Babble v1 147

babble-digest Monday, January 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 147

In this issue:
JPEG Compression
Re: Need help: Netscape is messing up my tables
Re: Need help: Netscape is messing up my tables
SITE Review..
Re: If we all take the high road we'll end up in Scotland a lot sooner.
Page Creation Tools
Re: Quality of H5 (was: Rant On)
Me being lazy (BEWARE: LAYERs)
Re: Interface design- kids and stuff
Re: typography
Re: Custom Palettes In PS4
let's talk some (photo)shop
Re: Re: Interface design- kids and stuff
Seen these before? + Review + Rave
Re: let's talk some (photo)shop
Re: www.toyota.com
Re: If we all take the high road we'll end up in Scotland a lot sooner.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:28:11 +0000
From: Counterfeit - DD <ddias@workstation.org.uk>
Subject: JPEG Compression

I find gaussian blurring areas of an image which aren't of principle
focus usually helps rather than blurring the whole lot.

I use ProJPEG - it seems to do the best job, and it's interactive
preview is useful even though the estimated file sizes are often way
out. Just experiment until you get the best results.

Emblaze's WebCharger apparently makes claim to be the best tool for this
- - has anyone checked it out?

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:37:06 -0000
From: PaulM@mhie.ac.uk (Paul Milne)
Subject: Re: Need help: Netscape is messing up my tables

Tim Scarth writes:
>Netscape is messing up my finely crafted tables! For example, the page
>at
><http://www.tao.ca/~arbeiter/principles.html> looks like I want it to
>in IE
>4 (I don't know about IE 3 because I only have one computer on which to
>test my stuff), but is quite different in NN 3 and NN 4. I won't try to
>explain the problem in writing; I'm not sure that I could. Most of the
>pages at that site suffer from this problem, but as far as I can tell,
>the
>HTML is fine. I would really really appreciate it if someone who has
>both
>IE 4 and NN 3 or 4 would take a look and tell me what I've done wrong.
>It's
>driving me insane.

Tim, I've had a look at this page, and you're right, the Netscape
version is messing up.

It seems it isn't interpreting the first line of paragraph spacing
properly.

I'm not familiar with the tag, I assume this is what is giving
your paras
their generous vertical spacing? As the html is identical for both
browsers, I don't know
that you can actually do anything that wouldn't involve a completely
different
solution for Netscape, as is seems to be the interpretation of that tag
that is wonky.

Sorry this is only a confirmation, and not a solution.

- -------------------------------------------
http://corrieneuchin.mhie.ac.uk/~Paul_Milne/
"I learn by going where I have to go."
- --Theodore Roethke
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:37:06 -0000
From: PaulM@mhie.ac.uk (Paul Milne)
Subject: Re: Need help: Netscape is messing up my tables

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:05:26 EET
From: "Kimba #." <kgranlun@yrkes.syi.fi>
Subject: SITE Review..

Hi list!

Just finnished the layout and content for a client,

http://www.ronn.net

The site is in two languages, Swedish and Finish.. The Swedish
version has content but the Finish version has the same content on
every page.. Check any of them.. Your choice.. Here;s the Swedish
version: http://www.ronn.net/mainse.html

What I would want to know is:

1. Is the Layout attractive?!? What do you think?
2. Navigation? Is it good/ bad??
3. Loading time and connection-speed would be nice..
4. Do the tables go 'wank' on your platform/ browser??

Thanks!

Kim Granlund.
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:33:06 +0100
From: Pascale Camus-Walter <camwal@cybercable.tm.fr>
Subject: Re: If we all take the high road we'll end up in Scotland a lot sooner.

>From: Porter Glendinning
>Subject:
>
>I have a proposal for the members of this list: Let's not rampantly
>criticize the H5 unless we can offer a solution to what we perceive to be a
>problem. If you want to complain about the quality of the week's H5 site,
>you have to submit a site you think deserves to be reviewed. If you want
>to write in about how you thought the Review was weak, offer to help
>review sites, or at the very least give some truly constructive advice
>for improving them. If you don't like the layout or architecture of some
>part of the H5 site, post the URL to your prototype of an alternative.

I recently poited out to the list the experimental design laboratory site
of graphic 6 + :
http://shinzo.com/

I like this sobriety. Sobriety, isn't that the definition of design?

