return to
dhamma writings

• Karma
• Forgiveness – A Merit Making
• Karma in A Glass of Water
• Karma from Dhamma Sharing
• Management of Karma: Ann’s question

The Buddha said, in not so many words, that the laws of karma are so complex that only a Buddha could completely understand them, and that time would be better spent contemplating other things. It does boggle my mind when I try and understand why some people are born into such desperate circumstances. I am able to understand that one is not always able to change what happens in life, but that one has much say in how he or she responds to the struggles that life presents. Compassion is such a big part of the Buddhist path, and, undoubtedly, forgiveness is a significant part of being a compassionate person, therefore, my question: Does the law of karma allow for forgiveness? On the surface, it does not appear to, but this would seem to be a contradiction. I would welcome any thoughts from my fellow Buddhists.

With Love / Steve

: The Buddha said, in not so many words, that the laws of karma are so complex that only a Buddha could completely understand them, and that time would be better spent contemplating other things.

That time would be better spent contemplating other things.

: Does the law of karma allow for forgiveness?

Yes but not always.

If A hit B and A apologizes B, B forgives A.

If A hit B and A apologizes B, but B does not forgive A. So next time B will hit A back.

If A hit B but A does not apologize B, B may not forgive A. So next time B will hit A back.

If A hit B but B does not know who hits him, B can not hit back to A. A still has his karma to be hit by somebody who may not be B.

If A hit B but A does not apologize B, B may not forgive A. But B killed C so C kills B back in this lifetime. B will have no chance to hit A back in this lifetime. A’s and B’s karma has to be postponed.

If A hit B and A practices Dhamma, A may reach higher state or may be born in higher realm than B. No chance for B’s karma to affect A any more. However if A forgets the practice, A will go down to meet B.

The above sample is just A, B, and C but actually we have made new karma every second with more persons. Karma separates to be good and bad karma. Which karma will be activated first is very complicate. That time would be better spent contemplating and practicing Dhamma so that most karma will be reduced or no affected.

This thing about karma is truly interesting. It is through understanding the law of the karma that we are able to explain things which we deem unfair. The Buddha in the "Culakammavibangha Sutta" explained to us why there are ppl who enjoy a good life and why some has to suffer. However, there are so many misconceptions about how the law of karma actually works. Some says that everything is due to karma, whether positive or otherwise. I guess it is true but for the fruit of karma to ripen, the conditions must be right. I guess S.F. gave quite a clear explanation on how the law of karma actually takes place. Well, karma is the best auditor..

A teacher once told me this...we must try to let go of the thought that we are conditioned by our past karma. The most important thing now is to cultivate and generate more wholesome deeds to gain better karma. Whatever that happens to us today, one part of it is due to our past karma, but more often that not, our present karma (that we generate from day to day) is the one that governs us.

Avine

Hello. I would like to add to the discussion on karma that the Buddha's accentuation is on karma ( volition and action) not on vipaka (results). The purpose of the teaching, in my opinion, is to show the way to happiness, not to show how to understand misfortune. Misfortune comes from tanha (craving)

and attachment. The cure is the noble eightfold path, ultimately, and in this moment equanimity, mindfulness and the cultivation of loving-kindness and other positive mental states. matthew

There were three insight practices of the Buddha during his enlightenment (the Threefold Knowledge):

1. Pubbenivasanussati-nana (Reminiscence of past lives)

2. Cutupapata-nana (Knowledge of the decease and rebirth of beings)

3. Asavakkhaya-nana (Knowledge of the destruction of mental intoxication)

These practices are closely related with the study of the cause, the result, and the end of karma. They are specifically recommended to curious meditators to practice as a simulating. The concept of these practices is to learn from the past to find the original cause of the causes and learn from the future outcomes to find the results of the past and present action. Meditators need special kind of meditation called “Kasina” for the first two practices. Asavakkhaya-nana practice is hardly explained clearly in textbook.

I believe that discussion on volition and action needs real insight that needs special practice. Otherwise our normal level of understanding may bias the analysis or we may discuss at low level only. However this topic of discussion is very interesting. Some meditation practice concentrates in how to see, cure, transform, lessen, reduce, change, postpone, dismiss, or cease past karma.

Thank you for your very thoughtful response. Your reminder of the Buddha's teaching on the threefold knowledge was food for thought. My intent was only to point out that some people become perhaps too concerned with the teachings on how their and others Vipaka was caused by Karma (although this too is of course a profound teaching) and not enough on how positively to produce good Kamma as a response to any and all Vipaka that arise, within the Noble Eightfold Path. Sometimes too much speculation can be a distraction from cultivating insight and wholesome states in the here and now. I'm sure you would agree. I am new to this page, but am enjoying your and others expression of your knowledge, and look forward to reading more.

