Babble v1 191

babble-digest Monday, February 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 191

In this issue:
Re: babble-digest V1 #190
HTML: Re: CSS compatibility issues
Re: Putting a signature on a site
RE: Putting a signature on a site
Public Service Web Sites
Re: babble-digest V1 #190
Re: Putting a signature on a site
popping out of a frame with javascript
Re: popping out of a frame with javascript
Re: Putting a signature on a site
RE: Putting a signature on a site
Re: Paralell sites

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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:52:53 +0200
From: Armand Niculescu <armand@starnets.ro>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #190

> Turns out he *just* downloaded the newest version of IE for PC (he sez it's
> 4.01, but the "about IE" claims it's still IE 4.0), and no matter where we
> went (Yahoo, Cnet, a bunch of different scripts at JavaScript archives, and so
> on) all the pop-up window JavaScript created an error. "Unrecognized
> Implementation" or some such non-sense. This browser just doesn't recognize "window.open()"
>
> So, since a lot of you use the window.open command to create a new window, I
> am wondering what sorts of errors you may have encountered, and whether you
> have come up with a viable work-around until Microsoft fixes its bug.

Oooh, yeah, I have had similar problems a short while ago with IE 4.0
(not 4.01). After four hours of testing with no luck, I have decided
to reinstall the whole thing (MSIE 4.0 with all bells and whistles)
and guess what? It worked.

So it's not a bug in IE4.01, but it has something to do with the
installation procedure -- I guess.

Armand.
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:15:51 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: HTML: Re: CSS compatibility issues

The best overall resource I have found:
http://www.webreview.com/guides/style/index.html
If anybody knows a better one please let me know.

Armand Niculescu wrote:

> Greetings...
>
> Now I understand why everyone (or at least most of you) stay away
> from the Style Sheets. Making something work is damn hard...
>
> Anyway, here are some questions regarding how browsers do (or rather
> don't) follow the W3C standards.
>
> 1. Does NS4 understand letter-spacing? On IE4 it works...

nope, not yet.

> 2. Can NS4 render a fixed background? A trick, maybe?

The only way to do it that works for me is to create a single background
image, assume it will be placed in the top left corner and do a no-repeat
on it. You'll have to tailor it to a specific screen resolution and it
*will* not allow it to be fixed, not positioned. But it can be done for
splash pages fine as long as you know the limitations and work around
them.

> 3. At least, can NS4 clip layers? For animation, that would be nice.

It will clip Netscape's layer tag. Not sure of z-index implementation of
CSS.

>
>
> I'm afraid I already know the answers, but still, I have some hopes
> for a clever trick.
>
> 4. Is IE3's (partial) support for CSS1 good for anything?
> Pages that look great on IE4 and NS are so messy in I3 that I quickly
> decided to disable styles in it with a script.

You can do very limited things. I dropped IE3 for serious CSS
consideration. Encourage your viewers to upgrade to 4.*shrug*

>
>
> See ya,
> Armand.

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Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:35:38 -0400
From: palmerj@interagp.com (Jen Palmer)
Subject: Re: Putting a signature on a site

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------241650A3692
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> website? Also, could anyone send me some links of sites that do have
> signatures of CEO's on the web so I can format the letter to that.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Gil Kruger

David Siegel signs each one of his journal entries.
Jen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:57:38 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Putting a signature on a site

On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 6:22 PM, Dana Adams
[SMTP:dana@studiowerks.com] wrote:

> ....Security concerns aside - I imagine her signature is on a number of
> public & private documents readily accessible to both insiders and
> outsiders alike. If someone was going to forge a signature they'd sure
> need a better sample than that given at 72/96 dpi....

Actually, the sample quality wouldn't be the issue, print quality would.
Since a signature is really just a line-art item, you could conceivably
produce a respectable printed reproduction, but you could (almost) never
reproduce the subtle embossing from a real pen. At least that's what
little I know about the subject.

> ....Why bother? Why must you have a signature? And to show
> what???" -sincerity?...