Il est plus facile de rayer l'obscurité que la lumière. R. Juarroz
+---------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
artKfee: http://www.cybercable.fr/~camwal/
The Waltercolour studio: http://geocities.datacellar.net/SoHo/Gallery/5806/
apastras: http://web.superb.net/apastras
+------------------------------------+----------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:42:00 -0500
From: Michael Tucker <mrtucker@fayettevillenc.com>
Subject: Page Creation Tools

Hi Gang!

First of all- wow- what a resource this list can be. I am a new member
(feel like a real novice here...) and have lurked mostly trying to glean
some insight into this new media schtuff.

Anyway.... to the question at hand: I was reading in Internet World
about page authoring tools- NetObjects Fusion, PageMill, Visual Page and
the like. I guess we all know you can never get away from hard coding,
but after looking at a couple of these programs as demos, is there a
recommendatin anyone can make for any of these tools?

My own findings were- Fusion trys to assume I'll never, ever have to
look at code- and after seeing the garbage it produces I'm too scared to
look at code..... (I guess you could say I was less than impressed).
Visual Page (by Symantec) and PageMill (an Adobe product) seemed to
generate pretty clean, simple code, and it was easy to toggle between
code and wysiwyg modes. However, I digress. My questions, to reiterate,
anyone have a comment on any of these tools? Anyone use a tool like
these? What do you "pros" think about these tools?

- --
Michael R. Tucker
New Media Online Producer
Fayetteville Observer-Times
mrtucker@fayettevillenc.com
http://www.fayettevillenc.com
Tel. 910-486-3535

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:15:07 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: Re: Quality of H5 (was: Rant On)

Brian Dame eloquently stated:

> As a former Verso employee I can attest to how hard it is to find sites that
> deserve the award. Part of my job duty was to spend time searching for
> worthy sites and I was lucky to find one a month. Most of the time we
> compromised our standards. Movado is a perfect example. I don't know about
> you guys, but it seems to me the reviewer spent more time picking apart the
> site than praising it (and it deserved to be picked apart - horrible site).
> I'm sure this is due to the recent personnel changes at the H5. It's funny
> how reviewers think they will perceived as more knowledgeable if they
> criticize rather than praise (read any movie review).
>
> I agree that execution is sorely lacking in most H5 sites. I'm happy to see
> that bandwidth issues are being taken much more seriously nowadays, but I
> haven't seen many H5 sites that are good examples. I'll start reading the
> reviews again when they stop praising all the pretty graphics and start
> paying attention to the site as a whole. I'd much rather read about well
> thought out, usable sites than the garbage they've been reviewing lately.

I have also had a difficult time the last month or so with H5's reviews. I
chalked most of it down to Chris moving on and the holidays. I remember filling
out the requested survey. After I moved on it reloaded the index page in the
content frame. Great! a framed frame set. I mailed them about it, but I would
have thought such a thing to be checked, if not JavaScripted to prevent such a
thing.

I actually enjoyed the latest review. The reviewer picked apart the site all
through the review but then it received very high marks. I just don't get it.
If there are problems with the site state them. Also make sure to state what
makes the site *work*. I have found the reviews too short most of the time. I
think one week to review a site could include more than 4-5 short paragraphs.

On the other hand, I don't expect H5 to be another "Web Pages That Suck"
although I would like some of that knowledge applied in reviews. To be fair to
H5 they at least take into account web specific features such as download time
that others (such as Print's recent awards) don't bother with.

I hope H5 will improve in the near future. I suspect it will. But to be taken
seriously they need to take care of the little details on their own site.
Little details like misspellings, differing font and paragraph layouts and the
above mentioned frame set problem can only detract from their credibility.

