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| Stego's FAQ on Nepal travel v.3 - Porters, guides & agencies 2/2 |
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Keywords: Guides & porters, Annapurnas
From: Tokyo ICP <GT5K-DLY@asahi-net.or.jp>
| Date: 96.10.29 | (Id.: 233) |
The Annapurna trek really require little. A day pack is enough for the whole trip, but on some of the side trips to Frenchman's coll are far better with someone who understands the locality and speaks the language.
Disappointingly, few people travel Nepal with binoculars and really miss out on the incredible scenery.
I am a keen birder and always travel with bins and I also give a pair to a porter if I am going to Barun or somewhere similar.
Keywords: Guides & porters
From: Mário Pires <stego@cfn.ist.utl.pt>
| Date: 96.11.02 | (Id.: 232) |
I believe you're right about hiring porters, maybe that enables us to know more of the country and the people. Nevertheless, generally I say to people that there's no need of it and I end up giving the impression that I'm "against". That's mainly because I tend to see guides as a limitation to my freedom, even when they are the kindest persons. I'm not able to be completely cold in my feelings, seeing the porter as someone who is there just to please all my desires, he's a person who has his own schedules and generally expects us to rely much on him to decide where to go, make the schedules, and so on.
I don't like much being guided, I prefer to wander on my own, even knowing that I risk to miss some more interesting spots. That's why I don't like much those places where it can be dangerous to go without a guide or organised tour. I get mad when I have the feeling that if I was without the guide I'd stay there some more time, I'd go "there" and not "there", etc.
Well, that's quite a personal choice!
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Petri Kaipiainen <petkai@nanda.pp.fi>
| Date: 96.10.19 | (Id.: 192) |
This doesn't mean a trekker MUST have a porter. I have trekked in Nepal for a total of 3 months, always with a porter/s and guide, arranged by myself. Next time for a normal trek (no climbing) I would propably not get a porter, as I know my way around pretty good. But for a first timer I recommed a porter/guide.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Manny Freitas <mfreitas@bbnplanet.com>
| Date: 96.10.29 | (Id.: 211) |
: Remember that Nepal people live carrying your stuff. Do you prefer them
: begging or carrying?.
Actually, you're very wrong here.
Nepal is a predominantly agricultural country and Nepal's economy depends greatly in the availablity of a cheap labor force.
The lure of making a bit more money has attracted hundreds of young Nepali from the agricultural fields, where they're needed, to the main cities of Kathmandu and Pokhara, to work as treking porters and guides.
This does not only affect Nepal's agricultural production and economy, but eventually creates a problem until very recently, unheard of in Nepal - unemployment - because as we all who live in a big city know, there just ain't enough jobs for everyone.
So yes, I'd rather see them carrying than begging, but if there are beggers is because of the lure of tourist dollars.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Scott Yost <syost@hephp01.phys.utk.edu>
| Date: 96.10.30 | (Id.: 217) |
>Fulvio Rogantin (rogantin@txt.it) wrote:
>: Remember that Nepal people live carrying your stuff. Do you prefer them
>: begging or carrying?.
>Actually, you're very wrong here.
>Nepal is a predominantly agricultural country and Nepal's economy depends
>greatly in the availablity of a cheap labor force.
>The lure of making a bit more money has attracted hundreds of young
>Nepali from the agricultural fields, where they're needed, to the main
>cities of Kathmandu and Pokhara, to work as treking porters and guides.
If the only form of employment remains agriculture, the people in rural Nepal will be doomed to perpetual poverty. I can hardly blame them for wanting something better, and "carrying stuff" is one of the best routes to a better life many of these people will have. It can be an opportunity to learn English and to have interesting interactions with visitors. These things can help them find better jobs later on. If you are going to visit the country, it is polite to at least do a little for the people there.
