Email Archive H

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:54:12 +0100
From: steve
Subject: Re: Stories

>I have do some questions/observations:
>
>When Jamie finishes massaging the Peppermint Foot Lotion on Ste's back, he
>asks Ste to turnover to massage some on Ste's chest. Ste emphatically says
>no and asks Jamie to turn the lights out, not once but twice. Then Ste
>raises up just enough to get the comforter from under him so he can cover
>up. Does Ste have an erection and doesn't want Jamie to see it???? Is he
>turned on and doesn't understand or know how to handle it? Been there, done
>that.
I think he has, that would explain his behaviour
>Why does Ste bring Jamie a knit cap after calling him a fucking queer and
>deserting him at the party? I mean, I can understand why Ste wants to
>"apologize" to Jamie and a gift is a thoughtful means for Ste to express
>this apology. But why a knit cap? What am I missing? It's the middle of a
>heat wave. Is there some other significance to the knit cap?
>
Sandra gives ste money to buy something for his girlfriend, so he buys a
present for Jamie. And a knit cap? I think because it's hip/modern, and
people would not associate it as a gift (what they would do with a ring), so
it is inconspicuous for the people around them
>That night after Ste brings Jamie that knit cap and they both look at the
>"Gay Times," do they sleep together again?? Or is Ste's sleeping over tied
>to his beatings at the hands of Ronnie and/or Trevor? Small point really.
>Just curious on your thoughts.
I think they sleep together again.
>I was curious about the origins of the word "pooftah." Jamie yells this at
>Tony in a string of words to describe who he is after Jamie has come out to
>Sandra. The Oxford English Dictionary Supplement says that it comes from
>Australian slang, a fanciful extension of poof, pooff, pouf, or pouve. Also
>spelled poofter, poufter and pufter. Ian Fleming uses it in You Only Live
>Twice: "You pommy poofter." ..Bond said mildly, "What's a poofter?" "What
>you'd call a pansy." My God, how many words we have for this condition!!!!
In my English-Dutch dictionary I see that the word Poof means queer, gay. So
yes we have many words for this condition!! And that is only in English,
then you have many more in Dutch, German etc etc. Then you certainly know
that you can explain what we are 8-)

>The music really is a key part to the whole: From the title song It's
>Getting Better: "..with me an' you, it just started quietly and grew."
>"...holding you at night just seems kind of natural an' right." To Make
>Your Own Kind of Music for Jamie and Ste's celebration of freedom in the
>woods: "...they may try to sell ya, 'cause it hangs them up to see someone
>like you." "...it may be rough goin', just to do your thing's the hardest
>thing to do." To finally Dream a Little Dream of Me for the slow dance:
>"...just hold me tight n' tell me you'll miss me while I'm alone n' blue as
>can be." <cut> I wish I had known the words to the songs when I was
watching the movie as
>well as I do now. It will make it a lot more meaningful experience when I
>see it the next time.
Yes this is amazing! It's almost if she knew that this movie will be made
almost 20 (?) years after her death. Did you know that the cause of her
death is the cause they tell in the movie? It's true she is really choked in
a sandwich. She got a hardattack after she was choked. It's sad but true.
>One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
>Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't know
>if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
>Knowing what I have been through and how much Jamie and Ste have agonized
>over their decision, I just don't think it's that easy to all of a sudden
>"jump on the band wagon" so to speak. What appears to be a spur of the
>moment decision on Sandra's part seems to trivialize what I know and what I
>am sure Jamie and Ste would know to be a long and involved decision. Jamie
>and Ste had to fight both with each other and with their peers for every
>feeling they share. What agonizing has Leah or Sandra done? I just don't
>think it's fair for Jamie and Ste to have to share the "spotlight" with
>Sandra and Leah both of whom have just up and kind of made a spur of the
>moment "feel good" decision. Your thoughts??
I think that specially that action of Sandra and Leah is great, because:
1. They support them with their action;
2. It's an extra provocation to the neighbourhood;
3. They watch the reaction of the neighbourhood and do not shut their
eyes, just as Ste and Jamie do;
4. It's the perfect 'happy ending' of a urban fairy-tale;
5. Don't you all wish your mother or father would do this as a reaction
on your actions? It would be great that they could support us like
this! 8-)
These are my answers on the questions, maybe other people will have other
answers.
Greetings,
Keesjan
Amsterdam

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:22:33 +1100
From: Trent
Subject: Stories

Hello everyone :)
>One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
>Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't know
>if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
Yeah, a few people have mentioned that, and I thought different things when
I saw it. Many of the reviewers seem to think that it is them converting,
but in my opinion it is to signify two things. One, that Sandra and Leah
have put all the crap that is betweeen them behind them once and for all.
Two, it could possibly signify that both Sandra and Leah accept and do not
have a problem with Jamie and Ste's relationship/sexuality.
That was all :) Information to note:
The Beautiful Thing Soundtrack CD is being released in Australia on
Monday, March 3, 1997 - which is in a couple of days time. The cover is
not the blue one with Jamie and Ste hugging on the front, it is the
colourful cast shot that was on many of the promotional posters. I
understand that that is the UK version, and the blue one is the US
version. We're getting the UK one. :) So there you go.
Take care!
Trent
Sydney, Australia.