Matthew

Forgiveness is not only a way to end karma at your side but also a merit making. After the meditator passes jhana or meditative state as deepest as he can, he should aim to give his forgiveness to all beings and his enemy. He should consider the good and bad results of having and not having Metta (loving-kindness), Karuna (compassion), Mudita (sympathetic joy), and Upekkha (neutrality).

Suppose that a person has a glass of water and the pure water inside this glass is his good Karma. However, inside the glass, there are also many dirty things that is his bad Karma. So his water is not pure. The Buddha had many methods in dealing with the Karma as followings.

1. Stop adding dirty things while drop more clean water into the glass. : Sila and Brahmavihara (Metta, Karuna, Mudita, and Upekkha) are this concept. However there is still bad Karma in the water and life is still subject to rebirth. When pure water is more then he has more chance to have better rebirth.

2. Stop shaking the glass so the dirty things sink to the bottom and he can sip the pure water. : Low levels of meditation such as preying mantra or recollecting good deeds is this concept. However there is still bad Karma in the water and life is still subject to rebirth.

3. Keep his glass of water in a safe place so that no one but him contacts the glass. : Becoming the Sangha or monk is this concept. However there is still bad Karma in the water and life is still subject to rebirth.

4. Take some parts of the dirty things that are belonging to others out off the water. : Forgiveness is this concept. Bad karma will be lessened when he forgives others and receives the forgiveness from others. However there is still bad Karma in the water that can not be forgiven and life is still subject to rebirth but not many times as before.

5. Stop accepting his glass of water as his. : Detaching is this concept. "Form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form" and “The body is not mine. The body is not I. The body is not in me. I am not in the body.” are the key words for practicing. When he has 100% detached, he will reach emptiness and no rebirth.

6. Purify his glass of water to have only pure water. : It needs very high technique of practice. Old Tibet practices Bon. Dhammakaya Meditation is also a practice in Thailand. The ultimate goal is to purify the body to reach the Dhamma bodies. It likes going to Nibbana with the purified physical body as bringing his glass together with his water to Nibbana while other practices leave the glass and the water behind.

For the time being, I can classify the Buddha teachings to be only 6 samples. You may have other samples and please add. I believe that it may be more techniques especially the techniques that interfere with other Buddhas. My samples are the practices concentrated more from internal of self-help than from external.

Keep filling the glass with pure water. Let the glass overflow and the impurities will flow out.

dreamartist

Very good idea indeed. I am serious about it. Let me share a method related with yours.

1. Instead of filling the glass with only pure water, drop a third substance that make the impurities floated above the water.

2. Put this glass of water to the center of Dhamma Wheel then turn the wheel clockwise as fast as possible.

3. All impurities will be forced to flow out.

This is a concept of Spiraling Meditation that you have just been a part of. Hope for sharing Dhamma with you more.

I have another one, pour out the water and there goes the impurities. No trouble, smile.

Kuo-Keong

A glass without water is useless when thirsty. Your idea is very good and should be done when someone does not need water anymore. There is a meditation practice related with how to enter Nibbana.

1. Meditate 1 st to 8 th state then meditate back from 8 th to 1 st state.

2. Repeat the first step at least 7 times.

3. Detach every thing no matter of good or bad Karma. No need for Form and Formless. Then Sunyata will pull the one to Nibbana.

Indeed, when someone do not need the water. Do you still need them? As the original is without water. I am quite interested in the meditation method above. But don't know what are the states you are referring since i have not experienced any state before.

Kuo-Keong

Metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha are very important factors while we Buddhists are trying to help and give suggestions in this forum. But please be careful because someone who asks for help may not have good intention for Buddhism and Buddhist. I almost stop posting into this forum because I feel too much attachment to the in-coming response. Sometime good intention to help may have negative feedback. Discussion turns to be hard discussion, debate, and finally negative argument. That is why the Buddha taught us to find the suitable place for practicing. Good Buddhist should have right speech or at least we should try. I believe that most of us here are trying.

Please be careful for helping someone who asks for help but he may not have good intention for Buddhism and Buddhist. This kind of person may show himself as a good Buddhist but eventually he will find the weak point in our response to discredit Buddhism. It is very easy to come back into this forum in another name. Some topic may seem to be questioning and answering from the same person with different name.

Karma has very strong effect from our discussion. The merit from sharing Dhamma is higher than any physical offerings. When we give money, food, and other material things to other persons, we will receive merit of good karma in return but this merit is less than merit from sharing dhamma. Why? Because material things can not help the one improve permanently as sharing dhamma.

