Babble v1 136

babble-digest Thursday, January 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 136

In this issue:
stockholders cheer as standards die
just when you thought it was safe to
remove me please
What fonts do I have?
Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
Button font?
that javascript back button
Re: what direction?
Re: that javascript back button
Re: what direction? (monopoly)
What direction, again?
Re: what direction
Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
Re: what direction?
Would it be appropriate to post a job position?
Re: What direction, again?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:23:23 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: stockholders cheer as standards die

In message <34BC68E6.CE46EF7@calebfuller.com>, Caleb Fuller
<email@calebfuller.com> writes
>Paul Frost wrote:
>>...and i'm trapped in an evil mac to NT situation right now.
>
>I think this is a mistyping. Shouldn't it be 'a Mac to evil NT situation.' ;-)
>
>>such a shame then, that both netscape and ms perceive that it's in their best
>>corporate interests to pursue their current competing products policy. it's
>>beyond me sometimes
>
>Likewise. As I have said before, I am fed up with the whole browser situation.
>The sad thing is that there is easily room for multiple browsers in the market
>(at LEAST two) but only as long as they all support a common standard. This
>competing and incompatible standards thing going on at the moment can only
>result in the eventual domination of one browser. Currently, one browser is
>being given away free as the default browser on both major computing platforms
>(PC/MAC). TIP: This probably won't be the one that dies....
>
>Interesting question - would MS prefer you to use Netscape under Windows, or
>IE on a Mac?
>
>Caleb Fuller
>'Some people believe, and some people know' - Ben Harper
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the sentence should read evil "mac to NT" situation. the situation is evil, not
the mac (god forbid).

MS like both i think: it gets to pretend it's doing innovative/useful work (mac
ops) whilst minting fresh dollars from win.

and we get to play pingpong ball while they play god.

it can be more than a little frustrating sometimes.

and my isp has screwed up the mail. just thought i'd vent my spleen a bit. oh,
your tip be right (i've a feeling in 5 years time we'll be designing on wintel)

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:49:32 +0000
From: Zaid Hassan <zaid@anthropic.com>
Subject: just when you thought it was safe to

Try:

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:59:28 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water

happy greets all

i'm not even gonna begin to justify 4 posts in a day. just don't. OK.
as in an earlier post, i'm making a toolbar. and it needs a back button.
now, my
earlier problem was wisely resolved by the lovely Porter. Many thanks.

But now i have another problem. the javascript which is supposed to send
it back
doesn't work. not of my own making, though the guy who produced it swore
it
would. fine in ie but death in nn:

</form>

is thus the code.

any suggestions?

i've already signed away my first child, so it'll have to be undying
gratitute
in terms of rewards. i suppose i could always do some sorta deal with my
soul...

thanks
paul

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:25:10 +0100
From: emil.it@medieskolan.se (Emil Tavassoli)
Subject: remove me please

to many mails , i dont have time to read ém

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:35:52 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: What fonts do I have?

Hi all,

I've noticed a few people looking for a program to display the fonts
installed in their computers. I have written a small program (95 and NT
only - sorry Macs) to list the fonts, view them in different styles, sizes
and using font names or ABCD's.. or Quick Brown Foxes, or user defined
texts. You can even print the whole list or specified fonts.

There are hundreds of these around, but this one's by a fellow listee :-)

And it's a click away:

http://www.catapult.com.au/software/fontview.zip (398kB)

| Yalcin Yilmaz
| Catapult Design House
| yyilmaz@catapult.com.au
| http://www.catapult.com.au
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:04:43 +0100
From: "Patrick Pinchart" <pinchart@dupuis.be>
Subject: Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers

Hi!
I don't believe in these figures. Don't pay for that kind of reports,
they give a false idea of the web.
Practically, you could have a more real image of the browser war in
consulting the logs of the servers (some free counters make a summary of
the consultations of their sites).
Here are mine (based on 25383 users):
Netscape 1 : 1%
Netscape 2: 8%
Netscape 3: 39%
Netscape 4: 22%
Total for Netscape: 70%
Explorer 2: 1%
Explorer 3: 17%
Explorer 4: 11%
Total for Explorer: 29 %
Unknown or other : 1%

This is not a strict photography of the reality, but Netscape is still
the winner.
Patrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:38:15 +0100
From: matjaz@vizija.si (Matjaz Vrecar)
Subject: Button font?

hi !
THIS ONE IS REALLY URGENT !

can anyone help me please? I am going crazy... why the hell is the font on a button so strange?

http://banka.vizija.si/ebanking/krediti/rokovnik.htm

There's only one button so you should know what I am talking about. I've tried to change everything... font, height, everything :((( no success

