Babble v1 138

babble-digest Thursday, January 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 138

In this issue:
an article
Re: targeting a frame and name together
Subject: Re: what direction
random images with JS
Re: targeting a frame and name together
RE: Creating a hierarchy with JavaScipt
Re: MSIE vs Netscape/Flash plugin check/pillform Macromedia
Re: random images with JS
TECH: Re: random images with JS
Re: actual question.. duel...(hava-script)
"javascript gizmos"
javascript rollover images across frames?
Re: "javascript gizmos"
RankThis!
Interface design for advanced vs ignorant users

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:53:28 -0500
From: Shelby <srogers@worldweb.net>
Subject: an article

A lot of discussion has been had about capitalist society governing the
spread of the Internet, what is/who has a monopoly, the Microsoft thing, etc.

I say, Get Thee To Thine Local Library and pick up the January 12 edition
of The New Yorker.

The article is called The Force of an Idea, by John Cassidy (page 32).

The basic premise of the article is that the work of economist Brian Arthur
- -- work that was not accepted easily -- might just be right when it comes
to the economic models we need to use for the high tech industries. And
might explain the current Justice Dept. thing with Microsoft. Here's a
snippet for you:

"Arthur's paper argued that the underlying assumptions of the Chicago
School simply don't apply to large parts of the economy, especially in the
high-technology and communications industries. In these fast-growing
sectors, Arthur said, there is no guarantee that the market, left to its
own devices, will select the best products and maximize benefits to the
consumer. Instead, he maintained, inferior products merely because of
happenstance -- by being first to the store shelf, say -- and they can
remain in a dominant position for a long time. Small events, such as a
misleading marketing campaign, can be magnified into big changes in sales.
And some firms are likely to establish, through predatory tactics or mere
luck, lucrative and lasting monopolies, which stifle the very competition
that free-market advocates swear by. In those instances, government
intervention may be needed to restore competition."

He wrote the paper that expressed these ideas in December 1984.

Really, it's quite interesting. If, of course, you find economic theory
interesting, and wonder why the free market doesn't seem to be quite
working right...

shelby rogers/web diva/dc webgrrl/person.html

Whatever you can do or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now.
-Goethe
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:59:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: targeting a frame and name together

you append the "L" to the actual HREF... and use the # to seperate them.

have fun ;)

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Jim Bass wrote:

> I think I've made this work before, but now...
>
> I have a two frame page. The top frame (named a-z) has letters A-Z, with
> each letter linking to a single Topics page (named Topics) in the lower
> frame. The goal is to click on, say, L and have the Topics page scroll down
> to where the L topics begin.
>
> The code I am using is this: <A HREF="topics.htm " TARGET="topics"
> NAME="L">L</A>
>
> Unfortunately, the page doesn't scroll down to L. When I had the row of
> letters as part of the same page, it worked just fine. But putting it in a
> frame doesn't work.
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:10:41 +0100
From: Pascale Camus-Walter <camwal@cybercable.tm.fr>
Subject: Subject: Re: what direction

>Perhaps I was not clear enough, but the intention was to drive home (via
>repetition) that those designing & publishing for the web would like a
>standard.

Pard me, but I don't understand why you need a standard. When you publish
on paper, does it exist any standard especially if you want to publish your
stuff worldwide?
Sizes, papers, print,binding, etc.. nothing is standard and it's
very common to make different versions of one document. Don't you find that
netpublishing, even now with to or three different browsers, is very very
easier than all previous way of publishing info?
And doesn't this minimum jungle justify your work as a specialist
(think to your job,guys)? If everything is standardized, the design will be
standardized too, even an ugly standard, generally the smallest common
denominator, and nobody will need you anymore, you, champions of java,
html, etc...
Diversity is richness and provides work. Babble tower is better
than Babel tower, where everybody speaks the same uniform language.

Il est plus facile de rayer l'obscurité que la lumière. R. Juarroz
+---------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
artKfee: http://www.cybercable.fr/~camwal/
The Waltercolour studio: http://geocities.datacellar.net/SoHo/Gallery/5806/
apastras: http://web.superb.net/apastras
+------------------------------------+----------------------------------+

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:42:40 -0800
From: Jason Harris <jason@meniscusdesign.com>
Subject: random images with JS

Hopefully Porter, Joe, or one of our other resident JS experts can point
out a quick fix for this one: I am developing a test page at
http://www.meniscusdesign.com/test/randomimage.html to serve up a random
image from a JS array so that I can copy & paste this function into
pages that need it later. I've used Nick Heinle's random array script
from webcoder.com to accomplish the random parsing, but the only problem
is that it only works with TEXT objects, no matter how I've tinkered
with it it writes the url of the image not the image itself.
Is this because that's all the document.write function does? Or is there
something else at work here? Any help would be much appreciated.

