Babble v1 172

babble-digest Friday, January 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 172

In this issue:
Re: jodi.org style...
Comments on recent comments
RE: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem
Re: jodi.org style...
Re: Discussing sites, apologies
(Cutting a site == Cutting a designer) evaluates to FALSE
Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
on design and civility and duchamp
Style Sheets: Bugs in the Browser
Discussing sites, apologies
[none]
Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
duh (was: bugs in the browser)
re: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem + more...
Re: Discussing sites, apologies
Jodi.org - hhhmmm
typography question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:24:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: jodi.org style...

i find it vetry ignorant on your part to blatantly cut down a site based
on the fact that you "dont get it".

i honestly dont know what it *is* about, but it took some creativity to
make in the first place. and no one asked anyone to compare anything to
anything, much less something so original to a "garbage heap".

sorry, but i cant let something like that go unanswered.

remeber, its easy to tear down the castles, but they had to be built first
in order to be torn down.

thanx,

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

>
> That's for sure, epileptics, stay away from this site.
>
> Now, on a lighter note, can anyone tell me what the hell the POINT of that
> website is? I must've missed something. If people have a problem with
> Gabocorp's site, they oughta compare it to THAT garbageheap. Of course, it
> could have some point that I'm missing, so I shouldn't criticize. And yes,
> I waited all the way.
> ____________________
> PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
> a limited liability company
> PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
> <mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
> competitive business advantages through creative technology
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:34:24 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Comments on recent comments

Andrew Zimmerman:
"Imagine using Mapquest and instead of making round trips to the server to
zoom in/ zoom out of maps you just use Flash's zoom in/out on the same
(smaller sized) map."

Yes! This is the type of practical application of Flash that I would like
to see. And I can think of one designer right off the top of my head who
could implement such a thing.

Gary Sweeting:
"I'm not the greatest of Java fans"..."Flash is here to stay"

Java's promise lies in the ability of creating cross-platform, stand-alone
applications with it, and I'm a fan of it in that area, but maybe its not so
promising for creating applets on web pages - unless it can be speeded up.
Flash's promise is definitely associated with the web.

Regarding the latest from www.jodi.org: while the images that emerge from
the blinking screens might be quite intriguing, the blinking itself is so
painful to watch that I doubt if many people would sit through it. Thus,
even though the content may be good, the execution and presentation is not.
A successful web site should have both. I haven't seen jodi before, but I'm
sure some of many of their presentations have been successful. I suggest
they use Flash to rework their current offering and make it easier on the
eyes!

On another note: there has been quite a bit of psychoanalyzing going on
around here recently. For instance, it has been suggested that I have
personal problems, that some of us don't know the difference between art
and marketing, etc. I suggest we stop such email-psychoanalysis. I daresay
it would be hard for most of us to analyze someone in person, much less
over freakin' email!
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:56:52 -0800
From: "Anita Rowland (S&T Onsite)" <a-anitar@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem

address to send your IE mac problems to:

iemacbug@microsoft.com

Since this is a released product, it may be too late for this version;
but let them know the problems you are having.

As always, a pointer to a reduced test case will greatly increase the
chances of your problem being examined.

Anita Rowland a-anitar@microsoft.com
IE Program Management Team

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris McLay [SMTP:chris@eycon.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 7:18 PM
> To: babble@highfive.com
> Subject: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem
>
> I seem to have come across a bug/problem in IE4 for the Mac. If you
> redefine the tag using CSS, and set the line-height property, IE4
> removes the bottom and top margins that normally apply to the tag. I
> have used the following style definition:
>
> p {
> font-size: 12px;
> line-height: 16px;
> margin-left:24px }
>
> This does not cause problems on NN4 Mac/W95, IE3 Mac, IE4 W95. You can add
> a margin-top or margin bottom tag, but this makes the margins larger in
> the
> other browsers.
>
> This is one of many recent problems I have had with IE4 Mac. We currently
> have a site sample which works well in everything except IE4 Mac, which
> does wierd things. Anyway this style problem is my major concern as it has
> a major effect on the readability of the site.
>
> Any ideas suggestions are most welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:07:11 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Re: jodi.org style...

At 08:24 AM 1/30/98 -0800, Matt Newell wrote:
>
>i find it vetry ignorant on your part to blatantly cut down a site based
>on the fact that you "dont get it".
>
>i honestly dont know what it *is* about, but it took some creativity to
>make in the first place. and no one asked anyone to compare anything to
>anything, much less something so original to a "garbage heap".
>
>sorry, but i cant let something like that go unanswered.
>
>remeber, its easy to tear down the castles, but they had to be built first
>in order to be torn down.

