Kathryn Ramage: I'm finishing up the sequel to my Dukat-takes-revenge story, _Kh'rat-la_. It's called _Phren'atkli_. (These are Kardasi terms I made up -- you'll find out what they mean in the stories. I don't want to spoil plot points.)

I also have a couple of ideas in the scribbled notes stage, but I'll talk more about those in a minute.

KG: Oh, good. What inspired this?

KR: When I watch the episode _Cardassians,_ I always think that, after that scene in the classroom where Bashir questions Dukat and ruins his plans, Dukat should see Bashir as working for Garak in some way. After all, Bashir's only involved in this because Garak led him to all the important pieces of information and helped him put them together. In that scene, Garak stands in the background smirking the whole time -- and check out the glare Dukat gives Garak as he stalks out! He knows who's responsible.

They never follow up on this on the show; Dukat usually seems indifferent to the doctor whenever they meet afterwards. I wrote _Kh'rat-la_ to expand on my idea of what _should_ have happened (and, of course, made it slashy). _Phren'atkli_ just followed naturally from my thoughts about what would happen after that.

KG: So, there IS something to look forward to! Okay, I'm sorry for the mundane questions but how long have you been in Star Trek fandom? How did get into Trek?

KR: I've been a Trekkie since I was 9. I was hooked right away, but I was always at the edges of the fandom when I was kid -- I watched TOS, wrote some extremely embarrassing Mary-Sue fanfic until I was 10-12, went to the movies and watched TNG when they came out, but I didn't go to conventions or interact much with other fans unless they were already friends or family. It's only been since the mid-90's that I've been more involved.

KG: Did the internet play a part in getting more involved? And if so, then how? I ask because that's how I stumbled into all this in 1998 and now look at me.

KR: The internet played a big part in it. First, from reading the Trek newsgroups, then in posting on them. It made me aware of the whole online community, the variations in fandom, and it put me in touch with a lot of people I wouldn't have otherwise known about.

KG: Am I wrong or do you mostly write DS9 slash; specifically and mainly Garak/Bashir?

KR: Except for one Babylon 5 crossover, and the use of the TNG sets and crew in a couple of stories, I've written exclusively DS9. Mostly slash, and, yes, mostly Garak/Bashir.

KG: What made the slash penny drop for you on those two? Was there one scene or was it cumulative?

KR: I caught the sexual overtones right away, in that first scene in _Past Prologue_. You just don't *see* things like that on Star Trek, not that overtly anyway. I liked that the show had the courage to show one man trying to pick up another.

But, to be honest, Garak himself didn't impress me that deeply at first. It was fun to watch him turn Bashir into a stammering, clueless idiot, but his original appearance was not appealing -- I *hate* that outfit he wears in this episode. Turquoise stripes and a rust-spotted vest? Yuck! I didn't get really attached to him until _The Wire_ -- and then I adored him madly.

KG: Yes, it's the genius in the man that he can consistently rise above consistently bad fashion. I hate that black brocade or whatever the hell it is number with the puffy sleeves. Puh-lese. But I digress; please continue.

KR: I liked seeing what the writers did with regards to G/B interaction whenever Garak appeared in the early seasons, but it was never that important to me. I would have said it was one of the reasons I enjoyed DS9, but it was pretty far down on my list, below the non-Federation points of view, Sisko's close relationship with his son, and that he continued to grieve for his wife instead of having a frivolous romance every other week, the female characters being the most action-oriented, the darker tone to the show, the moral ambiguities, Bajoran religion and politics. I didn't expect to see Bashir and Garak ever get together, but as long as lunches were shared, chocolates exchanged, and the occasional intense eye-contact made, I was happy with the way things were. It only became important to me when the writers began to back off on the G/B relationship in the 4th season. I had to resort to my own imagination to fill things in, and I started writing.

KG: Well, I guess we can thank the TPTB cowards for that, at least. I know you've written about Garak's torturer past in a few stories. Do you think, being with and being loved by Julian, that his personality has changed enough for him to be worthy of Julian? A Voyager writer who likes my work will not read my G/B because, for hir, there are no good Cardassians. I don't take it quite that far, but I mean, I guess I have this problem with the level of cruelty we are led to believe Garak engaged in, and now - presto chango - he's okay and we can like him, without seeing him have a vision of Elvis or some other utterly horrendous, but nicely redeeming, event. Or am I just an unforgiving asshole? How do you reconcile yourself to that? (Garak's evil past; not that I'm an asshole [we know that].)