Jason Harris
Meniscus Interactive
http://www.meniscusdesign.com
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:16:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Porter Glendinning <ag@cen.com>
Subject: Re: targeting a frame and name together

Jim,

If I understand correctly, you've got a long, alphabetized document with
named anchor tags scattered throughout in one frame, and another frame
containing a set of links to the anchors in the other document.

In this case you want your links to look like this:
<A HREF="topics.htm#L" TARGET="topics">L</A>

The NAME="L" belongs in the document "topics.htm" at the point you begin
the L-topics, and the "#L" on the end of the HREF makes the page jump to
that point.

As a general aside on questions posted to the list about specific
problems: If at all possible please reference a URL. If you have no way of
publishing the material to the Web, or if it's sensitive corporate
material, that's one thing. But it's much easier to diagnose a problem if
you can look at it directly.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Jim Bass wrote:
> I have a two frame page. The top frame (named a-z) has letters A-Z, with
> each letter linking to a single Topics page (named Topics) in the lower
> frame. The goal is to click on, say, L and have the Topics page scroll down
> to where the L topics begin.
>
> The code I am using is this: <A HREF="topics.htm " TARGET="topics"
> NAME="L">L</A>
>
> Unfortunately, the page doesn't scroll down to L.
[snip]
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:23:13 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Creating a hierarchy with JavaScipt

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but if you're referring
to a list like the explorer in Windows or the little rotating triangles in
Notes or on the Mac, I have a copy of an implementation using cookies.
The exact syntax is too long for a post (and besides, it's not mine; it's
an example from the Sams.net book _JavaScript Unleashed!_ by Richard
Wagner, et al), but the idea is to use a cookie to store the state of each
triangle or plus/minus as a 1 (expanded) or 0 (contracted). The
hierarchical list is in a separate frame from the rest of the content of
the site. When the user clicks one of the triangles or plus/minuses, the
link calls a function that re-writes the cookie with a 1 if the triangle
was already expanded, and a 0 if it was already closed.
Next the function invokes the go method of the history object like this:
history.go(0)

This reloads the page, which is generated by a series of write()
statements. When the page reloads, the cookie is read and the appropriate
code is written for each triangle (or plus/minus or whatever) according to
whether it is expanded (a '1' in the cookie) or contracted (a '0').
I haven't fussed with it in a year or so (it's on the CD-ROM for the book,
not the text, & I have misplaced the disc), but as I recall it worked fine
in both Navigator 3 and IE 3, and didn't screw up the history list.
I had something similar working using my own variables, stored on the
frameset page, rather than cookies, but it kept crashing my boss's 'puter
(he had a 486 IBM notebook with 8 MB of RAM, so it didn't surprise me) and
he made me kill it.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Developer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: TheGilster [SMTP:TheGilster@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 1998 2:38 PM
To: babble@highfive.com
Subject: Creating a hierarchy with JavaScipt

Dear list,
I would like to know how to create a hierarchy (specifically a drop
down
outline looking thing...) in JavaScript. Does anyone have any info on how
to
create this
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:04:26 +0100 (MET)
From: "Ric van Westhreenen (AlterNET Rotterdam)" <Ric@AlterNET.nl>
Subject: Re: MSIE vs Netscape/Flash plugin check/pillform Macromedia

Hi all,

Let's try to answer all questions in one time....

Hi Erik,

>I'm looking for a good source for a javascript that checks for the Flash
>plug-in and then directs the user to the appropriate html file.

Check out:

http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/how/subjects/javaplugs.html

There is only one complete answer....

________

>Subject: Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
>
Netscape is giving his stand-aline browser for free again. Furthermore they
have entered a joint-venture with Novell named Novonyx. Their partnership
will combine Netscape Enterprise Server and Novell Netware 5.0. Furthermore
Netscape has developed a JavaBean which will support XML in all of Netscape
products. So Andreessens firm isn't beaten yet.

_________

Hi Nathan,

>what's the easiest way, in Flash, to make that pill shape that's all over
>the Macromedia site? I can do it in PS4, just not in Freehand or Flash
>without making two circles of equal size and running a rectangle between them.

Yes, this is an option, but in Freehand you can double-click on the
squarebutton on the main toolbar. This will open up a menu in which you can
define the curve of the corners of your square. In Flash I'm not completely
sure, but I thought that there was an option for curved squares. But anyway
it's easier in Freehand.

>Is there a plug-in for Photoshop 4 to handle animated gifs, rather than
>crushing them? pardon my ignorance if there is already a well known fix,
>seems like i saw one somewhere...

