My fun with the SB-Live!

What was the problem?

I bought an SBLive! soundcard, and it wasn't an easy ride - that's what the problem was. My machine was forever freezing up, Windows Explorer babbed out with KERNEL32 problems, and DOS command windows (yes, somebody still uses them) got increasingly sluggish and then froze altogether. The three-finger salute of Ctrl-Alt-Delete often showed that MSGSRV32 was not repsonding. Having killed that task, the problem sometimes cleared for a short while. But shutting down resulted in a Blue Screen Of Death noting that an Exception Error occured in EMU10K1.VXD - this being the driver for the too-clever-by-half- sound chip.

It was Creative's fault then?

Ha ha. Re-naming the EMU10K1.VXD file (temporarily, to prove it) to something else, and then rebooting, made everything work a treat. Only... with no sound of course.

But surely they helped?

Somebody somewhere is having a larff.

An upgrade, perchance?

Yup! (see further down this page) My version of EMU10K1.VXD was 4.05.1033 when "right-click... properties" was performed.

How cheesed off was I?

Oh, very. Exceedingly ****ed off. It was over 6 months since I bought the parts for the PC, and I hadn't even got the darn thing working yet. Arghh!!!!

It actually managed to take it's own pic. Wow.

Random thoughts, off at a tangent

So anyway, what did we try?

Well... we tried all the usual IRQ stuff... various Control Panel / BIOS things... no joy. My workmate tried my SBUseless! in his machine, with his spiffing new Supermicro motherboard. It worked. So I bit the bullet and ordered one the same. It worked. I installed all the software I wanted. I copied a lot of data from the office LAN. Then we removed the network card to prepare for the happy occasion of actually taking my super-super marvelous PC home. And LO! There cometh the problem once more! Imagine my joy. Imagine how the window was opened and the PC was very nearly launched into space. Web searches turned up nothing useful. I was stuck. So I wrote an earlier version of this page (somewhat more scathing), hoping that some techno-angel would stumble accross it and help me out. Hehe. Fat chance.

We've had the machine stripped down to
just the bare essentials AND still the problem persists. It's not
exactly an unusual motherboard, being an Intel one. Windows 98 AND 95
suffer the same problem. We've even identified EMU10K1.VXD as the
make-or-break offending item - are you able to find a solution for
this? 
------------

Hi,
OK, the first problem you may or may not experience is that there were some
issues witht he latest rev of the Phoenix Bios  which would disconnect
modems attached to COM ports. I'm aware of no fix as yet from Phoenix but
by changing the BIOS rev to 3/11 resolved this problem. Try also diabling
the SB LIve DOS emulation inthe Device Manager and then make a backup copy
of the C:\PROGRA~1\CREATIVE\SBLIVE\DOSDRV" folder and then delete.  Restart
and see does the problem resurface is this works then check with the
motherboard manufacturer and ask them does their motherboard fully support
NMI (Non Maskable Interrupts) and if it does how to enable them. Some
manufacturers of motherboards state that they do support NMI but when
tested and used (like with the SB128/Live) they don't work. Until the
motherboard fully supports NMI then the software emulation simply cannot
operate. Check with the respective motherboard supplier for NMI
compatibility. 

If you are not using the card for DOS and the above solution works then
there is no functionality lost.
Best regards,
john.