**************************************************************

From: "Tony
Subject: Re: Stories
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:08:27 -0000

Hi, Everyone.
I'm Tony, I'm 25 years old and I live in East London in England and have
been subscribed to this list since the beginning of February.
I haven't participated as yet mainly due to the fact I never took the film
as literally as you all seem to have done. Don't get me wrong I think the
film is
wonderful, mainly due to the mixed emotions I got from watching it and how
I wish i'd started my gay life that way instead of suppressing my feelings
until I was 24. I First saw the film in June last year and I also have the
Beautiful Thing video, mainly thanks to Virgin releasing it late last year
and have watched it a number of times as well as passing it on to other gay
friends, male and female, for them to enjoy too.
I Felt I should respond to 'JW's message to give my opinions on some of his
questions
JW wrote :
> Shaun,
> You're right it has gotten quiet.
> Here's my submission to the Beautiful Thing Guestbook for
January.
> I hope this generates some interesting discussion.
>
> I saw Beautiful Thing three times when it was here for a two week run in
> Baltimore. I wish I had seen it every night. Talk about getting hit
with a
> ton of bricks. It really is a story about falling in love. I can see
> myself in either character in different scenes of the movie. Jonathan
> Harvey has really captured the true feelings of what it is to be young,
gay
> and uncontrollably in love. I'm still one of those 16 year old boys at
> heart. It is a fantasy though. I wish it were that easy. How many
times
> have I wanted to raise up as Jamie does and kiss the man I was with? I
envy
> youth today having the freedom they do. To express openly gay feelings
and
> not having a complete shroud of doom and condemnation befall them. I
have
> faced so many forks in the road over the years and I have taken the ones
> that have driven me farther into the closet because of that fear. So far
> into the closet now that I don't even know which way the door is. Maybe
> it's not that I don't know where the door is so much, as it is that I'm
> terrified of opening it. Whatever. I guess this really shouldn't be so
> much about me as it should be about the movie anyway.
>
> I probably have over analyzed the movie. I cannot wait until the video
> comes out though!! Can I last until April or May?? How many times will
I
> watch it then?
>
> I have do some questions/observations:
>
> When Jamie finishes massaging the Peppermint Foot Lotion on Ste's back,
he
> asks Ste to turnover to massage some on Ste's chest. Ste emphatically
says
> no and asks Jamie to turn the lights out, not once but twice. Then Ste
> raises up just enough to get the comforter from under him so he can cover
> up. Does Ste have an erection and doesn't want Jamie to see it???? Is
he
> turned on and doesn't understand or know how to handle it? Been there,
done
> that.
The way the scene was played would indicate that Ste has an erection and
doesn't
want Jamie to see it.
>
> Why does Ste bring Jamie a knit cap after calling him a fucking queer and
> deserting him at the party? I mean, I can understand why Ste wants to
> "apologize" to Jamie and a gift is a thoughtful means for Ste to express
> this apology. But why a knit cap? What am I missing? It's the middle
of a
> heat wave. Is there some other significance to the knit cap?
The Knit cap was bought with the money Sandra gave him to buy his supposed
girlfriend a present. I don't
think there is any significance to it, I'd assume Ste had no idea what to
buy him and could only come up with
the knit cap as a last resort.
> That night after Ste brings Jamie that knit cap and they both look at the
> "Gay Times," do they sleep together again?? Or is Ste's sleeping over
tied
> to his beatings at the hands of Ronnie and/or Trevor? Small point
really.
> Just curious on your thoughts.
If i remember correctly, I don't have the video at hand to check, I think
Ste gets up in the morning and he is naked. Which would
certainly indicate to me that they slept together in some form or other.
> I was curious about the origins of the word "pooftah." Jamie yells this
at
> Tony in a string of words to describe who he is after Jamie has come out
to
> Sandra. The Oxford English Dictionary Supplement says that it comes from
> Australian slang, a fanciful extension of poof, pooff, pouf, or pouve.
Also
> spelled poofter, poufter and pufter. Ian Fleming uses it in You Only
Live
> Twice: "You pommy poofter." ..Bond said mildly, "What's a poofter?"
"What
> you'd call a pansy." My God, how many words we have for this
condition!!!!
I'm not really sure of the history of the word poofter, but in my lifetime
it has always meant another word for being gay.
> Bubble and Squeek: the early edition of the Oxford English Dictionary
> defines it as "a dish of meat and cabbage fired up together, the name
> referring to the sounds made in cooking this dish." However, the
Supplement
> has a VERY interesting definition!!!! Among other modern preparations of
> the dish, Bubble and Squeek is also defined as rhyming slang for beak or
> GREEK!!!! A 1968 usage example goes like this: "Why do they call Greek
> children 'Bubbles'? said Mr. Colindes to me...Later, it dawned on me that
it
> was short for 'bubble-and-squeek'; rhyming slang." Check it out!!!
> Jonathan Harvey, you sly devil you!! Are you trying to slip something in
on
> us??? Or is it just coincidence??? Makes you think!!!! Bubble and
Squeek
> = Greek!!!!
You're right Bubble and Squeek has always been cockney rhyming slang for
greek, However in the
films case I would say it wasn't intended in that manner. The dish bubble
and squeek is very common
over here. My mother used to make it out of the leftovers of the sunday
roast. I never ate it myself but my
mother loved it.
> The music really is a key part to the whole: From the title song It's
> Getting Better: "..with me an' you, it just started quietly and grew."
> "...holding you at night just seems kind of natural an' right." To Make
> Your Own Kind of Music for Jamie and Ste's celebration of freedom in the
> woods: "...they may try to sell ya, 'cause it hangs them up to see
someone
> like you." "...it may be rough goin', just to do your thing's the
hardest
> thing to do." To finally Dream a Little Dream of Me for the slow dance:
> "...just hold me tight n' tell me you'll miss me while I'm alone n' blue
as
> can be." I bought a cassette tape of Mama Cass's music that has these
three
> songs right in a row. I also have the sound track CD. Great pictures
with
> the CD! I listen to the music continuously driving on my forty minute
> commute back and forth to work. It keeps the feelings fresh and alive.
I
> wish I had known the words to the songs when I was watching the movie as
> well as I do now. It will make it a lot more meaningful experience when
I
> see it the next time.
>
> One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
> Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't
know
> if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
> Knowing what I have been through and how much Jamie and Ste have agonized
> over their decision, I just don't think it's that easy to all of a sudden
> "jump on the band wagon" so to speak. What appears to be a spur of the
> moment decision on Sandra's part seems to trivialize what I know and what
I
> am sure Jamie and Ste would know to be a long and involved decision.
Jamie
> and Ste had to fight both with each other and with their peers for every
> feeling they share. What agonizing has Leah or Sandra done? I just
don't
> think it's fair for Jamie and Ste to have to share the "spotlight" with
> Sandra and Leah both of whom have just up and kind of made a spur of the
> moment "feel good" decision. Your thoughts??
I think Sandra's reason for doing this is not to show she has converted
sexuality, (there was no indication
in the film that she had), more to show support for her Sons decision to be
gay, and that she is proud of that
decision and does not think there is anything wrong with members of the
same sex being together.
I find this scene more fantasy than reality anyway, I feel it is a picture
of how it should be rather than how it really is.

