Babble v1 184

babble-digest Thursday, February 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 184

In this issue:
Re: not good enough
Re: all that newfangled web stuff
Re: all that newfangled web stuff
A cool Flash'd site
Crossbrowser question-JavaScript Jump?
RE: Crossbrowser question-JavaScript Jump?
Flash stability...
Re: all that new fangled stuff
Re: department name
CSS width element
Re: babble-digest V1 #183
RE: babble-digest V1 #183
App Question-3D Studio Max
About the Webmonkey/Seybold Seminars
page/screen sizing tool for Mac
RE: Copyright Info
Re: About the Webmonkey/Seybold Seminars
3.0 browsers still dominate
Re: all that newfangled web stuff (4.0 browsers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:25:07 -0800
From: jeremy
Subject: Re: not good enough

>From: Juha Rudanko
>After asking people to review my site, I received an unencouraging
>flame. Everyone seems to think I don't belong to this list because I'm
>not a designer. I'm here to learn, but you perfect folk might not
>understand that. I'm just trying to be a better web designer, ok??!
>Maybe I'm not "advanced" enough for this list, as I'm 14 years old. At
>least I just got my first client.
>Juha Rudanko

Juha, just because you received one flame, certainly doesn't justify a let
down! At a young age of 14, I think it is refreshing to start graphic
design at that age. Here's what I've been taught: If you want to get into
art, and especially communication design, you need to take criticism well.
Clients will always tug it along. And often, the comments are not personal
attacks on the designer, but instead the work. But then of course, you
shouldn’t regularly have to suffer for your art, especially if you’re just
tapping into the fine arts.

There’s a quote I picked up somewhere that says "Care about people’s
approval and you become their prisoner." That’s something I always tug along.

- -jer

jeremy@superlink.net
ninezero8________ http://mars.superlink.net/jeremy
urbantales
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:32:20 +0200
From: andrey
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff

> good point . i have yet to see any really good clean elegant examples
> of
> the 4.0 stuff . i like what webmonkey has done with their body text,
> short
> of that the wired design bites IMHO . i clearly need to surf more .
> can
> anyone point to some cool stuff ?

i dont know how cool it is, you are to judge, but here is the site i
made for the Bryce contest, works for Netscape 4.0n. Might be worth of a
look... It will be interesting to hear what you guys think about it.

http://www.falkondesign.com/BryceContest

Regards,
a

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 14:47:56 -0600
From: jason kottke
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff

>>it just seems to me that with the addition of the 4.0 features, publishing
>>a simple web site is getting too complicated. i used to be right up there
>>on the bleeding edge...doing javascript rollovers with the beta releases of
>>ns3...but it's just too much for me now. everything i want to do, either
>
>hmmm...i believe that if you don't keep up and find new ways to integrate
>the new technology
>someone else will and you'll be replaced . bring on the high learning
>curves, it's what keeps the competitive spirit alive and the mediocrity in
>the rear view mirror . i think people are starting to think of web design
>as a diy thing . you know "anyone can build a webpage" ?? the truth is
>anyone can build a crappy webpage . it takes hard work and a lot more to
>design an effective one .

i'm all for high learning curves, but what direction do we go? do we ramp
up on the technology or the graphic design or the strategy or the interface
aspect or ??? what we do deals with so many disciplines that it's hard to
know which way to go. and unless you're an absolute genius, you can't
everything at once. i feel good about myself because i can code a perl app,
i'm handy with photoshop, i can code html in my sleep, and my interface
design and typography is steadily improving. but, i haven't really coded
any perl in a while and i'm really super rusty...a simple mailer app would
be a huge chore for me right now. if i add in dhtml, css, and all the
javascript that goes along with it into the mix, what suffers? there's only
so many hours in a day.

it seems to me that the solution is specialization. one person can't do it
all in the future. you'll have the design person that deals with graphics
and typography and interface design and you'll have the technology person
that deals with code. and hopefully they can work together and actually
build sites that work.

- -jason

http://web.0sil8.com
"high-octane web foolishness"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:17:25 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: A cool Flash'd site

Starship Troopers had a really neat use of Flash. starshiptroopers.com
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:37:07 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: Crossbrowser question-JavaScript Jump?

Dear list,
I am creating a site that has a javascript drop down menu for the
subsections on the left side of the page. I would like to know how to make
the selection in the drop menu go to its corresponding part of the document,
and I would appreciate it if there is a crossbrowser script. Note: I am not
too outhere in JS..I would appreciate a link to a site that has what i am
looking for so I may look at the code,l learn from it, and apply my skills.

Thanks,
Gil Kruger
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:39:59 -0800
From: Christopher
Subject: RE: Crossbrowser question-JavaScript Jump?

I recommend getting Nick Heinle's book, "Designing with JavaScript". Very
excellent source. You can also pick up great tips at his WebCoder.Com.