Yes, and more importantly, a 'human' touch. Believe it or not, the
majority of the people in the world are actually pretty suspicious of
these 'evil TV sets' we call computers. They hate computerized phone
systems, computer print-outs, you name it. Partly, this attitude is the
result of incompetent bureaucrats blaming their bungling on 'computer
errors.' More importantly, people have spent their entire life relating to
other people. Person-to-person contact is familiar. Contact with another
person through a computer, where you cannot see, hear or touch the other
person, is very unfamiliar.
Using a letter format is a way of adding some familiarity to the
unfamiliar. Adding a handwritten signature is a way of adding warmth. Done
properly, both can be good additions to a Web site, particularly an
insurance site which is aimed at Joe Consumer.
Insurance can be intimidating to consumers. All the jargon and legalese
can be damn near inscrutable, particularly for the average adult who reads
at about an eighth-grade level (ever read your health insurance policy?
confusing, huh? and your reading level is probably much higher than
eighth-grade). Anything that can be done to add a touch of humanity, to
make customers feel that people at this company care about them, is a good
thing.

> ....A signature is in reality an anachronism. We as a society still need
to
> sign checks, receipts, and executive orders but the signature really
> doesn't do anything - it's there for what *might* happen later, e.g. "I
> didn't really sign that, it's a forgery! See the signature doesn't
> match" or conversely "I really do get to close that account, see my
> signature matches". American express certainly does not examine all
> those signatures, they only will after you say "Hey that's not mine!" --
> check the back of most peoples bank cards, I'll bet at least one in your
> wallet isn't signed....

Signatures still serve a valuable symbolic function in our legal &
economic systems. While the presence or absence of a signature does not,
in and of itself, confirm or refute the existence of a contract, it is a
symbolic act that impresses upon both parties that a legally binding ag
reement is being made. It also provides one source (not necessarily the
best one) of evidence that a person is who they say they are. Like it or
not, signatures are not anachronisms, and the inability to translate them
effectively to the digital medium is one of the most significant barriers
to online commerce.

> ....Think about this for a moment. (tounge frimly planted in cheek) A
> letter, signed and presented on the web as a digital version of a
> printed letter really says - Hey there! I don't have a clue about this
> medium but I'm the one paying the bills so I think we should have this
> page with my picture, some words someone else wrote (re:
> communications department) and my signature on it so people will know
> I'm really sincere...

I take it your tongue got lonely, so you decided your foot should join
it? The point of a short, well-executed letter is, as I stated before, to
add a bit of 'warm-and-fuzzy' to an otherwise forbidding industry in what
most people find to be an intimidating medium. It may seem cheesy to you
(and I agree), but, in this instance, it is appropriate.
Is that not the whole point of design? To devise an appropriate way of
conveying the desired message? If the site was for a computer hardware
company selling high-end workstation components, or a graphics software
outfit selling high-end 3D rendering software then their audience would be
more technologically savvy, and less in need of the buddy-buddy routine.
Doing away with the conventions of the print world altogether might be
appropriate in that instance. Here, the aim is to reach as many consumers,
technically savvy or not, as possible. As there are more non-techies than
techies around, it makes sense to appeal to them. The use of a letter man,
depending on the execution, be appropriate.

> ....Don't worry about the signature, worry about the message. If it's
her
> company's web site it's safe to assume she means what she says and it
> really is her message.

Really? And I suppose you believe everything you read on the Web? People
view commercial Web sites the same way they view offline advertising: with
a hearty skepticism. Add to this a hefty dollop of paranoia induced by
alarmist old-media stories about Internet scams, and there is a very real
credibility gap.
Besides, the point of the signed letter is to add a 'human touch,' which
is not quite the same as sincerity.
You're obviously an intelligent, well-educated individual, but I'm afraid
you missed the mark on this one.

> >....Is there a danger to putting someones signature on a website?