Tony.

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:51:43 +1100
From: Graeme
Subject: Re: Stories

> One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
> Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't know
> if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
> Knowing what I have been through and how much Jamie and Ste have agonized
> over their decision, I just don't think it's that easy to all of a sudden
> "jump on the band wagon" so to speak. What appears to be a spur of the
> moment decision on Sandra's part seems to trivialize what I know and what I
> am sure Jamie and Ste would know to be a long and involved decision. Jamie
> and Ste had to fight both with each other and with their peers for every
> feeling they share. What agonizing has Leah or Sandra done? I just don't
> think it's fair for Jamie and Ste to have to share the "spotlight" with
> Sandra and Leah both of whom have just up and kind of made a spur of the
> moment "feel good" decision. Your thoughts??
Sandra and Leah are dancing as a show of support for the boys. It's not
meant to imply anything sexual. They're saying "up yours" to everyone
watching in the crowd.
You've really got to come to terms with that wonderful British sense of
humour. It really influences so many of the scenes and if you're not
tuned into it, you can completely misunderstand what's happening.
Oh, great post by the way.
Graeme
Sydney, Australia.

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:53:50 +0100
From: spoony
Subject: Bummer!

Hey'all,
Im kinda new here...saw "B-thing" last friday(21-02)...man..best movie
ive ever seen!!been floating since...wanted to see it again today but
just found out they stopped playing it!That sucks!TOTAL BUMMER!!Hope the
video gets out soon...cant wait...Read that they're trying to get Bthing
T-shirts,...that would be really neat!!Seems a great way to let
people(and esp. soulmates) know who/what I am....hope they dont make it
too explicit though...I've been walking around with a big michael stipe
face-blow-up-tshirt but that doesnt seem
to sort any effect,..thought even of wearing a Morrissey t-shirt...but
he's even more obscure than Stipe...Oh I really wish that it would be
easier to get connected... Oh..Read something really horrible last
week...It was about a nobelprize winner(american) who stated that when
scientist find the gen responsable for homosexuality ,people should be
able to prefer a str8 baby above a gay child...That's so
horrible!Really...
well...gotta go now ,i'll write some more later,
see ya!
bye
spoony

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 00:23:40 +1300
From: Christopher
Subject: Re: Stories

