Babble v1 145

babble-digest Sunday, January 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 145

In this issue:
sorry about the url...its up now..!
Sites mentioned lately
Re: was h5 bashing/critique
TECH: Best JPEG compression?
The High Five
Re: was h5 bashing/critique
Re: The High Five
Attention Web Designers
If we all take the high road we'll end up in Scotland a lot sooner.
job searching 101
Re: what direction - step back?
Need help: Netscape is messing up my tables
my first DHTML experiment
Web Design as a Career
FontView V1.3
HighFive...
Re: "color tables for referance"
money and H5...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:54:22 +0000
From: ant@powernet.gr (Anthony Kyriazis)
Subject: sorry about the url...its up now..!

For some reason my url didn't work...well its fixed now...

Sorry for any inconvinience....

here are some more sites I have created...

Bates Hellas site:
http://swankarmy.net/ant/bates/index.htm

Filoxenia site:
http://www.filoxenia.com
http://www.filoxenia.gr

Personal dhtml site:
http://swankarmy.net/ant/vol2/index.htm

Old personal site:
http://swankarmy.net/ant/mmd/index.htm

My font:
http://swankarmy.net/ant/index.htm

take care....
- --
multimedia designer

Anthony Kyriazis ( ant@powernet.gr )

http://swankarmy.net/ant/vol2/index.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:33:44 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Sites mentioned lately

Hi,
Just took a look at two sites mentioned lately, Movado and the new Patagonia site.
Personally, I liked the look of the Movado site - it has the 'classic arty'
appearance I tend to favor when it comes to 'design'...Don't see what the
problem with the navigation is. I thought it worked fairly effectively. I
didn't stay too long, mainly because it is late and I have no interest in the
products themselves anyway. I didn't think the animations were annoying
though. Seemed fast enough and fitted well with the overall image. Perhaps its
because I N E V E R watch TV, thus animations on the web are the only
animations I see, but I don't find them annoying.
Patagonia - well, it is the usual extreme competence we've come to expect from
Adjacency. However, I'm glad to see that even they fall prey to Netscape's
amazing resizing frame rows. Their solution with the gradual shading at the
bottom works well, although it is possible to occasionally end up with a big
patch of plain gray. I might try this for the site I am working on, as it is
less succeptible to the problem than the single black line I wanted. (Aaargh -
3D shading...and I just realized I used a drop shadow today too. Damn, back to
the drawing board.)

Also, I'll let you all know that as of today, I'm pursuing this (web design)
as my full time career. Wish me success. (Unless you're in the Sydney area, in
which case you have some new competition.)

Caleb Fuller
Analog Creations
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:45:18 +0100
From: Pascale Camus-Walter <camwal@cybercable.tm.fr>
Subject: Re: was h5 bashing/critique

From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
>i understand you guys like h5 for a resource of information and the like,
>but the amount of conversation on this issue might best be not forwarded
>to whole list..

I don't agree with you, Matt, I find this conversation very important for
all the list. I realize how awkard it is to criticize the site of the
list... and I understand that you don't want to ruin the list...
However, behind the discussion about the example of H5 is a serious
topic concerning advanced design.
I tolerate any approximation in webdesign, as far as I can reach
the content easilly and that it is showed in an appropriate manner. But,
when I become handicaped by a bad displaying of the windows, texts,
images... and establish the same problem than Ryan, but he expresses it in
better words than me:

> Unless you're at 1024 or higher resolution, you can't
>see all the menu options!.... the new Webmonkey header at the top makes
>reading reviews and profiles really, really, difficult.

Imagine, if we have a real serious technical problem for just approaching
the information, isn't that the limit for a design site?

With the time, I realized that the central message of H5 shrinked
to about 60% of the original size (this is a subjective impression) , and
it became more and more difficult to navigate and find the old reviews. I
tryed recently to find the babble page which I easilly found for some
weeks:it disappeard deeply in the site.

