In an era when stadium tours, corporate sponsorships, and lavish stage sets are the norm for most major rock acts, the Indigo Girls are something of an anomaly. Despite a 16-year career that's included six grammy nominations, multi-platinum albums ales, and near-universal critical acclaim, the duo remains known foremost for their intense fan following and a fierce allegiance to various social and political causes. Having looged nearly 1500 shows since their performing career began in the early 80s (perhaps their 1995 live album 1200 Curfews should be renamed each year), the Indigo Girls' musical journey has been characterized by a work ethic and a sense of mission that's increasingly rare among their peers.
Although Amy Ray and Emily Saliers met in elementary school, they didn't start playing music together until they became teenagers. Even at that young age, their differences--both musically and temperamentally--were readily evident. The daughter of an Atlanta radiologist and a homemaker, Ray was the more extroverted of the two--not surprisingly, she gravitated toward post-punk bands like the Replacements. Saliers, on the other hand, was quiet and studious (her parents were professors), and her tastes ran accordingly toward singer-songwriters such as Joni Mitchell.
When the two joined forces with their acoustic guitars, they quickly discovered that their differences in personality and musical preferences coalesced into something musically magical.
Although Amy and Emily performed at high school events and PTA meetings, it wasn't until college that their musical career began to take shape. Using the moniker Saliers and Ray, the two found time between their studies at Emory University to perform regularly at nearby coffeehouses and small bars and had begun to attract a small legion of fans by graduation. Changing their name to the Indigo Girls, the duo became associated with several local clubs and eventually focused their attention on Atlanta's Little Five Points Pub, where the pair quickly attracted a loyal following as the night club's unofficial house band.
In 1985, the Indigo Girls began releasing a small but steady stream of material on their own label, Indigo Records. First came a single ("Crazy Game"), followed by a six song EP (Indigo Girls), and finally a full-length album entitled Strange Fire. By this time, Ray and Saliers counted among their fans such musical luminaries as REM's Michael Stipe and highly regarded Athens producer John Keane (who oversaw the recording of their debut album). Strange Fire sold approximately 5000 copies--a substantial figure by do-it-yourself standards--and in the wake of the release the Indigo Girls toured additional cities and garnered college radio play throughout the southeast.
In the midst of this burgeoning attention, major label executives soon came calling, and the duo signed to Epic Records in 1988. The Indigo Girls first album for the label--entitled simply Indigo Girls--peaked at #22 on the Billboard charts, with the Saliers-penned single "Closer to Fine" reaching #52. Recognizing their potential as major new artists, Epic arranged for the pair to serve as a supporting act for both REM and Neil Young. Capping a spectacular year, the Grammy committee nominated the Indigo Girls for the category Best New Artist, and a grammy was awarded them for Best Contemporary Folk Recording.
In the years since this auspicious beginning, the Indigo Girls have released six full-length albums, and each has displayed steady musical growth within the framework of firmly rooted folk-pop traditions. Equally as impressive, the two have managed to align their music with a political and social agenda that seeks to protect the environment, remedy social inustice, and promote tolerance.
Earlier this year, Ray and Saliers were embroiled in a controversy in which administrators at three high schools prevented them from performing as part of a series of free shows for students. Citing the duo's sexual orientation and a so-called "objectionable" lyric in one song, the powers-that-be forced the pair to utilize alternative venues in two of the three cities. Ray however, managed to display her usual optimism by finding something hopeful in what could be viewed as a comtemptible situation: "The kids made it positive. There have been boycotts and walkouts, and some of them were suspended for longer than they were originally told they would be. The ACLU in South Carolina is stepping in and defending some of the children. They became serious activists about it."
As Ray and Saliers prepared for a stint on this summer's Lilith Fair tour (last year they were cited by Lilith founder Sarah McLachlan as prime contributors to the project's success), both took time to talk with Performing Songwriter about their history, activism, and their songwriting.
PS: You and Emily began playing music together in high school. Looking back to those days, did you approach the guitar differently from one another even then?
AR: Yes, that's always been true, and it's really probably more a result of my weaknesses than anything else. Emily's musical abilities far surpassed mine then--and still do--in technical virtuosity and in regard to being a natural guitar player. My approach to the guitar was very utilitarian. I was like, "I want to play this song, so I'm gonna learn these chords and strum". I didn't practice that much, and I really felt (the guitar) was more an extension fo my body in a rhythmic sort of way rather than in a lead way.