PS: If you are having problems finding adequate sites maybe your standards are
too high. You can review something and not give it an "A+".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:33:32 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <lance@dbtinc.com>
Subject: Me being lazy (BEWARE: LAYERs)

I've spent the past three days trying to figure out <LAYER> and before
you beat me over the head screaming "it's non-standard!" and "even
Netscape won't support it!" what I'm really trying to do is use the
layers method in JavaScript1.2 to emulate that rather ugly gray
drop-down set of buttons that used to appear on Netscape's homepage but
has been relegated to only a few pages lately because it *was* ugly and
served a very limited purpose - but one which I hope to alter. I have a
client with a unique need for which that solution would be very
effective. My question is:

As I understand it, a LAYER by definition is called by a parent document
and resides atop it, moving and reacting to user input. The links on the
layer overwrite the parent document and all attached layers so that the
layer element itself cannot remain open if the parent is closed. What I
need is a document that reacts like a layer but points all associated
links at a separate frame rather than a parent document and thereby
remains open independent of any other document but is "aware" of what
other documents are currently active because it must indicate what links
are available from a reporting heirarchy based on which report is
currently open. I am using a kludge to emulate the effect by using
several different pages that reload a set of graphic buttons but the
number of reports will soon make that solution unuseable - having a page
that reveals and hide available buttons dynamically would be better.

- -OR-

Has anyone seen a Netscape'd page that uses the dynamic text linking
that you can do in IE4 whereby clicking a certain text link reveals
previously hidden text links underneath it. This is a cascading effect
that reveals only what the user wants to see within groups of links in
descending order (used extensively in the IE4 Internet Client SDK).

I'm looking for pointers to example pages, not extended explanations of
how it's done. I can view source like a madman. This has to be a
Netscape solution because the client has standardized on NS4.

Ignore or suggest at your leisure,
Lance
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:39:52 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: Re: Interface design- kids and stuff

Maybe I am being elitist here, but there has to be some level where the interface
cannot be dumbed down anymore. Don't get me wrong I have seen beautiful interfaces
that are just darn right confusing, but does one need to consider every single
eventuality when doing a site navigation system?

I realize the site's purpose and content will actually determine in large part how
simple the navigation must be. A commercial site will necessitate a simple
interface in order to accommodate the LCD. However, a personal site or a site
dedicated to entertainment can be a bit more experimental.

I expect some kind of effort on the viewer's part. I shouldn't have to put a big
blinking "click here" or lozenge shaped beveled buttons. And yet, my boss tells me
that is what the average person expects when viewing our intranet site. I give
people credit for some intelligence even though most people probably don't deserve
it!

People expect to point and click their way through a web site. There seems to be a
UI quest to come up with a metaphor for web design or software interfaces but I
would counter by saying that despite the relatively young age of the web it
already has its own metaphor. It emulates and elaborates on the GUI environment we
have had since the Mac came out. Why is there a need to reinvent it? Maybe when
the competition between hardware and software requirements has become nonexistent
we can move on to a new UI, but why reinvent the wheel? Why try to make the web
like TV? So people understand TV. It doesn't take a genius to figure out point and
click, especially if they have ever used any kind of software without a command
line. People don't need to understand how the web works to use it just as they
don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive.

I am not saying that "anything goes" in web design, but I think people are
intuitive enough to figure things out; usually in the same amount of time it takes
a page to load on a 28.8 modem. If they don't take a minute to figure out what to
point and click then it is their loss. I realize this attitude doesn't sell
widgets, but this sort of "idiot proofing" the web will never succeed 100%. There
will always be people who just don't get it. Look at all the frivolous lawsuits
from people who just don't realize they should point a can of coke away from their
face before opening it. These people probably don't deserve to be on the web.

</elitist rant>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:34:10 -0500
From: "Joe Calleja" <joe@torweb.com>
Subject: Re: typography

> I just got "The Form of the Book" by Jan Tschichold
> does anyone HIGHLY recommend any other books on typography?

The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst is one of my
contemporary favourites. Bringhurst talks a lot about digital typography,
which is more important in print design, but is still very useful for web
design as well.

+ + +
Joe Calleja | Creative Director
Toronto Web Services
416.955.1779 | joe@torweb.com
visit us at http://www.torweb.com
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:03:45 -0600
From: Richard Bondi <rbondi@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: Custom Palettes In PS4

Here's how you do it:
1) Open the Swatch Window
2) Your new friend is the little black arrow in the top right corner. Click
it to get a menu:
-- Reset Swatches loads a Photoshop default palette, nothing special about
it;
-- Load Swatches actually _appends_ palettes to the currently loaded
one(s). You have to scroll down to see them.
-- Replace Swatches loads a new palette instead of the current one.
Photoshop comes with a number of palettes in the /Photoshop/Palette folder;
try loading them to get the idea.
-- Save Swatches is what you'll use once you've created your own palettes,
which I'll now explain how to do.