Christopher Schmitt
new media designer
http://www.christopher.org/

On Wednesday, February 04, 1998 2:37 PM, TheGilster@aol.com wrote:
> Dear list,
> I am creating a site that has a javascript drop down menu for the
> subsections on the left side of the page. I would like to know how to
make
> the selection in the drop menu go to its corresponding part of the
document,
> and I would appreciate it if there is a crossbrowser script. Note: I am
not
> too outhere in JS..I would appreciate a link to a site that has what i am
> looking for so I may look at the code,l learn from it, and apply my
skills.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:36:56 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete
Subject: Flash stability...

I have been following the Gabo/Flash thread on a number of lists.
Besides the fact that some people loved the site and others hated it, I
noticed something interesting regarding how, and even if, various people
connected to it.

People were going with Macs and Wintels with a variety of RAM
configurations. Some people stopped by with 28.8s and 33.6s and
connected with no problem whatsoever, and had the gabocorp site load up
quite quickly. Others visited via isdn and T1s and had to wait forever.

There was a lot of commentary on how it loaded including some serious
negativity about 'graphics-heavy sites that need plug-ins'. MAYBE, just
maybe, it wasn't the site itself, but how the Internet itself was
functioning at the time people visited, and especially how each
individual person had their computer/browsers configured.

And if, that is the case, consider this, even the thinnest, lightest,
most simple sites could be and sometimes are problematic. Just food for
thought...

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:06:22 -0600
From: Adam Strong
Subject: Re: all that new fangled stuff

I whole-heartedly agree. Who has the time? This is technology overload
at least from a designers perspective which includes learning all new
features for Illustrator, Quark, Photoshop, etc. and staying abreast on
the programming features that can now be implemented. Its great new
stuff but who has the time?
Where are the people who just absorb all these new things w/o effort and
have the time to do so?
Its mind boggling all the things yoo learn and then have to learn to "do
better".

a
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:12:51 -0600
From: Adam Strong
Subject: Re: department name

how about
visualnometry department
visiographix department
graphis department (make it Euro!)
artistiology (pronounced R - teeztee ology) department

- --
___________________________
This message is from Adam Strong
STRONG VISUALS
1508 Whittier, Springfield, IL 62704

Please email all responses to adam@strongvisuals.com
____________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:03:13 +0000
From: Struan donald
Subject: CSS width element

does anyone know how to get IE4 to accept the width
element in relation to text as

P {width: 300px;}

won't work in IE4 but it does in NN4. to be fair the last time i looked
at the w3c specs they were a bit hazy on whether the width element was
meant to be implemented for text.

on an unrelated point my brother, who isn't an experienced surfer, was
distinctly underwhelemed by gabocorp. i think there is a tendancy among
those of us who develop these things to be as impressed by the amount of
work that has gone into it as much as the quality.

Struan Donald
mailto:sdonald@lineone.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:38:37 -0700
From: "Matt Hickerson"
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #183

>While I was at art school I had two experiences like this...where a
proessional organization/business wanted some students to design. As
students, we took the apporach 'sure they are paying us crap, but hey!
It's
great exposure'.

I, probably like many others here, had the exact same experience, you're
young and need the portfolio piece, you do what you gotta do.

>Don't even consider this client...they are taking advantage of you.

I agree with Darrel but also disagree. You can't learn from a listserv
(no offense whatsoever to Darrel's comments) what being screwed in real
life can teach you. Sometimes it's good to get screwed. That's how one
learns.

I say take this client and learn what you need to do before you take the
next client. You will learn so much from getting screwed.

Take it from someone who was screwed by Nike.

"I can grab my ankles."
- - Matt
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:13:16 -0800
From: Marc Northover
Subject: RE: babble-digest V1 #183

I, probably like many others here, had the exact same experience, you're
young and need the portfolio piece, you do what you gotta do.

>Don't even consider this client...they are taking advantage of you.

- -----
I started out making very low wages as soon as I got out of college (damn....it is almost going
to be three years now!). It was back in the day when netscape didn't support the background
tag, and I was frustrated with mosaic because it couldn't center! but I digress. I only new
html and a little bit of photoshop. I wasn't making much, but I wouldn't change it for the world.
With the hands on experience I decided to take the path of a programmer rather than a designer.
I have moved from creating HTML pages, to basic email forms, to CGI applications, to database
connectivity, to .... you get the picture. The hands on experience is so valuable early on in a career.

Another aspect of this would be the possibility of getting referals. I attribute the 2 consulting jobs,
and numerous small projects on the side, to the hard work in the early stages of my career. Interacting
with the clients and showing your capabilities do wonders.

When I first started in this field, I would have taken the job, but right now I would hold out for more
money!

Good Luck!!

