Welcome to Rock Line. Rock Line welcomes in Chicago: Joe Elliott

JOE: Good Evening, I'm fine. A little jet-lagged, but I'm ok.

BOB: Where did you fly in from?

JOE: I flew in from Ireland yesterday. It's like 5 am or something my time.

BOB: That's a good flight. That'll screw you up pretty good right there. It's nice to have you with us this evening and joining us in our Hollywood Rock Line studios is Mr. Phil Collen. How are you?

PHIL: A bit jet lagged.

BOB: A bit jet lagged as well?

PHIL: Haven't been on a plane for about a year, but I feel jet lagged. I feel for Joe. (laughing)

BOB: You're always jet lagged though aren't you?

PHIL: Exactly.

BOB: Nothing ever changes you know. I should mention that if you log onto the web at Rocklineradio.com, you can see me and Phil and the Rock Line crew, but we don't have a webcam in Chicago where Joe is located.

JOE: Well that's a shame. I'm completely naked. (Laughing)

PHIL: So are we - we'll see you in a minute. (laughing) Oh - Bob's got his skates on and that's it.

BOB: That's it. And what an ugly sight it is. Seems like you guys have been on the road forever. Is this the everywhere twice tour Phil?

PHIL: I think so. We usually do that, in fact, the Hysteria tour was everywhere three times because we kept trying to break the record and finally we did. It's kinda why we're doing this. We feel that this record should be multi-platinum and it's not. It just went gold and which is great. Thank you everyone. But it should be up to triple platinum we figure.

Bob: You're not stopping until it is by golly.

PHIL: Absolutely.

BOB: Joe, what's the hardest song off of Euphoria for you to do live?

JOE: Um (blows a raspberry) Tough question. Probably the instrumental.

BOB: Might have something to do with it. See for me, the reason I ask that, for me it would be 21st Century Sha la la la - I mean I can't even say the title much less sing the darn thing.

PHIL: But we were rehearsing that and we didn't know - we were actually watching one of our friends singing the words from the side of the stage to figure out what order it goes because it's a bit of a mouthful.

BOB: But you pull it off with no problem, Joe.

JOE: Yeah, we've actually not played that song very often live. We did it at obviously, we were, um, when we did the Chicago show on New Year's Eve to ring in the millennium. We figured it would be a good idea to do 21st Century Sha La La La Girl, you know. So, I think we've only played it half a dozen times you know.

PHIL: yeah if that.

JOE: We keep bringing new songs in and out off the new album. I think we've done maybe six or seven off so far of the eleven on the album. Or is it thirteen on the album? I can't even remember how many there are any more.

PHIL: Thirteen on the record and I think just before we broke it in the air at the end of the winter tour, we were auditioning Day after Day. We was doing that a few times.

JOE: Yeah that's right and we did that a few times 'cause it got on radio. So I think we're any, you know, we normally do like four or five off the new album and it's from a pool of about say about 7 or so that we've tested so far.

BOB: Now, from Def Leppard, we have as I mentioned a moment ago, Phil Collen and Joe Elliott. But there have been some recent births involving the band. I know that Rick Savage and his lady just had a baby and Vivian Campbell

JOE: It's a little baby boy, 7 lbs. and 7 ounces one hundred percent fit and healthy. I was there with him until 6:30 in the morning in the hospital.

BOB: What a good friend you are. There you go. And a

JOE: That was novel.

BOB: His lady is ok? She's healthy? Everything's fine?

JOE: Yeah, everything is fine. It was a very, it was like a five minute labor. She was very lucky in that respect. And everything was fine.

BOB: You know, Joe, only a guy would say it was a five-minute labor. (Everyone laughs.) Believe me.

PHIL: He'll be hearing that later.

BOB: What about (laughter interrupts)From the coffee machine.

JOE: I wasn't there for the two days previous of course.

BOB: And how long since Vivian and his wife had a child?

PHIL: That's actually getting on there now, about nine months.

BOB: About nine months? That's still relatively new. They're getting into the walking stage now for them.

JOE: Actually, Phil, I think that it's closer to a year.

PHIL: Is it really?

JOE: Uh huh.

PHIL: Wow. That went quick.

JOE: I think that Lily may have had her first birthday already.

PHIL: Well, there you go.

JOE: Time goes too quick now a days.