 At 17:07 05/02/99 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi,
>We tried to changing hardware settings,  swapping IRQ's and DMA's around
>etc... no success yet.
>
>On some shutdowns we get:
>Exception error 0E has occured 0028:C14DF808  ...  EMU10K1.VXD(01) +
>00016C28 0028:C14D2970 ... EMU10K1.VXD(01) + 00009D90
>
>It's this EMU10K1.VXD driver that seems to be the problem - when re-named
>(and thus not loaded) the whole problem disappears... only NO SOUND!
>(obviously)
>
>I enclose an MS-Info data file from the machine in question, for your
>information:
>
>
> [MSINFO32.nfo] 
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: *snip*
>Sent: 28 January 1999 16:16
>To: 'Creative Tech Support'
>Subject: RE: Support Request Form
>
>
>I've tried all the below (before hand), 
>The PC has been a virgin on each install of 95 and 98
>as it has had the HDD reforamted in between.
>THus another Sound card is not the problem. I cannot disable the Com & LPT
>ports
>as these are required. Com1 will be connected to a scanner, com2 is a modem,
>LPT1 is a 
>printer. 
>The Vga Res has been working on the standard VGA 640x480 16 colours drivers,
>as the problem arrises
>before I had installed the Drivers for the g/card. (it happens afterwards as
>well)
>I have also tried using the latest drivers. (i downloaded them a week ago. I
>note they have
>not changed since) but to no avail
>Power management has been disabled also. In the bios and in device manager.
>I have tried a multitude of configurations with no success.
>There are no conflicts or unknown devices in device manager.
>I had also tried the below procedure deleting the files in sysbackup and
>then reinstalling (after reading a document relating to the SB16)
>this had no effect. 
>
>the problem is highlighted by running the following batch file in a Dos
>Window (window, not full screen)
>
>:test
>dir c:\windows
>goto test
>
>The window will slow down and eventually freeze. upon which, a CTRL + ALT +
>DEL reports MSGSRV32 is not responding
>once MSGSRV32 is end tasked, the system responds normally. 
>
>if emu10k1.vxd is renamed there is no problem in that the systems responds
>normally (just no sound).
>
>The machine also responds normally with a full compliment of drivers for all
>the hardware, as long as the SBLIVE is not installed. As soon as i install
>the SBlive, this problem occurs, no matter at what point i install it. B4
>graphics drivers, after graphic drivers, b4 mother board updates, after
>m/board updates... I have tried most configurations.
>
>Hope this further info helps.


-----Original Message-----
From: Creative Tech Support
Sent: 28 January 1999 18:11
To: *snip*
Subject: Re: Support Request Form


Hi,

I would suggest that you turn off anything running in the background such
as Virus Checkers, Screen Savers, Power Managment and TSR's.  Lower the VGA
card's resolution, colour depth ad hardware acceleration.  If you had a
previous soundcard, then I would suggest that you remove the old drivers
and software.  In the PC's bios I would suggest that you disable the Com
Ports and the LPT Ports if they are not being used.  

Go into Device Manager and click on Sound, Video and Game Controllers.
Delete the soundcard entries that are listed there.  Check under Other
Devices or Unknown Devices for any Soundcard entry (these entries may not
be listed) and remove it.  Go to Add/Remove Programs and uninstall the
Soundcards software.  Then go in to Windows Explorer and click on View and
chose Options.  Select Show All Files and Apply then OK.  Go into your
Windows Directory and there should be a Folder called Sysbckup.  Remove all
the drivers from this directory.  Then empty the Recycle Bin and reboot the
PC.
NOTE - LZEXPAND.DLL & VER.DLL WILL NOT DELETE!

Reinstall the SBLive! using the drivers on the CD.  There are updated
drivers for the SBLive! available for downloading from:
	http://www.cle.creaf.com/techknow/tech/ftp/ftp-sbpci.html 

Regards,
Jenny

No flames, please.

I'm just not interested in opposite opion. I've taken a long time to form my own, and I'm not changing. So don't waste your time. Heck, half the time I can't even make my mind up one way or the other anyway. Bah.

Maybe you've got the same bug?

Try it. Launch a command window. Type "edit test.bat" to create a batch file. Shove the following in it:

:label
dir
goto label

What a coincidence!

The other thing is this :-

I had an

 EXCEPTIONAL OE has occured at 0028:c1001618 in V
x D Emu 10k1 (01) + 00016 c28. This was called
from 0028 : COFF4780 in V x D Emu10K1 (01) +
00009D90

Is this the same problem ?????


Rob *snip*

What was next, then?

I wrote :
Funk knows. We'll probably level the machine and re-install everything. Oooh, I can't wait. Or maybe a "dual boot" system... "With Sound (unstable)" and "Without Sound (solid)". If that fails, I'll probably be buying a different soundcard. Argh!!! One thing's for sure, I aint buying Creative Labs s**** no more.

Update :
Hehe... actually, I'm so impressed with the sound quality that I probably would buy a CL product again - but I might wait until any new product has stabilised. To be fair, in the industry there's a lot of stuff that isn't perfect first time.

I pleaded for assistance ...

So can anyone help?!!

Any help worthy of publishing here will be acknowledged. Go ahead, make my day. Please. Pretty please with a big fat juicy cherry on top. You get the picture. I'm on my knees here. *sob*

I'm trying http://www.cle.creaf.com/sblive/liveware/download.html now... I'll let you know if it works.