I would just like to have a "normal" font on the button. Thanks

kesl
http://www.inetia.com/kesl --+-- ICQ uin: 1744829

inetia.com, interactive media agency
info@inetia.com, http://www.inetia.com
Vizija d.o.o., Ljubljanska 42, 3000 Celje, Slovenia
Tel.: +386 63 452100, Fax.: +386 63 451390
info@vizija.si, http://www.vizija.si
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:22:41 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: that javascript back button

hi all:
i got sent a private mail from Zaid Hassan (well done fair sir, you have my
undying respect) which seems to solve the problem of javascript back buttons
within frames which is a cross browser workaround.

thought i'd post it to list for anyone who hits the same difficulty in the
future.

i'm not sure why this works and the other <form> based solutions don't so don't
ask me. but it does, OK.

anyone wishing to test it out should visit http://www.phw.co.uk/test/new.html

the rest of the page needs tidying/testing/messing, be careful.

feedback is cool, as beck's <i>one foot in the grave</i>, my current **record of
the day**

remember kids, drinking isn't big or clever or funny but it sure beats sobriety.

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK

postscript addition: i'm doing a presentation to-morrow to a client on e-
commerce with a view to developing some stuff for them. i've checked out quite a
few nice example, but if ppl know of any killer egs./research online, my mailbox
will kiss you.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:42:14 +0100
From: "Flaquito" <dspring@rspring.ch>
Subject: Re: what direction?

Gary,

I share most of your hopes and worries about the Net and our little online
community in general, but I strongly do not agree on the issue of
monopolies:

<snip>
> I share Lance's view that Netscape will become but a memory in the future
- -
> and almost look forward to Microsoft taking over. Why? Well, let me
clarify
> it quickly before I'm slammed. I look forward to ANY company having a
> complete monopoly. Many embrace Java since it is cross-platform. If all
> computers were PCs running compatible software we would be happy, no? If
> all browsers parsed the information similarly and had the necessary
> plug-ins pre-installed we would be happy, if all monitors were the same
> size/resolution we would be happy.
</snip>

Monopolies are bad. Monopolies are evil. If all browsers were *one*
browser, evolution would be frozen. If all monitors were the same, they
would be 640*480*256.
Monopolies mean: every idea about how the Net is evolving and where it's
going has to pass Big Bill's desk and get an OK. I'd rather not experience
this...

I'm not a Microsoft basher, and I'm not a Netscape fan (at least as long
as they don't implement the top/leftmargin tags ; ) but a browser monopoly
would have a disasterous impact on the Net. Of course, it would bring
stability and it'd make our lifes as designers much easier, but it'd be
> Big Brother's Watching You! <
Welcome to the new world...

> Whatever the future holds. I hope to see you all there in the future.
> Realtime-streaming video-conferencing <g>..
Yeah. I like *that*.

Later
- - Daniel
dspring@rspring.ch

PS Sorry that clarifying your point didn't stop you from being slammed :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:08:21 -0800
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: that javascript back button

At 01:22 PM 1/15/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>hi all:
>i got sent a private mail from Zaid Hassan (well done fair sir, you have my
>undying respect) which seems to solve the problem of javascript back buttons
>within frames which is a cross browser workaround.
>
>thought i'd post it to list for anyone who hits the same difficulty in the
>future.

I like these little javascript gizmos, but my own rule of thumb is that if
it can be done at the server level, and the functionality is just as
valuable, then screw javascript. I like doing these "back" buttons with
PHP/FI - it uses the HTTP_REFERER variable passed on by the browser and
works with any browser on any platform, guaranteed.

I also shy away from javascript date/time stamps, as these can be done just
as well at the server level using server-side-includes, or, in our
company's case, a combination of SSI and the PHP submodule "gdlib," which
allows you to create gifs on the fly, directly on the server. We use this
for a coupon generator, which takes fields in a database and creates a
coupon graphic (much better for layout, graphical appearance, etc.) with
all the data contained within it.

I know that Adjacency (www.adj.com) uses lots of PHP in their sites; anyone
else? We're finding that PHP/FI is quickly replacing Perl for our primary
choice of CGI-type functions. PHP requires much less overhead than
resource-hungry perl scripts, can be contained within the HTML page itself
for easy organization, and has numerous other advantages of Perl, including
multiple levels of includes (you can include PHP commands within
already-parsed files.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:11:42 GMT
From: Jason Holland <jason@head-newmedia.com>
Subject: Re: what direction? (monopoly)

>> I share Lance's view that Netscape will become but a memory in the future
>> and almost look forward to Microsoft taking over. Why? Well, let me
>>clarify it quickly before I'm slammed. I look forward to ANY company having a
>> complete monopoly...

