Well,first things first. I wasn't led into the industrial genre! Primarily because I never particularly liked that kind of music. Sure.I liked Throbbing Gristle and one or two others but once it became a more cohesive genre ( ie. once we had the rock bands from the USA getting involved ) I was turned off. I was always more interested in the avant-garde in particular or what you might call experimental music. The fact that people who like industrial music listen to my music is co-incidental at best. I think it happens because they have an open mind. I first started to listen to music seriously when I was about 13 I guess.My Brother and I would buy records together. I started playing music at the same time. Drums actually. My first band was an avant-garde band called "Solaris," with two friends,Richard and Mark Sanderson. We had no equipment,used to make our own infact. Richards Dad had access to interesting and strange music. So from an early date we were able to listen to music from a wide variety of sources.I think that is an important fact. Then punk happened and i gradually became less interested in playing with kids who wanted to be heavy metal gods. Richard was a compulsive record buyer,so we got into bands such as This Heat, Throbbing Gristle etc etc when they released their very first recordings. Whilst continuing to enjoy Can,Kraftwerk,Faust etc. Looking back,it was a liberating experience. All of this happened within the confines of a small northern English town. We certainly wern't blessed with a "culture" so to speak,apart from John Peels Radio Show and the N.M.E. Exciting nevertheless. I can remember following the exploits of the Sex Pistols week by week. We also had a club in town that alot of great touring bands played in.I even saw Can in my home town,in 1976. Kraftwerk too,in 74 or 75.

At what time did you join zoviet france (they were already formed when you joined, were they not?)and for how long did you stay, what albums where you playing on?

I joined Zoviet France in 1987 and left in 89. Around the Shouting At The ground,Look Into Me phase. I met Ben through the Hunt Saboteurs.At that point in time i was active in the Animal Rights Movement. I've never claimed to be anything other than a bit part player in their career. I was,however,actively involved at the time. You have to remember that bands such as ZF,because of the fact that they are improvisors first and foremost,record vast ammounts of unreleased material.It's a wholly different situation to the "rock" school of music.They ( and I ) avoid studios. So one does not set out to record an album..material is accumulated...stockpiled. I was very familiar with the ZF way of working because,well,I'd made music in that vein for years..off and on.

You started dvoa in 92 when you had left britain and zf, why did you move?

Well,I left ZF in 1989. My move to Canada had nothing to do with that. Between 1989 and 92 we were living in a beautiful cottage in the countryside. Idyllic in many respects but we were becoming increasingly angry and frustrated at Britain..about how it was being pillaged by the Conservative Government. Our work was frustrating because of the impact their policies had on it. Both my wife and i worked in hospitals. One day I said to her," would you like to live in Canada or the USA ?" and she said...." yes". I was able to apply for emigration because of my job. Six months later we landed in Vancouver. We had this notion about travelling and starting again...A desire to leave England too.

What were your intentions when starting dvoa?

A few months before we left for Canada,I had managed to purchase a four track machine.I also started to record with Richard Sanderson again in London,under the name Propeller.Once in Canada,I just started to record music for myself.I had virtually no equipment.I grouped with some acquaintances and we started to record together.We used borrowed gear. Anything that came to hand. Kitchen utensils. Literally anything. I was also interested in radio sounds. Randomised sound,fused together. We played live,it seemed to work. I sent some tapes out and received some release offers. It was all quite accidental. Just a way of expressing some ideas. Quite why I choose music to do that currently is beyond me. I remain contentedly ambivalent about the music world in general. I'd always concentrated more on my painting before. It would seem however, that I do have *something* to say or i obviously wouldn't bother. I enjoy the communal side of my work. Engaging in debate with others. Sharing ideas.

The first work of dvoa was realeased on tape by the g.r.o.s.s label what were your reasons for signing on to chicago based invisible? Are your cooperation working allright?

It was ironic that the GROSS tape was my first release because it was actually recorded after both Hafted Maul and New Words Machine. Zev Asher said that I should send a tape to his friend Akifumi,from AUBE,who runs GROSS.So I deliberately set out to record something abrasive. Akifumi liked it and because it was a comparitively small project, released it quickly. I then licensed something ( New Words Machine ) to Cleopatra and signed to Invisible soon after. Invisible just happened to release the cd Hafted Maul sooner. Invisible excited me because of it's distribution and because it had a commitment to interesting music. At that time they had just signed the Swans. It's also a family and as such is pretty much unconditionally supportive. I'm involved with several labels now. All of these arrangements are working fine.

How have your approach to music changed from the old zf the the recent material? What affect has the time in zf had on your work.

