Babble v1 30

babble-digest Tuesday, December 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 030

In this issue:
Re: Oh my God! The venerable Joe Gillespie responded to my flame!
Re: Oh my God! The venerable Joe Gillespie responded to my flame!
Re: advanced design: letters from words from your letters
Re: Communications vs. Design
Design v Technology
Design v Technology
BACKGROUND IMAGE PROBLEMS
RE: What are your favorite 4-5 daily/weekly/monthly things to read?
RE: BACKGROUND IMAGE PROBLEMS
Re: Question of Ethics....
Re: what is advanced web design -- (was: let's talk about...)
Re: babble-digest V1 #28
Re: What are your favorite 4-5 daily/weekly/monthly things to read?
Re: Communications vs. Design
What about No-No's?
Re: Let's talk about advanced web design...
HOW? Horizontal line, variable length
Domain Name
Re: Communications vs. Design
Re: Directions in web paradigm and interface
Re: Communications vs. Design
Vs: What about No-No's?
Underlining of links
Intro, thoughts and needing feedback.
Re: What about No-No's?
Vs: DESIGN: The Role of Design (was: Damn Long Subject)
Online resources

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:32:04 -0800
From: La Bestia <bestia@bstudio.com>
Subject: Re: Oh my God! The venerable Joe Gillespie responded to my flame!

> REAL design is understanding the function of the communication and using
> the best possible method to accomplish it.
>=20
> (And there are even times when bells and whistles are appropriate ;?)
>=20
> Joe
>=20
> ____________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s_____________________
> E N T R I E S C L O S E I N J U S T 8 D A Y S !
> ringmaster@thecybercircus.com + + + http://www.thecybercircus.com
> [ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

If I may, intrude here, isn't it also true that in today's fast paced
technology there is bound to be some changes in the way design can and
will be executed? Since communication and language claim special
attributes of 'vision' if you will, then digital technology can throw
"Real design" right out the window. Therefore, is it fair to maybe add
to your comment? I believe that our world and perception of function is
no longer shaped by the designers nor by political vision: the power and
speed of technology play a big role and dictate the patterns and "REAL
design" of the present....

My 500 lire (Approx. 2cts.)
La Bestia
Best.....
G. Sannino
Creative Director
B S t u d i o
A New Media Development Firm
915 Cole Street suite 365
San Francisco, Ca. 94117
415.752.2893 tel
415.752.4891 fax
email:bestia@bstudio.com

http://www.bstudio.com
We Do Business in 8 Languages....How About You?
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:32:04 -0800
From: La Bestia <bestia@bstudio.com>
Subject: Re: Oh my God! The venerable Joe Gillespie responded to my flame!

> REAL design is understanding the function of the communication and using
> the best possible method to accomplish it.
>
> (And there are even times when bells and whistles are appropriate ;?)
>
> Joe
>
> ____________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s_____________________
> E N T R I E S C L O S E I N J U S T 8 D A Y S !
> ringmaster@thecybercircus.com + + + http://www.thecybercircus.com
> [ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

If I may, intrude here, isn't it also true that in today's fast paced
technology there is bound to be some changes in the way design can and
will be executed? Since communication and language claim special
attributes of 'vision' if you will, then digital technology can throw '
Real design' right out the window. Therefore, is it fair to maybe add
to your comment? I believe that our world and perception of function is
no longer shaped by the designers nor by political vision: the power and
speed of technology play a big role and dictate the patterns and 'REAL
design' of the present....

http://www.bstudio.com
We Do Business in 8 Languages....How About You?
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 09:54:05 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: advanced design: letters from words from your letters

Matt Picone wrote...

>advanced design: letters from words from your letters

>Interface
>Navigation
>Technology
>Experience
>Graphics
>Rethinking
>Architecture
>Text (substitute "Typography" if you prefer)
>Inspiration
>Opinion
>New Ideas
>
>

>No?

So we aren't all that far of the mark after all.

All I can say is that a print designer that ignores print techniques and
technology probably isn't a very good designer. Likewise a graphic
designer designing web pages.

If you don't want people asking 'newbie' questions on this list, don't
answer them on the list (you can answer them privately if you wish) and
soon the list will not get such questions - but then, where do you draw
the line?

Joe ;?)

____________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s_____________________
E N T R I E S C L O S E I N J U S T 7 D A Y S !
ringmaster@thecybercircus.com + + + http://www.thecybercircus.com
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 09:54:03 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Communications vs. Design

Luis wrote...