What will happen? This site, like Webmonkey and like many other websites,
overgrown by technique, will move from the design philosophy to the
database logic. You will loose the architecture of the design to the
advantage of what we could call a "DHL" logic: to transport people and
information through a pipe instead of proposing a space set up for an
pleasant route.
The same thing happened to webmonkey. At the beginning, it was
constructed like a village, every thing was near from the other. It was
terribly easy and attractive to jump from one thing to the other: talks,
threads, news, archives,etc.. were arranged in a pattern that invited you
to go freely from one thing to the other, and stroll.
Now you have to concentrate for getting your info. It's no more a dawdle,
it's a work. It didn't grow from a village to a town, it grew to an
administrative center, where you roam from one office to the other. You
don't feel invited anymore.Just keep moving!

This long post just to say that, please, think about carefully before
asking for a self-censor ship, because this thread raises an important
architecture issue.

Il est plus facile de rayer l'obscurité que la lumière. R. Juarroz
+---------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
artKfee: http://www.cybercable.fr/~camwal/
The Waltercolour studio: http://geocities.datacellar.net/SoHo/Gallery/5806/
apastras: http://web.superb.net/apastras
+------------------------------------+----------------------------------+

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:51:15 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: TECH: Best JPEG compression?

Hi,
Has anybody tested different JPEG compression (Mac) software?
I am comparing the JPEGs used on the Landrover.com site with a physically
similar sized image I am trying to use, and when compressed to get a similar
file size (20-30K), my image quality is absolutely #$%^ compared to what
Adjacency achieved. I am using GraphicConverter from Lemke Software. I've
ensured that comments and previews and stuff have been turned off to minimize
file sizes. The image has even been blurred with gaussian blur 2.5 pixels.
This doesn't matter, as the effect is of an old blurred sepiatone photo or
movie projection. (Wanted a 'grainy' look but it just won't compress!)
Any suggestions? Tips? Who is the resident Babble JPEG expert lurking about? (
Surely not Porter - he gets the title for everything else <g> )

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 11:19:39 -0500
From: Kevin Travers <kwt@highfive.com>
Subject: The High Five

Babblers,

I have been following and documenting the many comments and suggestions
about the changes that have taken place at the High Five and the problems
that need to be corrected. I just wanted to post to the whole list and
let everyone know that I am aware of the adjustments that need to be made
and that raising the bar on the quality of the High Five is my first
priority. Please keep the comments and sugestions coming in. I've said it
before and I'll say it again because it is true ... the High Five is
*your* website. It was originally constructed to be a source for design
excellence on the web and that is what it is going to continue to be.

Running the H5 is a lot of work and, as Chris pointed out, I have hit the
ground running and there is bound to be some adjustment time. We are
reworking, redesigning, and reconstructing to improve the navigation
issues, the CSS problems, the frame sizes, the lack of desktop real
estate and the quality of the content.

The changes won't take place overnight, so please be patient and most
importantly ... don't lose faith! The H5 is not only going back to the
quality you remember, it is going to far exceed it. Your input, negative
and positive, is vitally important, so please keep them coming.

Thanks again for your patience and understanding.
Keep the faith, folks. The High Five is here to stay!

Kevin Travers
H I G H F I V E
http://www.highfive.com
kevin@highfive.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:37:49 -0600
From: jason kottke <jason@imationstudio.com>
Subject: Re: was h5 bashing/critique

i actually think that the discussion about h5 is a worthwhile endeavor.
it's always good to talk about what's right and wrong with a site, no
matter what site it is. site redesign is a difficult task...it's hard
picking a site apart and trying to put it back together again in a format
that actually works better. i know it's helpful for me just to listen to
the discussion about these redesign issues.

and besides, the babble list is being monitored by the h5 staff so our
comments and suggestions are actually being heard. we're helping ourselves
build a better resource and that's pretty worthwhile in and of itself.