And it was the same way with my approach to songs. At first, I had a hard time learning how to sing harmony, so I sang counter-melodies. I was much more gruff than Emily about everything, so even then we were definitely polarized. I think a lot of our style comes from playing up our strengths and our weaknesses, or rather from turning our weaknesses into strengths.
But I would also say that back in high school our musical tastes were slightly more similar than they are now. We loved to do cover songs by people like Elton John and Neil Young, although we tried to find the most obscure songs rather than cover the big hits.
PS: Who else did you listen to while you wre growing up?
AR: Mostly I listened to albums my sister had: The Jefferson Airplane and Strawberry Alarm Clock...a lot of sixties and early seventies psychedelic music. I also liked Neil Young, James Taylor, and Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young. But then at a certain point I heard Patti Smith, the Replacements, Lloyd Cole and The Commotions, Aztec Camera, The Clash, and the Sex Pistols. When I heard those types of bands, everything turned inside out for me in a way that was really good. Ot was a feeling of, "Oh, this is what I've been waiting for". The post-punk bands really liverated me in a sense. Whenever I go back to things I listened to before then, I just can't even relate to it. There are a few exceptions, like James Taylor and Neil Young, who I can still relate to as a writer. But as Emily and I started doing more original music, that's when the differences in our influences started to become more obvious.
PS: Is it true that early on you and Emily focused on performing at alternative-rock clubs rather than in coffeehouses and folk clubs?
AR: Yes, because we were loud even back then. We were kind of raucous, and we liked to jam and turn our guitars up. Back then the tradition in folk was that your voice was always louder than your guitar, but we liked the idea of mixing the guitar up as loud as the voice. There were a lot of things about us that didn't fit in with coffeehouses very well.
So we wanted to play the rock clubs or places that were once punk clubs which had become alternative clubs. Also the college students were there, and our friends hung out there, and that's where the bands we liked tended to play. I would call up these places and tell them we would play a couple of shows for free if they would just give us a chance. They'd say things like, "Well I don't know about acoustic stuff," but usually they would give in and let us try. And it almost always worked out.
PS: The two of you signed with Epic in 1988. That must have been an exciting time, but you've also said that you became a bit depressed afterwards.
AR: Yes. It was a situation where we had this thing going--managing ourselves, booking ourselves, that kind of stuff--and, when we let go of all that, we were excited at first because we had been working so hard. We were tired and thought, "Oh good, someone's going to share the load". But then we took a step back and thought, "Oh shit, did we just give up something we shouldn't have--the control, our independence, our autonomy?" But the reality is that Epic has been very supportice of us all along, in both our political agenda and our creative freedom. It's been an asset to have them, and it's really freed us up to do other things with our time. It's kind of a give-and-take thing.
PS: Since you had a strong core following as indie artists, was there any concern that your fans might feel resentful, that they might feel like they were losing their "pocket" band?
AR: Our fans aren't like that, and they weren't like that at the time. I think that's because we were very obvious about not changing. We stayed in Atlanta, we toured in a van for the first year, and we played and recorded songs they were familiar with. And we didn't change our sound drastically. I think our audience, in general, has been very supportive of what we do, and we're lucky for that.
PS: Almost every Indigo Girls albums has featured lots of stellar guests. Many of these musicians aren't known for sharing their services very often. What's your secret for persuading them to contribute?
AR: We just ask. (laughs) I think it's because we love playing music. And whenever we ask someone to play with us, it's because we want them to do their thing and not because we want to dictate what they're going to do. I think people appreciate that, but I also think people just like to play. Whenever we know people in a town we're playing, we always ask them to join us onstage. It's a tradition with us, and I think people enjoy that, because it's not something that happens a lot anymore.
And when we ask people to play on our records, I think that in the spirit of that, they agree. Most of these people have a certain approach to music--a certain open-mindedness--that makes it seem not far-fetched for them to sit in with people. Steve Earle is a good example of that, of someone who loves music and loves participating and engaging with people.
PS: Your experience with the Lilith Fair tour was also an example of that. Sarah McLachlan recently said something to the effect that the participants were tentative with each other until you and Emily came on board, and that you got everyone to let their guard down. That must have been gratifying.