>Basically, a good design does not neccessarily revolve around
>communicating well. It revolves on understanding your clients and
>fulfilling your purpose. Identifying this purpose can sometimes be

>difficult, but that is the ultimate basis of good design, not
>communication.

Here, you have to differentiate between industrial design and graphic
design. The purpose of industrial design is to make something work
better. In graphics, communication IS the function - unless you are a
graphic decorator.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 10:23:13 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Design v Technology

>If I may, intrude here, isn't it also true that in today's fast paced
>technology there is bound to be some changes in the way design can and
>will be executed? Since communication and language claim special
>attributes of 'vision' if you will, then digital technology can throw
>'Real design' right out the window.

Technology can influence design, certainly. Throwing it out the window - no
way. Digital technology is only a means to an end, not an end in itself.

>Therefore, is it fair to maybe add
>to your comment? I believe that our world and perception of function is
>no longer shaped by the designers nor by political vision: the power and
>speed of technology play a big role and dictate the patterns and 'REAL
>design' of the present....

No. Concept and content are kings in my book. Digital technology is just a
technique like hand illumination was once a technique, lithography was once
a technique, air-brushing was once a technique, Quark XPress dotted rules
were once a technique.

When the technique is immature, the novelty value overshadows the concept.
But if you stand back and look at it from a distance, you see it for what
it is - an excuse for an IDEA!

The trouble with digital technology is that it means anyone can retouch a
picture, create a logo animation, morph two faces, create a web page.
Doesn't mean that they are any good!

Hopefully, all the digital technology cliches will work themselves out of
the system soon and we can get down to the real work.

Joe

- --- Joe Gillespie ... Pixel Productions Multimedia Design, London UK ---
- -- joe@pixelp.co.uk <http://www.pixelp.co.uk/wpdesign/wpdintro.shtml> --

[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 10:23:13 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Design v Technology

Technology can influence design, certainly. Throwing it out the window - no
way. Digital technology is only a means to an end, not an end in itself.

>Therefore, is it fair to maybe add
>to your comment? I believe that our world and perception of function is

>no longer shaped by the designers nor by political vision: the power and
>speed of technology play a big role and dictate the patterns and 'REAL
>design' of the present....

When the technique is immature, the novelty value overshadows the concept.
But if you stand back and look at it from a distance, you see it for what
it is - an excuse for an IDEA!

The trouble with digital technology is that it means anyone can retouch a
picture, create a logo animation, morph two faces, create a web page.
Doesn't mean that they are any good!

Hopefully, all the digital technology cliches will work themselves out of
the system soon and we can get down to the real work.

Joe

- --- Joe Gillespie ... Pixel Productions Multimedia Design, London UK ---
- -- joe@pixelp.co.uk <http://www.pixelp.co.uk/wpdesign/wpdintro.shtml> --

[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:44:23 +0100
From: Filippo Spiezia <filippo@ideagrafica.it>
Subject: BACKGROUND IMAGE PROBLEMS

hi, my name is Filippo,

I'm writing from Italy, I am a graphic designer and web master
and that's my problem : BACKGROUND IMAGE PROBLEMS

how to solve the problem of the width of a frame (in a complex frame
set)
when we have an important image in background within that this image
appear another time on the right when we enlarge the window size ???

I putted the advice to enlarge the window at =93x=94 point, but, I don't
like this!

The sites in question are (for example)

http://www.ideagrafica.it (homepage and mainpage frameset)

http://www.ideagrafica.it/140697.html

http://www.virtualservices.com

thanks a lot for an answer!
Filippo Spiezia
- --
******************************************************************
Ideagrafica di Filippo Spiezia, the Multimedia Designer
URL http://www.ideagrafica.it =95 E-MAIL filippo@ideagrafica.it

[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:48:24 -0000
From: Robin <rgrant@brann.co.uk>
Subject: RE: What are your favorite 4-5 daily/weekly/monthly things to read?

I've got so many I've made a web site

check http://web.perfect.co.uk/ - the General Resources section is all the
sites I go back to on a regular basis

Robin

Robin Grant
Production Manager
Brann Interactive
100 Victoria, Bristol, UK, BS1 6HE

http://www.brann.co.uk/interactive/
phone: 0117 914 6260
mobile: 0973 638 390
email: rgrant@brann.co.uk
icq: 362763

out of hours - http://www.perfect.co.uk/

- ----------
From: Marc Parent[SMTP:marc@desedge.com]
Sent: 01 December 1997 23:37
To: babble-digest@verso.com
Subject: What are your favorite 4-5 daily/weekly/monthly things to read?