In the receiver’s side, if he responses back impolitely, he will receive very bad karma in return. His bad karma will be higher more in relative with the better intention from the person who has tried to share dhamma. This bad karma will cause the receiver not to be able to understand dhamma sooner. He may have false understanding for many lifes. So please also select the right person to be responded back in order to help him receive good karma instead of bad karma. The right time for the right person is very important.

It does not imply that there should be no disagreement in the discussion. Disagreement can cause good karma when disagreement is from good intention and respect. However the word “disagreement” may sometime cause negative feedback so I prefer response at the statements I agree. I often open for possibilities and response with my idea without mention the word “disagreement”. I try not to write the word “you” or comment at the personality of other persons. I think it is better not to regard any topic as someone’s personality.

Please share your recommend and suggestion for our Buddhist forum on how to get only good karma from discussing. Thanks.

I strongly support Somkiat saying. In addition i would like to appeal to all fellow buddhists to respond with compassion and with understanding on the questions and to the questioner understanding. Reviewing this, i myself had made a few mistakes. I regretted and apologized.

I do have the same feeling with Somkiat as i almost wanted to stop responding to this forum as it seems to show more on ego than the essence of Buddhism. Pretty bad for Buddhism image for others and myself. It is quite a heartache for me to see it. For i do not want to be any near to become one what Shakyamuni Buddha had said "in the dharma ending age, people will wear the robes but will shit on the buddha alms bowl and blemish the teaching" even though i am a layperson.

Sometimes people ask a serious question and our responses seem to be teasing their intentions or understanding. I feel pretty bad for both sides as it's likely to create bad karma only with such a circumstances unless one party is wise enough to stop it.

I would also ask you to correct and remind me if i had not behave according to the eightfold paths and Buddha teachings in answering any of your questions. Thank you in advance for this.

Kuo-Keong

I've been having problems accessing this board today so their are a few messages I've tried to send but haven't been able to. I agree with both of your posts. Speech is more powerful then some may realize. I do think that people should speak freely, but with a good heart. Everyone should check their heart before they talk. Good educational discussion is one thing, but speech for intellectual feuds, ego sparking, etc. is only harmful to the speaker.

I have made my own mistakes in this area. I also encourage everyone to point out any "wrong speech". Many of us are intellectuals, and come from a tradition where wit and one upmanship are very valued. This is not, in my opinion skillful for the speaker, and can harm the listener, especially if you confuse or disillusion them. Like it or not we are all representatives of the Dhamma here, and should act accordingly, in the interests of all.

Somkiat- since my messages are failing to get posted I'm going to mention that the ball I was talking about is bronze-like and looks like a rolled up person. It is a charm or totem, sold probably on the street. If you can find out what it is I'd appreciate it.

Namo Ti-Ratana, Matthew

Somkiat: I read your thoughts and I agree with you. Thank you for sharing them with us!

And I think we all learned a lesson from such posters as Seth. At least I know I did. But I try to remain civil and polite with those I disagree with. Disagreement is a natural part of life, because we all look at life through our own little windows, and thus we each have our own "school" of Buddhism, if you know what I mean. But our self-esteem should not be threatened by another viewpoint.

Thanks again, and don't give up on this site!

Lupus

Thanks. I am hoping that this forum will be real Buddhism place so I try to relate every answer of mine to Buddhism concept. I have been regularly posting in this site for several months but after Kuo-Keong.

A natural part of life seems to be different in this forum or even in the same sect of Buddhism. Thai people may have some rule of life different from westerners. Some normal English words may make Thai people angry so much. We see life differently. I have to be very careful to write my idea into this international forum because I never know who from which country will read my posting and I am not very good in English.

While I am posting in this forum, I consider the intention of the person who posted his topic more important than his wordings. I propose not or hardly response to the topic that seems strange and hides his intention. Although I like to help all people but helping by posting is limited.

I would like to propose us to use Dhamma language as a sharing language. Buddhism has many things that beyond general way of life. For example Karma from Dhamma sharing is automatically response to BOTH sides. Not only between Q&A but also readers only. If my teacher or any noble one posts his teaching into this site without his real name and I have responded negatively (and quietly in my mind), I would receive bad and very bad karma automatically. I try to consider everyone I response with as my teachers because I do always learn some thing from them. Thai Buddhist has one sentence to response with something he does not believe or agree: (Because of karma)

“I should not say I reject its existence because I may not know all.”

Karma from Dhamma sharing is automatically applied on both sides no matter of wordings being expressed. So I prefer to play safe because I am afraid of bad karma so much. Discussion by posting is not possible to see the face and eyes of the person who read my short sentence. This is just my own choice, which is based on the law of karma. I like good karma so I select good karma. Buddhism has many many higher concepts that I never realize before. The more I cultivate Dhamma, the little I had understood Dhamma.

