Babble v1 199

babble-digest Thursday, February 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 199

In this issue:
Re: ugly borders within clientside clickmaps
Re: babble-digest V1 #197
RE: Explorer scripting ?!?
RE: Explorer scripting ?!?
Re: Inspiration & Theft
Re: Inspiration & Theft
re: question about not using URLs at times
Re: Mac and IE4 problems
Site Critique
RE: Inspiration & Theft
Only the strong will survive
Re: Portfolio sites
Re: Only the strong will survive
Listing certain directories in server folders via CGI?
Type quality for web images
Re: babble-digest V1 #198
URL/domain name/trademark court case
HTML?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:58:48 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: ugly borders within clientside clickmaps

Hi Raoul,

I think it's just an MSIE extra. Something to do with everything being
objects on the page (again, I think :). Can't be rectified - if it annoys
you tremendously I don't seem to remember seeing this happen on server
side, but that's an extra call to the server.

Not much help I know, but just so you know we're reading you.

At 11:14 AM 2/12/98 +0100, Raoul Cannemeijer wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>When a clientside image map is generated, it creates the outline of the
>click area after clicking on your preferred option.
>It is very ugly with a navigation image that stays permanent on the
>page, for example in a bottom frame.
>Design wise it is a complete disaster!
>
>Is there a way to turn this off?
>
>Best regards,
>
>
>Raoul Cannemeijer

-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:18:12 +0000
From: awilson <awilson@digev.com>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #197

another critique request --

my band's site, which has "evolved" over the years is in need of some serious
expert critique. i've asked the people i work with, but their opinions aren't harsh enough. the congregation site is the main one, with my other band's site haphazard
being in it's infancy. if you'd like to critique one or both, have at it.

the URLs -

http://www.thecongregation.com
http://www.primenet.com/~biscuit/hz1.html

thanks,
andy wilson

- --

andy wilson \ graphic designer
digital evolution / brentwood, ca.
awilson@digev.com \ http://www.digev.com

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:15:27 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Explorer scripting ?!?

On Thursday, February 12, 1998 10:59 AM, Junior van der Stel
[SMTP:junior@limage-dangereuse.nl] wrote:
> ...my question is a bit general. Does anyone know of a site or a book
> where you can "translate" Netscape javascript into Explorer scripting,
> jscript or vb script or whatever....

For documentation on IE's JScript and VBScript, go to
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/, and select the appropriate language
from the 'Products: Languages' section.
For a discussion of object- and event-model incompatibilities, go to
http://developer.netscape.com/library/articles/index.html, click the
JavaScript link in the contents frame, and then check out the articles by
Danny Goodman. They include discussions of server- and client-side
scripting, as well as a compatibility guide in PDF format.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Designer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:15:55 -0800
From: "Anita Rowland (S&T Onsite)" <a-anitar@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Explorer scripting ?!?

I'm a big fan of http://www.insidedhtml.com/

the WriteOnce section is all about cross-platform scripting.

(disclaimer: Scott Isaacs, the site owner and author, is a team mate. but he
has got the right stuff!)

Anita Rowland mailto:anitar@halcyon.com
Home page -> http://www.halcyon.com/anitar/welcome.html
Anita's Book of Days -> http://www.halcyon.com/anitar/journal/
Seattle Cacophony Society -> http://www.halcyon.com/anitar/cacoph.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Junior van der Stel [SMTP:junior@limage-dangereuse.nl]
> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 1998 8:59 AM
> To: babble@highfive.com
> Subject: Explorer scripting ?!?
>
> Hello,
>
> my question is a bit general. Does anyone know of a site or a book where
> you can
> "translate" Netscape javascript into
> Explorer scripting, jscript or vb script or whatever. I'm not looking for
> a
> program, just for some documentation on
> how Explorer scripting works and maybe some alternatives for standard
> Netscape
> javascript.
>
> I like my pages to be accesable to both Netscape and Explorer users, both
> most of
> my nice ideas only work for
> Netscape users.
>
> Anyone a suggestion??
>
> Junior
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:35:26 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: Re: Inspiration & Theft

whoa . . .

I obviously have a little explaining to do. I can see now that it was
irresponsible to post the design I was playing with since it so closely
resembled Lance's design at Glassdog. Yes, I was turned on by Glassdog's
site which inspired me to play with this frameset model. But hear me
out. I have no intention of "flipping" the design and running with it. I
have too much respect for Lance and the contibutions he's made to this
community. For that matter, I wouldn't do it from anyone's site. If I
was interested in going with the look-and-feel of Lance's site, I'd
contact him and ask for permission, with the intent of throwing credit
his way.