AR: It was. It's gratifying for Sarah to recognize us in general. When you're on a tour like that, in some ways you just feel at some point people are going to get bored with themselves and will evolve and start playing with each other. (laughs) Just naturally, I mean, whether we're there to instigate it or not. But in another way, that is what we do. We're instigators. We'll go into a festival environment and try to get people to play together, because that's what we feel should be happening. That rubs some people the wrong way, but most people like it. We're not trying to be pushy about it. We're just saying, "Look, you guys. There's a wealth of talent here. Let's share and play together."
I also think in some ways we're irreverent about that sort of thing. We're not afraid to make mistakes onstage, and we're not worried that our set is going to be messed up or something. We're not precious, and I think that sense of looseness is what brought people out of their shells. With a tour like Lilith, it's hard because it's so big. When you look at the number of people there and consider what it could do for your career--if you look at just that--you might tend to get nervous and not be willing to take risks. But for us, it's not worth playing if you're not going to take risks.
[Insert: Amy's required listening.
PS: A writers, you and Emily have an unusal working relationship in that you odn't collaborate. Do each of you always finish a particular song before showing it to the other?
AR: Pretty much. Every now and then one of us will ask for help with a line. Emily might say something like, "I have this extra section, and I don't know whether to make it a bridge, or an introduction, or an ending," and I'll gibe an opinion. But that's pretty rare. We usually finish our songs independently, although we sometimes hear each other working on stuff, maybe in soundcheck or in the dressing room or something. So we might give each other advice if asked, but it's pretty much a lone process for each of us.
PS: Have either of you ever contemplated doing a solo album?
AR: I think we both think about doing solo projects, not as a major release or anything, but maybe just for fun. We both jam with other people, and we have fun sitting in with other musicians. Neither of us has a sense of being threatened by what the other one does, we do have a kind of freedom to come and go. I think that's because our musical relationship is so intact and because we both feel that the sum of that relationship is better than the parts.
PS: Let's talk about some of the causes you and Emily have championed. You must get approached by organizations all the time. How do you go about determining which ones to support?
AR: We work with a lot of activists, and it has mostly to do with disenfranchised commumnities or issues that have come about because of the basic corporate structure of the United States. The fact that multi-national corporations are in charge of things at this point is pretty scary. They have more money than the government. These issues have to do with everything from pro-choice advocacy to gun control to environmental issues. It's those issues Noam Chomsky talks about: how manifest destiny created all this disenfranchisement.
We're all fighting the same enemy. The global economy is killing us (with) NAFTA, GATT, and so on. So a lot of things we do stem from an attitude of trying to spread out and help communities. And one of the most important things is we don't go in someone's movement and tell them how to run things. We try to support what they're already doing. That's the nature of grassroots activism: to support and give voice to people who are trying to change things in their own communities.
Our involvement in Native American activism is a good example. We have a campaign called Honor the Earth in which we fund indigenous environmental groups. Native Americans within their own communities make all the decisions about how the funding is used. We don't have anything to do with these decisions, we just give them the money. And that's kind of the model for how we do other things. We tend to work with small groups in which we can see the direct results of what they're doing, and with groups which don't have a lot of administrative or bureaucratic costs.
PS: Has your involvement in these issues tended to make you more optimistic or more pessimistic?
AR: I feel optimistic. I feel inspired by certain groups we work with. We funded a group that's part of the Zapatistas--in Chiapas, Mexico--and just seeing their discipline, and how they've become politicized within their own communities, and how they've done things for themselves is extremely inspiring. They're so big-hearted and so hopeful. And they have so much grace, which is really hard to find. Seeing that in someone else can teach you a lot, and then you can come back to your own struggle and bring what you've learned to the gay community or to environmental issues.
PS: Are there instances in which you and Emily disagree about social issues or about what direction you activism should take?
AR: We don't disagree about activism too much any more. I used to be a lot more outspoken than she was, and now we're about the same in that regard. And we don't disagree about our approach to politics. But sometimes we do disagree about business matters. I tend to be more radical than Emily about those types of things, but at the same time, I'm principled to a fault, and her viewpoint is often much more valid. And sometimes we have disagreements about music, about who we're going to hire or who's in the band. We're so different from each other, you can pretty much count on us taking opposite views on lots of things other than general values.