May I talk to you further at "...still in the closet...". I like to meditate so much so please see me there.

Thanks again and I try not to give up in this site. It depends on the reaction from the responses. Hope that my response will generate good karma only. 8~)

Three bows to three wise men!

Small addition: this one practice with posts two ways 1) as said under "precept slam" heading, if I identify quality in poster I do not like, then look within to see if that quality in me, then thank in heart poster for pointing it out. 2)Also could see ilusory nature of board, we post in dream, so not take any words too seriously, and 3) sometimes just see all posters as teachers, what can I learn from them? or 4) manifestations of Buddha, so respect and honor them no matter what they say.

Words, "hatred can only be overcome by love" very powerful.

For this one: Unattaching from judgements very difficult practice, also very powerful. Seeing other beings as separate from me, brings suffering - to me and other. Seeing beings no different from me, brings happiness - to me and other . Hopefully all boundaries dissolving so one day will never see an "other", and always respond with compassion to keep bodhisattva vow.

Know not there yet, and would earnestly ask, if any of you observe this one responding with un-compassionate words, please point out - I would really appreciate.

Love and deep respect from Old Hag

Ann asked me a very important question:

> Do you think we can avoid our Karma? Is this life predestined? Do we have free will?

Karma will be a piece of cake for advance cultivator. Karma can be avoided and managed. The Buddha taught us to get rid of avijja that included no knowledge of past and future. When we can see the past and future, we can win karma. This is one of the ultimate goals of cultivating Dhamma. At least when we have full awareness or maha-sati, we will be able to be careful in every step of acting. This is a simple way of managing karma.

We may consider karma as a kind of energy. When we do a thing. We make energy and this energy will be existed with both sides of the one who makes karma and also the one who receives karma. Only when both sides of karma meet together at the right time (lifetime) and the right place (realm), then karma will cause the effect.

A cultivator asked Lung Poh Pudh Taniyo (Luang = an informal phrase for calling Thai monk, Poh = father, and Pudh Taniyo is his name) that she had always practiced meditation and did good deeds but she was still afraid of her past karma to disturb her path. Luang Poh Pudh answered that if your mind was SPIRALED very fast then your small karma could not take effect. Only large and strong karma such as from INCITING QUARREL AMONG SANGHA or parental killing is very bad karma that is difficult to end its effect.

(Note: INCITING QUARREL AMONG SANGHA is ver bad karma so we should be very careful in discussing Dhamma in this forum. I suggest we should respond with “0” to the one who causes fire in this forum. There is a tactic in stealing other one’s merit from making other person lose temper and awareness.)

I am going to classify karma as a kind of man-made energy. This energy has its flow or pattern of energy stream. If a person never makes good karma, he will not have good energy to protect bad energy. Bad energy spirals anti-clockwise and good energy spirals clockwise.

When will karma take its effect? Bad karma will take its effect when the flow of bad karma spirals faster than good karma. Meditating is a process for controlling the mind flow systematically. Advance meditator’s mind is strong and bright. If you can see with the third eye, you will see the flow of the mind spiraling. This is the fundamental of Spiraling Meditation and the Dhamma Wheel.

Hope this helps and please asks any of your skeptic questions instead of rejecting this possibility. It is just another way not only one way.

> There is a tactic in stealing other one’s merit from making other person lose temper and awareness.

Somkiat,

Does the thief then receive bad karma for doing this? Please explain, as this whole message has been quite enlightening.

Blessings, Connie

It depends on how wise he is. I should not show more because the thief may know how from my posting. A penny may cost more than a penny for hunger.

After the assembly had departed, Master Pai Chang noticed an old man who stayed behind. The master asked who he was. “Not a human being sir, but the spirit of a wild fox. I used to be the head monk here. One day I was asked, “Does one who practices still become involved in karma?” I replied, “No, he is free of karma.” For this answer, I earned the karma of being reborn with the spirit of a wild fox for 500 years and have not been able to shake it. Please liberate me by enlightening me on this matter.”

The master said, “Go ahead and ask me the same question.” So the fox asked, “Does one who practices still become involved in karma?” Pai Chang replied, “He is not blind to cause and effect.”

The fox was greatly awakened and prostrated before the Master saying, “Thank you. Your answer has liberated me from the fox’s body. I live in a hollow on the mountain and would ask you to grant me the usual rites for a dead monk.” The next day, Pai Chang climbed the mountain behind his monastery, and in a small grotto, he discovered a dead fox for whom the usual ceremony for a dead monk was held.

-loosely rendered from The Transmission of the Lamp, this story is also found in other Ch'an collections. Shiloh-x

Last updated
01-12-2542