Porters do honest work and hiring them can only benefit Nepal's economy, which is going to have to move away from archaic agricultural models if the country is going to progress.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Petri Kaipiainen <petkai@nanda.pp.fi>
| Date: 96.10.31 | (Id.: 193) |
<558ov7$p0m@gaia.ns.u <dokomb-3110961351390001@us-dokomb.student.uu.se>
In article <dokomb-3110961351390001@us-dokomb.student.uu.se>, dokomb@us.uu.se (Per Lowdin) says:
>(beeing a porter) For others it is
>simply being human beasts fo burdens. Humiliating though they may take it
>cheerfully.
>For most nepalli people being a "kisan", a farmer, is something very
>honourable, a lot more so than being a porter. Carryig loads is something
>people only do when they are desperate for cash. Portering is generally
>considered demeaning and humiliating among nepalese too.
You should remember that carrying for trekkers is only a small part of the whole portering trade in Nepal. In the mountains the whole transportation of goods is based on manpower. When trekking you'll see porters carrying machinery, building materials etc not to mention food, kerosene etc.
You'll also notice, that while trekking porters start to complain when their load is over 30 kg (66 lbs) to get more pay, "professional" porters often carry more than 100 kg (220 lbs) loads. Working as a porter for a trekking group is relatively easy, and sometimes quite profitable, as westeners pay above standard wages and give huge tips (bakshees) to ease their bad concience. I have seen some americans tip their kulis for 2 week work more than averige midlevel nepali official earns in 3 months.
While beeing a kuli is not very honorable, it pays a lot better than being a village teacer ar a low level official, for example, who often do not get their salary at all due to governement's financial troubles.
-----------
A word about beggars: there are two kinds of beggars, tourist beggars and "real beggars".
Tourist beggars pester only tourists, they often carry a small baby or try to be as heartbraking as possible. On form of this is small children asking for candy (Bon-bon) or pencils. The rule to remember is: NEVER GIVE THEM ANYTHING! Sounds heartles, but this is the way it should be.
"Real" beaggars would be there even without tourism. They work as a medium for good deeds. One can see them going from shop to shop asking for alms or sitting quietly at temples or on pilgrimages. Usually they not seem to notice tourists. I feel that giving them small coins is ok, as long as it happens as quietly as possible. In a way I identify with them, as I have also recieved alms from walthy Tibetans in Lhasa (without asking). Should have washed my jacket more often?
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Per Löwdin <dokomb@us.uu.se>
| Date: 96.10.31 | (Id.: 202) |
> Remember that Nepal people live carrying your stuff.
Rubbish!!!
Did You ever go there?
>Do you prefer them begging or carrying?.
The questions is racist and stupid. To understand why just ask Your self which would You prefer: to carry 40 kgs on Himalayan pathes for hard-currency-pigs for a poor wage and a lousy diet of rice and lentils or to beg in the streets of wherever You come from?
I would prefer to see Nepal developed so people can have a good life.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Per Löwdin <dokomb@us.uu.se>
| Date: 96.10.31 | (Id.: 204) |
> In article <555imq$39m@mercury.bbnplanet.com>,
> Manny Freitas <mfreitas@bbnplanet.com> wrote:
> >Fulvio Rogantin (rogantin@txt.it) wrote:
> >: Remember that Nepal people live carrying your stuff. Do you prefer them
> >: begging or carrying?.
> >
> >Actually, you're very wrong here.
> >Nepal is a predominantly agricultural country and Nepal's economy depends
> >greatly in the availablity of a cheap labor force.
> >The lure of making a bit more money has attracted hundreds of young
> >Nepali from the agricultural fields, where they're needed, to the main
> >cities of Kathmandu and Pokhara, to work as treking porters and guides.
> If the only form of employment remains agriculture, the people in rural
> Nepal will be doomed to perpetual poverty. I can hardly blame them for
> wanting something better, and "carrying stuff" is one of the best routes
> to a better life many of these people will have.
It would be nice if You were right. However, I am afraid that portering is not a carriaire. (sorry for the spelling if it is wrong)
> It can be an opportunity
> to learn English and to have interesting interactions with visitors. These
> things can help them find better jobs later on.