Yeah, whatever. OK, here's a more critical analysis of my jodi.org experience:

+ The flashing was rather hard on my eyes.
+ The gibberish ASCII symbols appeared to be arranged with no rhyme
or reason. I couldn't see the pattern or image they were trying to
convey.
+ I didn't understand the final screen's relevance, or what idea they
where trying to convey, or point they were trying to make.

Anyway, is it a crime to call things the way we see them? To have an
opinion? Jeez, guess I'm not politically correct enough. How does that
go... one man's meat is another man's poison? I thought this was a
discussion, someone saying "check this site out" is enough, in my book, to
elicit comments, both positive and negative. In the future, I'll sugarcoat
my comments so as to not offend the fragile, precious sensibilities of the
annointed arbiters of digirati taste.

To be fair, I did give the site a second look. Now it looks like an even
BIGGER garbage heap to me. :D
____________________
PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
a limited liability company
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 12:17:19 -0400
From: Kevin Travers <kwt@highfive.com>
Subject: Re: Discussing sites, apologies

>If by 'critique' Christopher means 'unnecessarily trash' then this
>rule makes sense to me; if not, then I'm not so sure. In any case, I
>would like to point out that people have their work critiqued in
>public forums all the time. Scientists via peer review, musicians and
>writers in newspaper reviews, presidents in various forms of
>journalism, web sites are discussed on other web sites. Such
>critiquing is not always done at the request of the author. Why should
>this list be any different?

I think the point of bringing up the list etiquitte in this instance was
to limit the amount of 'bashing' that was going on. Of course people are
going to talk about different sites and the designers of those sites
aren't always going to be available. Let's just use common sense to
determine the difference. ie, are we talking about the site or has it
escalated into something more? ...

>The list could then discuss, offer opinions, etc. This
>would give us all food for design thought and could even help the
>designers of sites under discussion.

this is the type of discussion that is supposed to spawn from a critique.
:)

thanks for your comments!

Kevin Travers
H I G H F I V E
http://www.highfive.com
kevin@highfive.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:12:36 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: (Cutting a site == Cutting a designer) evaluates to FALSE

Cutting down a person for no good reason is bad form, but just because
someone doesn't like a web site doesn't mean they are putting down the
creators of that site. Pat Flanagan didn't like the www.jodi.org site and
said so, that's what I got from his post. But I didn't get the feeling that
he was saying, "boy, aren't those designers over at www.jodi.org a bunch of
idiots". Thus, I see no reason for attacking Pat for expressing his views;
he wasn't attacking the designers, only the site. Of course, if web sites
had feelings, then I *would* have to take Pat to task!

Look, I'm not very fond of Mozart's music, I've always preferred Beethoven.
But I liked them each equally well when I knew them, even though Ludwiggy's
social skills left a bit to be desired when compared to ole Wolfie's.

Cheers!

- -chris

PS: I'm willing to bet Pat is British or Irish. He often ends his post with
a "Cheers". Whether he is or isn't from the UK, when you see a "cheers" at
the end of a post, that is quite often the equivalent of a smiley emoticon,
you know, "I'm not attacking here, I'm offering a friendly comment".
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:57:19 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

Does anybody even know if the author of www.jodi.org intended his/her site
to be an artistic expression? Certainly the person who input the code was
looking to break new boundaries which happens in art too but, it doesn't
mean that it necessarily *is* a work of art. An individual in Paris was
arrested for throwing up on a painting in the museum's permanent
collection..he later said that what he had done was Art. Come on. I'm not
going to get into the esoteric meaning of Art but certainly there are some
established patterns that somehow involve beauty regardless of individual
perceptions.... the Jodi site is an excellent example of "pushing the limits
of programming" and I can imagine using elements of it to do my own Art but
the entire experience does come across as a form of Art. A good creative
use of programming perhaps or a good source of new ideas to create art
maybe.. I can envision using similar patterns in sections of my electronic
paintings...