Not really. As stated above, reproducing the embossing of an actual pen,
and especially the subtle variations in pressure exerted by the human
hand, would be next to impossible. Other documents that are signed with a
stamp or print of someone's signature, such as payroll checks, generally
rely on security features in both the paper and the printing to discourage
forgery. I've put signatures on Web sites at the request of a client in
the past and never had a problem, but YMMV.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Designer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:44:43 -0500
From: Kim Mantovani <kendiala@bway.net>
Subject: Public Service Web Sites

Greetings All-

I've been lurking here for a while and I have to say that I've picked up
some very useful resources from all of you. Now I have a question that I'm
hoping can be answered here.

I have a job interview coming up for a position with a local Legal Aid
Society. My experience to date has been working on commercial sites
designed to draw income through advertisers. In other words, I'm not really
familiar with public service sites. I've been doing a little research, but
so far I haven't really been able to find any public service sites that are
well designed.

Does anyone know of any sites I could look at that are *good*? I'd like to
go into this interview with a little knowledge of what's expected in this
kind of site, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Kim
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:44:07 -0500
From: Craig Swann <info@wyrd.com>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #190

thanks to Zaid and Lance for pointing me to some counter scripts, I was
wondering whether anyone has attempted to create custom graphics for
each of the numbers, and then have them swapped with the script?? Doing
something like this in Director I could attempt, but I am unfortunately
totally lost in javascript. If anyone could help me further, it would be
much appreciated.

Cheers,

Craig
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:33:26 +0000
From: Zaid Hassan <zaid@anthropic.com>
Subject: Re: Putting a signature on a site

Good point Dana. I agree with signatures being obsolete.

The other day I walked into a bank and they compared my signature with
the one
on my passport...which is about 10 years old. And the woman said "this
doesn't match"
and my mouth fell open. She said "but you wouldn't like someone to come
in and
forge your signature..." and I said "umm what about the fact that they
have my
passport? You'd let them go right?"

It's all nonsense, signatures are a waste of time.

Zaid

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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:38:08 -0600
From: jason kottke <jason@imationstudio.com>
Subject: popping out of a frame with javascript

babblers,

does anyone know if you can pop a page out of a frame using javascript? a
friend of mine is having problems with another site placing her site within
their frameset:

>things are not so good here. someone is putting one of
>my pages in their ugly-ass frame. would you perhaps
>know a javascript that would break it out of frames?

anybody seen this done or know if this is even possible? i'm thinking it's
not...

- -jason

http://web.0sil8.com
"third toughest in the infants"
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:09:47 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: popping out of a frame with javascript

At 11:38 AM 2/9/98 -0600, jason kottke wrote:
>does anyone know if you can pop a page out of a frame using javascript? a
>friend of mine is having problems with another site placing her site within
>their frameset:
>
>>things are not so good here. someone is putting one of
>>my pages in their ugly-ass frame. would you perhaps
>>know a javascript that would break it out of frames?

Looks like I'll be adding this one, and all it's permutations to the
BabbleFAQ (yes, I'm still working on it, but I've been extremely busy
between my job, moving to a new apartment, and generally trying to have a
life).

This is pretty much the reverse of the problem caused by search engines
providing links to documents that should normally be displayed in a
frameset. Here is one way to solve the problem your friend is having.

In the HEAD of the HTML file containing the the frameset that should be at
the top level put this little piece of code:

<SCRIPT LANGUAGE=JavaScript>
if (top != self) { top.location = self.location; }
</SCRIPT>

This will force the browser to always load that document at the top level.

Hope this helps. :)
- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/

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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:23:11 -0500
From: Dana Adams <dana@studiowerks.com>
Subject: Re: Putting a signature on a site

About the only thing we can agree upon is the likelyhood that someone is
going to use the signature from a web page for forgery is minimal.

You went on about the "human touch" a signature can convey - my previous
assertion was incorrect, on this we can *also* can agree. A full color
digital reproduction of the _Declaration of Independence_ replete with
signatures is important and valuable. That is an historical document --
which is precisely my point, it's a document and deserves representation
as such. If the textual content of that document were reproduced on the
web I would not expect to see the signatures in graphical form - what
would be the point? A written signature is a physical, concrete (albiet
thin) thing and belongs - in context - with other physical, concrete
things.