KR: Oh, I wouldn't call you such a thing. I like you, even if you don't forgive Garak.

I don't think that Garak regrets much of his past. I see him as a very pragmatic person; he takes the most direct, practical solution to dealing with a problem, even if it's also cruel. He did what he had to do according to his own goals and agenda, and if there are things he's sorry for... well, they can't be revoked and it's even more impractical to fret about them after they've been done.

On the other hand, I can also see a more tender side to him that he's often at pains to conceal or suppress. He's always warning Julian about the dangers of sentiment. I think he's speaking from experience. He sees his own sentimental side as a weakness. Maybe he blames it for his downfall? If he were as cold-blooded as he should be, he might not have fallen into Tain's disfavor and been exiled.

I do believe that Garak has softened to some extent due to Bashir's influence.

Look at the interrogation scenes in _The Die Is Cast_: There's no reason for Garak to feel squeamish about torturing Odo. They aren't friends at this point, so he should be able to conduct the interrogation with cool, professional detachment -- or with the relish that Tain says he used to have. But he can't do it; it tears him up in a way it wouldn't have at the height of his career. Bashir's name never comes up during this sequence, but I believe that their friendship has brought about this change in him. What else could it be?

I used this as a key point in _The Bond Not Broken_. I think that that story also addresses some of my ideas on how Julian copes with Garak's past. He doesn't know everything that Garak's done, but he knows enough to realize that he doesn't want to know any more -- if he does, he might have to face some things about Garak that could force him to end the relationship. And, in spite of it all, he does see something worthwhile in Garak and is trying to bring it out. To bring about that redemption?

KG: I really enjoyed your Bashir/O'Brien, _A Poor Substitute_, very much and also, _Plural_ and its sequel, though the sex was very, ah, tastefully done (i.e., a little too subtle for a pervert like moi) and Miles guilt was agonizing, really. I hope someday you'll be inspired to write more of this pairing because you do such a smashing job with it. D'you think Miles will ever get over his married guy guilt and make it with Julian or will he just continue to slog along being a good schmuck... I mean, husband, yeah, being a good husband?

KR: I've pushed him into it once or twice, but it's not easy. I've said many times before: If he could easily cheat on his wife, then he just wouldn't be the Miles O'Brien I love.

That doesn't keep me from trying to find ways around his scruples, though.

One of the things I'm planing to do is revise the original, longer version of _A Poor Substitute_ and let them have an all-out love affair.

KG: EXCELLENT! I mean, oh good that they get to get it out of their systems. What made the slash penny drop for you for this pairing?

KR: I had my first inkling of the possibilities with _Explorers_. You know which scene: where we find out just how drunk Miles has to get to tell Julian -- almost! -- that he loves him.

Although, in retrospect, _Rivals_ is the one that starts things off. In addition to being the beginning of Miles's use of racquetball as a substitute for sex, which carries on though the 3rd season, it's the steamiest O'Brien/Bashir episode: Julian in his little silver outfit, Miles all overheated and huffy and looking like he *really* wants to swat Julian with that racket. I'm not usually into spanking scenarios, but this is why Miles is always threatening to give Julian a good paddling in my O'B/B -- When I watch that episode, I keep thinking that I'd pay good money to see him do it!

KG: How long have you been reading FanFic?

KR: Since 1994-95, shortly after I got online.

KG: How long have you been reading Slash?

KR: I found my first slash story in 1995, but didn't start to read it regularly until about a year later.

KG: Could you list as many as you can remember of the stories you read prior to writing your first story?

KR: I read a _lot_ of stories. In those early days, I read just about anything -- gen, then slash, even het erotica, and in all the Trek series. I remember some weekend mornings in the spring/summer of 1996, when I would be online for hours, just going through the ASC archive one story at a time, stopping if I ran into one I didn't like and going on to the next, saving the ones I really liked. The DS9 stories, especially the G/B stories when I found them, were my favorites. I started to focus on those.

Some of the earliest stories I remember reading:

The Q/Picard story, _Q-Struck_.

Terrie Drummonds's _Hypothesis_. This is a great Sisko-gets-tortured story.