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:14:34 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: App Question-3D Studio Max

Dear babblers,
I was wondering if any of you could help with a plaguing issue. For
those of you that use 3D Studio Max for graphics and VRML, I have an advanced
question. Can I put a light through a simulated ice crystal and have it
become a halo? I would also appreciate any links to 3D Studio Max related
sites.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:04:59 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: About the Webmonkey/Seybold Seminars

Dear Babblers,
I have read about the new Webmonkey/Seybold seminars in the city (New York
City) and they seem very interesting. There is nothing better than to miss
three days of the eighth grade, believe me. After visiting the
wired.com/seybold there was something missing...the prices. Anyone have any
info on this>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:12:30 -0500
From: Chris Spruck
Subject: page/screen sizing tool for Mac

Saw this in the latest Download Dispatch from CNET's DOWNLOAD.COM
http://www.download.com/?dlmd. I haven't used it yet, so I can't review it.
- -Chris

A handy app called SMALL SCREEN can cut things
down to size and give you an idea of what your monitor-disadvantaged
friends will see. This program enables you to select up to nine different
screen sizes, which appear as single-pixel quadrilateral boundaries.
These unobtrusive outlines will remain in the foreground so you'll have
full access to your extended real estate, but you can slip your work into
that space in a snap to make sure it fits. It's quite handy for
evaluating other multimedia presentations, too. Small Screen is not an
extension--it is an application that occupies only about 45K of your
memory, so there's no problem with leaving it running all the time. Know
your boundaries:

http://www.download.com/Mac/Result/TitleDetail/0%2C4%2C0-20681-g%2C501000.html?d
lmd

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:09:33 -0800
From: "Thomas Paquet"
Subject: RE: Copyright Info

Quick note:

Once had a buddy who wanted to trademark a logo & name. He simply placed
the logo and name on an envelope, mailed it to his business/himself. He
said this would hold up in court as "legal" evidence that he was using the
"trademark" as of a certain date (as the US Post Office will date stamp all
mail).

Any lawyers know if this would be enough evidence to win such a dispute as
always seems to be involved with trademark issues?

What are the costs involved anyhow? .32 cents sounds reasonable if it
works?? ;)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:31:31 -0800
From: "Lawrence Lee"
Subject: Re: About the Webmonkey/Seybold Seminars

http://198.93.24.99/events/ny98/pricing.html

is the pricing list. I believe I saw the ad for the seminar in this month's
Wired but I didn't see it when I took a look. Anyhow, it's about $725US for
the whole package if you sign up early. There is another route by choosing
each individual session at $250 (some are full day/half day/seminar etc).

- -----Original Message-----
From: TheGilster@aol.com
To: babble@highfive.com
Date: February 4, 1998 7:11 PM
Subject: About the Webmonkey/Seybold Seminars

>Dear Babblers,
>I have read about the new Webmonkey/Seybold seminars in the city (New York
>City) and they seem very interesting. There is nothing better than to miss
>three days of the eighth grade, believe me. After visiting the
>wired.com/seybold there was something missing...the prices. Anyone have
any
>info on this>
[...]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:39:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman
Subject: 3.0 browsers still dominate

from Internet World 1/19/98:
browsers used by visitors to AdKnowledge sites on Jan. 8

Navigator 3.0 30.7%

Navigator 4.0 26.1%

IE 3.0 18.9%

IE 4.0 16.5%

Navigator 2.0 4.2%

IE 2.0 0.6%

WebTV 0.5%

other 2.4%

Jeffrey (who occasionally finds facts more useful than his own opinions)

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"Slick and experimental." - Mediadome

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 02:00:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff (4.0 browsers)

Trope newMedia replied to ..

>>the new 4.0 browsers have been out for several months now and i haven't
>>seen much in the way of people utilizing the new browser features.... i
>>remember back when ns 2.0 came out, there were frames and java and
>>javascript everywhere about 2 months after the release. people were nuts
>>about it...they couldn't wait to put the latest features on their sites.

>good point . i have yet to see any really good clean elegant examples of
> the 4.0 stuff .... can
> anyone point to some cool stuff ?

lance arthur's glassdog v.7 at http://www.glassdog.com uses 4.0 features
exclusively.
in fact, you can't enter the site without a 4.0 browser. (!)

a special "upgrade" function (invisible in 4.0 browsers; visible in older
ones) points users to upgrade links.

i'd use words like "masterful" and "tour de force" but my name's not roger
ebert.

suffice to say: designers here should have a look. it's a reinvention of
the web interface, pushing 4.0 to the max (without seeming forced or
geeky). damn good content, too. (not that the interface itself isn't
content. it is.)

b., c.

http://www.furbo-filters.com

http://www.zeldman.com/

my two sites above also use 4.0 techniques but in a much more conservative
way; ie., both sites are "double coded" (sounds like a chocolate bar) so as
to display well in older browsers.

the 4.0 features at furbo and zeldman.com are mainly css 1 and css 2, a
bitch given current browsers' reproductive faults (excuse the expression);
mouseouts (unfortunately, IE only); and newer rollover techniques (see for
instance the "disappearing rollovers" on the zeldman.com core page).

again, visitors with older browsers won't know what they're missing.

the double-coding to accommodate older browsers is based on the needs of
these sites' audiences (and the current dominance of 3.0 browsers, as
posted to this list earlier tonight). lance arthur's audience is different
(it's people like us), so he takes a more aggressive approach -- not that
i'm speaking for him.

jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

a list apart (one daily digest for people who make websites):
http://www.zeldman.com/advanced/

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

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End of babble-digest V1 #184
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