Babble v1 143

babble-digest Saturday, January 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 143

In this issue:
monkeying with H5
watermarking/branding images/files/cows...
color tables for referance
Re: watermarking/branding images/files/cows...
Re:Interface design- kids and stuff
Interface design - details
Re: watermarking/branding images/files/cows...
Re: Interface design - details
Re: Microsoft take over the world? Not at these download speeds.
Re: color tables for referance
Re: Bill Gates site
Webmonkey network... hmm.
typography
RE: Webmonkey network... hmm.
RE: targeting a frame and name together

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:04:53 -0800
From: Jason Harris <jason@meniscusdesign.com>
Subject: monkeying with H5

some thoughts on seeing H5 becoming a hotwired channel...

I see tonight that the big change at my beloved H5 is that it has become
another section of the webmonkey/hotwired conglomeration. I don't know
yet how that will affect the overall presentation, but initially it does
bring up some trepiditious feelings.

First, let's get this straight, I really dig webmonkey/hotwired. I make
an everyday morning ritual of reading Taylor or Jeff Veen's latest
article, I even busted out my first proto-JS rollover based on a demo
there more than a year ago. My problem is one than was drilled into my
head ironically by H5, the site that now falls victim to it. BRANDING.
Many an H5 review have extolled the virtue of true and consistent
branding as a component of a sites successful communication, and yet I
see the sophisticated H5 "brand" now diluting into the techno-hip
Webmonkey "brand" As a design connoisseur, I find more than one "flavor"
to be delicious. Sometimes I feel like Webmonkey, sometimes I'm in the
mood for Builder.com and of course I get those late night cravings for
H5. It is the individuality of these places that make them great. I
always find the best ingredients for a meal by running around to
specialty shops rather than "MEGA-grocery, 10 acres of breakfast cereals
alone!"

Of course I am hopelessly nostalgic (I'm the one who cried at "Titanic"
as much for that lost era as for the tragic storyline), I'm not at all
saying that H5 is ruined, just that it's place as a bastion of style and
sophistication is now in question. Perhaps this is only appropriate for
a dynamic medium still in search of a defining character, only time will
tell. I'm still as interested in where H5 will go, just a little more
nervous that that "Suck.com" banner is going to eat up the little site
that could (and still does).

a great weekend to everyone,

Jason Harris
Meniscus Interactive
http://www.meniscusdesign.com
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:01:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: watermarking/branding images/files/cows...

greets to all

thanx again to porter and cheng for helping me to get done *exactly* what
i was trying to convey. your help did not go unnoticed.. and im glad that
whole thread had some inspiring points for some of you.

THE QUESTION: (oh crap. i used capitals. /me slaps head on desk repeatdly)

watermarking images for use on the web.

i have a 3d jester hat that i use for my footers on both my and my
clients' sites, which was done by a friend and took him quite a while to
finish.

i dont want some scamps/scabs/losers stealing it from both him an myself
without credit.

i know there are some image watermarking utils/progs/methods out there to
try to "claim" ownership of images...

1. is this a waste of my time, or somethign we all have overlooked.
**please do not tell me things i already know, blah blah blah, that the
net is a free wheeling and stealing enviroment. give me NEW information...
thanx.

2. has anyone found a way/style that is the most reliable while *least*
intrusive to the images... that works.

3. is it free or how long must i sell pencils on the road to get into it.

personal attacks and grammer checks can be directed to dev/null as i dont
care. if you got this far, you understand what the hell im saying :D

many thanx in advance.

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:56:19 -0800
From: Jason Harris <jason@meniscusdesign.com>
Subject: color tables for referance

I haven't seen anybody put up a resource like this, so I have two
browser-safe color tables for all the babblers to download. I got these
when I did some work for Second Story this summer, they use them to plan
the colors for their sites, and I think we all know what great sites
they make. These are intended to be bookmarked and viewed in a browser,
they are not a Photoshop color table. Unlike a printed color chart (made
inaccurate by being rendered in 4 color CMYK inks) these truly show how
they look on screen (at least YOUR screen).

The URL is: http://www.meniscusdesign.com/colortables/index.html
there is a link that goes to a black background version on this page, be
sure to save both!