Emma Woodhouse's Paris/Kim stories.

A collection of fairytales (Cinderella, Rapunzel, Sleeping Beauty), recast with Trek characters. But you never knew who exactly the story was about until the final paragraph.

The first G/B story I read was _Random Acts_ by Gamma Gal. I also remember Karen Colohan's _Let's Get Away from it All_, Sophie Masse's _Dementia_, _Wavering Alliances_, and others of hers. Brenda Antrim's _Changes_, which is not quite slash, but its h/c scene comes close.

KG: How much and how long were you reading slash before the 'hey-man-I-wanna-do-this!' light went on?

KR: From when I started to read slash regularly, only a few months. I began to get my own ideas for stories, and the slash community, the G/B community, was something I felt I wanted to be a part of. I also wanted to get to know some of the writers I liked the most -- Terrie Drummonds, Arcady -- but didn't want to just be a fan writing feedback. I wanted to meet them as a fellow writer, on that level.

KG: I can understand that. What was your earliest story?

KR: This is actually a trick question. _The Claiming_ was the first one I typed out and thought was good enough to post on ASC in early 1997, but the original version of _A Poor Substitute_ and _Remembrance_ are older -- in front of the written draft of _The Claiming_ in the notebook. I wrote them both in the fall of 1996, but wasn't happy with them.

In the original, full-length version of _A Poor Substitute,_ O'Brien and Bashir have an affair, but Miles ends up going back to Keiko when she returns from Bajor, and Garak is there to pick up the pieces for Julian. That doesn't sound too bad in summary, but none of the characters came off very well: Julian's too wussy and passive, Garak's too nice and patient as he waits on the sidelines, and Miles is a selfish jerk. I still think I can do something with the story idea, which is why I want to give it another try.

_Remembrance_ is an amnesia story, which is kind of corny. I only typed it up and submitted it to a zine about a year and a half ago. I haven't heard back from them yet and don't know when it'll be published.

KG: You said something above about a "written draft". You draft in long hand? I'm impressed. Is the process different in long hand? Do you still draft in long hand?

KR: I used to write my stories in notebooks. It's a holdover from my high-school days, when I would write in class or at lunch. Several of my early G/B stories are in the same notebook -- those three, _Green Silk_, the opening scenes for what later turned out to be _Covert Agenda_, plus some other scenes or story fragments that didn't pan out.

I don't write stories in long hand anymore. The last one I did write out was _The Prophets' Abandoned_, and that was because I was traveling around England at the time; it's in the back of my travel journal. These days, when I write my story ideas, they're in what I call "scribbled notes" -- written in my own version of shorthand to be typed up and pieced together. Then I print them out and make revisions for the final draft of the story.

KG: You have written some absolutely wonderful stories. I know I've enjoyed most of them, especially the slash, and admire the delicacy and elegance of your writing very much. What story or stories are you most proud of and why?

KR: _Plural_ and _Especially the Lies_. They're both fairly complex stories, and I'm pleased that they turned out the way I wanted. And _Covert Agenda,_ since I managed to put together a decent spy story.

KG: And stayed right in character and canon. Brava. What story or stories are you most sentimental about and why?

KR: _An Emotional State_. My first sex scene.

KG: Was it? That's a very hot scene in a soft focus sort of way.

KR: Thank you. It's the scene that started me on writing what I think of "sensually suggestive" sex rather than physically explicit. Soft focus, as you say.

KG: Is Bashir your favorite character in slash to write about? Read about?

KR: Yes, and yes.

KG: Why is that? I mean he's cute as a bug's ear or whatever that weird expression is, but you might have more profound reasons.

KR: It's his innocence. By that, I mean that he strikes me as someone who just does not perceive the existence of evil. Deviousness does not occur to him -- that's why tricky people like Garak can mislead him so easily even when he tries to be on his guard. He's not a natural liar: One of my all-time favorite Bashir lines is in _Progress_, when Sisko subtly suggests that he make up a medical excuse to keep Kira out of trouble; his ingenuous response is, "But, sir, that's not true."

Obviously, I'm talking about the pre-genetic-enhancement Bashir. The early Julian -- that's the boy I fell in love with, and the one I enjoy using most when writing. It's so much fun to have him be seduced!