Hope this helps! This is my interpretation, for what it's worth.
> I have do some questions/observations:
>
> When Jamie finishes massaging the Peppermint Foot Lotion on Ste's back, he
> asks Ste to turnover to massage some on Ste's chest. Ste emphatically says
> no and asks Jamie to turn the lights out, not once but twice. Then Ste
> raises up just enough to get the comforter from under him so he can cover
> up. Does Ste have an erection and doesn't want Jamie to see it???? Is he
> turned on and doesn't understand or know how to handle it? Been there, done
> that.
YES! The play seems to emphasise this in the stage directions.
> Why does Ste bring Jamie a knit cap after calling him a fucking queer and
> deserting him at the party? I mean, I can understand why Ste wants to
> "apologize" to Jamie and a gift is a thoughtful means for Ste to express
> this apology. But why a knit cap? What am I missing? It's the middle of a
> heat wave. Is there some other significance to the knit cap?
Sandra gives him the money to buy something for his "bird" and since he
and Jamie are kinda an item I presume the present to his bird is the cap
for Jamie. The irony of Sandra giving money for hime to buy something
for a "girlfriend" when all along it's her son.
> That night after Ste brings Jamie that knit cap and they both look at the
> "Gay Times," do they sleep together again?? Or is Ste's sleeping over tied
> to his beatings at the hands of Ronnie and/or Trevor? Small point really.
> Just curious on your thoughts.
I don't think so, because they talk about how akward it is being between
the 2 houses and the whole deaf aunt thing isn't even right, so I don't
think he sleeps with him again that night, because they need to
emphasise the need for a place to feel totally "alright", i.e the
Glouchester
> I was curious about the origins of the word "pooftah." Jamie yells this at
> Tony in a string of words to describe who he is after Jamie has come out to
> Sandra. The Oxford English Dictionary Supplement says that it comes from
> Australian slang, a fanciful extension of poof, pooff, pouf, or pouve. Also
> spelled poofter, poufter and pufter. Ian Fleming uses it in You Only Live
> Twice: "You pommy poofter." ..Bond said mildly, "What's a poofter?" "What
> you'd call a pansy." My God, how many words we have for this condition!!!!
We used to call these soft cushion chairs "poofters", so I guess it
follows in the line of that sort of insult.
> One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
> Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't know
> if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
> I just don't think it's fair for Jamie and Ste to have to share the "spotlight" with
> Sandra and Leah both of whom have just up and kind of made a spur of the
> moment "feel good" decision. Your thoughts??
I don't think they were converted, it was merely like friends rallying
around friends. They merely emphasised the fact that same sex couples
were normal, that life is so different and here we have 2 couples
dancing together, no matter what sexual preference or age etc. It is
merely a theatrical device which I guess can be a bit lost on film, but
it merely is the "fairytale" ending. I don't even think leah is
lesbian, it's in her character's "shock" tactic personality that
motivates her to dance in support. Thus her Mum and friends snubbing
their nose snad being proud of the fact that they are dancing, it is the
support thing again.
> I could go on and on. Probably too long already.
Me too buddy, I already have.
Take Care All
JAMES

**************************************************************

Date: 28 Feb 1997 09:30:51 -0500
From: "John
Subject: unsubscribe

please remove my name from the mailing list -- thanks

**************************************************************

From: "David
Subject: Unsubscribing from the list
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:49:59 -0000

The instructions for unsubscribing from the list were sent to you when you joined.
In case you have lost that email, I'll repeat the instructions here.
Send an email to FTList@zzapps.demon.co.uk with the first line
LEAVE beautiful-thing
Simple really!
Davie.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Beautiful Thing web http://www.zzapps.demon.co.uk/beautiful-thing/

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:17:21 -0600
From: JOE
Subject: Re: Stories

Well, I know I'm going to have fun this weekend...
The shipment from amazon.com books arrived today!
So I've got both the stage play _and_ the screenplay to read. The
screenplay has some great black and white photos from the film too.
Well, time to go do some reading.. :)
Gary

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:05:15 +0100 (MET)
From: Xavier
Subject: Your mail to beautiful-thing list.

Hi Tony,
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Tony wrote:
> Hi, Everyone.
>
> I'm Tony, I'm 25 years old and I live in East London in England and have
> been subscribed to this list since the beginning of February.
> I haven't participated as yet mainly due to the fact I never took the film
> as literally as you all seem to have done.
I'm Xavier, I'm 24 and I'm in Geneva for a year, but I live in Madrid
(Spain), I liked your mail because I feel the same about the movie than
you. I really enjoyed the movie, but not to the extent of seeing it 12
times or so. I will probably buy it if I find it on video, but I can wait
until this moment arrives :) And, of course, I've recommended the film to
a lot of friends.
I agree with you in the interpretations of the movie scenes, specially
about the final one with the dancing. It's a fantasy, but one feels good
seeing it, yes?
Bye,

Xavier.