BOB: Well, then we better start with an older song - which we will from Hysteria. Pour Some Sugar on Me. Def Leppard - on Rock Line.

BOB: PSSOM - Def Leppard from Hysteria on Rock Line. Joe and Phil from the band joining us tonight and if you would like to speak with either of them, just call the toll free rock line at 800-344-7625.

BOB: And welcome back to Rock Line. I'm Bob Coburn (sp?). Phil Collen from Def Leppard, joining me in the Rock Line studio. You can see us on the web at Rocklineradio.com. Joe Elliott in Chicago this evening. We have Ryan on the line and he is listening on the internet. Hi Ryan.

RYAN: Hey guys. I saw you last summer in Minnedosa and Duluth and both times were awesome.

PHIL: Hi Ryan - I can't hear you.

BOB: You can't hear the caller?

PHIL: No.

BOB: He saw you in Duluth and you were awesome both times. Our engineers are working on that right now. Ryan go ahead.

RYAN: Ok. I have two quick questions. My first one is do you guys choose the opening band?

PHIL: Um - we get a list of bands who are available at the time that we are going on tour and we kinda yeah. If we like one of them bands, like Queensryche and Tesla, when we toured with them - um - we chose them and the same with Joan Jett, who was just out with us for the winter. She was great last summer with us and we wanted her to come out with us again. So yeah.

BOB: So who do you have opening up this next leg of the tour with you?

PHIL: I don't know (laughing). I haven't seen the list.

BOB: Joe, do you know who it is?

JOE: It's what's known as, oh ah I don't want to be cruel, its a local talent so far. We um, tried to get a couple of bands who had already confirmed to on other tours so at the moment we are still working on it.

BOB: I ran across something on the internet that saying that the Unband. So that's maybe the generic name for "we don't know who it's going to be."

PHIL: I heard someone say that today.

BOB: Ryan, what's your other question?

RYAN: Do you guys ever plan to play Desert Song live? Because it's always been one of my favorite DL songs.

JOE: Us too.

PHIL: We love it.

JOE: Yeah, we love it and we have gone through this a million times. It's very difficult to play songs that are immense favorites to possibly, if there is 10,000 people in the crowd, 5 people and alienating 9,995 other spectators who are going why are they doing this instead of a hit or something. There's a certain, I think when you are in a band, there is a certain amount of artistic kind of, I don't know what you want to call it, inside of yourself that makes you want to do all of the songs you don't normally play. Then there's the sensible side of you that says that you have to, to a point, that you have to give the people what they want. Um, and try to please yourself and the crowd. It's like going to see the Stones, you have to hear Jumping Jack Flash and Sympathy for the Devil and you kinda humor them with three or four songs off the new album

PHIL: For Keith

JOE: Yeah (laughter all around)

BOB: Oh, Phil

PHIL: No, I love Keith. I have been at the shows and laugh and I adore it.

JOE: They use those sections of the set to sell t-shirts.

BOB: When it comes to singing, he's a great guitar player.

JOE: We would love to be doing things like Desert Song and Fractured Love and Coming under fire and stuff like that. But you know you can only play for two hours and we've got a wealth of material and what, I think, live environment, I think familiarity is an essential part of the ingredient.

PHIL: We have fallen on our face before. We have done this. In Minneapolis, we played, we done three nights there in 88 or something and we thought we'd throw in, we do a stand in. Funny enough, it was a Stone's song, we put in Brown Sugar and thought they're going to love it. There was like 20,000 people there. You could've heard a pin drop. We going, this is great, come on, this is a Stones song, this is cool, come on.

JOE: If you remember back to 92, we did Washington DC on the night that Clinton got

PHIL: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

JOE: So we decided to do "Elected" by Alice Cooper and that went down like a lead balloon.

PHIL: It suffered a terrible fate. And we went Oh guess we better go then.

BOB: Could've chosen a Led Zeppelin song then. There you go. Ryan thanks. Let's move on to Matthias in Carbondale.

Matthias: Uh yeah, hi. This is a question for Joe and I'm in Greenfield. I was wondering, what was the first group you was in and where did you guys first play at?

JOE: The first group I was in? The first serious group I was in was DL. I did once moonlight with a band called Jump on drums when I was about 15 or 16.