I think that his naïvete, as much as it annoys or amuses the older, more experienced people around him, is also what makes him appealing to them. Everyone else has survived some kind of gut-ripping trauma, and he hasn't been touched yet.

It's interesting to me to contrast Julian's naive qualities with those of other DS9 characters. Especially Garak. Not that I'm calling Garak the evil that Julian fails to recognize. (Garak, evil? No! Can't be. He's so charming and cool and has such snappy fashion sense!) But, whatever Garak is, he's far from innocent. He's seen a lot, probably done things Bashir couldn't even imagine. Where Julian doesn't see the pitfalls, Garak looks at everything with a jaded, cynical eye; in spite of his being an accomplished liar, he doesn't flinch from looking at a harsh reality. It's a contrast I'm still fascinated by, even after all these years.

The ironic thing is that, of the two of them, I think Garak is one who cares more deeply. He needs Julian more than Julian needs him.

KG: And that's what I found so upsetting in one of your stories where Julian dumps him. Of course they get together again, the course of true love, etc, but I was completely outraged until they did.

KR (interjecting helpfully): That's _An Emotional State_.

KG: Yes! I was in a very emotional state! Do you think that your interest in G/B will continue or is the grass starting to look greener somewhere else? And if so, where?

KR: I intend to continue for awhile, until I get tired of it or run out of ideas. I haven't reached that point yet.

KG: Ah! Good news for moi! I recently read your story on the Doctor Fuhq Fest, _A Small Corner of Happiness_, and really really dug it. It's the first Sisko/Bashir slash I've ever read or even heard of, although I'm sure it's out there... somewhere. I'm all jealous; I could never write either of those guys that well. It was extremely well done, as usual, and, I might be wrong, sexier and more graphic than usual. Was this an isolated incident or the beginning of a new era in the Ramage oeuvre?

KR: Sexier? That's a subjective term (but nice to hear). Graphic? I think that has to do with the lubricant. Since I'm from the Cardassians-secrete-their-own school of thought, the subject doesn't usually come up in my G/B sex scenes. Describing its application, however, seems to make things a bit more explicit.

Is it the start of a trend? I don't know.

KG: Yeah, lube and stretching; I was way impressed. What inspired this story? Sisko and Bashir are very sexy guys, but I'd never have made the creative leap and put them in bed together. You're much hipper than I am, really.

KR: Six months ago, it wouldn't have occurred to me either! I used to say that _Past Tense_ was the closest I ever got to having slashy thoughts about Sisko and Bashir, so it was the perfect point at which to start. I love their interaction in these episodes: Benjamin is so protective -- he brings Julian breakfast, which is just so sweet! -- and Julian expresses doe-eyed concern that Ben might wind up being killed in Gabriel Bell's place. But except for a few remarks from Dick Miller, the older guard, about their "matching jammies" and "intimate conversation," no one in San Francisco makes what seems to me to be the natural assumption about their relationship.

KG: It shouldn't, but the level of TPTB's gutlessness never ceases to amaze me. Sorry, just had to interject or explode. Please continue.

KR: Oh, I agree. It's particularly frustrating since they did start off with some really bold and interesting ideas in the beginning of DS9, only to drop or retract them later on. The Garak/Bashir relationship is a perfect example.

So, anyway, Sisko/Bashir... After I wrote the not-slashy _In Time's China Shop_ last fall, I had feedback from several people who wanted to see more of their life in the 21st-century. I started thinking about that -- what living in the shelter was like, how Julian reacted to the roaches, what their apartment looked like. How they tried to make a home for themselves while they waited to be rescued. When DFF came up and I had to think of them as being sexually involved, I could just see Julian asking Ben, out of the blue, "So, are we going to bed together?" and took it from there.

It turns out that Benjamin Sisko is even harder to push into sex than Miles O'Brien, but once I gave him a good shove to get him past thinking of Julian as a sort of son (and got me past thinking of them in primarily a parent-child relationship), it worked out better than I expected.

I've been thinking about doing a sequel, about what happens after they return to their own time and realize that they don't want to stop seeing each other.

KG: That would be EXCELLENT. I think I've read all your slash, and I was wondering... are you ever going to let Julian top?

KR: Darn. I was hoping no one would notice.

Um, probably not. I've thought about it from time to time, and it's never worked for me. It's hard enough for me to believe him as the dominant party in his on-screen romances with women, never mind with the men I have him involved with.