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:15:17 -0800
From: Jay
Subject: Re: Stories -Reply

One aspect of Beautiful Thing that I haven't seen discussed on this list
yet is Jamie's relationship to Sandra, so I leap in with this:
I think that the story is as much about this relationship as it is about Jamie
and Ste. Sandra has a unique position in the story: She is the only "real"
adult character. Ste's father (who is only an off-stage voice in the play),
is "dead to the world" (in Ste's words). Tony is a "Peter Pan", not ready
for adult responsibility. Sandra is responsible, moving forward, "getting
better". SHE is the only tenant with flowers outside her door, bright
colors inside. She starts out with one kid - Jamie, but by the end she has
"adopted" two others. From Sandra's point of view, this is the
significance of the final scene, I think - she has taken all three kids under
her wing, emotionally. And they all need her - her determination to
succeed, to "get better", to live.
The real man in Sandra's life is Jamie. The boyfriends come and go
(somehow we know Tony's doomed from the start), but she has her
Jamie, and can imagine "you and me curled up on this [sofa] on a
winter's evening".
In the beginning of the film Jamie is a child in her eyes, he even wets his
pants still ("so 'e 'ad a littl' accident, y'know" she tells Miss Chuan").
Sandra is still playing the sexy young thing - the sexual focus of the
household is on her.
Jamie's sexual awakening begins when he sleeps with Ste the first time.
During the wet-kit-in-the-dryer scene Jonathan has "Welcome to the
world of Love" playing in the background. In the next scene Jamie is
emboldened to challenge with his mother's sexual displays in no
uncertain adult terms - leading to their fight, an amazing scene that
always leaves me in tears. Afterwords, he asks her "am I like my dad?"
and she says "no, you're like me".
That night Jamie is emboldened to seduce Ste. It is not easy, but he
succeeds. He has the same determination, the same
push-forward-with- it attitude, and the same basic self-confidence as
his mother. ("you're like me. You're alright.").
Jamie keeps working on his relationship with Ste even when he is cruely
rebuffed, and when Sandra notices Ste's weird behavior and asks
Jamies what's going on, Jamie has the genius to reply "he's in love". He
is like his mother - he's going to suceed, he's not going to let life get him
down.
Sandra unwittingly helps Jamie to get Ste back, and when she finally
begins to figure out what's going on, she insists on communicating with
her son, she won't let him hide. In theatrical terms, the "denument" of the
story is clearly the "don't cry" scene. At first Jamie is still in external
denial when she confronts him about going to the Glouchester ("doesn't
mean I'm gay"), but under her cross-examination he is finally reduced to
"some things just can't be said". This is the classic "don't ask-don't tell"
stage that most of us, I'm afraid, never go beyond.
Sandra pushes him further, won't accept that for an answer, even
though she's not sure she wants to hear the facts, she wants the truth.
"I'm your mother!" she says, meaning (I think) if you can't be honest with
your mother, who can you be honest with? And Jamie goes there - he
has a breakthrough. Now, through his tears, he can talk about it. And
Sandra's next line always brings me to tears as well: "I'm not gonna put
you out in the morning like and empty bottle!".
Remember, just a few scenes before she was threatening "if this was
my bar, I'd have you kicked out..." Jamie's biggest fear has been
rejection by his mother, now they cling to each other in tearful
reconciliation. What has changed? Now she knows her son has
become a man; he has come of age. Also he's gay, but that, I think, is
secondary in her mind.
Typically, she makes a joke abouty it, which goes over Jamie's head at
first (and a lot of the audience as well) ("and all the time you were doing
seventy minus one" (=69 GET IT?)). Then we are off into the next phase
of their relationship: "I like the boy, but he hasn't seen the world!" Well,
duh! Sandra has married Jamie to Ste in her mind already! When Jamie
replies "he's good to me" Sandra bursts into tears and runs out of the
room...why? Because now she knows she's lost him - at least that
romantic relationship with him that has been her mainstay.
Funny - Ste's really not good to Jamie; he's been a shit, mostly, but the
point for Sandra is that she sees that he's really in love with Ste... now
everything has changed.
But she quickly adjusts - she's been "fighting for 'im" all her life, and
she's not going to stop now. At first she is reluctant to accept Ste's new
status in her and Jamie's life, ( typical of a mother-in-law), while Ste is
almost obsiquious towards her ("that's my name Ste, don't wear it out").
But, by the final scene she has joined in with the dance, and is joking
with Ste in her typical way ("if your father could see you now.."). The
looks she gives to the community gathering around them as they dance
are clearly challenging, like a mother hen protecting her chicks (now
numbering 3). This final scene reminds me of a wedding - a ceremonial
witnessing of the union of Jamie and Ste, supported by Sandra and
Leah. Sandra and Leah joined ARE a fearsome feminist force. Their
support of Jaime and Ste is cruicial to the success of the relationship.
I think that this is where the story touches me most deeply - the
acceptance and love by women for gay men and vice versa. The "it's
alright, I'm not going to kick you out". It's an area of the gay psyche that
has hardly been discussed or explored on the popular level.
Strangely, after 12 or 13 viewings, the scene that brings out the most
tears for me in the end is Jamie and his mother visiting her new pub.
They are still together, more than ever. Will Sandra get a new boyfriend?
Or will she take Tony back? Will Jamie and Ste stay together? How
long? One thing I'm sure, Sandra and Jamie will be close their whole
lives now...
The movie tells the story of Jamie's sexual awakening, and Sandra's
adjustment to it. By the end of the story she has changed her attitude
toward him, kicked out her boyfriend, and gotten a new job, and gotten
them out of Thamesmead. They both grow up some, and all have their
Beautiful Thing moment.
Well, it's probably a little over-analysed (A LITTLE?), but there you have
it...Sorry, lads for going on so long.... your thoughts?