And in the end...

UPDATE - 1999-aug-05 17:55 well well well... I downloaded the Liveware stuff. It installed flawlessly, and now... ta da! Everything seems fine. So far. I'll keep my fingers crossed and play some more tomorrow. Gotta scoot home now...

How difficult would it be to keep a list of outstanding reference numbers and send a "mailshot" announcing Liveware?!!!

additional : came back to this machine from the other side of the room only to find the screen totally blank. Ha ha... NT sucks too!

UPDATE - 1999-sep-10 : I have to say... WOW! What a clean sounding card this really is. Excellent, now that it all works OK.

Further thoughts... I guess I didn't miss out on 6 months of use after all. I simply couldn't have what I wanted until the Liveware update was released. Once it was technically possible to achieve what I wanted, with a relatively stable machine, I got what I wanted. All's well that ends well, and all that.

My only problems now are :
a) Software still falls over - illegal instruction etc - in particular Explorer. (No surprise there)
b) I've got to log into Windows TWICE for some obscure reason.
c) I get the dial-up log in dialog when booting up, rather than only when I start something that needs the 'net.
d) My IE4 won't accept cookies, making some web-sites inaccessible. I've set options...advanced...cookies to "always accept" but it still doesn't work!

Open Source, that's the answer

Let's compare with cars. Let's say almost everyone drives expensive vehicles that break down all the time. Sometimes they start kangaroo-ing up the road, and then grind to a halt. You have to get out, get back in again and re-start. The problem disappears for a while. For some reason we all accept this, it's just the way it is. These cars are very complicated - I mean we all add on various extras and we've no idea how it affects the rest of the vehicle. And there's a big chunk of the engine that's completely sealed, so we've no idea what goes on in there - some people do, but there's no point in knowing because we can't change anything.

Sometimes we flick a switch on the dash and nothing happens. Sometimes the car won't start at all. We have to call for help. A technician pulls up and with a puff of magic, the car vanishes into thin air and then a new one slowly re-materialises over the course of an hour or two. Fine, except that you've now lost all your personal belongings that were in the car. Never mind... at least you're on your way.

And in a most weird way, there are some roads you simply cannot drive on unless you trade in your car for a newer model. Strange, that.

Then you meet someone who builds their own kit cars. A group of enthusiasts around the world have figured out how to build a reliable car that doesn't let you down. You can't drive down the exact same roads as everyone else, but somehow alternative routes became available to you. The parts are free, for some reason. Any problems that arise can be fixed in practically no time at all. You may have to learn to drive with different pedals, and there's now fifteen gears to cope with until you figure out how to make it an automatic. But what a refreshing change!

If you took the time to get to know the car, you'd keep it well maintained and spot any problems in time to avoid breaking down. Your motoring worries would be over, and you'd enjoy your transport more than ever. But you might often spend quite some time in the garage, just tinkering.

You decide to keep your existing car. Soon there's going to be a new range of cars for us all to enjoy. They'll be even bigger, and some of the usual problems will have been sorted. There will be others though. And we'll all need to build more roads.

Some of the kit car folk insist on screaming past you on the road, shouting "Loser!" at you. They think they are the elite... ha ha, well maybe in some small way, but let's not go there. It's not very helpful though, it won't change anyone's mind - you just think how sad and arrogant they are. I mean, I've no say in what van I drive at work, and my own car get's me about without too much trouble, even if the horn doesn't work and sometimes the windshield turns blue.

As for the haulage companies, they all use big kit trucks - and they swear by them. All we need is for the enthusiasts to work on making the kit cars more friendly. But why should they care? Hopefully some of them might do...

That's how I view the Linux advocates' slant on things. The problem is, the general public just want a car they can leap into and zoom off in... with no concern about the mechanicals. They all know the layout of the pedals... they can't be bothered to change to the kit car way. If you work as a programmer you may find that compares to a "take me home service" driver - you need to know about your clients' cars, because they all pay for the lousy ones. One day the kit cars will finally be given away in a new way... they'll be just as easy to drive! Oh what a change that'll bring! The old car company shrinks, shrugs and moves onto something else...

Good luck y'all!

Not quite so cheesed off on : 1999-sep-21