Think about it. No competition = no need to improve your products to such a
degree.

And after all, who says that the company that ends up with the monopoly has
the best products? If they don't have the premire items available on the
market (mentioning no names) then we ALL lose.

Jason Holland (Creative Director)
Head New Media 444 Brixton Road London
Tel: +44(0)171 737 7579 Fax: +44 (0)171 737 7971
http://www.head-newmedia.com http://www.head-space.com/Jay

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:31:57 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <lance@dbtinc.com>
Subject: What direction, again?

Caleb Fuller shouted out:

>More excellent philosophic musings from Lance Arthur:

Yes, give Lance a soapbox and off he goes. What a maroon.

> Until some form of high speed cable becomes standard (not just popular,
> but a dominant standard) things like streaming video and true multimedia
> "will remain but a dream, a fleeting illusion, to be pursued, but never
> attained". (10 bonus points if you know who I am quoting here.) I don't

Merlin, regarding the fall of Camelot?
Cher, at Sonny's funeral regarding the Sonny & Cher reunion tour?
Janet Reno, regarding winning the DOJ vs. Microsoft suit?
David Siegel, regarding the universal use of the single-pixel GIF trick?
Bill Gates, regarding becoming Emporer of the Earth?
Steve Jobs, regarding the resurrection of Apple?

>Why does everyone seem to want to compare the web to TV?

People compare the Web to everything in order to try to define it as
something more than a collection of disparate networks operating more or
less in unison to share data using a graphical user interface. We try to
spiritualize it, familiarize it, catagorize it. "It's like a book with a
billion pages!" "It's like a library with a billion books!" "It's like
television with a billion channels!" The TV metaphor probably is the
most popular because it appears on a screen and because the cable
companies and Mssr. Gates wants you to think of it like TV. Also, the
Next Big Push will be Interactive Television (remember that from the
70's, kids? All I want is HDTV and they keep trying to give me Super
PBS!) where the links appear inside your TV and you click them with your
remote to swim deeper into the waters about that news story or that
product. TVs are melding with PCs. Either PCs are getting TV
capabilities or TVs are getting PC capabilities, but either way the Web
will be shoved at you on top of the TV cable signal and they'll operate
together, subsuming Web As Medium into Web As TVGuide. This is their
vision. I have seen it. It tastes bad.

>As an example of this, check out www.bobmarley.com. Now imagine if every
>topic you could ever want information on had a site like this...or
>several sites.

Again, this ties in *exactly* to the TV/Web vision. The site itself is a
reference point to something else. You see a blurb on Reggae music on
MSNBC,they provide a list of link, one of them is that one. You go read
it as Brian Williams yammers on in a little window. But you're still
watching TV (in your mind), you're not surfing the Web. You go look at
something, you leave it. You don't explore unless you're invited to or
told to by the TV teet. The Web is even more of a glossy brochure than
it was before. It is incidental to other media.

>Yes, but if the web becomes pervasive enough to compete with TV, it will
>also be pervasive enough to compete with print. If bandwidth is
>sufficient to transmit full motion video, it is fast enough to provide
>instant access to other pages.

Only if I can hold it in my hand and look at it while seated between two
people in Coach on my way from Boston to L.A. Only if it costs $2.95 at
a Webstore in the terminal. Only if I can fold it up and stick it easily
under the seat. Only if I don't have to worry about it. Do you worry
about losing your issue of Time Magazine? Your Anne Rice paperback? No,
you do not. The Web may be compared to print, but the hardware issues
are vastly different. And I don't have to worry about batteries or plug
in my newspaper.

The reason most people aren't on the Web has nothing to do with
pornography fears or loss of privacy fears or technology-phobias. It's
because you need a computer that costs, at minimum, $1000. And that's
for a low-end desktop. The challenge is not about designing the ultimate
interface with amazingly intuitive navigation in order to get more
people on the Web, nor is it about making it less confusing or more
condensed. The challenge is making it affordable.