KG: Oh, I understand, I never let Chekov top either. Okay, once, but it was not a big deal. Excuse me while I swerve onto another topic. Do you have any thoughts on the future of Slash on the Web?

KR: I hope it'll go on the way it has. It's been incredible the last few years. I've had a wonderful time with it, both as a reader and writer, but there's always the danger of it all being shut down. I was at a slash writers convention last weekend, and they were talking about this. When slash was an underground commodity, the producers of the TV shows could overlook it. The internet has made all types of fanfic more accessible, more visible, and eventually someone might end up cracking down on the copyright issue.

KG: And that would be a very sad day for all of us. I think you've written for zines. How is that experience different from your experience on the web?

KR: Zines have a certain prestige attached to them, since there's some editorial control over what is and isn't accepted. A good zine has a nice, polished, professional feel.

On the other hand, what I like about posting stories online is the immediate response. When you submit a story to a zine, it can be a year or two before it's published, and you rarely get more than a couple of comments. When you post a story to a newsgroup or e-zine, you get feedback within a day. Instant gratification...it's very nice.

KG: Do you work with a beta reader?

KR: Yes, when I can get one.

KG: If so, who do work with and what is the process for you two?

KR: Right now, no one regular. I've had 4 or 5 different people beta my stories in the past year; when I have something ready, I'll advertise to see if anyone has the time and is interested in the job. So, of course, I'll get different kinds of comments from various betas -- proofreading, story problems, whatever. With that, it's usually good to have more than one person look at a story, so I get opinions from several perspectives.

KG: Who was your first beta and how did you and he/she get together?

KR: It was Terrie Drummonds. We became friends over mutual feedback, and I asked her to look at the stories I was working on at that time -- _For You_ and _An Emotional State_. As I mentioned previously, _An Emotional State_ was the first story I wrote with an explicit sex scene; Terrie was working on her first sex scene too, in _Converse Symmetry,_ and we helped each other with advice on what worked and what didn't. And Terrie beta-ed several of my stories after that.

I know that many of my early stories wouldn't have been as good without her input. I miss her a lot.

KG: Do you beta?

KR: Yes, occasionally.

KG: Do you enjoy it?

KR: Usually.

KG: What's the process when you beta? Such as, do you read for continuity first, then grammar, then typos, etc. Or is it an all in one process?

KR: I used to teach English, so I do get out the red pen for grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I look for typos. If some continuity or character problem strikes me while I'm reading, I'll make note of it.

It's too tempting to want to rewrite someone else's story, so instead of telling the writer what to do to fix a problem, I try to phrase things as suggestions, give multiple options as to what might make something in the story work better. You can advise, but I firmly believe that the decisions have to stay with the author if it's to be *her* story.

KG: What is the motivation to write slash? One can't sell it; one can't even eat it.

KR: It's a great creative outlet. All those funny ideas you get when two guys make meaningful eye contact... here's the chance to put them down in writing and share them with other people. And it's also an opportunity to put things _right_ when you feel the show's writers have got it all wrong. Or to fill in the gaps, adding the scenes we didn't get to see but you think we should have.

KG: You're very cool. Would you like to put your website address and/or recommended URLs here?

KR: Thanks! My nieces think I'm cool too, but they're not going to see anything I've written until they're *much* older.

Grown-ups, however, can find my stories at http://www.strangefits.com/kit/

This is the website that Heather made for me and I think it's lovely. Thank you, Heather!

There's also Cardassia Sutra for all your G/B needs - http://www.cardassia-sutra.com

The Trekslash archive - http://archives.slashcity.com/~trekslash/

It's a good, searchable database and Bonnie lets you add and categorize your stories yourself.

For those interested in O'Brien/Bashir stories, there's Blue Champagne's site at http://members.aa.net/~bluecham/

KG: Thanks. What advice do you have for new slash writers?

KR: Listen to the voices -- try to hear your characters saying what you've written. I've rewritten sentences over and over until they sounded right. And try to find a *key* to understanding the characters and write about them with that always in mind.

KG: Oh, and one last question: who's bigger? Garak or Bashir?

KR: Garak.

KG: Thank you.

KR: You're welcome. It's been fun having the chance to talk about some of this.

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