PHIL: It was called Jump was it? (laughing) JOE: Laughing. And um, the drummer had gone to France grape picking and he came back three days before the gig and I got kinda umphed off but out of sympathy, they let me play for like three or four songs.

BOB: Sympathy, huh?

JOE: This is it really, I have kinda been in this band for like more than half my life now and uh, long may it continue.

BOB: Remarkable. And he of course was listening to our Carbondale affiliate regardless of where he may be located geographically. Where was the first Leppard gig? Do you guys remember that?

Joe: Yeah

Phil: All the time.

JOE: Phil was prancing around London in another band at the time but um, the first Leppard gig was at a school called Westfield, just on the outskirts of Sheffield and it was in June of 1978 and it was literally hastily it was hastily put together by an associate of ours because Steve Clark threatened to leave the band if we didn't stop rehearsing and that's a fact. So we did and one of the teachers that was like, kinda overseeing the whole thing gave us five pounds out of his pocket. Which was kinda cool, I thought because we actually got paid. We were so nervous, that we brought the bass drum in and then we brought the bass drum case in separately, unbeknownst to him, full of beer. And we all got ripped and went on stage and we actually went down quite well, we got an encore. So we went out and did Thin Lizzy's Jailbreak for an encore. Everybody got up and started dancing and that was it really and we'll have some of that.

BOB: Thank God you didn't do Brown Sugar.

JOE: This is true.

BOB: Let's head to Omaha and talk to Andy. Andy hi, how are you?

ANDY (female): Hi Joe, Hi Phil.

PHIL: Hi love.

JOE: Hi there.

Andy: I wanted to tell you guys that I saw you last year and I have listened to you for fifteen years and you have been my favorite band, you always will be.

JOE AND PHIL: Thank you.

ANDY: I just wanted to know how long this tour is going to last and do you ever intend to put out a boxed set? We really want one.

PHIL: We got a bunch of live stuff, actually we have been recording live stuff every tour we've done. We have about 50 live albums ready, but no plan on releasing it yet. This tour is gonna last, this is kinda like the last leg, it's three months planned unless something spectacular happens or you know, we get a call from some other part of the world or some other part of America and someone says ok we've got to add another bit on. So, we are always prepared for that so that hopefully that will happen.

BOB: Andy, thanks for being on. We are going to play a song from Euphoria. The latest CD, 21st Century Sha La La La Girl. Here you go, Def Leppard on Rock Line.

BOB: 21st Century, Def Leppard on Rock Line. Phil and Joe joining us tonight. We have John who we are going to bring into the mix now in the New York City area.

John: Hi Joe, Hi Phil.

PHIL: Hi.

JOE: Hi, John.

JOHN: My question for you is - Do you feel that Def Leppard is the last British Hard Rock Heavy Metal Band to achieve international success and do you foresee sometime in the future a new generation of new British Hard Rock Heavy Metal Bands following in your footsteps and past bands like Queen and Led Zeppelin?

JOE: Good question. Um, there hasn't really been a band, I think Bush would the closest thing to a British band that have actually sold in the millions in recent years that I can think of, can't think of anybody other than Bush. But in fairness, they only really kinda did it in the States, they didn't really sell that well in Britain, nor did they break Europe or the Far East

SORRY I LOST THE REST OF HIS ANSWER BECAUSE I HAD TO FLIP THE TAPE!!! I will pick up with the rest of his answer.

JOE: there's only Iron Maiden that ever actually sold any records anyway. And as for, Phil can vouch because he was in GIRL at the time, bands like Girl and DL; we tried our utmost to actually break away from this supposed new wave of British Heavy Metal. We didn't want to be part of a movement and I know that Girl didn't either.

PHIL: Absolutely. That's why I wore nail varnish. Was trying to get away from it.

JOE: The denim and leather thing and I believe that there was the MURSEE sound (I have no clue what that is or if I spelled correctly) and then there's the Beatles and they have nothing to do with each other, other than geographically. And it's the same thing with the NWOBHM; it was a convenient thing for journalists to lump bands into. We tried our hardest to get away from it. So, one day a fantastic band will come out of Britain, but it does seem to have dried up since the days when you had the Kinks, the Stones, The Who, and Zeppelin and Queen later on. We still are the biggest selling British band in the US twenty years later.