- -jason

http://web.0sil8.com
"not your father's web site"

>i understand you guys like h5 for a resource of information and the like,
>but the amount of conversation on this issue might best be not forwarded
>to whole list.. please dont flame me if im in the minority with this, but
>shooting replies every 15 minutes is filling up my box, even though its a
>mailing list, maybe keeping replies that turn to conversations between
>yourselves would be a better approach for all of us.
>
>it seems to me that a *lot* of time/effort has been placed on what h5
>should and should not do. and it kind of worries me that there is no other
>influence to talk about ...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:00:29 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The High Five

In message <199801181621.IAA17462@scooby.verso.com>, Kevin Travers
<kwt@highfive.com> writes
>Babblers,
>
>I have been following and documenting the many comments and suggestions
>about the changes that have taken place at the High Five and the problems
>that need to be corrected. I just wanted to post to the whole list and
>let everyone know that I am aware of the adjustments that need to be made
>and that raising the bar on the quality of the High Five is my first
>priority. Please keep the comments and sugestions coming in. I've said it
>before and I'll say it again because it is true ... the High Five is
>*your* website. It was originally constructed to be a source for design
>excellence on the web and that is what it is going to continue to be.
>
>Running the H5 is a lot of work and, as Chris pointed out, I have hit the
>ground running and there is bound to be some adjustment time. We are
>reworking, redesigning, and reconstructing to improve the navigation
>issues, the CSS problems, the frame sizes, the lack of desktop real
>estate and the quality of the content.
>
>The changes won't take place overnight, so please be patient and most
>importantly ... don't lose faith! The H5 is not only going back to the
>quality you remember, it is going to far exceed it. Your input, negative
>and positive, is vitally important, so please keep them coming.
>
>Thanks again for your patience and understanding.
>Keep the faith, folks. The High Five is here to stay!
greets all
time for my two cents worth on the subject of high5, it's all gone awry!
firstly, after listening to all the comments made, having a very careful look at
the recent changes etc, i've got to say that really the high5 is at its lowest
point. even some of the travesties it used to call its 'design' were better
than the current offering.

the content (especially the movado review) is, quite honestly, very weak. what
movado is doing in a list of top design sites i don't know.

the webmonkey/wired stuff at the top is a desktopspace killer. i would have
tried to negotiate that one, kids.

despite the patronising don't lose faith plea, it's difficult to remain
committed to a resource which is so hypocritical. and given the abundance of
quality out there....

meanwhile, this list goes from strength to strength, with guys like porter and
jeff quickly attaining a deserved cult-style following, whilst a healthy
philosophical background noise discussion permeates several posts.

at one time, the high5 was on my list of "show the clients what's possible"
sites. but not at the moment. and by the sounds of it, i'm not alone in
believing this: (safety in numbers, eh).

i can thoroughly appreciate the pressure you kids are currently under, so i
don't want to sound too damning, but i can't help it.... no, no what i mean is
best of luck. no sincerely best of luck.

it disadvantages the whole community when resources of quality lose their
sparkliness.

on a personal note, i'd also like to advise against ever using the phrase "The
High Five is here to stay!" it sounds like a paraphrase from the harland-wolff's
chief engineer. aieee. so put stuff right, eh?

be good y'all

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:15:02 PST
From: "Brad Davis" <striker_d@hotmail.com>
Subject: Attention Web Designers

Are there any young web designers out there who would like to band
together and build web pages? Email me off list at striker_d@hotmail.com

:-)
Sincerly,
Brad Davis
www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/1500/index.html
Icq #: 5279017 ;-)= www.icq.com

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:44:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Porter Glendinning <ag@cen.com>
Subject: If we all take the high road we'll end up in Scotland a lot sooner.

I have a proposal for the members of this list: Let's not rampantly
criticize the H5 unless we can offer a solution to what we perceive to be a
problem. If you want to complain about the quality of the week's H5 site,
you have to submit a site you think deserves to be reviewed. If you want
to write in about how you thought the Review was weak, offer to help
review sites, or at the very least give some truly constructive advice
for improving them. If you don't like the layout or architecture of some
part of the H5 site, post the URL to your prototype of an alternative.