:o) jay

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:31:55 -0800
From: Mike
Subject: Re: JW's observations: (was Re: Stories)

Thanks to JW for innitiating this thread.
Rather than quoting the whole thing, I'll respond to a few of JW's
observations.
1) Does Ste have an errection?
I think that's the intended implication.
What I find amazing about this scene is the "tension" that exists between
Jamie and Ste. There is a LOT going on here. The caring Jamie is expressing
for Ste is incredible. Letting him know, "I dont' think you're ugly." Ste's
talking about "going out for sports" and "you're on your own when you're
swimm'n" -- he's being very vulnerable, showing this softer side of himself
to Jamie.
2) Why a knit cap?
I think steve's explination of this is a good one:
>because it's hip/modern, and
>people would not associate it as a gift (what they would do with a ring), so
>it is inconspicuous for the people around them
But I want to add an observation. I think Sandra KNOWS something is going
on between Jamie and Ste. I've been around for about a half a century now
and I've observed that parents can be very odd regarding what thay "know"
and don't "know" about their gay children.
I think Sandra is "playing" with the situation a bit when she gives the
money to Ste "for his bird." She may not have thought this all the way
though, consciously, but she's wanting to see what happens. Sandra is a
feisty charecter, not at all above playing a bit of a joke. Look what
happens in the next scene! Ste knocks at the door and Sandra says, "Nolean
busy tonight was she?" She's not the least bit surprised to see him there
holding a brown paper bag. Ste doesn't answer but grins this sheepish grin
and walks in. Now watch: She sticks her head out the door and looks both
ways to see who might have seen Ste come in. Now, why does she do that?
It's almost as if she is "conspiring" with them. Then she closes the door
and for the first and only time you see their flat number: 269. Now THERE'S
a giggle!
I think Sandra "knows" but doesn't "know." Like all the information is in
place (she has a son she feels needs her protection and who has a picture
of Lucille Ball pined above his bed for Chrise sake) but she hasn't quite
let it completely solidify in her consciousness. That's why the scene where
she challanges Jamie when he comes home from the Glucester is so important.
Yeah, she doesn't handle it all cuddles and woo but she FINALLY get's Jamie
to come out to her. That's what she wanted all along! "Jamie, just talk to
me, I'm you're mother!"
3) Mama Cass's music.
As a gay young man when this music was current, I was very aware of the
implications of these lyrics and interpreted them precisely this way. You
gotta go where you wanna go and do what you wanna do with whom ever you
wanna do it with.
3) Sandra and Leah dancing together.
Nah, I don't think this is a statement about their sexuality. Leah and
Sandra are showing their support for and acceptence of Jamie and Ste.
What's more, Sandra is doing what she's always done, protect Jamie. Look at
the expression on Sandra's face. She's practically DARING anyone watching
to make anything out of it. She's stareing people down with this 'Don't you
bloody even think about it!' look on her face.
I love this film!
Mike

.
>
>One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
>Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't know
>if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
>Knowing what I have been through and how much Jamie and Ste have agonized
>over their decision, I just don't think it's that easy to all of a sudden
>"jump on the band wagon" so to speak. What appears to be a spur of the
>moment decision on Sandra's part seems to trivialize what I know and what I
>am sure Jamie and Ste would know to be a long and involved decision. Jamie
>and Ste had to fight both with each other and with their peers for every
>feeling they share. What agonizing has Leah or Sandra done? I just don't
>think it's fair for Jamie and Ste to have to share the "spotlight" with
>Sandra and Leah both of whom have just up and kind of made a spur of the
>moment "feel good" decision. Your thoughts??
>
>I could go on and on. Probably too long already. I really appreciate David
>Moody and Andi Rossi creating the "Beautiful" website. I know that it must
>take up a lot of their time, but I look to the site often for solace with my
>"friends." The beauty of the "connected world." Keep up the good work guys.
>Thanks especially for compiling the guestbook. It's a "Beautiful Thing" to
>know that I am not alone.