** To add a color to your swatch (PC only, I don't know about Macs):
- -- Create a foreground color that is the color you want to add to your
palette (either with the eyedropper, or by clicking the foreground color
box in the floating tool window and hand-mixing).
- -- Move the pointer over the swatch area. Hold down the shift key (cursor
will turn into a spilling paint bucket), and click -- it doesn't matter
where. This will append the foreground color to the swatch.

** To remove a color from your swatch:
- -- Hold down the control key (cursor will turn into scissors), and in the
swatch area, click on the color square you want to remove.

That's it.
How did I learn about it? No manual, no online help, just guess and
experiment, guess and experiment...and that's my recommendation to you, too.

Finally, you can pick up useful web palettes at www.cineville.com/colorcube.

Cheers,
Richard Bondi

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:08:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: let's talk some (photo)shop

greets all,

in a nutshell, have any of you come up with a good technique for creating
a "metallic" paint effect..?

im talking like the lowrider special type paint job style of
metallic/irridescent (sp?)

it seems with all of the beveling, and the like, i havent seen anything
like this.

thanx in advance if this has already been talked about, otherwise i look
forward to possible ideas and methods.

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:38:31 EST
From: MindScribe <MindScribe@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Interface design- kids and stuff

I have to agree that designing for the lowest common denominator is a bad
idea. However, if you work for a company as a designer and you cannot change
your bosses' minds about design, you have a choice- dig! Otherwise, you can
choose not to take on the sort of client you can't persuade with your superior
knowledge.

The Web is not TV now, but it will be in "x" years. However, you may notice
that tv is becoming more weblike, especially in its commercials. You've seen
the car commercial that has an exact, if generic, replica of the browser
window around the border, haven't you?

I can't remember where I read it, but a quote seems apropos here:
<paraphrase>
"Companies that say 'We can't do it that way' generally aren't companies for
long"
</para>

I'm actually a proponent of fitting the site to both the users/potential users
and a clear idea of the site's purpose. Somewhere there will be an
equilibrium, or there will be a vacuum (no users).

cheers-
Michael Brewster
Interfacets Media
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:36:40 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: Seen these before? + Review + Rave

Hi everybody!

Excuse me if my excitement overheats your computers. I've just come up
with something I believe some of you may be interested in.

Firstly, I implemented an image rollover work around for IE2+3 - it works
:-) but it is limited to keeping the rolled-over image in its very own
separate frame :-( though this too can be worked around :-| This may not
be new, but

Secondly, I have found out how to implement a rollover to an animated GIF
- - I remember earlier discussions. (NN3, NN4 and IE3 tested on Win95)
Normal methods results in only the last frame of the animation showing -
not the animation. Now you can have a button EXPLODE! instead of
hilight

Working example?? It's all on my site:
http://www.catapult.com.au . Confused?? Questions?? you can mail me.

The tooltips are the animated gifs in question. They are animated to 'turn
off' - makes things simple. Please tell me it works on other systems as
well.

- -----------------------
*** I would like reviews for this site too please - regarding navigation
and layout. Are the image rollovers working on your browser? (Macs esp --
pretty please :-)) ***
- -----------------------
I have been using Macromedia Dreamweaver last 2 days and used it to
reconstruct my site (and produce such lovely neat beautiful code, I can
hang it up on my walls). I have never been so much in love. Only 28 more
days till I have to buy it. Someone please tell me Cyberstudio isn't
better - if it can get better than this, it'd probably kill me. #-)

| Yalcin Yilmaz
| Catapult Design House
| yyilmaz@catapult.com.au
| http://www.catapult.com.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:08:22 EET
From: "Kimba #." <kgranlun@yrkes.syi.fi>
Subject: Re: let's talk some (photo)shop

> greets all,
> in a nutshell, have any of you come up with a good technique for creating
> a "metallic" paint effect..?
> im talking like the lowrider special type paint job style of
> metallic/irridescent (sp?)
> it seems with all of the beveling, and the like, i havent seen anything
> like this.
> thanx in advance if this has already been talked about, otherwise i look
> forward to possible ideas and methods.