PS: In what ways has your association with various types of cultures had an impact on your music?
AR: It's certainly put us in touch with different types of music. But also, in a way that's obvious to me but probably subtle to some people, it's given us a sense of freedom. We've seen a lot of people who would risk their lives for what they're fighting for and who have so much less than us. And that triumph of the spirit makes you look at your own music kind of differently. You start taking more risks, and you get a sort of feeling of, "What have I got to lose in view of the larger scope of the world?" You stop being so precious.
PS: The music industry has gone through lots of changes since you and Emily started out. Do you think things are better for women in the industry today as compared to a decade ago?
AR: That's a hard question to answer. It appears there are more opportunities, because women are getting more airplay. There's Lilith Fair, and lots of women are really popular. But there's still something that gets to me, something that I can't quite put my finger on. It's a sort of a ghettoization that goes on. It's as if women are always looked upon as a surprising trend. It's never just accepted for what it is.
And also, I really believe the terms that success is based upon are still male terms. And I don't think that's the fault of women. I don't think all these women are selling out. Women should have the freedom to do whatever they want--to dress how they want and to sing about whatever they want to sing about. (But) the parameters of success are still dictated by a male sensibility and by what a male wants to see in a female. I don't think that's changed, although I do think women have more opportunities now. Things are evolving.
PS: Amy has said her style of songwriting grew partly out of listening to post-punk bands when she was very young. What types of music did you listen to when you were growing up?
ES: My parents had albums by people like the Kingston Trio and Peter, Paul, and Mary, so I was particularly drawn to that. And they were also really into jazz and classical music, which I listened to as well. But then when I started buying my own records, the first album I bought was by the Jackson Five. I've always liked soul music and rhythm & blues. And then, as I became a more serious songwriter--when I was eighteen or nineteen years old--I discovered Joni Mitchell, and I've listened to her since then. I've always been into Bob Dylan as well. At various times in my life I've also listened to Heart, the Roches, Jane Siberry, those types of folks.
PS: You and Amy began playing together at a very young age. At what point did you realize there was an unusal chemistry between you?
ES: That was a gradual thing. There was never a moment when we said, "Gee, we should try to make a living doing this because we have something really special." It was more a situation where we were in the same high school, and we were good friends, and we had this thing in common. Of course there's an endless fascination that exists when you're playing music together. There's always another song to learn or to arrange. And we started preparing repertoires for things such as playing in our English class, or PTA shows, and eventually open mic nights. And we just took it from there.
PS: How would you characterize that chemistry, or how is it related to the differences and similarities between you and Amy?
ES: Musically we are very different. Our influences are different. As you say, Amy has more of a post-punk influence and her music tends to be rawer and more edgy. And she has a deeper, more rock'n'roll type of voice. On the other hand, my music tends to be more in the singer-songwriter vein. Joni Mitchell would be a bigger influence on me, and I also have a higher voice.
And these things are a bit indicative of our personality traits as well. Amy is probably more driven and motivated and passionate and fiery. We have different personalities, and we like to do different things with our time. Fortunately, these differences have complemented each other and have worked to our advantage. It's kind of like having two musical lives.
[Insert: Emily's Required Listening
PS: When did you come up with the name "Indigo Girls"?
ES: That was around 1984. Before then, we had just been going by Saliers and Ray, but we wanted to come up with something that sounded like a band name. Amy just flipped through the dictionary, looking for ideas, and she landed on that word. We talked about it, and we decided to add the word "girls" for alliterative purposes. There's no deep meaning behind it. It just sounded good to us.
PS: Were you as overtly political in thsoe early days as you are now, or was that something that developed with time?
ES: We've always been involved in social issues and politics, even going back to when we were very young. We did benefits at that time for groups like Greenpeace and to support local shelters. I suppose Epic had no way of knowing we would turn out to be as political as we are or that we would marry our music with our politics to the extent we have. But we've always had that direction in our lives and it's only natural to join it to our music since that's what we spend most of our time doing.
PS: When you signed to Epic, were there any specific demands or assurances you required, in regard to the label allowing you to be as outspoken as you wished?