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:29:50 -0600
From: Kyle
Subject: Re: Stories

At 01:17 PM 2/28/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Well, I know I'm going to have fun this weekend...
> The shipment from amazon.com books arrived today!
> So I've got both the stage play _and_ the screenplay to read. The
>screenplay has some great black and white photos from the film too.
> Well, time to go do some reading.. :)
>
>Gary
>
>
I received notice on Wednesday that my shipment is on its way as well--can
hardly wait!!!!
Kyle

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:55:47 -0800
From: Nathan
Subject: Re: Stories -Reply

It has been written...
>>That night after Ste brings Jamie that knit cap and they both look at the
>>"Gay Times," do they sleep together again?? Or is Ste's sleeping over
>>tied
>>to his beatings at the hands of Ronnie and/or Trevor? Small point >>really.
>>Just curious on your thoughts.
>I think they sleep together again.
I have a different opinion...the whole conversatiion begins with Ste saying
that it just doesn't feel right to "do it" in Jaime's room, what with Sandra
and Tony on the other side of the door, Ronnie and Trevor next door. How do
they solve this problem? They decide to go to the Gloucester. With Ste's
reluctance, I find it difficult to see them sleeping together that night.
>Yes this is amazing! It's almost if she knew that this movie will be made
>almost 20 (?) years after her death. Did you know that the cause of her
>death is the cause they tell in the movie? It's true she is really choked in
>a sandwich. She got a hardattack after she was choked. It's sad but >true.
This may, in fact, be more folk-legend than folk-fact. In an interview in
People magazine last June, Cass daughter Owen reports "Mama Cass did not die
choking on a sandwich, as reported. It just didn't happen."
Also, has anyone else noticed that when Jamie goes to the shop to get the
issue og Gay Times, on the far away shots there are three issues on the sehlf;
the close up then shows two; we back away to watch him contemplate stealing
itand there are three; the close up shows him taking one of two, leaving one
on the shelf, then we back away to watch him put it under his hirt, and there
are two remaining. Bad job on the part of the prop department.
Hope everyone is well. Cheers!
*nathan*

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 18:51:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Helen
Subject: Re: Stories

Just thought i'd reply to what JW wrote below. I think the dance between
Sandra and Leah is just a sort of reconciliation after the many problems the
two of them have had and a show of support for Jamie and Ste. One of the
first things I noticed in that scene (once I'd calmed down from the initial
joy of it)is the expression on Sandra's face. Just watch her. She seems to
be staring down the crowd, warning them not to mess with her boy. A friend
of mine compared her to a lioness defending her cub. So that's my take on it.
Shane
At 08:36 PM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:33 PM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
>Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't know
>if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
>Knowing what I have been through and how much Jamie and Ste have agonized
>over their decision, I just don't think it's that easy to all of a sudden
>"jump on the band wagon" so to speak. What appears to be a spur of the
>moment decision on Sandra's part seems to trivialize what I know and what I
>am sure Jamie and Ste would know to be a long and involved decision. Jamie
>and Ste had to fight both with each other and with their peers for every
>feeling they share. What agonizing has Leah or Sandra done? I just don't
>think it's fair for Jamie and Ste to have to share the "spotlight" with
>Sandra and Leah both of whom have just up and kind of made a spur of the
>moment "feel good" decision. Your thoughts??
>
>

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 09:06:38 -0600 (CST)
From: BRIAN
Subject: Re: Stories

> > One thing that I have a problem with is the apparent "ease" with which
> > Sandra and Leah end up slow dancing at the end of the movie. I don't know
> > if their dancing is to imply a "conversion" in sexual preference or not.
> > I just don't think it's fair for Jamie and Ste to have to share the "spotlight" with
> > Sandra and Leah both of whom have just up and kind of made a spur of the
> > moment "feel good" decision. Your thoughts??
>
> I don't think they were converted, it was merely like friends rallying
> around friends. They merely emphasised the fact that same sex couples
> were normal, that life is so different and here we have 2 couples
> dancing together, no matter what sexual preference or age etc. It is
> merely a theatrical device which I guess can be a bit lost on film, but
> it merely is the "fairytale" ending. I don't even think leah is
> lesbian, it's in her character's "shock" tactic personality that
> motivates her to dance in support. Thus her Mum and friends snubbing
> their nose snad being proud of the fact that they are dancing, it is the
> support thing again.

I have a similar take on what many have said. The expression on Sandra's
face shows that she is staring down the crowd--telling them physically
to keep away from her son. I think her expression also shows that she is
mighty uncomfortable doing what she's doing. For me, this scene tells me
that no matter how hard it is, no matter how uncomfortable it will be for
her, she will stand beside (both figuratively and literally :) her son.
I think Leah's character is a bit too focused on drama and being center
stage to only be there for moral support. That's part of the
reason she is, but I think that this, like most of the things we've seen
her do in the movie, is another attempt at 'rocking the boat.'
-Brian

**************************************************************

From: "Tony
Subject: Re: Your mail to beautiful-thing list.
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:35:20 -0000

On the 28/2/97 21:56, Xavier wrote:
> I'm Xavier, I'm 24 and I'm in Geneva for a year, but I live in Madrid
> (Spain), I liked your mail because I feel the same about the movie than
> you. I really enjoyed the movie, but not to the extent of seeing it 12
> times or so. I will probably buy it if I find it on video, but I can wait
> until this moment arrives :) And, of course, I've recommended the film to
> a lot of friends.
>
> I agree with you in the interpretations of the movie scenes, specially
> about the final one with the dancing. It's a fantasy, but one feels good
> seeing it, yes?
>
> Bye,
>
> Xavier.
Hi Xavier,
Glad to know i'm not the only one who feels this way about the film, which
is probably
the reason for not contributing earlier. You're right, I think 'feel good'
is the right term for the ending
of the movie, and I hope it's one of many 'feel good' gay movies to come.

