Part Two

When last we heard, Wonderland was playing...

Nicky

Eric Stewart and Graham Gouldman here with me tonight, listening to some old stuff, and also to some new stuff. 10cc...meanwhile is the brand new album. Talking about that Strawberry Studio set-up. It came from the two of you. You were involved in this sort of assembly line song writing process. You first of all went to New York in the late sixties. Is it the Kasenatz Katz organisation?

Graham

Yeah, that was me, I'm afraid.

Nicky

It was you, was it?

Graham

Yes

Nicky

Was it literally sitting in a booth writing songs?

Graham

Well, it was something like that, and in retrospect, not maybe the best thing I ever did. However it was very good for Strawberry Studios, which Eric started off and then asked me to come in with him as I was working in New York for Kasenatz Katz and getting very fed up doing it.

Nicky

And getting a lot of money for doing it, no doubt?

Graham

Er no.

Nicky

Writing stuff for Ohio express and all those bubble gum...

Graham

No, no, but I didn't write any of the hits. I got fed up in New York and wanted to come back and record in the studio, in Strawberry Studios. It was the four of us actually doing stuff for the Kasenatz Katz label so it was business for the studio, so it worked out very well.

Nicky

Why did you get so fed up in New York? Was it, it wasn't just living in New York, was it actually just churning out crass material that was, er, intentionally crass material?

Graham

It wasn't, it was rather frustrating, it was one of those things you do in life that was a mistake, but it had good and positive effect in that it was work for the studio.

Nicky

It's when the song-writing art becomes, um, very sort of mundane when you have to do that.

Graham

You've got to try these things, you never know.

Nicky

Especially like jingle writing and things like that?

Graham

That I could never do personally, um, er, I don't know, it's just one of those things, I don't think that I could.

Nicky

It's like selling your soul, writing some of those songs.

Graham

I don't know. You're so confined in what you do. I think it would be too hard for me.

Nicky

And the Strawberry Studios set-up of course, the four of you got together and, er, legend has it, you recorded Neanderthal Man song. Hotlegs, Eric, the four of you with Lol and Kevin

Eric

No that was the three of us before Graham came back from New York

Graham

I was in New York

Nicky

Oh, you were in New York?

Graham

Yeah

Eric

The Hotlegs band. We'd just got a new Ampex 4 track recorder at the studio and we were experimenting with drum sounds, to see how many we could get on tape and at the same time, Dick Levy was in from Phillips with a Mary Hopkin album, and he says 'What the hell's that you keep playing there?' I said 'It's a drum experiment'. He said 'Well it sounds like a smash'.

Nicky

It was actually recorded as an experiment?

Eric

Yes a pure experiment. 'What's it called?' 'Well Lol's been chanting "I'm a Neanderthal Man" behind it, so let's call it that and literally that's what happened and he bought it, and the rest is history.

Nicky

That was a very, very important development in the history of 10cc then.

Eric

Yeah

Nicky

So you saw that you could do it yourselves, not just as side men but as front men.

Eric

Yeah, and we were backing tons of people such as Neil Sedaka and all sorts of other acts, but you're right, that was the first thing we'd got together and written as a group - written - there were only 4 words in it or something. Yeah, but it was a good experiment and we found we could do something quite interesting and get a hit with it.

Nicky

Well, here is that experiment, zat famous experiment...

Neanderthal Man

Nicky

You mentioned a few minutes ago, your work with Neil Sedaka, I mean, but you worked with some dodgy people as well, er, I mean, I'm sure you don't want to mention any names

Graham

Go on, mention them

Nicky

Well, I did read about, Neil Sedaka, he's brilliant, but I did read about this guy. He thought he was a reincarnation of an Egyptian god.

Graham

That's right, Ramases and Sel. We did an album called Space Hymns, which was actually a good album. It had some good songs on it. He was rather eccentric and I'm afraid, he's no longer with us. He was actually a central heating salesman from Sheffield. But by night, he became the reincarnation of Ramases the 3rd. he was very cosmic in his music but I think we enjoyed working with him. He was so out of it.

Nicky

He was so wacky, wasn't he.

Graham

We'd sort of sit around with acoustic guitars and be very cosmic, man. Chant.