Hi Matt!

You'll find a similar effect in the November issue of "Computer ATRS"
, they have an ongoing 'Photoshop School', and I think this was
mentioned in the November issue yes..

( Kimba.
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:10:05 -0600
From: Jeremy Marx <jmarx@sparknet.net>
Subject: Re: www.toyota.com

At 09:04 PM 1/19/98 , Ryan Ferguson wrote:
>At 09:38 AM 1/19/98 +0800, you wrote:
>
>>Hi there,
>>
>>First up, I have had nothing to do with this site, I just came across it
>>and was very impressed...
>
>Mmm... Toyota.com. I go there to drool over the Supra Turbo every now and
>again.
>
>Suuuuuuupppppraaaaa.

Yeah, well I can't get anywhere in my MSIE 4. Which makes me wonder. My IE
doesn't respond to javascript. At all. Period. Why?

J e r e m y M a r x
Webmaster
SparkNET Interactive
<http://www.sparknet-interactive.com/>http://www.sparknet-interactive.com/
ICQ: <http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5719871>http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5719871

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:15:17 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: If we all take the high road we'll end up in Scotland a lot sooner.

In message <Pine.3.89.9801181557.A2360-0100000@fox>, Porter Glendinning
<ag@cen.com> writes
>I have a proposal for the members of this list: Let's not rampantly
>criticize the H5 unless we can offer a solution to what we perceive to be a
>problem. If you want to complain about the quality of the week's H5 site,
>you have to submit a site you think deserves to be reviewed. If you want
>to write in about how you thought the Review was weak, offer to help
>review sites, or at the very least give some truly constructive advice
>for improving them. If you don't like the layout or architecture of some
>part of the H5 site, post the URL to your prototype of an alternative.
>
in part, porter, you are right as ever (i am merely mortal: but a mortal
with a big mouth so here goes): i think part of the problem is the
highhanded attitude of the highfive. eg:
"Never in high five. No way. Not that piece of crap." attributed to
david siegel about www.zeldman.com and quoted from "A List Apart"
[hope you don't mind me nicking your eg jeff, but i couldn't help it]

now for me, jeff's work is pretty damned good. a helluva lot better than
movado. but because movado appeals to the design sympathies of h5, it
gets reviewed. it was such a pisspoor site it doesn't even deserve to
get all the mentions.

>I'm not saying that discussion of H5's shortcomings isn't a valuable
>topic, or appropriate for this list. But unless we start talking solutions
>what's the point? It's very easy to be cynical; you're relieved of any
>responsibility when things go wrong if you can say, "I told you so." (I am
>100% as guilty as anyone else on the list, if not more so.) But this list
>is about solving advanced design problems (working the banner of a sponsor
>into an existing and established site design, for example), not
>complaining about them.
>
i was trying to be positive at least in my comments. i seem to remember
saying something about it is a loss for the whole web community (i can't
be assed to decompress my mail archives to find it: apologies for
lethargy in advance). i do agree however, that many of the comments
should have had the subject line <----schadenfreude rox---->

>The idea that the H5 is "our site" may sound corny, but it's the truth.
>The people running the H5 are no different from ourselves (Please forgive
>me Kevin; it's for their own good.) and I'm sure they are doing their best
>to provide a quality resource. But the relationship is not
>prophet/follower, as it may have seemed in the early days of the Siegel
>administration. It has become one of a community of peers, certainly, at
>least, among the members of this list. This is an excellent sign;
>Grasshopper can now snatch the pebble from Teacher's hand. However, with
>that pebble comes increased responsibility to be Teacher to other
>Grasshoppers.
>
at least your defence is wittier

>At the very least, if no one else accepts this proposal, I will
>personally try to abide by it, and I offer my services to the H5 staff in
>any way that I am able to help.
>
i pray nitely that they take you up on that offer

><A onRead="tongue.location = 'cheek';">
>I just wanna use my powers (and my cult following?) for good!
></A>
>
look into your heart porter, you know it to be true. h5 and your skills
can rule the galaxy as father and son. we can defeat the emperor....
>- Porter

may god have pity on my sacrilege

all the best kids

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #147
****************************

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