As it stands, my partner and I are pursuing many options in an effort to
create something cool and unique. In fact, <plug> we're creating a very
comprehensive product involving web design that we'll sell from our
site. Unfortunately I can't say more right now (my partner would kill
me), but when the time comes I'll post a little note. </plug>

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. Keep up the good work.

Erik
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:29:18 -0600
From: jason kottke <jason@imationstudio.com>
Subject: Re: Inspiration & Theft

good post...why don't more people respond to the good posts?

>The difficulty here is that, unfortunately, people *can* take a design,
>flip it, and call it their own. It is much the same as a musician taking
>someone else's 8-note progression, changing the 8th note and calling it a
>new song. And the copyrightability of "look and feel" has never been
>settled in a court of law. The case of Lotus vs. Borland over 123 vs.
>Quattro Pro was settled out of court. Copyright, under these
>circumstances, will not protect you.

if look and feel were copyrightable, every ad, web, multimedia, marketing,
& typographic agency in world would be in court suing each other until the
year 2056. everyone copies, borrows, steals, modifies, etc. it's
unavoidable... nearly everything has been spoken, thought, written, &
designed. and it takes a special person to truly come up with something
original, and when people see that it is original and cool and innovative,
they say, "hey, i should be doing what she's doing. that's so damn cool."
and everyone copies her.

but, the problem with copies is that they rarely live up to the promise of
the original. copies lack passion, they lack inspiration, they lack heart,
they lack conviction. if you look long enough and close enough, copies
crumble. in the instance currently before this court, the rollover here:

http://www.abmworldlink.com/redo/index.html

is vastly inferior to the rollover here:

http://www.glassdog.com

the copy lacks lance's flash and panache...there's no feeling behind it.
and there's no consistency...take a look at the kerning on the letters when
you rollover on the copy...it's all over the place. on glassdog, the
kerning is consistent (or it appears to be consistent) and when you
rollover the buttons, it's smooth and fluid.

i guess what it all boils down to is that you can effectively copy ideas
and concepts, but it is nearly impossible to copy quality & feeling.
glassdog is cool because it's got some feeling (lance cares, dammit) &
quality design behind it; in comparison, the copy is just a pale
imitation...and people will be able to tell the difference.

- -jason

http://web.0sil8.com
"web sites have feelings too."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:51:25 -0500
From: Victor Chan <cynical@stigma.com>
Subject: re: question about not using URLs at times

>I think it could be that web site developers do not want to risk losing
the
>visitor to the other sites, or possibly they want to ensure that the
>visitor see what they want them to see. This way, they can control the

>experience of their visitor.
>- -Aim

>> From: Antony Richards <antony@mcmann-tate.com.au>
>>
>> Why is it that 95% of online web portfolios I see aren't linked to
the
>> actual sites? It's baffling to me as it seems to bypass a major
function of
<snip>

In response to Antony and to follow up Aimee's response (nice to see
another Canuck on the list, btw), a major reason is the mercurial nature

of the web. That is, change.

Sites change often and when they do, studios that link to their clients
suddenly lose portions of their portfolio. I find that the best way to
preserve a consistent archive of your work is to hang on to copies
of it yourself. I'd also suggest discussing with your client that it's
alright to replicate their site onto yours for portfolio reasons. If you can't,

see if the client will allow you to use screenshots and write
up some documentation regarding the process and objective(s).

regards,
Victor
s t i g m a

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:08:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Patricia <prism@lightspeed.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Mac and IE4 problems

Hey y'all.

Thanks to all those people who responded to my CSS/IE4/MAC dilemma. I tried
ALL your suggestions, however, none of them so far have solved the problem
of CSS not displaying in IE4 on a MAC... although it's clearly working on
your PC's ;-) (glad to hear)

Any other Mac people out there having problems with IE4 not displaying their
style sheet?

Patricia
prism@lightspeed.bc.ca
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:26:16 -0500
From: Del Conte <ddelcon@voicenet.com>
Subject: Site Critique

Fellow Babblers,

I have recently redone my company's main site. The company is in its
infant stage. I am looking for any comments you have on the design of the
site rather than the information. In the next few weeks, the information
will be changing. Please send me all comments on the site's design. Thank
You.