Hi everyone,

I'd like to know what other Web developer and designer read.
What are your favorite 4-5 daily/weekly/monthly things

to read(news papers, magazines, mailing lists, newsgroups, newsletters etc.)
If it's online make sure you include a way to find it in your answer.

Besides this list I read WebWeek, the Dreamweaver
list(news://forums.macromedia.com/dreamweaver) , Builder.com, and IPPA's
mailing list(http://www.ippa.org/subscribe.html)

Thanks
Marc

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:28:38 +0100
From: "Cannemeijer, Raoul" <Raoul.Cannemeijer@fantastic.ch>
Subject: RE: BACKGROUND IMAGE PROBLEMS

Hi Fillipo,

Try adding black to your background image on the right site and extend
the width then to 800 - 1000 pixels. Since there are not many colours
used in the image the size will, hopefully, not grow too much.

Greetings,

Raoul Cannemeijer

The Fantastic CorporationTM
- - first in broadband multimedia -

Bahnhofstrasse 12
P.O. Box 1350
CH-6301 Zug, Switzerland
Tel. +41-41-728 88 83
Fax +41-41-728 88 80
Raoul.cannemeijer@fantastic.ch

www.fantastic.ch

Zug - New York - London - Singapore - Lugano

-----Original Message-----
From: Filippo Spiezia [SMTP:filippo@ideagrafica.it]
Sent: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 1997 11:44
To: babble@highfive.com
Subject: BACKGROUND IMAGE PROBLEMS

hi, my name's Filippo,

I'm writing from Italy, I am a graphic designer and web master
and that's my problem : BACKGROUND IMAGE PROBLEMS

how to solve the problem of the width of a frame (in a complex
frame
set)
when we have an important image in background within that this
image
appear another time on the right when we enlarge the window size
???

I putted the advice to enlarge the window at =93x=94 point, but, I
don't
like this!

The sites in question are (for example)

http://www.ideagrafica.it (homepage and mainpage frameset)
http://www.ideagrafica.it/140697.html
http://www.virtualservices.com

thanks a lot for an answer!
Filippo Spiezia
--

******************************************************************
Ideagrafica di Filippo Spiezia, the Multimedia Designer
URL http://www.ideagrafica.it E-MAIL filippo@ideagrafica.it

[ H5 Babble Design List Info:

http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 06:03:04 -0600
From: "Chana Campos" <writers@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Question of Ethics....

You have posted this as a question of ethics - and it certainly is -
however, there are also serious legal questions involved. I believe that by
continuing this association you are putting yourself at considerable legal exposure
should they be discovered. Hacking and stealing are often considered illegal
behavior, you know - and it could very easily look as though you were aiding them -
even indirectly, in their illegal activities.

Are you willing to risk your business for this company?

Also, what would general exposure of this behavior (and your involvement in
it) due to your business reputation should it be discovered...?

I would dump these people as quickly as possible - they sound like nothing
but trouble...