ES: From the very beginning we made it clear to the company that, in our case, what you see is what you get. It was understood that we weren't into "image", and we weren't going to be told what songs to record. We were going to do our own songs, and they would be produced the we wanted them produced. Amy and I were able to say these things because we had nothing to lose and because we weren't hell-bent on getting a major label deal. We approached everything with a kind of relaxed attitude, and we had no real expectations about what might happen or how many records we would sell. Basically, the most important thing to us was to protect the integrity we brought to what we were doing musically, and that's exactly what we did.
PS: Over the years you and Amy have been involved with a number of social causes and activist policies. Lately, however, your primary focus has been related to Native American issues. Can you talk a bit about that?
ES: Yes. For the sake of being as effective as possible, given the amount of time we have, we've sort of honed our interests in on indigenous people's issues. They're the true environmentalists, it really runs through their blood. They don't think of themselves as environmentalists, it's just that their way of living takes into account future generations and protection of our resources. For traditional people, it's like breathing. Amy and I feel we can learn a lot from that way of thinking. We live in a society that's so driven by money and consumerism and multi-national corporations there's little respect for any sense of balance. That's why we've become so heavily involved with indigenous people's issues and rights and land protection issues.
PS: The Indigo Girls' sound has tended to become more expansive with each album. How much of that has to do with your travels or with your association with various cultures?
ES: It all has to do with our travels. Our songs have lots of references to traveling and to places we've been and to things associated with being away from home. They have to do with all the people we've come across--Native American activists and others who've educated us. We met these people because we were on the road, and we write about things that make us impassioned, things we think about or experience.
It becomes a big soup pot of experience. Musically, you take a little from this area and a little bit from that. As far as our bigger sound, that's also happened because we've started playing different instruments in the past couple of years. We've played acoustic guitars for so long. I think we both wanted to grow and to not stagnate. So Amy learned some mandolin, and I've focused more on electric guitar and some banjo and piano stuff that gives our sound, collectively, a broader spectrum.
PS: How so you go about determining which musicians you want to bring in to play on a particular album?
ES: When we get ready to record, a lot of times we'll make a wish lis of people we want to play on the album. And sometimes people are recommended to us by producers or other musicians or through word of mouth. Bringing in Danny Thompson to play bass, for instance--he was someone Peter Collins suggested to us. Peter has introduced us to lots of musicians we've worked with along the way. It's really just a matter of asking people if they'll do it. And we've been fortunate in that most of the people we've asked have agreed.
PS: What sort of input do the musicians have on the way songs are arranged?
ES: Basically we like for people to come in and do their own thing. For instance, Lisa Germano came up with a really wacky mandolin part on "Least Complicated" which ended up being one of the main hooks in the song. Only she could've come up with that, at that moment, and that's the sort of thing we celebrate and encourage. We don't bring musicians in and try to get them to do somethng that we would do ourselves. We bring them in because we like what they do.
PS: Which Indigo Girls album was the most fun to make?
ES: They're all fun. They're also a lot of work. The last one was fun, but it was also difficult because it was fully our responsibility since we decided to produce it ourselves. But we had a good time experimenting. We sort of took a "kitchen sink" approach, running from instrument to instrument and doing some fnky weird things.
PS: Sarah McLachlan has said that you and Amy helped change the vibe during last year's Lilith Fair tour. What was that experience like for you?
ES: That was a really generous thing for Sarah to say. Amy and I are like a couple of kids in a candy store when we get around other musicians. Just to stand there and watch Emmylou Harris, Sheryl Crow, Jewel, and Sarah--all these great people singing their sets--it just seemed like a great opportunity for everyone to get together and jam. That's the school of thinking that Amy and I are from. When we were growing up in Atlanta, everybody jammed together and supported one another. There were very few problems with competition or with ego stuff. So that's the way Amy and I like to experience music. Whenever we're involved in a festival situation, we're gonna go knocking on doors saying, "Please come sing with us."
PS: Do you think things are any easier today for women in the music industry, as compared to how things were when you and Amy were first starting out?
ES: I do think it's easier, and I hope that it's not just a trend. The business has been male-dominated for a long time, just like most other facets of our society. And there's been prejudice in the sense that radio programmers wouldn't put a bunch of women artists together in their line-up, and promoters didn't want to feature shows with more than one woman act on the bill. There have been problems like that, and I think a festival like Lilith points up this type of ignorence that's existed. But things seem to be changing, and that's a really good thing.