Please save my bandwidth and do not bookmark my site itself. View the
source and cut and paste, or use file>save. all you need is the HTML,
these are hex colored table backgrounds not images.

enjoy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:03:03 +0100
From: Christian Kirschniak <ck@dsein.com>
Subject: Re: watermarking/branding images/files/cows...

Matt Newell schrieb:

> greets to all
>
> thanx again to porter and cheng for helping me to get done *exactly* what
> i was trying to convey. your help did not go unnoticed.. and im glad that
> whole thread had some inspiring points for some of you.
>
> THE QUESTION: (oh crap. i used capitals. /me slaps head on desk repeatdly)
>
> watermarking images for use on the web.
>
> i have a 3d jester hat that i use for my footers on both my and my
> clients' sites, which was done by a friend and took him quite a while to
> finish.
>
> i dont want some scamps/scabs/losers stealing it from both him an myself
> without credit.
>
> i know there are some image watermarking utils/progs/methods out there to
> try to "claim" ownership of images...
>

I use the watermarking tools for every "artistic" pic I put on the web.
Although I know that every interesting pic on the web will be stolen
sometimes, it claims a kind of ownership feeling. The problem is: If you load
any pic in PS than you will easily remove the signation by using a standart
filter. After all, it makes not too much sense.

But I see the problem. People who do not only copy code for their pages will
increase. I lately read some articles in consumer magazines in which the
editor suggested people to "steal" interesting pictures and buttons. For me,
the problem is not the process of stealing but the point that good work from
good designers will appear in a unprofessional manner on other people´s
websites.

> 1. is this a waste of my time, or somethign we all have overlooked.
> **please do not tell me things i already know, blah blah blah, that the
> net is a free wheeling and stealing enviroment. give me NEW information...
> thanx.
>

Although I do it I pretend: It IS a waste of time!

> 2. has anyone found a way/style that is the most reliable while *least*
> intrusive to the images... that works.
>

I use the Digisign Feature of good oold photoshop. It is the easiest way ;-)

> 3. is it free or how long must i sell pencils on the road to get into it.
>
>

The personal account is free. But it only stores a number on the pic and it is
not very save (in my opinion) but better than nothing. (I am looking forward
to the day when I can sue a company thh produces Image CD-Roms with my
picture)!

> personal attacks and grammer checks can be directed to dev/null as i dont
> care. if you got this far, you understand what the hell im saying :D
>
> many thanx in advance.

Have fun

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:19:57 +0000
From: ant@powernet.gr (Anthony Kyriazis)
Subject: Re:Interface design- kids and stuff

Hi all,
Interface design is an interesting subject for which I have mixed
fealings. The internet has been arround for a long time and people using
it have gotten used to clicking to get to places.
This habit anoys me.As a designer I try to design pioneering interfaces
for the internet as I am sick and tired of average click,wait for
download then watch graphics apeer slowly sites.
It is true the net is becoming a beutifull place, nearly every day I
find another beutifull site. But they hardly have any interactivity in.
The net is not a flat non-interactive medium. Its not just graphic
design. You've got to try and start designing for interactivity between
the user and the site. Information is being displayed in different forms
all the more frequently now on the net.
It is revolutionising the way we see and understand information. Who in
their right mind will stay on the net to read a whole page of text
unless they are not paying for the phone bill.....?

I encountered a problem which to many may be concidered as bad
design...About a month ago I launched a DHTML site which run purely on
rollovers ( and maybe two clicks here and there...) to display the
information .Once loaded the user did not have to wait for any further
download time as it was all featured in one page.

Now people who visited the site had extreme fealigs for it.Some loved
it to bits and some couldn't even enter it or understand what they were
suposed to do to access it.
Anyway if any of you take any interest you can find the site at the
bottom of theis mail...

I am currently undergoing a experiment between what graphics women like
and how it differs to what males like.

When I have completed the series of designs I will inform you of the
url....