Nicky

Was he out of it all the time, was he on wacky baccy?

Graham

I think he was, I don't know about that, but he was permanently strange.

Eric

It wasn't chemically induced, he was just off his head.

Nicky

You got a laugh out of it, anyway?

Graham

Yes and it was good for the studio as well. We did loads of things like... football records.

Nicky

Oh, Leeds United, didn't you?

Graham

We did one for Manchester City. Yes, but it was like the studio needed the business, so lets make a football record but let's make a really good one, that kind of thing, you know.

Nicky

Well, we won't hear Manchester City, but lets have a little bit of Ramases and we can try and just discover just where exactly this man was or where is head was. What was the album called?

Graham

Space Hymns, naturally, what else?

Nicky

Space Hymns - I bet you haven't heard this for a while

Life Child

Nicky

A little bit of Space Hymns there, and er, well, I'm sure you had a lot of fun recording it but Neil Sedaka, a different proposition altogether - a major artist, a great song writer. Both of you being song writers would appreciate his talent and he was a total professional. You did two albums with him, didn't you?

Eric

Yes we did. The Tra La Days Are Over and Solitaire. We had a fantastic time recording with him. He'd just sit at the piano and sing his harmony vocal at the same time as doing the piano, which is what he used to do in New York, it's incredible, and he'd be bang on first time, and we'd be making mistakes saying 'Can we go again?'. He'd say 'Got to do the whole thing again, guys? Jeeeesus!' 'Yes, we got to do it twice, Neil' It was great.

Nicky

It must have been good working with songs of that quality albeit somebody else's, I mean songs like Solitaire

Graham

It was a real pleasure, his parts were absolutely spot on all the time and they were very nice songs to play as well. They were nice to sort of play acoustic guitar or bass. There was just something warm about them

Nicky

Yeah, nice chords and nice changes

Graham

Yeah nice chords

Nicky

'Our last Song Together'

Graham

He's kind of a traditional song-writer, predictable in a very good, pleasing way

Nicky

Well, I mean, he's a man who's written songs like 'The Hungry Years', and 'Our Last Song Together' is one you played on

Graham

Yes, a great song

Nicky

I think it was the last song he actually wrote with Harry Greenfield

That's right, yes

Our Last Song Together

Nicky

'Our Last Song Together', by Neil Sedaka, 10cc backing him in the early days at Strawberry Studios in Stockport. 20 years on to the new album, 10cc...meanwhile. Eric Stewart and Graham Gouldman are with me. And you were mentioning Mr Porcaro, and is it Mr Pake, from Toto as well.

Eric

Paitch

Nicky

I always get that wrong, I always go for the wrong option on that one

Graham

They've got funny names, haven't they?

Nicky

They have, these Americans, haven't they?

Graham

Very strange

Nicky

Now, Stewart and Gouldman that's simple.

Graham

No, those are real names.

Nicky

But, er, you've got Dr. John on two of the tracks, indeed, a wonderful piano player. Great to be able to employ somebody with that idiosyncratic talent

Eric

Yeah, that's one of the wonderful things that happened with using Gary Katz as producer. He's got a tap on so many great musicians. When we sat down to play this song, sort of routine the thing, I was playing this piano bit and saying 'You know, I'd really wish I could play this bit just like Dr. John' and he said 'Well, why don't we get him in?'. I said 'You know him?'. He said 'Yeah, he lives round the corner', and he gets on the phone and says 'Hello, Mac, got some guys here over from England, they'd love to come and play on this track, come over and have a listen'. And he listened to the track and went 'Ehh, umm, err' and he went into the studio and after about 3 passes, he suddenly played what is on the record.

Nicky

A pass is being...

Graham

A take

Nicky

A muso's word for a take.

Eric

Yes, just listening...

Nicky

We haven't got subtitles on radio so we have to get these things clear.

Eric

And on the fourth take, he played what we have on the record there, and it's absolutely magic.

Nicky

So there's no question of sheet music or anything like that then?

Graham

No

Nicky

A little pun there, there's no question of that, it was just listening to it and doing it by ear.

Graham

Yes the feel

Eric

From the soul, and he sings on it too, later on in the record, beautiful, an octave below myself and Graham, this great growling voice.

Something Special