Yes: for kids just out of high school and students. For others it is simply being human beasts fo burdens. Humiliating though they may take it cheerfully.
> If you are going to visit
> the country, it is polite to at least do a little for the people there.
> Porters do honest work and hiring them can only benefit Nepal's economy, True: it is a significant source of cash for some people. Particularly Rai, Limbu and Tamang.
> which is going to have to move away from archaic agricultural models if
> the country is going to progress.
For most nepalli people being a "kisan", a farmer, is something very honourable, a lot more so than being a porter. Carryig loads is something people only do when they are desperate for cash. Portering is generally considered demeaning and humiliating among nepalese too. Being a guide is of course a different matter. There is nothing progressive about turning Nepal into a nation of porters.
Please note: I am not saying that it is wrong in all situations to employ porters what I react against is idealizing it making it seem like something desirable or progressive. To me the fact that a lot of people find no other way to earn money is a sign that there are hellish aspects of Nepal.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Manny Freitas <mfreitas@bbnplanet.com>
| Date: 96.10.31 | (Id.: 212) |
: In article <555imq$39m@mercury.bbnplanet.com>,
: Manny Freitas <mfreitas@bbnplanet.com> wrote:
: >Fulvio Rogantin (rogantin@txt.it) wrote:
: >: Remember that Nepal people live carrying your stuff. Do you prefer them
: >: begging or carrying?.
: >
: >Actually, you're very wrong here.
: >Nepal is a predominantly agricultural country and Nepal's economy depends
: >greatly in the availablity of a cheap labor force.
: >The lure of making a bit more money has attracted hundreds of young
: >Nepali from the agricultural fields, where they're needed, to the main
: >cities of Kathmandu and Pokhara, to work as treking porters and guides.
: If the only form of employment remains agriculture, the people in rural
: Nepal will be doomed to perpetual poverty. I can hardly blame them for
: wanting something better, and "carrying stuff" is one of the best routes
: to a better life many of these people will have. It can be an opportunity
: to learn English and to have interesting interactions with visitors. These
: things can help them find better jobs later on. If you are going to visit
: the country, it is polite to at least do a little for the people there.
: Porters do honest work and hiring them can only benefit Nepal's economy,
: which is going to have to move away from archaic agricultural models if
: the country is going to progress.
: Scott
: --
I didn't say it was the ONLY form of employment, but it is the predominat form of living for most Nepalese. And one way or another, their economy depends on it.
For the average visitor, it might be easy to understand why they would want something better than working the fields. You see, your country is rich enough to buy machinery to take the place of the people, and can afford to import what it can't produce. But in Nepal, when the young and the strong leave the agricultural field to go to the cities in search of a "better life", which is not always true, the country stops producing enough "rice" for everyone. And because it can't afford to import or buy advanced machinery to replace people, the prices go up, poverty increases, and child malnutrition becomes the rule. Fortunately it hasn't quite reached those levels but at the rate it's going, it won't be long.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Val Rayzman <valr@earthlink.net>
| Date: 96.11.01 | (Id.: 186) |
>Scott Yost (syost@hephp01.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
>: In article <555imq$39m@mercury.bbnplanet.com>,
>: Manny Freitas <mfreitas@bbnplanet.com> wrote:
>: >Fulvio Rogantin (rogantin@txt.it) wrote:
>: >: Remember that Nepal people live carrying your stuff. Do you prefer them
>: >: begging or carrying?.
>: >
>: >Actually, you're very wrong here.
>: >Nepal is a predominantly agricultural country and Nepal's economy depends
>: >greatly in the availablity of a cheap labor force.
>: >The lure of making a bit more money has attracted hundreds of young
>: >Nepali from the agricultural fields, where they're needed, to the main
>: >cities of Kathmandu and Pokhara, to work as treking porters and guides.
>: If the only form of employment remains agriculture, the people in rural
>: Nepal will be doomed to perpetual poverty. I can hardly blame them for
>: wanting something better, and "carrying stuff" is one of the best routes
>: to a better life many of these people will have. It can be an opportunity
>: to learn English and to have interesting interactions with visitors. These
>: things can help them find better jobs later on. If you are going to visit
>: the country, it is polite to at least do a little for the people there.