This conversation is quite interesting...thanx

take care

ant
- --
multimedia designer

Anthony Kyriazis ( ant@powernet.gr )

http://swankarmy.net/ant/vol2/index.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:55:33 +0200
From: Armand Niculescu <armand@starnets.ro>
Subject: Interface design - details

It seems all responses to my previous post missed the question that
interested me the most (maybe because it was buried among less
important stuff. So:
What do *visitors* want to see/hear/experience in a web site? Is there
a study somewhere, based on age and other factors? (like country,
education, etcetera).

The web industry is almost non-existent where I live and we have to
work for two foreign web design companies. We make the site, we get
the money but no credit.

And now we're on this project (150 pages?) for a city. Should we try to
bring Flash into it? Java? How about a 2 minute video? Sights and
sounds?
The budget would allow all these, but what do visitors want?
Target audience: Tourists and businessmen. Countries like
Germany, Italy and North European countries. Ages: 20 to 50.

Armand.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:05:24 -0000
From: "Howard Shaw" <hjs@hetleys.co.uk>
Subject: Re: watermarking/branding images/files/cows...

>i know there are some image watermarking utils/progs/methods out there
to
>try to "claim" ownership of images...

http://www.webreference.com/multimedia/watermarks.html

Lot of useful info/links on watermarking here.

Howard

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:48:32 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Interface design - details

In message <34C0AA45.9DEB432B@starnets.ro>, Armand Niculescu
<armand@starnets.ro> writes
>It seems all responses to my previous post missed the question that
>interested me the most (maybe because it was buried among less
>important stuff. So:
>What do *visitors* want to see/hear/experience in a web site? Is there
>a study somewhere, based on age and other factors? (like country,
>education, etcetera).
>
we've done a little bit of psycho-socio work inhouse about the success
variations of form-content combos. at the minute, we're snowed under
with admin and bidding wars, but we hope to publish some results in the
next two months. (basically people are so thrilled by the fact it works,
they don't care mostly: and surprsingly low end stuff will impress.
"utterly useless" mouseovers, bandwidthkilling animations)

>The web industry is almost non-existent where I live and we have to
>work for two foreign web design companies. We make the site, we get
>the money but no credit.
>
>And now we're on this project (150 pages?) for a city. Should we try to
>bring Flash into it? Java? How about a 2 minute video? Sights and
>sounds?
>The budget would allow all these, but what do visitors want?
>Target audience: Tourists and businessmen. Countries like
>Germany, Italy and North European countries. Ages: 20 to 50.
>
therein lies the problem. i think i can safely say that if you match
your work to this visitor demographic's requirements, it ain't gonna
have no java/video/plugins/nuthin. it ain't gonna be good either.

because primarily, i figure business types like low end fastload
interface stuff (leadin to cold hard numbers/reports) and tourists want
pictures.

to do it well, exceed these expectations. currently, most clients will
not let you set the agenda, but it sounds to me like maybe you're in a
position to do something a bit special.

- --
Paul Frost
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:19:14 -0800
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft take over the world? Not at these download speeds.

>I mean, come on! Photographs as GIFs, interlaced GIFs no less... that's
>just plain insulting. Oh, wait! Maybe that's their solution to the
>Explorer/JPEG display problem. Are these really the people we want
>designing our software?

Just to be off the subject here -

As far as using GIF compression to display photographs, it's sometimes a
better solution than one would originally think.

As designers, we tend to forget that the vast majority of our audience uses
displays of 256 colors (or less!). Viewing JPGs at 256 colors is, well,
ugly, to say the least. On occasion, I have compressed the hell out of
photos into 256 colors (or less) because I can control the amount of
compression and know that the site doesn't look dog-ass ugly to most users.

Studio Archetype (www.studioarchetype.com) mentioned this technique long
ago, and it's evident in most of the sites they build - nagano.olympic.org,
www.ibm.com, etc. Though GIFs are usually a little bigger and grainier
than JPGs, you can, at the very least, count on the end result.

Personally, I prefer the grainy look over the mega-blurry, distorted,
discombobulated JPG photo look - when you get down into the levels of
heavy, heavy compression.

Ryan Ferguson
http://www.webworkx.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:12:29 -0500
From: Richard Bondi <rbondi@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: color tables for referance

Check out
http://www.cineville.com/colorcube

which is more useful for Photshop users.