I suppose if the CEO were to print out the document on letterhead, sign
it, have it scanned and then post the image on the web then the
signature would *really* have a place. But sticking a graphic of a
signature at the end of an HTML "letter" - even if David Siegel does it
- - doesn't provide "the human touch" you're so strongly supporting in
your argument. In fact, IMHO, it is the antithesis of "the human touch".
Is not keeping things in context an essential design goal?

BTW, your sharp barbed comment: "I take it your tongue got lonely, so
you decided your foot should join it?" was very funny! - ROTFLOL, may I
use this in the future?

I love lively discussions!
- --

Dana Adams - studiowerks
http://www.studiowerks.com
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:24:06 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Putting a signature on a site

On Monday, February 09, 1998 12:23 PM, Dana Adams
[SMTP:dana@studiowerks.com] wrote:
> ....A full color
> digital reproduction of the _Declaration of Independence_ replete with
> signatures is important and valuable. That is an historical document --
> which is precisely my point, it's a document and deserves representation
> as such. If the textual content of that document were reproduced on the
> web I would not expect to see the signatures in graphical form - what
> would be the point? A written signature is a physical, concrete (albiet
> thin) thing and belongs - in context - with other physical, concrete
> things....

Most people only have experience with concrete things. If you haven't
done so recently, try surfing the Web with a 'puter neophyte. I watched my
aunt recently, and in the absence of underlined text or beveled/shaded
'buttons,' she hunted and clicked randomly on text because there was
nothing to 'press' (BTW, the woman's been surfing for about a year and has
a MS in education, so she's neither completely ignorant nor stupid). After
40 years of pressing buttons with her finger, the jump to clicking them
with a mouse wasn't too tough, but the concept of clicking on a plain bit
of text, well, that took a bit more time.
Perhaps 'human touch' wasn't the best word (mmmm, boot leather...).
'Familiarity,' perhaps? I agree 100% that simply mimicking a paper letter
on a Web site isn't really using the potential of the online medium.
However, an insurance site is not targeted solely (or even primarily) at
individuals comfortable enough with the computer environment to give up
the crutch of real-world metaphors entirely.

> ....Is not keeping things in context an essential design goal?

I dunno. I think pulling things out of context is often a very effective
design technique. How about the bottlecaps that were scanned and used as
buttons on the Underground Music Archive site?

> BTW, your sharp barbed comment: "I take it your tongue got lonely, so
> you decided your foot should join it?" was very funny! - ROTFLOL, may I
> use this in the future?

All comments I make may be re-used at will subject to an appropriate
royalty payment, either per-use, per-time or a permanent license to reuse.
Please contact Dumb-Ass Remarks, Ltd. for details. ;-)

> I love lively discussions!

Me too.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Designer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:34:25 +0200
From: Hanan Cohen <hananc@bashan.co.il>
Subject: Re: Paralell sites

Our company had a different-similar problem.
We had one database that had to be viewed using two different designs
for two clients. This is government stuff so it was 100% ethical.
(They are in Hebrew so there is no point in directing you there)

We have used aliases on the server.

The basic data and shared elements were at the alias /Main/
The first view elements were at the alias /One/
The second view elements were at the alias /Two/
(of course I make it simple for the sake of clarity)

You can href a page named /One/html/one.html that has an image which is
at /Main/img/Image.gif

Or you can href a page named /Main/html/main.html with an image which is
at /One/img/one.gif

Aliases are a great tool. If you can set up the server as you want to,
that's the way to do it.

Don't hesitate creating LOTS of sub-directories. They are hard to type
but very easy to remember and recognize.

Don't forget to use a site management tool such as F...P...

Good Luck

- --
Hanan Cohen
Bashan Systems - Jerusalem
Kibbutz Tamuz - Beit Shemesh

***Love and Peace***
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End of babble-digest V1 #191
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