If it's for making a sort of flipbook, just use layers. Copy your original
to a new layer, change it a little, copy it again to a new layer and so
forth. I believe there is an Action somewhere on the Internet.

>What art pads are good? everyone i know that uses one really likes it but,
>which one is the best?

The magazine Computer Arts had a round-up of pads a while back....AND the
same for big monitors. They were very fond of the Optiquest V773 priced at
425 English Pounds (it's an English mag...) So anyway, you can check it out
at www.viewsonic.com. Another one they liked (just a little bit more
expensive 546 pounds) is the Studioworks 78D, look at it at www.lge.co.kr.

About the art pads, they are called Graphics tablets, but anyway. There is
only one, that's the Wacom UltraPad A5 or when you want something bigger the
A4 or DrawingSlate A4 is a little bit cheaper than the Wacom A4.

http://www.wacom.de
http://www.calcomp.com

>Splitting up graphics and putting them back together in tables? Only
>checking in Netscape 4 or IE 3 or 4? Netscape 2 + 3 have a strange color
>thing that really highlights otherwise very subtle color differences...like
>if you indexed the image after it was split.

One advice, don't use subtle color differences. Folks with only 256 color
schemes won't see the subtle color difference anyway...

>will someone please tell all of the other people that when you resize an
>8-bit graphic, it gets chunky around the edges?

Try a little bit blur. Or anti-alias.

>
>I picture the near future like this:
>1 Bank, 1 Medical insurance, 1 language that keeps changing, 1 political
>party [already the case], 1 world market, 1 world economy, 1 type of
>computer, 1 unchangeable set of ideas, etc.

Come live in Holland....it's better than you think....

Ric...

Ric van Westhreenen
creative director

_____________ AlterNET Webarchitectuur Rotterdam______________

webdesign, webmarketing, webergonomics & Internet consultancy
tel: (+3110) 466 16 87/e-mail: info@AlterNET.nl/Ric@AlterNET.nl
P.O. Box 3585, NL-3003 AN Rotterdam, The Netherlands
___________________http://www.AlterNET.nl__________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 18:17:41 -0500
From: ryan carver <rcarver@graceland.edu>
Subject: Re: random images with JS

Jason Harris

>http://www.meniscusdesign.com/test/randomimage.html

you're only writing the string, you need to document.write the whole <img
src> tag...

you have :

document.write(image[rand(image.length)])

it should be:

document.write ('<img src=' + (image[rand(image.length)]) + '>');

hopefully I didn't make a stupid syntax mistake, but you get the idea...
:)

-ryan

<< ryan k. carver
<< rcarver@graceland.edu
<< www.graceland.edu/~rcarver

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:06:31 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: TECH: Re: random images with JS

Jason,

The reason all you're getting is the file name is because that's all the
document.write command is being told to write. You have this:

document.write(image[rand(image.length)])

Which takes the string stored in one of the image array slots, and writes
it. What you want is to embed this string in an IMG tag so that the call to
document.write() will write an image tag into the page, like this:

document.write('<IMG SRC="' + image[rand(image.length)] + '">')

This will result in a string, such as '<IMG SRC="../newphotos/4.jpg">'
being inserted into your page code wherever the call to document.write() is
placed.

By the way, if anyone out there ever wants to see inline code like this
that writes parts of the page, make sure you turn off JavaScript in your
browser before visiting the page. Otherwise, all you see when you do a
"View Source" is the text that the script printed, not the script itself.

Hope this helps. :)
- - Porter

At 02:42 PM 1/15/98 -0800, Jason Harris wrote:
>Hopefully Porter, Joe, or one of our other resident JS experts can point
>out a quick fix for this one: I am developing a test page at
>http://www.meniscusdesign.com/test/randomimage.html to serve up a random
>image from a JS array so that I can copy & paste this function into
>pages that need it later. I've used Nick Heinle's random array script
>from webcoder.com to accomplish the random parsing, but the only problem
>is that it only works with TEXT objects, no matter how I've tinkered
>with it it writes the url of the image not the image itself.
>Is this because that's all the document.write function does? Or is there
>something else at work here? Any help would be much appreciated.
[snip]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:44:16 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: actual question.. duel...(hava-script)

En Garde!

I've posted a solution at:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/statusBar/

It doesn't exactly use the images themselves as the status bar, but it
works. Let me know what you think.

It's actually a more complex issue than you'd think, involving protecting
resources and race conditions. D'oh! There goes my CompSci degree
overwhelming my DramArts degree again. Let's just say it's not a trivial
problem.

I tried to comment the code well, but if it doesn't make sense, let me know.