Best,

At 01:56 AM 1/17/98 -0800, Jason Harris wrote:
>I haven't seen anybody put up a resource like this, so I have two
>browser-safe color tables for all the babblers to download. I got these
>when I did some work for Second Story this summer, they use them to plan
>the colors for their sites, and I think we all know what great sites
>they make. These are intended to be bookmarked and viewed in a browser,
>they are not a Photoshop color table. Unlike a printed color chart (made
>inaccurate by being rendered in 4 color CMYK inks) these truly show how
>they look on screen (at least YOUR screen).
>
>The URL is: http://www.meniscusdesign.com/colortables/index.html
>there is a link that goes to a black background version on this page, be
>sure to save both!
>
>Please save my bandwidth and do not bookmark my site itself. View the
>source and cut and paste, or use file>save. all you need is the HTML,
>these are hex colored table backgrounds not images.
>
>enjoy
>
>Jason Harris
>Meniscus Interactive
>http://www.meniscusdesign.com
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>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:17:19 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates site

>Now lets see, my wish list goes like this: Apple sells the incredible
>new G3 tower to us babblers at cost, Adobe uses list members to beta
>test new software and Bill Gates posts a question on how to use the 
>tag (no really have you seen his part of the MS site?
>http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/ it, um, really utilizes all those
>IE4 features huh?)

Then Porter said:

>Not only is this page just plain ugly, I had to wait several minutes to
>find out that it's ugly. This page weighs in at over 162K; I built the
>entire State of Maryland Web site (yes *site* not page) in less space --
>images included!
>
>I mean, come on! Photographs as GIFs, interlaced GIFs no less... that's
>just plain insulting. Oh, wait! Maybe that's their solution to the
>Explorer/JPEG display problem. Are these really the people we want
>designing our software?

I agree wholeheartedly on the GIF issue, I don't know what dingdong did
that, but at least it was a Microsoft dingdong.

On the other hand, I disagree about the page being "just plain ugly." From
my jaded designer's standpoint, yes, it's ugly, and I can think of many
ways I would have done it differently. HOWEVER, from a user's standpoint,
it's relatively easy to navigate (though, since it's such a long scrolling
page, I may have vertically noscroll-framed it on the left side), and it
presents the info in an easy-to-read fashion. That puts the page far and
above many others that I've seen out there, the ones where I think, "ok,
cool design, but what the hell are they trying to say, and how the hell do
I get out of here?"

As to the fact that tags were used on the page, and it isn't bleeding
edge, I say, who cares. Maybe I'm flying in the face of fashion (10 points
to the person who can tell me the mid-1980's song I'm quoting), but I don't
believe every page needs to be bleeding edge. In fact, one of my sites (for
a one-person company selling collectable model horses) could definitely be
laughed off by most of you as "first generation." I even used the <BLINK>
tag in it (horrors!). However, you know what, the site doubled her sales
the first year it was in place. When we spoke at the end of last year about
redesigning it, she said "God, no, don't change a thing!" And can you blame
her?

Her visitors don't give a crack whether or not her site has a tag in
it, or if it uses CSS. They get the info they need, easily. It accomplishes
the client's goals. At the end of the day, isn't THAT what counts?

I'm ready for the "no <BLINK>, no <BLINK>!!!" flames. Bring 'em on. :D
____________________
PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
a limited liability company
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:46:42 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Webmonkey network... hmm.

Well, I don't know about this whole Webmonkey integration - I happen to
think that Webmonkey is one of the bright spots on the web - but the new H5
site design leaves a lot to be desired.

If I'm speaking out of place, and I probably am, forgive my arrogance, but
shouldn't H5 "practice what it preaches?" I've always read H5's reviews
and profiles - they're pretty interesting - but what with the high-handed
attitude that H5 reviewers take, you'd think they'd be a little more
careful about typos and problems with H5 site itself (what's with that
frame on the left? Unless you're at 1024 or higher resolution, you can't
see all the menu options!)

Of course, if anyone pokes into the back issues a bit, it's easy to see why
H5 was redesigned. The old site design was, well, embarassing, for lack of
better words - looked like a design freshman was at the helm!