PHIL: It's really not part of the British culture either, it's very much an American thing. I think that the divide is growing between what is happening in the UK and Britain and that and what is happening in the US. It's kinda getting further and further away so that they have got their own thing over there and it's completely different (BOB steps all over the end of Phil's response and I couldn't tell you what he said).

BOB: Yeah that seems to be the case. That would be my take.

JOE: It's all boy bands in Britain now. If you are talking Top 40, you can't get away from boy bands.

PHIL: Well they've got them here but it's just a rock thing, I mean the whole rock thing in England is indie based like, you know, Oasis was the big rock thing and its so different to what we would call standard rock, you know like Zeppelin, Queen, us, the Who, the Stones even. You know, there's not a lot of that.

JOE: It's gone away and if they do exist, nobody knows about it. It's so underground at the moment, it's impossible to find information out about it, even on the web, you can't find a decent, you know Travis would be the big band and they are a guitar based band but it's not rock as we know it Jim. (Should be John)

PHIL: Pat Travers right? (Laughing)

BOB: No, no Travis, Travis, not Travers.

JOE: Stereophonics are huge, none of these bands are crossing over to the States. None of them are coming over here. I mean even Oasis never really broke the States in the way that we did or the other British Bands like the Stones, the Kinks or the Who or whoever.

BOB: That's right. Iron Maiden was mentioned and I didn't remember who it was, but someone fell off the stage last night and hit headfirst and was taken to the hospital. So we wish the band well. They had to cancel three or four gigs or postpone them and uh

PHIL: Oh wow.

JOE: You're kidding.

BOB: Yeah, I think it was Yannick Gers.

JOE: Wish him well whoever it is. Notoriously, it probably have been Bruce. He would be the one leaping about most.

BOB: No, it was Yannick I believe.

JOE: Oh really? You see that's it. Three guitarists, they're tripping up over each others leads.

BOB: That's what it was

JOE: Poor guy.

BOB: Oh yeah, I can do that better - get outta my way.

JOE: Maybe he's wearing your skates Bob, and he just couldn't keep his balance.

BOB: Yeah, that's it. That must be it. Let me show my skates to the people watching on the web tonight. Good lookin' skates aren't they? Thanks John for being on. We are going to talk to Donna. She's listening to our St. Louis affiliate. Welcome to Rock Line Donna.

DONNA: Hi. Hi guys.

JOE AND PHIL: Hi Donna.

DONNA: I am looking forward to seeing you guys next month, it will be the third time seeing the Euphoria tour. My question for you is - I saw you last year at the Montgomery county fair and I held up a personalized license plate that said Too Late for Love. I wanted to know what you guys do with the memorabilia that the fans give to you?

PHIL: Depends on what it is.

JOE: Exactly.

PHIL: Right now, I guess all the stuffies and that would go to Sav cause he's the new dad. So, we kinda channel

JOE: teddy bears

PHIL: that way. Which kinda happens anyway. I think even if they are not meant for him, they kinda up that way when anyone has had a kid that's kinda what happens to stuff. I had some stuff stolen on this tour actually. My bag went, my computer went, I got some of it back. People kept giving me clothes, they kept throwing stuff on stage, and I remember saying, Why did that guy throw that shirt at me? This kept happening a lot. This guy threw a jacket at me and I think you said Joe - It's cause you got your stuff stolen. I think that's what it was.

BOB: They were giving you the shirt off their backs.

PHIL: Absolutely.

BOB: What fans could you ask for that are better than that?

PHIL: So, yeah, we wear 'em.

BOB: Donna thanks for being on.

JOE: I always end up with the numberplates.

BOB: Do you?

JOE: I always keep the numberplates. I keep them stuck up above the bar in Michigan. They, I got numberplates going back to 83. I've got loads of numberplates, so I possibly have your numberplate.

PHIL: I probably have your shirt.

BOB: Well at least tell Donna where the bar is in Michigan so that she can go and see her plate.

JOE and PHIL: Laughing

BOB: You don't want to do that ok. All right

JOE and PHIL: still laughing.

BOB: Ok we'll take a time out. Hello Joe.

JOE: It's a private bar. It's in the basement of a house.

BOB: Oh, ok, well that would explain why you didn't answer the question.

JOE: It's not actually a bar - it's a bar to be. There's actually just a hole where the bar is going to go. Until I am finished with it.

BOB: More information than I needed really.