I'm not saying that discussion of H5's shortcomings isn't a valuable
topic, or appropriate for this list. But unless we start talking solutions
what's the point? It's very easy to be cynical; you're relieved of any
responsibility when things go wrong if you can say, "I told you so." (I am
100% as guilty as anyone else on the list, if not more so.) But this list
is about solving advanced design problems (working the banner of a sponsor
into an existing and established site design, for example), not
complaining about them.

The idea that the H5 is "our site" may sound corny, but it's the truth.
The people running the H5 are no different from ourselves (Please forgive
me Kevin; it's for their own good.) and I'm sure they are doing their best
to provide a quality resource. But the relationship is not
prophet/follower, as it may have seemed in the early days of the Siegel
administration. It has become one of a community of peers, certainly, at
least, among the members of this list. This is an excellent sign;
Grasshopper can now snatch the pebble from Teacher's hand. However, with
that pebble comes increased responsibility to be Teacher to other
Grasshoppers.

At the very least, if no one else accepts this proposal, I will
personally try to abide by it, and I offer my services to the H5 staff in
any way that I am able to help.

<A onRead="tongue.location = 'cheek';">
I just wanna use my powers (and my cult following?) for good!
</A>

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:26:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: job searching 101

i was wondering what resources you all use for possible job/career
searching..the usual newspaper/online/connections or what else?

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:15:48 +1100
From: daniel keating <keeto@netinfo.com.au>
Subject: Re: what direction - step back?

egan jones wrote:

>..."usable lifetime" of digital media, commenting on
> how paper is king. Well, not necessarily,... but at least with
> paper,you can just look at it and get the info from it you need (even > if the paper is hundreds or thousands of years old!).

I have read this article and wonder if paper really does have this
wonderful archive value that is claimed. I mean does even stuff carved
in stone have this archive ability? can you read the rosetta stone? can
a modern egyptian?

>
> You don't need to have the right "standard", the right browser, the
> right OS, the right media reader/player. What happens when someone
> gives you valuable information on a Mac-CD 10, 20, 100 years in the
> microsoft-future? <shudder> It's worse than giving someone a 8-inch
> floppy, 8-track tape, or even punch-cards now!
>

I would like to point out that windows NT will read HFS volumes (ie: mac
CD's) and so mac information is accessible in a 'Gatesified' future.

The change in file standards which creates archive problems is more akin
to the change in language that occurs over time and not really something
which paper or any record is immune to. However digital records have the
advantage in that not only are they resistant to environmental effects
(water, skin acid, etc;) but they can be copied and updated without
damaging the original and at very high speed.

It should not be considered unusual to have to regularily update old
formats and media as this process is one of the most ancient of ways to
ensure reliable records. After all spoken word was passed from
generation to generation and still is going strong with records of
religious and cultural significance preserved today.

daniel keating:)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:14:15 -0600
From: tscarth@escape.ca
Subject: Need help: Netscape is messing up my tables

Netscape is messing up my finely crafted tables! For example, the page at
<http://www.tao.ca/~arbeiter/principles.html> looks like I want it to in IE
4 (I don't know about IE 3 because I only have one computer on which to
test my stuff), but is quite different in NN 3 and NN 4. I won't try to
explain the problem in writing; I'm not sure that I could. Most of the
pages at that site suffer from this problem, but as far as I can tell, the
HTML is fine. I would really really appreciate it if someone who has both
IE 4 and NN 3 or 4 would take a look and tell me what I've done wrong. It's
driving me insane.