Just an opinion -

Chana Campos

*********** REPLY PARTITION ***********

On 11/30/97, at 5:05 PM, La Bestia wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>I just joined this list and from the topics I can say I'm glad I did.
>Seems very informative and supportive.
>
>I happen to have a situation that seems odd at best. I have been in the
>publishing and web design industry for approx.12 years. The reason I am
>givng you a little background is not for any thing other than to
>discribe how confused and utterly speechless I am.
>
>B studio was contracted to do a "major job" for X client. I say "major
>job" due to the size of the project. All in all it was 4 websites. We
>were under the misconception that the client had content, logos,
>direction..... Needless to say they did not.
>
>Ok so no complaints. That is why we are in business right??
>This all came to pass whithin the last 4 months, we have readjusted the
>contract and made arrangements for payments. This is my dilema. The
>client X has been avoiding paying the last part of the Phase I project.
>Phase II and Phase III, arrangements were also made for payment. (Really
>wonder if they will stick to those...or if those even are going to
>happen!) It seemed inevitable to me that they really did not anticipate
>their little "tiny" website to turn into this monster that it has.
>
>Mind you we have not suggested any changes or added anything that would
>not benefit or was not agreed by the client. So ok were playing
>"Katchup" for payment, all good and well. The REAL problem is we have
>just discovered that this client has been "hacking" into our isp and
>"stealing" ( I am not using this terms loosely) all of their work. This
>has not been released to them. To top this all of with whip cream and a
>cherry they have also "stolen" other clients work including our website
>and business plans of another client of ours......Whew!
>
>Sorry for such a long winded message. Let me explain that I am Italian
>and my English is not that good so I am trying to express this
>situation as well as I can. The other two principles in B studio want to
>have nothing to do with this client, and want to sue them for copyright
>laws and blah blah blah!!! I am in the middle. It is on my shoulders now
>and I have to give my recommendation by December 1st. I really and truly
>see other alternatives but I don't know whether they are feasible or I
>am just trying to be nice and not have any problems....Anything anyone
>can suggest I would really appreciate.
>I hope I do not give you the impression of a newbie I just have never
>in my 12 years in the industry seen anything like this before!!!
>
>Best,
>G. Sannino
>Creative Director
>B Studio
>A New Media Development Firm
>915 Cole Street # 365
>San Francisco, Ca. 94117
>415.752.2893 tel
>415.752.4891 fax
>email:bestia@bstudio.com
>http://www.bstudio.com
>We Do Business in 8 Languages....How About You?
>[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]
>
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:13:17 +0100
From: Alois Kastner-Maresch <alois.kastner-maresch@bitoek.uni-bayreuth.de>
Subject: Re: what is advanced web design -- (was: let's talk about...)

Steven Champeon wrote:

> I want to hear about clever hacks
> that reduce the maintenance nightmare.

Hmm, perhaps you should take a look at http://www.giga.or.at/~agi/hsc/
HSC is a HTML preprocessor that solves many problems of HTML: Automatic
width and height options for images (including PNG), HTML syntax check
(customisable), helps with links across deeply nested directories
structures (no more <img src=3D"../../../../../images/foo.gif">)
and is a "real" programming language. Until XML/XSL/DSSSL/whatever are
widely supported/standardised HSC is the best tool I have found for
maintaining large sites.

Bye,
Walter Dvrwald
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:49:39 +1000
From: "Stuart Robinson" <Stuart.Robinson@mailbox.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #28

Hello All,

I've been following all of the posts on various browsers etc etc and
thought it time to post a question for more general discussion.

I happened to follow a link from this list to the Glassdog site [

http://www.glassdog.com ] where I read a little ditty about "Web TV".

Now personally, I'm attracted to the internet BECAUSE it's not TV;
because it IS interactive, because it conveys SO MUCH information,
because it's not just a "super soaker" for passive, sponge brained
couch potato types (unless of course, you "Surf the 'net" for
entertainment value alone).

The Web TV company guidelines for designers wanting to make their
content available to WebTV users, are a little disturbing. They even
suggest using background music to enhance the TV illusion. My
question is: If this thing catches on (and forecasts say it will)
will web design be nothing but bells and whistles for the same old
video/tv content? If designers try to work within the television
paradigm won't their design be more like TV and less like "The Web"?.
I just believe there is so much more potential in the internet than
just another TV substitute. Who want's more TV? Please post your
thoughts to the list.

Stu Robinson

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 07:00:23 -0600
From: Shawn Freeman <shawnf@focus2.com>
Subject: Re: What are your favorite 4-5 daily/weekly/monthly things to read?

Sorry, a little late getting on this thread.

>Print Magazines:
>
> Print
> Communication Arts
> How
> Wired (of course)
> Macworld (very design-friendly)
>
Add Eye Magazine to your list. In fact, in my opinion, you should replace
Print with it. Eye is about 100 times better. Also join ACD and get their
publication. Really good.

>Online
>
> www.macintouch.com
> www.webmonkey.com
> www.highfive.com
>
CA has a Web site. salon.com is wonderful mind-expansion. How magazine
has a Web site.
Also see:

http://www.highfive.com/

www.fontsite.com (average design, pretty good content sometimes)

www.fray.com (an experience)

www.entropy8.com (looking sideways)

s h a w n f r e e m a n
- ------------------------
shawnf@focus2.com

http://www.focus2.com
- ------------------------

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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 06:39:17 -0500
From: Julian So <apathy@odyssee.net>
Subject: Re: Communications vs. Design

Luis Cota wrote:
> Basically, a good design does not neccessarily revolve around
> communicating well. It revolves on understanding your clients and
> fulfilling your purpose. Identifying this purpose can sometimes be
> difficult, but that is the ultimate basis of good design, not
> communication.