>: Porters do honest work and hiring them can only benefit Nepal's economy,
>: which is going to have to move away from archaic agricultural models if
>: the country is going to progress.
>: Scott
>: --
>I didn't say it was the ONLY form of employment, but it is the predominat
>form of living for most Nepalese. And one way or another, their economy
>depends on it.
>For the average visitor, it might be easy to understand why they would want
>something better than working the fields. You see, your country is rich enough
>to buy machinery to take the place of the people, and can afford to import
>what it can't produce. But in Nepal, when the young and the strong leave the
>agricultural field to go to the cities in search of a "better life",
>which is not always true, the country stops producing enough "rice"
>for everyone. And because it can't afford to import or buy advanced
>machinery to replace people, the prices go up, poverty increases, and
>child malnutrition becomes the rule. Fortunately it hasn't quite reached
>those levels but at the rate it's going, it won't be long.
> - Manuel.
The young and strong will always leave the fields and go to the cities. It happened in the States, it happened in Europe and recently it happened in all the Asian "tigers". It will happen in Nepal.
In the US, the population employed in agriculture has gone down from (I'm using rough numbers from memory) 80% to 7% during the last 100 years. While this happened, the country became net food exporter. To say that if someone leaves the fields to become a porter for 5x wage, the people will starve is poor economics at best. The person who works for $1/day adds $1/day of value. When he becomes a porter for $5/day, he adds $5 of value and Nepal is $4 richer.
Does tourism have negative side effects? Of course it does. But leave it to Nepalese to decide for themselves where they should live and what they should do.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Per Löwdin <dokomb@us.uu.se>
| Date: 96.11.01 | (Id.: 205) |
Manuel has a sympathetic attitude though I am afraid he has got some facts wrong.
: >Nepal is a predominantly agricultural country and Nepal's economy depends
: >greatly in the availablity of a cheap labor force.
Well, most households are self-employded farmers. Consequently most labour never gets a price tag. Even when one works other peoples fields it is often done on an exchange basis: my field today, your field tomorrow, etc.
: >The lure of making a bit more money has attracted hundreds of young
: >Nepali from the agricultural fields, True!
: > where they're needed, Not true! Your argument is based on the assumption that there is no limit to the amount of land. The facts are:
i) there is not enough land for all to be farmers and the yields are often poor, the bulk of food produced in Nepal is grown in the Terai, whereas the hilly regions import food, not due to lack of labour but due to lack of suitable agricultural land.
ii) agricultural employment varies with the seasons. There are seasons when it will be next impossible to find someone who is willing to porter for foreigners or anyone else: e.g., during rice-transplantation, and harvests. Then the farmers will work very long days often go up in the middle of the night too to manage irrigation channels etc, and they will have no time at all for portering or even chatting with foreigners. In other seasons they may have plenty of time and be quite willing to work as porters.
: >to the main
: >cities of Kathmandu and Pokhara, to work as treking porters and guides.
Most probably You can find examples of sons who have desserted their widdowed disabled mothers without help in mountains. But, generally speaking, that some of the young migrate to the cities or even to Darjeeling, Sikkim, Bhutan and Assam is not a problem to the local economy. Especially if the land does not produce enough. Then migration often leads to that they send cash home to their village so their family can get things that can not be produced in the village: e.g., carosene, cloth, spices, supplementary food.
It should also be mentionend that most migration in Nepal has nothing to do with tourism. Newars migrate all over the country to put up shops or work in government offices. A signifant portion of the Gurung and Magar castes are mercenaries in foreign armies for long enought to earn a pension (12 yrs) which will be a cash injection in to the local economy when theyr return to their families. Other castes migrate in search of new agricultural land. In some areas east of Nepal nepalispeakers have become the dominating people (Darjeeling, Sikkim).