/----\ |---\ Derek Del Conte - derek@gambitdesign.com
| | \ Gambit Design Internet Services
| __ | / http://www.gambitdesign.com
\____/ |___/ 610-347-1149
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:06:33 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <larthur@dbtinc.com>
Subject: RE: Inspiration & Theft

>From: Erik Kittlaus [mailto:erik@unidial.com]
>Subject: Re: Inspiration & Theft
>
>I have no intention of "flipping" the design and running with it. I
>have too much respect for Lance and the contibutions he's made to this
>community. For that matter, I wouldn't do it from anyone's site. If I
>was interested in going with the look-and-feel of Lance's site, I'd
>contact him and ask for permission, with the intent of throwing credit
>his way.

I suspected this to be the case, only because it isn't the first time a
non-public site was inadvertantly publicized that looked rather a lot
like something I'd already done. (I had encountered the site a few days
back by following a link from my referer logs, so I knew it was there
before anyone mentioned it, but thanks for looking out for me! The 'dog
has spies everywhere.. mwah ha ha ha ha!) I probably came off sounding
angrier than I was due to that repetitive theme, and I apologize to Erik
and the list members for stirring up a potential hornet's nest where
none existed.

Lance
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:48:38 -0600
From: "Allen Ayres" <AllenAyres@prodigy.net>
Subject: Only the strong will survive

Hello,
I am interested in doing some flash sites and was wondering if you guys can
check this site for a discussion on its (flash) merits for web sites for
business uses...
http://www.members.home.net/headlight

I can understand the need for "wow" for a designer's site (glassdog and
soulflare are excellent!), but if the site (headlight) brings the average
computer to its knees, then what is the purpose? The download was only 40k,
but my lil' p133 dell notebook with 40m ram could barely spit the movie back
at me....
For those with flash experience, where do we draw the line in flash site
complexity so the average surfer can enjoy it.... does it have to do with
too much info in such a small package? The site doesn't have sound (at least
I didn't hear it), so the video must be really doing a number on my cpu....
I backed out after less than a minute.

Allen Ayres

- - www.pd-newmedia.com - coming soon

- - "Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard disk?"

- - "I almost saw Elvis, then my shovel broke"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:16:17 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Re: Portfolio sites

There's been some discussion about why portfolio sites tend to be separate.
I've wondered this myself. I have no problem linking to the sites I've
done, I just make sure I put a TARGET="_blank" in the HREF so the visitor
isn't swept away from my site. I also include screenshots. Check out my
site if you want, I'm always all ears for opinions.
____________________
PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
a limited liability company
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 17:38:23 -0500
From: Matthew Snow <snow@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Only the strong will survive

>Hello,
>I am interested in doing some flash sites and was wondering if you guys can
>check this site for a discussion on its (flash) merits for web sites for
business uses...
>http://www.members.home.net/headlight
>
>I can understand the need for "wow" for a designer's site (glassdog and
>soulflare are excellent!), but if the site (headlight) brings the average
>computer to its knees, then what is the purpose? The download was only 40k,
>but my lil' p133 dell notebook with 40m ram could barely spit the movie back
>at me....

my powermac reached out and slapped me when i went to this site, and then
it proceeded to cry itself to sleep. this site doen't make good use of
flash's capabilities. flash is meant to allow fast animation and
interactivity based on vector images.

>For those with flash experience, where do we draw the line in flash site
>complexity so the average surfer can enjoy it.... does it have to do with
>too much info in such a small package? The site doesn't have sound (at least
>I didn't hear it), so the video must be really doing a number on my cpu....
>I backed out after less than a minute.

just like any medium, the content has to drive the design, and if the
content stinks, well...

i am personally looking forward to the day when we can design a whole
site in flash and NOT have to worry about who can or can't see it, or who
is too lazy to download the plug-in.
until then, there is always the "non-flash" site as an alternative.

i would never draw the line in flash site complexity. then again, i don't
think moving the whole gigantic background image across the screen as
being complex :)

as far as file size, well, if you know what you are doing then it
shouldn't be an issue.

matt

snow design
portland, maine.
207.774.5452
snow@maine.rr.com
http://home.maine.rr.com/snow

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:34:26 -0500
From: "Scott Clark" <sclark1@gte.net>
Subject: Listing certain directories in server folders via CGI?

I will be transporting documents from a LAN to an ISP web server via FTP on
a schedule in an automated fashion. User saves document, and two hours
later, voila! the file's on the web. These are not computer professionals,
so I don't want my users using FTP to get to files on this web, but I want a
dynamic way of viewing directory contents of my choosing so they can get
them.