Thanks in advance,
Tim Scarth
tscarth@escape.ca
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:22:34 -0600
From: tscarth@escape.ca
Subject: my first DHTML experiment

I have been fiddling around with DHTML, and the first result is at
<http://www.tao.ca/~arbeiter/index.html>, near the bottom of the page. It
is very simple, but I sort of like the effect. Oh, also, for the time being
it only works in IE 4 (until I figure out how to do the same thing in NN 4)
and the quotes are only placeholders. First of all, do you like it? I know
it is entirely unnecessary, but it was fun to do (and, I hope, look at).
Second, on my computer, when the quote expands it leaves a lot of artefacts
which only dissapear when I scroll the quote out of and back into the
browser window (I hope that made some sense). Is this my fault or the
browser's? Is there anyway to avoid it?

Thanks very much,
Tim Scarth,
tscarth@escape.ca
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:42:37 -0800
From: "Bob Van Deusen" <bob@yard49.com>
Subject: Web Design as a Career

Greetings,

I am new to the list and am looking for information on breaking in to the
Web Design business. I really enjoy working with the technology of the Web
and would like to transition that enjoyment into a career. Ideally, I would
like start a business working for myself designing web pages. I would be
grateful if any others on this list have made this transition and would be
kind enough to share their stories. I am especially interested information
regarding the demand for such a service and what type of income it can
generate.

If this is the wrong forum for this query, than I apologize for taking up
the bandwith and would be grateful for any pointers to a more appropriate
forum. Please respond directly to me and I will make a summary of all
replies available to the list.

Thanks,

Bob Van Deusen
bob@yard49.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:11:43 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: FontView V1.3

Hi everybody.

The program I wrote to display all system fonts (different sizes, styles,
and other options) and to also print them (all or selected) seems to have
proved useful amongst listees. Thanks for your feedback.

I have received enhancement requests (specifying a specific left margin
when printing) so I went ahead. For those of you who downloaded the
original .zip, you can replace the .exe with this one..

http://www.catapult.com.au/software/fontview.exe (only 24 kb)

If you'd like the whole thing you can grab the new .zip

http://www.catapult.com.au/software/fontview.zip (398 kb)

Other ideas for enhancements? (sorry, no Mac version)

| Yalcin Yilmaz
| Catapult Design House
| yyilmaz@catapult.com.au
| http://www.catapult.com.au

Where there is evil, there is a way

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:05:15 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: HighFive...

I have been reading with interest, the different opinions regarding
HighFive.

People have pointed out that the sites which they feature often have
serious problems that even the newest person making pages would know
shouldn't happen (i.e.: broken image icons, bad links, etc...). Another
person's recent post made it seem as if he was worshipoing at the altar
of the H5 church.

Personally, I think that it is very funny to see how H5 demonstrates
what it rails against. I don't think that H5 five is, as someone put it,
an arbiter of great taste. That's not to say that it hasn't been good.

I'm just tired of all the hype associated with it.

Can we spell 'hyperbole'?

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:05:10 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: "color tables for referance"

Jason wrote:

"I haven't seen anybody put up a resource like this,
so I have two browser-safe color tables for all the
babblers to download."

- ---

Actually Jason, there are at least 100 such sites that I am aware of.
and I am quite sure that there are lots more out there that I don't know
about. Some of them are straight tables, while others involve
JavaScript.

My own table of colours has been up for several years now and includes
hex codes, rgb values and cmyk colours. You can find it at the direct
URL:

http://members.aol.com/thewprg/htm/graphics/216color.htm

And people, do feel free to link directly to it. Except for my front
page, it is the busiest section on my site. Since I host the site on
AOL, I don't have to worry about getting a bill for extra hits. A lot of
people like to trash AOL but one of the good things about it is that you
can have unlimited hits on your site for no extra charge.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:11:42 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: money and H5...

Christopher wrote:

"The heart of the WebMonkey deal, IMHO, is that
H5 will still be its own entity, but will finally
have some steady cash flow to buy some off-the-shelf
and custom solutions to their problems. It's not easy
pulling off high-grade web excellence on a shoestring budget"

Which begs the question:

Is David Siegel not supporting the site? Or is he just cheap?

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #145
****************************

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