No doubt some migration has been caused by tourism. Some adventurous young men go to Kathmandu and try to find work, as menials in hotels and as porters and guides. There has also been a lot of migration along the major trekking routes. As Nepali trekking is regulated most tourists are only on three routes: Annapurna, Lantang and Solu-Khumbu. And, a lot of people have migrated to set up hotels along these routes. However, in my opinion, this does not damage the local economy. Some ecological degradation occurrs. Mainly due to the fact that the trekking permit system leads to an extreme koncentration of tourists to a few areas. Hopefully, the government will abolish it and replace it with a flat trekking tax. Then the benefits of foreing tourism would become more evenly spread over the country.
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Per Löwdin <dokomb@us.uu.se>
| Date: 96.11.01 | (Id.: 206) |
> A word about beggars: there are two kinds of beggars, tourist beggars and
> "real beggars".
I donīt think the nepalese make this distinction. Though there are some beggars who hang around foreingers alot, particularly in Thamel and around Basantipur.
> Tourist beggars pester only tourists, they often carry a small baby or try
> to be as heartbraking as possible. On form of this is small children
> asking for candy (Bon-bon) or pencils. The rule to remember is: NEVER GIVE
> THEM ANYTHING! Sounds heartles, but this is the way it should be.
> "Real" beaggars would be there even without tourism. They work as a medium
> for good deeds. One can see them going from shop to shop asking for alms
> or sitting quietly at temples or on pilgrimages. Usually they not seem to
> notice tourists. I feel that giving them small coins is ok, as long as it
> happens as quietly as possible.
Of course it is OK. As I see it it is a matter of social policy. In the west we pay taxes and the state looks after the people who cannot manage.
In India and Nepal people give to beggars instead. I prefer to pay tax.
But when social policy does not work I gladly give beggars money. Though with some caution. Those that pester tourists I also stay away from simply because if You give once You are never left in peace. Those that circulate around the bazaar we give small bills or coins. Their game is sort of to come and stand outside shops that are buisy and stare in a conciously disturbing way in order to be payed of with a small bill. Then, they go and stare in the next shop. It is pointless to get annoyed. It is better to give a rupee or two and perhaps gain some divine merit in the process.
When I was resident in Kathmandu I always gave ONE beggar something everyday I saw him to make a contribution and still avoiding to get pestered.
> In a way I identify with them, as I have
> also recieved alms from walthy Tibetans in Lhasa (without asking). Should
> have washed my jacket more often?
Probably: Yes!
Keywords: Polemic, Guides & porters
From: Manny Freitas <mfreitas@bbnplanet.com>
| Date: 96.11.01 | (Id.: 213) |
: In article <55afnv$ogm@mercury.bbnplanet.com>, mfreitas@bbnplanet.com
: (Manny Freitas) wrote:
: Manuel has a sympathetic attitude though I am afraid he has got some facts
: wrong.
: [...]
Geez, thanks!
Both you and Scott have make good arguments, and you're both right to some extent. Economics is a very complex science, and for me to try and discuss it is to go way out of my range of experties :-) My statements are based on my own experince, not on any scientific studies, but I'm not saying that I have all the reason either.
Someone posted here a statement saying, more or less that, the Nepalese were there for carrying. You have to agree that this is a false, if not rude and even racist, coment. And as Scott said, tourism can be blamed for lots of bad things, but it can also do some good. In my eyes, I feel it's kinda degrading to see people being treated like beasts of burden.
And Per, I do know that the Terai is just about the only productive land in Nepal. And Scott, the reason why agricultural producton grew in the US, even after such a huge decline in manpower, was because of sophisticated machinery and improvements in the Biotech industry, none of which exists in Nepal.
Nonetheless, you both make good arguments, and I can tell you right now, it's great to be able to discuss this kind of things whith people who know better that to just say: "Go, hire a porter, it will be great. It only costs a few bucks a day and they can carry all the stuff for you."
By the way, Per, is it really true that they're rethinking the trekking permits??? That could generate some good arguing too :-)
Manuel.
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© J. Mário Pires, 4 Mar 97
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