simple, and those graphics... compared to the cleaning job they did on OoT on the bonus disc, Wind Waker looks positively UGLY! And then theres Alundra 2 (Far too much emphasis on the good guy being a bad guy but no-one has the idea of actually dobbing him in and cashing in the reward), and Lufia Gaiden (Which USED to be the best Final Fantasy alternative out there. Now it's gone too far in trying to be mainstream and gone more Final Fantasy in nature. Shame.) Or IS it possible to go too far? Maybe some of you will disagree and say that daring to be different has it's risks. But why, in all honesty, when you have a good thing going, would you try and cater for a broader market? Thereby disappointing fans of the originals, or destroying what was once a great concept now to be ruined by some shoddy "Mass Appeal" material? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." - why have developers in general lost this ideal?
Topaz: Hi Kami: Another interesting topic, Thank You ! I miss some of the "hooks" earlier RPGs had, either with sexy damsels in dis-dress to rescue, the Great Dragon, etc. It does seem like we live in an age where in some RPGs we say ??huh?? Why the -flip- did they write this in here !? I think some of the newest RPGs out there are either WAY too hard to play or operate on such flimsy and uninteresting principles as not to keep our interest. Is it up to us the programmers and Worldbuilders to build a better RPG, one that has incredible replay value, is "warm and cozy" with classic old stories and plots we never get tired of, and has a high reward factor both in the story and delights/mischief the player can get into. This is one of the reasons a lot of us play RPGs, to be entertained, amused, amazed, and sometimes (if it's done correctly and there is a solution to the problem room or game area) confused.
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#19 Voice Acting: Enhancing or Detracting ?	(new oncepts entry by Sayanoran Avon)
A lot of new games out there now use voice acting. You can't seem to 'create' your own voice for your hero when you read the text anymore. (Call me old school, but it's fun and imagineative in my opinion). Now some still have text even though the people are talking. Choose one! Say, "Way Of The Samurai" was a pretty good game. No one talked, and you had to read the cartoon-like bubbles on what was being said. The only thing close to voice acting was the various grunts, gasps, and wheezes of the characters who were doing the talking. Now that's a good thing. One that's really bad is Ever Grace. You have pages and pages of text to read, yet the developers somehow grabbed some high school kids to read these lines, and they skipped a paragraph to make it worse! I'm talking pages of text that you have to sit through, just to know what's going on! That's terrible right there. They should have left it ala FF7, where characters made motions and nothing more. That's my gripe, and my question to you lovely people out there is this: does voice acting actually enhance or detract from the actual game play? I say it ruins it completely, escpecially if you have to read what they are saying right after! <grumble, grumble>
Topaz: Hi Spinner: I haven't played Way Of The Samurai or Ever Grace so I'm not entirely sure I follow you. Are you referring to the vocal verbalization like is done in Lunar Silver Star for the PSX ? When the words are actually spoken through the speakers instead of just text on the screen, I think the actors have to be carefully chosen, especially if the game is a saga and is expected to last a long time. I never really liked Nash as the actor in this RPG but Luna, Alex, and Nall, the winged cat were very well done. Voice acting. It takes precious space on a CD and leads the player to believe the quest might be smaller because of this whereas long dialogues with no speaking through the speakers like Legend of Mana for the PSX or any of the RPGs for the SNES lead you to believe a long and rich RPG full of dialogue, not space taken in the game from sound files of speech alone. If it is to be done, the voice actors need to be chosen carefully. Like all good RPGs, we want to feel a fondness for our characters in all of their situations. Perhaps lending a voice may add to the adventure element for those just being introduced to the world of RPGs, but for us old-school veterans it may detract from it. What are your views, reader ?
Jed: In a limitless memory world(maybe one day) I would like to have games that consist of speech. Perhaps for everyone apart from the main character, that way you still have the freedom of personalising yourself in the game while still meeting other people, you can't choose their voices in real life. A quirky voice might provide some humour, a strong voice can promote authority, something that can add weight to the characters in the storyline. I admit I have my own fetish on this subject. I find that the fantasy atmosphere is created well if the characters speak in a different language, while English subtitles run below. Just me, though.
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#20 Sequels & Prequels:	(new oncepts entry by Jed)
Sometimes is a director's genius, other times it's plain annoying. When you complete a game do you see it as being told to spend more money to buy the sequel? Or do you recognise the potential of extending the storyline ? Great games promise sequels but often lead to disappointment. What great sequels do you remember ? Then there's the prequel adaptation. Where the next episode is set before in time to explain how things got that way. Mainly, how do feel about ending your game so that that it leaves the plot open for future extension ? PS: George Lucas rules with the Star Wars series !
Topaz: Hi Jed: With all the hype of trying to make money in today's world, I was more than a little disappointed to see the To Be Continued for the ending of Matrix 2 Reloaded. Today's RPGs had better not try such a stunt. I remember the ending to Final Fantasy 7 and was impressed. Here they are obviously showing that the story can be continued but they don't put the dreaded words on the screen To Be Continued, instead showing an ending that is somehow unrelated to and yet also part of the story you just played. It is then that I felt it was the potential of extending the storyline, and not just another moneymaking scheme. What are your views, reader ?
Sayanoran Avon: I hate sequels! They don't go together with the original story, specially if it's based off the original story [insert Robocop trilogy]. Don't get me started on the prequel department. Who cares what created this 100 or maybe 1000 (or 2000) years ago??! Does it matter, really?! Game wise, I think it's cool to include a full universe that's not a true sequel per se, (say FF series or Wild Arms) but things can go a bit off in the sequel department (insert Strider, Flashback, or Zero Tolerence for Genesis.) When I write 'em, at least there's a cliffhanger that gets you wrapped into it in the first place to leave your squirming in your chair with itchy fingers trying to get to the next game. <sly grin> In my not-so-humble opinion, I say that if you got something great, only create the next big thing if the general public is drooling for it, not for the money! Ya, so I'd rather be poor than to PO my adoring public! So there!
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* OPEN TOPIC *

Now that you've had a chance to share some of your own very good ideas and opinions on

oncepts, you are now given the chance to open a Topic of your own. At this time there is no limit to the number listed but in the future, they may be removed if they are not showing strong interest in the form of comments, inquiries, and answers posed and posted by others.

What topic or topics would you like to talk about regarding modern RPGs and the good RPGMaker for the future which would either simplify their creation and/or enhance gameplay ?

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