PHIL: It will be finished on the next album.

BOB: We'll take a time out and return with Def Leppard in just a moment. Your number is toll free 1-800-344-7625 (ROCK). It must be Rock Line.

BOB: And welcome back to Rock Line and Bob Coburn with Joe Elliott located in Chicago and Phil Collen with me in the Hollywood Rock Line Studios. Next week, an exclusive issue of Rock Line with the first US interview in some 22 years, Cat Stevens, is going to be on Rock Line.

JOE: Really?

BOB: Live from London. So he's going to do the 5:30 in the morning routine and talk to his fans here in the States and Canada.

PLAYS PHOTOGRAPH.

BOB: Gives concert dates. And it's Todd. Welcome to Rock Line, Todd.

TODD: Hey Bob, how are you doing this evening?

BOB: We're doing great.

TODD: I want to just say real quickly that I have been a fan of this show for over 16 years and I really enjoy what you do.

BOB: Thanks Todd. Thanks for being there all that time.

TODD: A real quick question for DL. I found an album called 2 Arms to Arms and it has a song called Too Many Jitterbugs along with various DL songs from the first three albums. Can you tell me a little bit of information about Too Many Jitterbugs and where that came from?

PHIL: I think you could probably tell us.

JOE: You got a bootleg. And it doesn't have anything from the first three albums it has live from the Reading festival in 1980 plus some demos that somebody, some unscrupulous chap, put out. Too Many Jitterbugs is mis-titled and it's a song that we once did called Glad I'm Alive. It's one of the first songs we ever wrote about 1978 and it never made the first album because it wasn't deemed good enough.

BOB: Well spotted Joe.

JOE: Trainspotting Elliott.

BOB: So that's it Todd. You got a bootleg so the band didn't get anything off of that so don't let anyone borrow it all right? Don't pass it on there. David from Raleigh, North Carolina, you're on with Joe and Phil from DL.

DAVID: Hi.

JOE AND PHIL: Hello.

DAVID: Whose idea was it to do the three concerts on three continents in three day promotional tour and would you do another one like it in the future?

PHIL: Yeah, we probably would. (Stutters and finally says) We got into the challenge. At the time we was going Oh god. Looking back on it, it was kinda cool and someone from the record company suggested it cause it was the release of our greatest hit album and it was like, hey - we've got a great idea - why don't we play three continents in 1 day? And then it was well all right then. So it was one of them things. It was great actually.

JOE: We didn't remember much. Well, I specifically didn't remember much about the London show because we'd been up for about 24 hours by the time we did it.

PHIL: In Africa, Europe, and North America.

JOE: The Canadian show was fine because we'd had ten hours of sleep on the plane.

PHIL: We went to a party as well while we was waiting for the plane in Morocco, that was the first gig. You know, belly dancers, camels, and all that. It was surreal; the whole experience was surreal. But great.

BOB: I don't think anybody has done that since and I think that you were the first to do it. There's probably a good reason.

JOE: Yeah, we did make the Guinness Book of Records actually. I think that was the intention and we're still in it actually.

BOB: Now, not Phil Collen who is with us tonight, but Phil Collins played Live Aid in both cities.

PHIL: Yeah, right.

BOB: He played in London and Philadelphia. And I know that George Thoroughgood played 50 dates in 50 states and he agreed to do that, the only problem was that nobody told him that it would be in 50 days. So he had to do them all in a row.

JOE: Wasn't he in a yellow cab or something?

BOB: Yeah, something ridiculous like that. And it's a long drive from Juneau to Honolulu. I want to let you know that. That is a heck of a drive.

PHIL: Wow, yeah.

BOB: David thanks for being on. We're gonna play another song by DL now called Armageddon It.

BOB: Rock Line remembers. Can you remember what year these events occurred? The New York Disco Studio 54 opened its doors, Sid Vicious joined the Sex Pistols and this ELO classic, Telephone Line was released. 76, 77, or 78? We'll be right back with DL in a moment on Rock Line.

BOB: And welcome back to Rock Line, an evening with DL. I'm Bob Coburn. But first, Rock Line remembers. Can you remember what year those events occurred? Phil, you seem to have strong feelings on this.

PHIL: Well, I thought 77 but Joe always gets these, he's very good at these numbers so now I'm kinda hovering. I'd say 77.