I suppose what I'm getting at is that H5 can be tiring after awhile. You
can only take so much hypocrisy and, well, crap. Call me jaded, call me
wrong - just call me hopeful that the Wired folks can whip this old dog
into shape. Anyway, the original point of this rather long-winded post was
that the new Webmonkey header at the top makes reading reviews and profiles
really, really, difficult. Talk about cramped! I'd love to read an
H5-style review of the H5 site. (Snicker.)

Okay, back to your regular discussion. Sorry for sarcasm.

Ryan Ferguson
signacct@signweb.com

Visit SignWeb, your one-stop resource for the signage industry!
- ----------------------------------
* http://www.signweb.com *
- ----------------------------------
// Searchable Sign Database // Message Boards //
// Industry Resources // OEMs //
// Suppliers // Vendors //
// Hot Products // Net News //
// Trade Schools // More...

- --> Other great ST On-Line publications:
ScreenWeb... * http://www.screenweb.com *
VisualStore... * http://www.visualstore.com *
Big Picture... * http://www.bigpicture.net *

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:28:05 -0500
From: Marc Parent <marc@desedge.com>
Subject: typography

<<Yes there is a way to do it, and to the best of my knowledge it's supported
back as far as both 3.0 browsers, at least. You can specify WIDTH="100%"
HEIGHT="100%" in a TABLE tag and it will expand to fill the window. You can
then use the ALIGN and VALIGN tags to center whatever you want in the
middle of this large table cell.>>

Sorry I'm a little late reading the list but just wanted to point out that
this solution doesn't work in IE3 Win95(don't know about MAC)
if you use the tag around your stuff in the table cell.
It works great without the paragraph tag though.
...

I just got "The Form of the Book" by Jan Tschichold
does anyone HIGHLY recommend any other books on typography?

Thanks
Marc

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Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:36:12 -0800
From: Christopher <chris@christopher.org>
Subject: RE: Webmonkey network... hmm.

On Saturday, January 17, 1998 9:47 AM, Ryan Ferguson wrote:
> Call me jaded, call me
> wrong - just call me hopeful that the Wired folks can whip this old dog
> into shape.

Don't forget that Kevin landed the H5 gig during the holidays (not the best
times to the on new projects) and has to learn how H5 operates very
quickly. It's not easy - there is a significant learning curve involved.
I'm sure once Kevin gets his feet planted firmly after the dust settles,
he'll whip H5 into shape.

The heart of the WebMonkey deal, IMHO, is that H5 will still be its own
entity, but will finally have some steady cash flow to buy some
off-the-shelf and custom solutions to their problems. It's not easy pulling
off high-grade web excellence on a shoestring budget, but it is a load of
fun :-) Esp. with plenty of aspirin and Coca-Cola.

The following were some my re-designs (re-modifications, really) I listed
for the H5 when the WebMonkey deal was being discussed and set into motion.

Near Future plans:

- - In order to find more real estate in the browser window due to the onset
of ad banners, I would shrink the size of the left black frame. The "bad
news" is that the pull quotes would be gone.

- - The core navigation links would be incorporated into each and every new
cover. This would mean a little more work on the site producer's part, but
s/he would use the time they gained from not having to do any more pull
quotes for every new H5 :-)

- - Resize the cover standards for submission. 450x450 pixels is way too big
and won't fit snug with the ad banners.

Far flung future plans:

- - database driven, searchable back issues. Search by web issues (CSS, GIF
animations, etc), ratings, URLs, site names, etc. The back issues are a
prize in H5's crown - no one should have to dig for the nuggets of
information.

Regards,
Christopher Schmitt
new media designer
http://www.christopher.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:58:39 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: targeting a frame and name together

Ummm, that's what I thought, but before I said anything I wanted to try
it. It worked in IE 4, but doesn't seem to work in NS 4 (I dunno about the
3.0 browsers).

- -----Original Message-----
From: Matt Newell [SMTP:matt@ns.qnis.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 1998 4:00 PM
To: Jim Bass
Cc: babble@highfive.com
Subject: Re: targeting a frame and name together

you append the "L" to the actual HREF... and use the # to seperate them.

have fun ;)

-- jEsTeR

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #143
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