Jorge Hurtado

>My opinion is that, even though it may be an "art" site, it's still a
>garbageheap. That may single me out as a non-lover of abstract art, but
>it's truly pointless, dimensionless, and doesn't "take" me anywhere,
>emotionally _or_ intellectually.
>While I don't feel the need to understand a site to love the concept,
>Jodi.org just isn't happening. I know I'm going against the grain of some
>of the best web designers out there, and I'm perfectly willing to accept
>that I might be the dud, but man - that site _is_ a garbageheap.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:30:03 -0700
From: Trope newMedia <trope@teleport.com>
Subject: on design and civility and duchamp

creativity is no place for sissies . thin skinned, asocial misanthropic
fuckheads maybe, but not sissies . i'm personally glad that designers, in
general, are an opinionated, personal, vitriolic lot . it makes for strong
discussions and uncommonly dynamic and valid relationships . of all the
fields i've worked in over the years - music, journalism and design - i've
never witnessed a group of people as severe and obsessed with their craft
as designers . and i like it .

but sometimes obsession leads to myopia . this brings me to the part of the
subject line that reads "duchamp" . i don't want to get into the zen of his
ideology but i do greatly admire his ability to suspend judgement and use
it as a way to advance his creativity - as he said, doing so is the only
way to reach a new vista in ones work . the idea is that once you decide
whether or not something is valid, you've forfeited the chance to learn
anything more from it . in his early life all he did was judge, maybe he
learned something ?

i realize i've contradicted myself here and i think this speaks to the
paradox of being a creative person . you have to be sensitive enough to
pick up those beyond-the-threshold-cues, but you have to be mean enough to
withstand the attacks on your work and some how not take any of it so
personally that you simply shut down . you have to be willing to jump into
the fray but be strong enough not to let it break your spirit .

don't change a thing babble . if people need to be nasty, they need the
freedom to be nasty .

>The list could then discuss, offer opinions, etc. This
>would give us all food for design thought and could even help the
>designers of sites under discussion.

this person must be stopped .

jeff faulkner

____________________________________________
TropE new media creative now up and running at
http://www.teleport.com/~trope
_____________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:45:57 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Style Sheets: Bugs in the Browser

For those using Cascading Style Sheets, I've posted a special report on the
nightmarish bugs which persist in CSS display by MSIE4.

The report features screen captures from Lynda Weinman's article in the
current http://www.highfive.com. In it, you'll see images overlapping text,
text overlapping text, and text and images overlapping each other.

No disrespect is intended to Lynda Weinman, David Siegel, the staff of
highfive, or Wired Ventures. The fault lies in the browser.

The report includes workarounds which can help prevent these glitches *in
some cases,* and a note on Joe Gillespie's upcoming Browser Brothers site,
intended as a resource in the battle for browsers that work.

Jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

a list apart (one daily digest for people who make websites):
http://www.zeldman.com/advanced/

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:46:42 -0800
From: "A. Hyde" <dpplus@teleport.com>
Subject: Discussing sites, apologies

Those of you who have sat in a group of artist critiquing your work know
that "I don't like it" is not a valid comment in this context. What is
valid and helpful for instance is:

1. The color doesn't work because...
2. The navigation is awkward because...
or on the plus side

1. The overall design is exciting and pulls the visitor in because...
2. The navigation is well thought out and leads the visitor through the
site because it...

Those of us used to this process could bring something to the table that
might help the uninitiated see/feel/experience and understand why they
"like" or "don't like" what they are seeing.

There is no doubt that we all know, usually immediately, whether we like
or don't like something. What we in this group can provide is valuable
insight into why we as individuals respond to a piece of work in a
negative or positive way.

A brief comment on the jodi site. As we all know experimental work, work
on the edge is the lifeblood of any medium. Whether we "like" or "don't
like" the site it expands our vision/skills in some way. The site is
somewhat reminiscent of psychedelic art which could be hard on the eyes
or the optical paintings from the 50s and 60s. Its statement could be
anti-design/tech or pro-design/tech. We just don't know. But its
existence is made relevant each time we discuss it.

A. Hyde

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:42:47 -0600 (CST)
From: cjholt@mcs.com (carrie holt)
Subject: [none]

Please take me off the babble-digest line, I can't keep up with my work.

Sorry.

carrie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:56:37 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

I'm a tad sloshed so you'll have to excuse me <g>.

I reckon that the the importance of the gaggaboo site has been blown
entirely out of proportion. It is not a benchmark ladies and gentlemen,
just as David Siegal did not invent the "one pixel gif". I mean, some guys
did it in the stix over here (without the streaming audio about a year ago
- - on a bit of a lame site admittedly, at http://neurostudios.com.my - which
is totally non-scalable) and if you check the most recent gallery at the
macromedia site you'll see a list of such 'honourary' sites which push the
boundaries even further, e.g. http://www.webtrips.com/home/index.asp

Many a site has been put up for review, and few have elicited such
impassioned responses as the gabbo site - which leads me to think that the
reason must either lie in the rather brazen claim to have redifined the
medium as we know it, or the dirt cheap prices ;) Sure, the design was
cleverly orchestrated - and I'll be sure to show it to the designers to
serve as inspiration - since creatives are what are needed. But the site
was not mindblowing per se - it was an intelligent use of circular objects,
which lend themselves rather well to such a ballet.