First time poster, blah blah blah.

If good design does not revolve around communicating well, then you've
failed your duty to your client. I'm not saying that understanding your
client or its clients isn't important. But if your design obscures the
message the the client is trying to send to its clients, then your
client is wasting its money.

IMHO,

Julian

meep! media inc. Voice: (514) 288 5948=20
Fax: (514) 288 3409
Internet and Intranet Consulting Email: info@meep.com
for Growing Businesses Web: http://www.meep.com/
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:28:02 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <lance@dbtinc.com>
Subject: What about No-No's?

I would enjoy a discussion about design, but I would not want to
preclude the "Hey, come look at my site" messages since that's what
we're here to discuss - Web Sites. We may never find people's sites if
we don't know they're out there. And since there's no Babble List with
all our names and portfolio stuff, how will we ever know what anyone's
doing? You can always elect to delete those messages and not go.

But, steering the message back across the double-yellows, I would be
interested in what people do *not* do. What do you specifically avoid?
Do you ignore all non-standardized tags, or use them on some personal
site only as a way to shake out the ghosts? Do you use plug-ins, or do
you think they're a curse? Is Java a saint or plague? Are there purists
who don't use <CENTER>, still? Must you be 100% compatible with every
browser out there, or provide alternate pages for every possible viewer?
Or do you throw caution to the wind, open up the toy chest and pull
everything out on the floor?

And - is this off topic? I still don't know what the topic is, I guess.

Lance
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:45:09 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: Re: Let's talk about advanced web design...

I have just subscribed and today spent the last hour sifting through
the pile of messages (more than 60) , trying to find something that
can be useful - designers sharing their experiences and knowledge -
for a better understanding of this "new medium" and its most

advantageous use. Of course (so I thought) this would include
discussions of new technologies and ideas on intelligent (or creative)
use of what's available.

I agree with Jonathan:

> I'm trying really hard not to buy into this flame war, but one minor
> comment is that when I subbed I was expecting discussion of rather more
> esoteric topics than I have seen on places like the WebDesign list, and
> have generally been disappointed. Babble seems to be just more of the
> same. I was hoping to see posts on topics that were way over my head, so
> that I would have a new target set for extending my understanding of what
> is possible and how to achieve it. To put it bluntly, I am on this list to
> learn. So far there hasn't been a whole lot that has made me say "Wow, I
> never thought of that".
>
> This is not at all to say the list is not a valuable resource, but it is
> not the KIND of resource I was expecting.

Let's all win.

Yalcin Yilmaz
yyilmaz@catapult.com.au
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:07:21 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: HOW? Horizontal line, variable length

Hi all..

I'm trying to get a line (not <HR> which is ugly and single color)
horizontally to cover 90% of browser window, centered. I need it
to resize horizontally with change in browser window size. I have
tried placing a blank frame on the right and left and using a "long"
gif (1400 pixels wide) in the middle/main frame and setting the
frame to no scrolling. It works for the purpose of the line "resizing"
but I also lose scrolling abilities (oh duh!) when my content does
does not fit vertically.

Can I do this with some JScript? is there a "onResize" event I can
use? Any suggestions? Single pixel wide gif with a variable for
the width? I'm afraid my programming skills aren't up to speed yet
in this field.

Thanks in advance.

| Yalcin Yilmaz
| yyilmaz@catapult.com.au
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:41:21 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Domain Name

>Are there any other reasons for having a domain?

One reason that I didn't see addressed is portability. Here's how, in a
nutshell, I sell the benefits of a domain name to my clients:

If you ever change services and have to move your website, your website
address will change. You'll have to change it on all your business cards,
letterhead, ads, brochures, pamphlets, press releases, etc. Or, you can get
a domain name, which transfers to the new provider, and nothing changes. Is
this worth $100?

Works every time. (And yes, I know, you could put a forwarding page up at
the old address, but that's unprofessional.)

Pat Flanagan Publishing & Design
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281
email: pfpd@pfpd.com -- website: http://www.pfpd.com
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:43:39 -0500
From: "Kristian Andersen" <kristian@intermark1.acsc.net>
Subject: Re: Communications vs. Design

>Luis Cota wrote:
>> Basically, a good design does not neccessarily revolve around
>> communicating well. It revolves on understanding your clients and
>> fulfilling your purpose. Identifying this purpose can sometimes be
>> difficult, but that is the ultimate basis of good design, not
>> communication.