Well I'm deeply grateful to ZF. They continue to be a fine band. At that point in my life i also discovered the work and ideas of Joseph Beuys,so many *events* happened simultaneously. Ultimately I became more aware of improvisation. Of it's power and focus. I began to freeform write and paint. I was less interested in conceptual pieces of art. More interested in randomness. I viewed my work as less of an exercise in compositionality. I became convinced that this ability had less to do with *artistic skill* and more to do with innate creative potential. That,in Beuys' words," everyone is an artist." In my case it made sense. I was from a working class family. Really had no privileges in life. I'm not a musician. I really don't care if people scoff at that fact. Ultimately, I have the right to make music. My lack of *specialness* is nothing to be embarassed about. I feel a little like Pinters decription of his work...." the weasel in the cocktail cabinet." I walk into music ( equipment ) stores ( rarely ) and i feel as if I am in a foreign country. The assistants certainly don't speak my language !

How do you work when creating music?

I start with the bare canvas. I have my equipment set up constantly for

recording. One legacy of Download, is that I now have a nice little box which has all my effects etc wired together. Our apartment has my *toys* all over it. In boxes,hung on walls and in my dogs basket. So I decide on a starting point.it could be a rhythm,a vocal idea etc and I work with that sound until I find something i like. I lay down a track onto the tape machine.Overdub. Overdub etc. I prefer to work alone, at my own pace. If I need to I will go into a studio. Especially since meeting Darryl Neudorf from the Miller Block in Vancouver, who is absolutely the best engineer I know. My goal is to avoid feeling restricted. I strive for the first take because with me, it's inevitably the best result. I'm becoming more attuned to the process of mixing,I'm actually beginning to enjoy it. Ive learned a great deal from the people I've worked with. I have to feel like doing music. It happens remarkably easy though,all told.

How have your work as a therapist affected your creations?

Very much actually.I've been inspired by the people i work with. By peoples innate access to their creativity. By peoples ability to overcome illness and deprivation. I've learned much about myself in the process. I continue to do so. It's about tapping potential. I've worked on many collaborative projects with my clients ( all non-musical ) and very much view them as artistic equals. It's a shame that society in general continues to scorn the work of non-artists because in actuality,from my experience, non-artists make astonishing art. I understand why that happens though. Artists seek exclusivity. They know that they have their market cornered and don't want to share it with others. It's a bourgeoise phenomena. Lets face it,if I'm accurate in my observations, then those people have much to lose. Our loss is that we have to endure ongoing bad-art. The fact that the world of art is ruled by artists and those with money is bad news....Canada is a perfect example,with it's funding system for the arts. A small minority of *professional* artists seem to have little trouble in obtaining money. The majority of people don't get a look in. The result...bad art. As someone more learned than I said," most art is ignored by most people because most art ignores most people..."

From where do you get your inspiration, music litterature film?, you ofen mention the works of Joseph Beuys

From a wide variety of sources. I'm quite voracious in my appetite for art. Periodically I consume vast ammounts of art galleries,books etc. The internet is a blessed friend. Poetry is something i return to continually. I have a short attention span however and find myself surfing in a vast sea of information. I suspect I take in a great deal of what i hear,see and experience and that it comes out in my work in a variety of ways. I'm not sure how. As indicated earlier, Beuys is someone who cotinually influences me. As do left wing politics. Movements or counter movements such as dadism,situationism etc. I continue to be interested in certain peoples work...Jarman,Lynch,Greenaway from the world of film..Tapies,Kiefer,Klee,Klein...from visual art,writers such as Beckett etc. Add my interest in most forms of non-commercial music and one has a heady cocktail.

What is it you try to express with your music, how would you define it?

I hope that I'm tapping into ones ability to articulate clearly,through the use of media designed to stimulate thought. Pauline Oliveros refers to this process as " deep listening." Listening is a complex,multi-dimensional process. There is nothing remotely mystical about my music. I don't see any music in those terms. I think concretely,in shades of perception. That music has reason to be. My reality,based on factual information about the way we think,states that we underestand stimulus at a number of levels. Cognitively we appreciate sound..we link the sound of a vacuum cleaner with a vacuum cleaner for example..Emotionally however we FILTER sound. Our mind links sounds to our own and therefore highly subjective experiences,thoughts and feelings. In that way, sound generates personal analysis. Hence the reason why people describe this kind of music as visual. People tell me that my music stimulates intense dreams. To do so one has to ENGAGE with the music and most music actively is not designed for that purpose. Beats destroy that kind of experience because they are immediately sensed,felt. ie. we have a physical reaction to the music and our body is an important receptor of such stimuli. Hence the reason why I use beat music to make me feel active physically. I suspect that drone-orientated music has been used for generations by people who wish to invoke ENGAGEMENT. Involvement in the process whether it be for spiritual purposes eg. meditation or for inducing trance like states. States of analysis.I'm interested in music that induces deep concentration. Thorough attentiveness. If people arn't interested in that, I suspect they will get very little from my sounds. I just happen to believe that music is far from being the emotional-opiate that many seem to use it for. I don't want people to be removed from reality,far from it. I want people to confront their reality. I think this is why most people seem to regard my music as being scary. Not because I'm engaging them in some hippyeseque chill-out but because they are able to confront some of their own personal demons. It's confrontational music and that set's it aside from most forms of ambient music. Thats probably why many of the industrial fans seem to get it,because they seem willing to explore aggression,anger,hatred,anxiety and fear. All of these are qualities that I admire in music. I don't particularly enjoy music that is relaxing or comfortable.I like passionate music,whether it be Penderecki's " Threnody for the Victims of Hirsoshima," or a well sung aria from Puccini's La Boheme. I'm not saying that I am sucessful in achieving these goals. I do try however.