The site does have a point though - it seeks to make a statement (of sorts)
but primarily it is to sell the "company's" skill-set - which, let's face
it - are rather limited (I would use the word primitive but am very likely
to get slammed for that - and no my dear Paul, I am not being a nihilist
here ;). HTML is somewhat 'archaic' when compared to such feats as
demonstrative in flash - but HTML is still here. The point. Well, did he
succeed or not? I would say "yes and no" - since I would not give him my
custom, since when he exits the realm of flash, his HTML is shoddy to say
the least - and no, I'm not referring to the clarity or the minimalism of
the code, but the end effect - the HTML pages look decidedly dodgy - and
prospective clients that require a site that consists of considerable
content will mayhaps have heard of the terms "scalable" , "browser
compatibility" and "alliteration' - I think that there may be doubts.

There's a lot out there - the site was not revolutionary, it was well
conceived and reasonably well orchestrated - IMHO, if it had not been for
the audacious claims, I do not think that such fiery opinions would have
been brought to the fore.

Peace.

At 03:48 PM 1/30/98 GMT, you wrote:
>>Now, on a lighter note, can anyone tell me what the hell the POINT of that
>>website is? I must've missed something.
>
>Yes I think you must be.
>
>>If people have a problem with
>>Gabocorp's site, they oughta compare it to THAT garbageheap. Of course, it
>>could have some point that I'm missing, so I shouldn't criticize. And yes,
>>I waited all the way.
>
>Why must the site have a point? Surely this whole site is devoted to the
>unusual experience of the environment that's been created, and exploration
>of the unique graphical approach. I've always thought that
>http://www.jodi.org was a benchmark in taking a different slant to a web
>page experience. It's not trying to sell, inform or persuade you. Just
>tempt further. You either love or hate it, but you must agree that there's
>only a few sites like this that exist, which when combined with this level
>of thought, makes it something special in an internet filled with
>"garbageheaps".
>

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
- -----------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:12:54 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: duh (was: bugs in the browser)

color me stupid.

http://www.zeldman.com/bad.html

______jeffrey zeldman presents___________________________

furbo filters for designers: http://www.furbo-filters.com

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com ________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:11:31 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: re: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem + more...

>I seem to have come across a bug/problem in IE4 for the Mac. If you
>redefine the tag using CSS, and set the line-height property, IE4
>removes the bottom and top margins that normally apply to the tag.

We have discovered this, also. Basically IE4 ignores ALL tags if you
are using Style sheets. We've tried numerous methods and syntax forms but
IE just doesn't work right.

The only solution is to provide two tags, which, of course, gives TOO
much space in NN.

Another oddity in IE4 is that if you use a tag immediately before a
 tag, IE4 ignores the tag. The reverse of this works, though:

test test =

test
test

test test =

test

Yes, VERY annoying...

- -Darrel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:32:22 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: Discussing sites, apologies

>A brief comment on the jodi site. As we all know experimental work, work
>on the edge is the lifeblood of any medium. Whether we "like" or "don't
>like" the site it expands our vision/skills in some way. The site is
>somewhat reminiscent of psychedelic art which could be hard on the eyes
>or the optical paintings from the 50s and 60s. Its statement could be
>anti-design/tech or pro-design/tech. We just don't know. But its
>existence is made relevant each time we discuss it.

Point taken.

Ryan Ferguson
signacct@signweb.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:38:17 -0000
From: "Steve Hunt" <steve@tnet.co.uk>
Subject: Jodi.org - hhhmmm

Jodi.org garbage?

jodi.org art?

jodi.org important?

jodi.org influential?

jodi.org inspiring?

jodi.org promoting discussion?

> tell me what the hell the POINT of that website is?

jodi.org made a point!

spine...#

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:27:53 -0800
From: bnsDesigns <bndesign@jps.net>
Subject: typography question

Hi all,

We have a number of articles/essays on one of our sites for which we have
written an introduction. The general layout of the page is:

Title
Author
our introduction
(short horizontal rule)
essay

In viewing them, we noticed that it might be difficult to tell that the
introduction is not part of the original author's article. We thought of
setting the intro in italics, but hesitate since large blocks of italics
are difficult to read.

We would like to know if there are any "standard" ways of setting such
pages for the web, or what others have found works well.

TIA

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #172
****************************

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