- - Porter

At 10:09 AM 1/15/98 -0800, jEsTeR wrote:
>heya all..
>
>i have been thinking about something. consider it a duel.
>
>the whole issue of preloading images via the 1x1 pixel idea taken to
>extreme would be to make a status bar out of the pictures loading themselves.
>
>dr ozone had a page that did something like this.. but not using the images
>i believe.
>
>we worked a lil on this at work... and couldnt get them to load them
>sequencially in order...
>
>http://www.mcic.net/~allen/tr2/test.html
>
>take a look if you are interested.. and let me know if there is already
>something like this laying around, or if you decide to bust it out real
quick.
>
>i dunno about any kind of soul offering of child giving. but, i'll think
>youre really cool, and you will get to see it in action on my page :D
>
>thanx again.
>
> -- jEsTeR
>
> www.sweetillusions.org
> == ================================= === ==
> jester@sweetillusions.org
> == ================================= === ==
> whatever is not nailed down is mine;
> what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:17:43 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: "javascript gizmos"

Ryan wrote:

"I like these little javascript gizmos, but my own rule of thumb is that
if it can be done at the server level, and the functionality is just as
valuable, then screw javascript."

- ---

The thing of it is though, that client-side JavaScript offers more
portability and sometimes easier functionality which becomes even more
important when there is no or little access to cgi-bins. I often deal
with clients who don't have 'golden access'.

You may be surprised how many people have no access or restricted
cgi-bin access, and not just the "little people" but also some
companies. Maybe not major corporations who have their own servers, but
lots of small-medium sized businesses with strict budgets as well.

Some, but not all, ISPs that don't allow full access (or charge lots
more for it) have 1-25 cgi scripts that their customers can
use/customize. Yeah we'd all like Fortune 500/Barron's 400 clients all
the time with big/unlimited budgets and powerhouse servers in their
basements, but...

- ---

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:52:07 -0800
From: Matthew Haughey <haughey@ssc.ucla.edu>
Subject: javascript rollover images across frames?

I'm wondering if I could get "informative" images to pop up in another
frame when user mouses over a toolbar link in another frame. I'm not sure
if I have ever seen it before, so I'm sure how to attempt the path syntax.
Can I put named windows in onmouseover arguements?

Matthew

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:51:15 -0800
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: "javascript gizmos"

At 09:17 PM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Ryan wrote:
>
>"I like these little javascript gizmos, but my own rule of thumb is that
>if it can be done at the server level, and the functionality is just as
>valuable, then screw javascript."

Upon which you responded:

>The thing of it is though, that client-side JavaScript offers more
>portability and sometimes easier functionality which becomes even more
>important when there is no or little access to cgi-bins. I often deal
>with clients who don't have 'golden access'.

I take it for granted - our clients host on our servers. We have T3
bandwidth, multiple T1 backups, and beefy servers. I admit, it's nice and
not everyone enjoys it. Since we charge a pretty average fee for hosting,
it's a rarity that one of our clients choose to host elsewhere. We build
lots of custom scripts in PHP and Perl - such as automated stock tickers
(which construct stock prices and build new graphics every 15 minutes of
the business day), date stamps, calendars, you name it.

I should note that hway (www.hway.net) is a great second choice if you
don't own your own server. They allow the use of SSI and lots of custom
scripts. Their prices are also very reasonable.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:28:24 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RankThis!

Yahoo! Internet Life magazine has rated RankThis! as its "most useful
web site for 1997"

RankThis! helps you determine your "ranking" for different keywords in
the major search sites. You can check your web site's keyword relevancy.

RankThis!
http://www.RankThis.com/

Yahoo! Internet Life
http://www.zdnet.com/yil/

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:08:41 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Interface design for advanced vs ignorant users

>i was visiting a webcafe a few days ago (a good way to view work on different
>machines/setups: and better coffee than the office slop), and two kids were
>sitting next to me, surfing the nba website.

>they knew what they were trying to get, and seemed one step ahead of the
>navigation system, positioning the cursor over menus before they'd arrived,
>speed reading pages/using edit/find. basically, a lot more sophisticated than
>the designers of the site in question.

Interesting. Knowing that such users exist restores my faith in the
ability of people to actually USE computers. Having worked on tech
support gives a very different picture of the average computer
user...you honestly wonder why these people are actually
bothering...they are NEVER going to get any productive use out of the
system. You feel that no matter how basic you make something, they are
never going to understand. The picture that builds up is a population of
semi-literate morons who cannot tell the difference between right and
left, miss the link between letters on the screen and their symbolic
relationship to language, can't follow basic directions (given by man or
machine) and use their CD-ROM as a coffee cup holder. It tends to dumb
down your design...
Hearing your story, I think maybe there are people who will get
worthwhile use out of websites I design. The trick is to realize that
THESE are the people to actually target.

Thank you
Caleb Fuller
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End of babble-digest V1 #138
****************************

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