You have not only made music but visual art, what are you doing now, and in the future?

I think the web site www.dvoa.com is a good example of how we can meld ideas.Whether they be visual,conceptual,musical or text based. The form does not matter actually. Creating is what counts and I have an insatiable desire to do this. I'm becoming more and more interested in dadaistic thinking. I see that as being the most primal form of communication available to me. Less and less interested in tolerating rationalistic thinking. I think my sense of humour comes out in my work too. Humourless work is boring work. I don't take myself seriously at all actually. Despite my wordy protestations to the contrary. There is a great deal of humour in my work. If I was to take your question literally, I would say that I am not at all bothered by the fact that i will probably get bored by making music sooner or later and go back to writing or painting. I'm not a career musician. I simply enjoy being creative. I certainly don't need the publics eye to stimulate me although I really enjoy communicating with other like minded people.

Dvoa recently turned in to a two man project from earlier only being yourself, who is the new member, why the change and how will it affect dvoa?

Kris Harris is the new member.We engaged through work that Kris did on my web site. I don't know how things will change,that's the fun part. I am not that easy to work with though,as Kris know's....! I tend to be a bit of a hermit. I work full time and thats a very socially demanding job. DVOA has an extended family and I'm only partially interested in claiming ownership. I think there is room within it for people of different persuasions. Visual artists,thinkers and film-makers...writers and poets. This isn't a rock band. The only thing I'm truly committed to is eroding stereotypes. Breaking down traditions barriers.

You have a number of sideprojects, are there any which is of more importance to you?

I'm very attached to Propeller. I think that Rame is my favourite album , although I would have to say that the only music of mine that I listen to is the stuff I'm working on,at this point in time. The reason I do so many side projects is because i love working with other people. I enjoy the potential created by collaborations.

You have quit your collaboration with download, why?

It seemed logical. Although we have a core interest in the same kinds of music,I didn't really feel that motivated to doing another album...at that point in time. It was a natural split. I know the other guys felt the same as I,so it was mutual. Having said that,I like what I've heard of the new cd and being part of that project was wonderful. I found it difficult to be in a band and Download needs a full time commitment. Some partnerships run their natural course and thats how it felt for cEvin and I although we've both said that we would record together again. There is no animosity at all.

Where you playing on the charlies family soundtrack, and on the coming "III" album ?

I'm on a couple of tracks on Charlies Family.It was actually recorded before I became involved though,when the boys were still in Malibu I think. 1995. I did some overdubs. No,I'm not on III.

What is team dvoa?

A group of people who got together via the website. It functions as a way of spreading the work-load. It's proved to be very effective.

Future plans? A new tour?

Well,I'm recording alot right now,with David Wright from Not Breathing,Khan,Jarboe,a band called Antiform,with Dustin Donaldson's new project I Spoonbender ( I met Dustin when he was a member of Pansy Division ),Jim Plotkin,Dropstar,Frans de Waard of Beequeen and Capotte Muziek and probably several other people who I have miserably forgot...sorry! I hope to have a new DVOA cd out in January of '98 ( a new one has been released this week with Not Breathing,called " a fire in the bronx zoo" ) aswell as some collaborative vinyl only releases. I have a new Propeller cd out in the fall called," oro." I'm doing an ongoing series of collaborative cd's for ichor records,the first of which :spybey:theriault: was released earlier this summer. Let's see,I'm doing a track for a Neu tribute cd. Working with Ryan Moore and Darryl Neudorf.Also, I hope to get cracking on the Mick Harris collaboration soon. My touring plans were scrapped this year but maybe next. I won't go out if it feels wrong. I got to play in New York this summer at the Brooklynn Anchorage and that was great. I'm also intending to go back to the Lab in Chicago in December for another web-show. Hopefully with Eric Pounder,David Marine and David Wright. We're also working on a web page within a web page,for dataism...which is a treat that several members of team dvoa including Mark Nugent ( who supplied visuals for the Download tour of 1996 ),Dimitri della Faille and Aaron