Is there a good CGI script which will allow certain web pages to "list" the
files in certain directories without giving file-directory-browing access to
users? Then I'd like to make the resultant list actually have links to the
documents themselves. When a new document is posted, the served HTML
document would have a link to the new posted file (and links to those there
before). Listed by filename is ok.

thanks all.

Scott Clark
www.KentuckyWeb.com
scott@kentuckyweb.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:53:58 -0700
From: christina@ndesign.com
Subject: Type quality for web images

I'm relatively new both to Babble-Digest and web design so if this is a
remedial question, I apologize. I realize most of the Babblers are way more
advanced on web design than I;)

I'm working on image maps (containing six differently-colored type labels
for navigation) which will lay across a background image that contains a
vertical color bar at the left margin and a white background. The image
maps will lay across both the color bar and white background. Because of
transparency limitations and anti-aliasing the type looks pretty bad over
the color bar (it's adequate over the white background).

I created the type (typeface is Poppl Laudatio Condensed Medium)
in several ways:
1) Photoshop 4.0 (unsatisfactory, not enough typographic control,
anti-aliasing bad, not anti-aliased worse)
2) Illustrator 6.0 (better, more control, works best when type turned to
outlines before rasterizing in PShop)
3) Quark 3.32 (exporting as TIFF via Xtension to open in PShop, looks
better in PShop but once it's a GIF in a browser--yuk).

Is there Mac software (or a method) out there that will ameliorate this
transparency/type sharpness/readability issue--I've heard of type xtensions
(Extensis PhotoTools for PShop and Adobe ScreenReady, which has been
discontinued.) Are these better choices for creating better anti-aliased
type?

I appreciate any and all advice. Thanks very much ;)

Christina

* * * * *
N I N E D E S I G N
4040 Mill Creek Road
Healdsburg, CA 95448-9755

V / 707/433-3999
F / 707/433-2990
email / christina@ndesign.com
gregor@ndesign.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:47:47 +1030
From: rwilliams <rwilliams@webmedia.com.au>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #198

Hi all,

Question, (please excuse if this sounds trivial)

when defining a font <font face="arial,etc this seems to overide the
bold <b> tag function. I tried everything I can think of, am I missing
something here. Is there solution that works in NN3, IE3?

- --
Richard Williams
Graphic Designer/Web Developer
WebMedia Australia Pty Ltd http://www.webmedia.com.au/webmedia
Ph. +61 08 8346 3888 Fax. +61 08 8346 3400
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:44:54 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: URL/domain name/trademark court case

NOTE: this post is not about taking sides on a controversial personal
issue. The post is about trademark issues/infringement and the right to
use/register domain names.

Last year, Planned Parenthood (the non-profit organization which offers
a variety of family planning advice and supports pro-choice options)
filed a law suit against Syracuse radio host Richard Bucci.

Mr. Bucci (who is against abortion and a woman's constitutionally
protected right to chose whether or not to have a child) registered the
URL 'plannedparenthood.com.' He admitted in court that he planned to use
the Website to attack PP's position but said that at this time, the site
is not active.

Just recently, the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said in a two-page
order filed in Manhattan that it agrees with Judge Kimba Wood, who last
year ordered Syracuse radio host Richard Bucci to find a new name for
his Web page.

Mr. Bucci, a journalist and host of a program called Catholic Radio,
claimed that using the URL was his right under the First Amendment. The
courts on two levels have not agreed. This far-reaching case is
important, and has broad implications because it is about an issue,
trademarks in cyberspace, that has become very important of late.

URLs of interest:

Boston Globe article
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/wirehtml/043/Appeals_court__Anti_abortion_crusad.htm

InterNIC's new revision of their Domain Name Dispute Policy
http://rs.internic.net/domain-info/nic-rev03.html

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:48:53 -0700
From: Trope newMedia <trope@teleport.com>
Subject: HTML?

eyoouch! here's my problem: i've got two frames . i'd like to link to the
top frame from the bottom using a drop down menu . sounds easy enough, just
use the target="top" and everythings fine . BUT i don't want to link to the
beginning of the document, rather a place nested about 100 lines down (or
across in this case - again the top frame scrolls horizontal -left to right
- -) . i tried using the
<OPTION VALUE="sch_top.html #backgrounder"
TARGET="MIDDLE">backgrounder</OPTION>
in my drop down menu and placing the <a name="backgrounder"> at the start
of the paragraph i want to link to, but it keeps bringing me to the top of
the sch_middle.html document.

Any thoughts on this??? can it be done ?

thanks in advance

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #199
****************************

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