Tony.

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:42:01 -0600
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Stories -Reply

Nathan wrote:
>
> It has been written...
> >>That night after Ste brings Jamie that knit cap and they both look at the
> >>"Gay Times," do they sleep together again?? Or is Ste's sleeping over
> >>tied
> >>to his beatings at the hands of Ronnie and/or Trevor? Small point >>really.
> >>Just curious on your thoughts.
>
> >I think they sleep together again.
> I have a different opinion...the whole conversatiion begins with Ste saying
> that it just doesn't feel right to "do it" in Jaime's room, what with Sandra
> and Tony on the other side of the door, Ronnie and Trevor next door. How do
> they solve this problem? They decide to go to the Gloucester. With Ste's
> reluctance, I find it difficult to see them sleeping together that night.
I suspect that's the case as well. In fact, I think it's the
"confrontation" toward the end of the film - involving Jamie, Sandra,
and Ste that probably makes Ste aware of just how much he _is_ in love
with Jamie (and that he _is_ definitely gay and not just escaping from a
brutal family life). I have little doubt that, after the film ends and
they do make their planned visit to the Gloucester, that they do sleep
together.
> Also, has anyone else noticed that when Jamie goes to the shop to get the
> issue og Gay Times, on the far away shots there are three issues on the sehlf;
> the close up then shows two; we back away to watch him contemplate stealing
> itand there are three; the close up shows him taking one of two, leaving one
> on the shelf, then we back away to watch him put it under his hirt, and there
> are two remaining. Bad job on the part of the prop department.
This gaffe was listed a couple of months ago on the Internet Movie
Database. Most films listed have a section for "goofs" and that was one
of the ones listed. It happens in the best of films. It's especially
funny if the scene involves someone smoking a cigarette. As the camera
cuts away and back to the person smoking, the cigarette often gets
longer and shorter in each shot. :)
Gary

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:56:03 -0800
From: Bruce
Subject: Actual date for release of video?


Howdy, fellow BT mailing list folks! Does anyone know the ACTUAL date
for the release of Beautiful Thing on video in the U.S.? I keep hearing
either March/April or April/May as possible release time frames but does
anyone have something a bit more specific? I'm getting tired of the
wait!!!! =^(

cheers,
Bruce

**************************************************************

From: "David
Subject: Fw: Actual date for release of video?
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:38:00 -0000

Bruce wrote...
Howdy, fellow BT mailing list folks! Does anyone know the ACTUAL date
for the release of Beautiful Thing on video in the U.S.? I keep hearing
either March/April or April/May as possible release time frames but does
anyone have something a bit more specific? I'm getting tired of the
wait!!!!
I'll ask my contact at SPC in New York and get back to you.
Davie.
You need web-design or CGI programming? Then call me!
Beautiful Thing web http://www.zzapps.demon.co.uk/beautiful-thing/
----------

**************************************************************

From: "David
Subject: Problems with the list?
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:38:21 -0000

Spurred on by private comments by Tory about lagged messages, I think I ought to explain how the thing operates.
The FTGate mail server lives on this PC, the one I use for my work. It handles our Intranet mail, acting as a gateway to the 'net. It's listserver functions are over and above the standard mail handling we need.
Until a week ago I had FTGate programmed to dial into the 'net and do a mail run every hour throughout the day and night. Then I got the phone bill. Although the evening and weekend calls are free, the daytime calls added up to £50 for just one month.
I decided that spending £50 on the convenience of checking/sending mail every hour was not justified, and so now FTGate only dials out at 6am, 7pm. and 11pm GMT. If I'm online at other times it will do a mail run then too.
So, if it feels like you're experiencing lag with the list, this is the reason.
Davie.
Beautiful Thing web http://www.zzapps.demon.co.uk/beautiful-thing/

**************************************************************

From: Ralf
Subject: AW: Stories
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 01:35:59 -0800

Hi Gary,
enjoy reading it! When I got the screenplay I had to force myself not to
read it "away" in just a couple of hours. Watching the movie so many
times it was another interesting and different experience to read the
story rather than seeing it. Since I have only the screenplay I would be
interested if the play is much differerent and if it's worth getting it.
Take care
Ralf

Munich, Germany

**************************************************************

Last Updated on 03/03/99

This page hosted by Get your own Free Home Page

Email Archive Page H