Are you kidding me?
Design, especially in the case of interactive design, is communication.
Interface design and information architecture is the organizing and
structuring of information in an aesthetic and intuitive way. A designer
serves as the liason between viewer, consumer, etc. and the message. Can
the message be pure aesthetic?...Yes, but it should be communicative as
well.

Kristian Andersen
Principal
Viking Design

http://www.vikingonline.com

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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:44:10 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <lance@dbtinc.com>
Subject: Re: Directions in web paradigm and interface

An answer to all your questions might require a book. Since no one here
wants a book in their in-box, I'll provide a link and an idea instead.

Some time back I became frustrated about the very points you bring up.
The Web is constantly compared to other platforms, there seems no
Web-centric views. Sometimes it's a magazine, sometimes it's TV,
sometimes it's CD-ROM. It can involve interaction with the viewer, it
demands much in the way of patience (download times), it can join ideas
and conversations across political and geographic borders (as we are
attempting to do here), it moves, it glows, it speaks, it just sits
there. But I wanted to explore what was possible, I wanted to see what
others could come up with given an open landscape and no boundaries. I
wanted to see what could be made on the Web and could *only* be made on
the Web. So I started soulflare.

http://soulflare.com

My goal is to say to anyone "what can you do with the Web?" I opted to
say that whatever came out the other end would be art. I intentionally
avoided saying there were any rules. It didn't have to involve graphics.
It didn't need sound. It didn't need JavaScript. It shouldn't *need*
anything, but it should use the Web to accomplish its goal. So, what
could people come up with? What Web stuff was there that used
interactivity, and non-linear linking, and global connections, and
email, and lists, and mouseovers, and whatever the creator wanted to
make?

What did I get?

So far, not a lot. Most of the pieces are static digital works, meaning
they're pictures created with Photoshop. I exhibit them all there, just
to try to show what digital art can do - but there have not been many
Webcentric submissions. So maybe I'm failing in explaining my dream, or
maybe it can't be done. This was my barbaric yawp into the dark void.
I'm not hearing a lot of echoes in return.

Lance

Caleb Fuller wrote:
>
> What is your opinion on the direction web sites might take as far as new
> media paradigms go?

> How do you see this evolving? As yet, I have heard more about what the
> web is not, than what it is. Anyone brave or foolhardy enough to attempt
> a definition yet?
> Surely there is more. What application does the web have to arts,
> education, entertainment. Are we really creating a new media or just
> digitizing the old ones?
> What do people feel is the major limitation? I feel that bandwidth is
> currently a major issue. For instance, good or bad, television has set
> certain standards as far as animation go that people have come to
> expect. Irrespective, there are some things I would like to achieve that
> are impossible over telephone lines.
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Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:48:01 -0500
From: "Kristian Andersen" <kristian@intermark1.acsc.net>
Subject: Re: Communications vs. Design

>Here, you have to differentiate between industrial design and graphic
>design. The purpose of industrial design is to make something work
>better. In graphics, communication IS the function - unless you are a
>graphic decorator.
>
>Joe

Even in Industrial design communication is a central objective for the
designer. In addition, to making a product function at a higher level, the
design must communicate to the user how to operate and interact with it.
The designer of an industrial component must communicate something about the
value of the product and the company that produces it. Industrial design is
required to communicate on several levels, including: the products value,
perceived value, operation, etc...

Kristian Andersen
Principal
Viking Design

http://www.vikingonline.com

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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:48:41 +0200
From: "Juha Rudanko" <Juha.Bona@sci.fi>
Subject: Vs: What about No-No's?

Well, I have never used any plug-in's and I hate Java. Java loads very
slowly and I do not usually care to wait...the only thing Java is good for on the Web, I
think, is chat rooms.

I do not think your site should be compatible with every browser, it's fine
if it looks good on a couple of browsers. I still use <CENTER>, personally.