JOE: It's funny you should say that cause as soon as I said 78, I started thinking, hang on, Sid Vicious, Pistols are 76 it wasn't two years so it might not be 78. But just for the hell of it I will stick with 78.

BOB: You'll stick with 77?

PHIL: Yeah.

BOB: Joe, I'm sorry but Mr. Collen is right in this one. It was 1977. So there you go.

PHIL: Any particular month?

BOB: No don't have the month down here, no we're not that fine here at Rock Line. We try not to make promises we can't keep. Plays Promises.

BOB: This is not a set up question at all. But what have you guys been doing the last four months?

PHIL: About three years ago now, is it three years ago?

JOE: Yeah, it was 1997, August 97.

BOB: Oh, just cut to the chase.

PHIL: OK. We done this Mick Ronson, who was the guitar player with David Bowie throughout all the pretty much really cool stuff during the early 70's, you know, Ziggy Stardust, Lead Inside (?) and all that. There was a tribute for him because he passed away with cancer a few years ago. And we actually reformed the Spiders From Mars band, I play guitar, Joe sung, and it was the original two members, Tro Baldwin, Woody Whopanthee (I have no clue how to spell their names) on bass and drums. And Dick Deeson. We actually went on a tour and a Mick Ronson memorial in Howell, which is where he's from. And, anyway, we recorded all this stuff and we just been mixing, well, Joe has. He's just been mixing it, this live show. It's all these great songs that we grew up on and it's a tribute to Mick. As Joe just sent me a CD of some of the mixes and it just sounds fantastic.

JOE: Yeah, it's all the stuff like Jean Jeanie, Daydreamer, Man who saw the world, Width of a circle, five years, life on Mars, Suffer Jet City. We're going to put it out on the web. It's the first, well, not the first, because Vivian's got Clock, which is his kinda side project. And this will be the first one that Phil and I have really been involved in and the name of the band is the Cybernaughts. The album, we think will be called, Boy could he play guitar. And it will be available hopefully towards the end of the year.

BOB: Great name for the album and boy could he play guitar. Moon-age Day-Dream, he just soared.

PHIL: Smokin.

JOE: Watch this space for details, you know, people want to check our web site and stuff like that. It can be, more information will be coming over the next few weeks. We literally only finished it last Thursday, so it's got a long way to go yet. But we got to sort out the commission and all that kind of stuff. Once that's done, it will be something that when we finish the tour and get working on our next album that will just take care of itself once it's out there.

BOB: There you go. I was at Mick Ronson's last public performance, which was the Freddie Mercury Aids Awareness Benefit at Wembley stadium.

PHIL: We were on stage as well. Me and Joe were doing backing vocals.

BOB: Yes, I recall you guys being on stage. Along with Liza Minnelli and Elton John. A whole group of people were there.

PHIL: But we actually went on with Mick. He was playing guitar, I think Bowie was playing saxophone and Ian Hunter was… (spoken over by Bob)

BOB: Wonderful show, great show.

JOE: Talking of Ian Hunter, he's got a new compilation out called Once Bitten Twice Shy. It's a double best of and I think it's out this month. And there is a track, a live version of All the Young Dudes, its Def Leppard with Ian Hunter from 1996, which is on his album. Which is very cool.

BOB: Can we fit in any more plugs in here? I don't think so. I think we have plugged ourselves out. Let's talk to Lindsey in Houston Texas. Hello Lindsey.

LINDSEY: Hi, how are you?

JOE: Hello.

LINDSEY: I have a question. How difficult has it been for you guys to sustain your music with all the changing trends, especially with the pop culture today?

PHIL: Same as it's always been really. I mean, you try and write great songs that cross over. That's always been our thing, we've never tried to be the genre of stuff that's heavy metal, so we are always trying to make it very accessible and just across the board. We always want a 4 year old or a 50 year old to like it. So that still stands and I do think that if you have great songs and great melodies, people are going to like it. So that's we try and do really.

BOB: And I think you do a good job of it.

PHIL: It's hard. It's very hard. But it always has been. A lot of the stuff we do, you know, you hear the Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, you hear the multi-track vocals and then it's like, that's what we do as well. It's kinda funny, it's just that we have guitars as well.

BOB: Def Leppard and Britney Spears in the same sentence, I just get, it just doesn't work.