Lance
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:54:05 +0100
From: "Armand Dijcks" <armand.dijcks@compaq.com>
Subject: Re: what direction

Get ready for some more indepth stuff on the future of the web and
web-design:

<PHILOSOPHY future = _chaos>
You could look at the web as a medium for exchanging ideas and information.
However, unlike a lot of other media, it's very hard to get total control of
how information that you put in at one end, is going to come out at the
other end. This frustrates designers, because it's their job to get the
message across properly. The question here is not so much why the web is the
way it is, but how we are going to deal with this chaos. As more advanced
interfaces for information transfer become available (virtual reality etc.)
the number of different formats and standards we have to deal with will even
increase. Take a look at the Tangible Media Group's site
(www.media.mit.edu/groups/tangible/) to see what interfaces could look like
in the future, and hopefully you'll see what I mean (excellent design by
Andrew Hsu btw).
In my humble opninion, the most important skill of a web-designer is not to
produce fancy images or state-of-the-art javascripts (although it helps a
lot if you're good at that). It's the ability to be able to find a way to
get your message through to other people in spite of this chaos.
While I was thinking of this, the following idea occurred to me: imagine a
situation where everything was standardized, you would have unlimited
bandwith, streaming 3D virtual reality video, high quality audio and an
infinite number of colors to use. What would your ultimate site look like?
To be honest, designing for such a medium would be my worst nightmare,
because you wouldn't know where to start as a designer because there are
just too many options...
</PHILOSOPHY>

Hope this wasn't to deep

Armand

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:00:39 +1100
From: Richard McLean <vorple@n130.aone.net.au>
Subject: Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers

Ummm...does it really matter that much who has more of the market ?

Can't we just say it's close enough to 50/50 to keep designing for both ?
All you can really get from market share statistics is the percentage of
surfers (ie clients, customers, etc) that you are losing by only designing
for one.

Does it really matter if its 20% or 60% ?

kind regards,
Richard McLean

Life would be so much easier with a soundtrack.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:35:22 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers

At 02:00 AM 1/16/98 +1100, you wrote:
>Ummm...does it really matter that much who has more of the market ?

Yep.

>Can't we just say it's close enough to 50/50 to keep designing for both ?

Nope.

>All you can really get from market share statistics is the percentage of
>surfers (ie clients, customers, etc) that you are losing by only designing
>for one.

Yeah... hey... kind of important info, isn't it?

>Does it really matter if its 20% or 60% ?

Yep.

Ryan Ferguson
signacct@signweb.com

Visit SignWeb, your one-stop resource for the signage industry!
- ----------------------------------
* http://www.signweb.com *
- ----------------------------------
// Searchable Sign Database // Message Boards //
// Industry Resources // OEMs //
// Suppliers // Vendors //
// Hot Products // Net News //
// Trade Schools // More...

- --> Other great ST On-Line publications:
ScreenWeb... * http://www.screenweb.com *
VisualStore... * http://www.visualstore.com *
Big Picture... * http://www.bigpicture.net *

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:29:54 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: what direction?

Righty-ho all, have tried to reply to each individually, but have decided
that it's best to use the list.

<sigh>

Oh well, you were right Jeffrey, it seems that it is difficult to carry
this little charade any further. So now you have it. I embrace Adam Smith's
laissez-faire policies (plaguerised though they may have been) however I
must confess that I do not quiver with aniticipation at the thought of a
future with five competing browsers, all trying to out do one another with
the latest tag-fads. Perhaps the W3C will be able to assert itself - but I
have not been overly impressed with what they've done to lead the way so far.

</sigh>

A very chastened Gary <wink>.

>PS Sorry that clarifying your point didn't stop you from being slammed :-)
No worries, you should have read the others I received. It's been fun y'all
- - and have emerged bruised but so enlightened by the whole experience.

-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
- -----------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:51:51 -0500
From: Rick Harris <rharris@ceogroup.com>
Subject: Would it be appropriate to post a job position?

Greetings:

Would it be appropriate to advertise a job opening on this list or would I be hounded off the list?

Rick Harris
mailto:rharris@ceogroup.com
http://careers.theglobeandmail.com + http://www.careerclick.com
http://www.employmentnews.com + http://www.hitechcareer.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:02:04 -0500
From: Shelby <srogers@worldweb.net>
Subject: Re: What direction, again?

At 09:31 AM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Caleb Fuller shouted out:
>
>>More excellent philosophic musings from Lance Arthur:

See.....now I thought Lance was being really way too pessimistic.

And maybe I'm just a child of the 70s (even though I only remember '78-9, I
swear!), but I thought that we needed to stop thinking in terms of
Microsoft, Netscape and modems. I also thought that it would be good if we,
the people who are really helping to shape this medium, could try to make
our wildest dreams come true.

Then again, maybe I'm just a corporate tool. An amoeba crawling around in a
giant body of mega-corporations. I dunno.

shelby rogers/web diva/dc webgrrl/person.html

Whatever you can do or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now.
-Goethe
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End of babble-digest V1 #136
****************************

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