Juha Rudanko

www.sci.fi/~rudanko
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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:00:38 +0100
From: Dirk Jacobs <wwwadm@MPIMG-Berlin-Dahlem.MPG.DE>
Subject: Underlining of links

Alright,
this is something, that has been nagging on me for
quite a while:

With the support of CSS in Netscape's and Microsoft's recent
browser releases, I see more and more web sites, that use
CSS to remove the underlining of links.
I am pretty aware
of the fact, that this underline-removal adds to the flow
of the text (while underline always seem to function as a
stop sign inside a text) and gives the site a very elaborate
look, but

from what I have read in papers and studies regarding
usability and user interface design, people (more or less)
expect hotspots to be underlined. Some studies even said,

that one should not change the browser default colors for
link, alink, vlink, as this adds to the confusion of readers.

On a very technical site with high-educated visitors one can
surely remove link-underlines, as these people probably know
that a changing cursor (from arrow-pointer to the clicking-
hand or whatever) means a clickable hotspot, but on sites
with a broad audience (from the educated tech-savy to the
home user) like microsoft's web site, shouldn't one try to
make navigation as easy as possible, giving as much clues
as one can and therefore stick to the link-underlining and
default-colors??

I would really like to know, what others are thinking about
that and what kind of experience they made with such issues.

Dirk Jacobs
Web Administrator at MPIMG Berlin, Dahlem
email: wwwadm@www.mpimg-berlin-dahlem.mpg.de
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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:22:16 -0600
From: Kristina & Paul Kremer <over@spearedpeanut.com>
Subject: Intro, thoughts and needing feedback.

First of all, I wanted to send a big hello to all of you. So
"Hellllooooo...elllo...llo" (echo effect) from Paul and Kristina of The
Speared Peanut! We've been reading the digest for about a week now, and
we like it alot.

We strongly agree with Jason Gurley's statement..."there's just too
much developing in both camps for any one person to be the master of
both.
For the most part, (graphic) designers of killer sites decide what
complex tricks they'd like to do, then ask programmers to help them do it."

If you have the mind capacity to fully grasp both design and programming
(the new html jungle included) then pat yourself on the back...you're
going places. But we've found that we get alot more work done if we
concentrate on function and design, and let a programmer hammer out the
hard stuff. Gives us more time to really make things work.

And Newt's thought on template design is a frightening fact..."Designers
continue, but as sights achieve greater and greater size, template
designers arise as a cheaper alternative to building custom sites." .
Lately we've been contracted to do a lot of "looks and feels"..mostly
front page with sub-page template design. Why should someone hire us at
a certain pricey amount when they could get some kid to key in the rest
of their site for $5 an hour. So I guess we need to charge more for
less??

Anyway...we would greatly appreciate some feedback on our new site.
We've had the same site up since 1995 and are finally updating the
mutha. This new one uses frames, and a couple of large backgrounds. Our
main goal was to make this a nice simple presentation piece. It's got
some kinks, that we need to iron out, but please give it a look and let
us know what you think. Send e-mail privatly unless you think design
issues will be usefull to someone else.

http://www.spearedpeanut.com/2ndversion

Thanks a bunch...looking forward to getting to know some of you.

- -Paul Kremer

The Speared Peanut Design Studio

http://www.spearedpeanut.com

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:32:57 -0500 (EST)
From: gabby <jilted@garcia.thegryphon.com>
Subject: Re: What about No-No's?

> you think they're a curse? Is Java a saint or plague? Are there purists
> who don't use <CENTER>, still? Must you be 100% compatible with every
> browser out there, or provide alternate pages for every possible viewer?
> Or do you throw caution to the wind, open up the toy chest and pull
> everything out on the floor?

i just had a discussion with a woman who is extremely reluctant to
put PDF's on her corporate site and would rather HTML'isize dozens and
dozens of documents because she doesn't think it's 'fair' to make the user
go get the acrobat reader. I argued in favor of making the user do a
little work - if they went to the trouble to download and install a
browser, they won't faint doing the same with Acrobat.

Sometimes I think that arguments about users really come down to
the designer/page guru person being reluctant or lazy to learn new
technologies. It is, after all, easy to say that it's unfair to the user
if one doesn't know what one is talking about.

gabby

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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:18:02 +0200
From: "Juha Rudanko" <Juha.Bona@sci.fi>
Subject: Vs: DESIGN: The Role of Design (was: Damn Long Subject)

Um, so I first should think about what I want to say with my site before
designing it?

Juha
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:22:07 -0600
From: Megan Oldfield <oldfield@umr.edu>
Subject: Online resources

This may be more than you bargained for, but here's a whole slew of
design/web development sites that I have bookmarked.

http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/

http://www.htmlhelp.com/

http://www.lynda.com/