Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:40:19 -0700 (MST)

From: mesocyclone

Subject: Re: Did they or didn't they?: Interesting thread on new-sgroup

Right on Sandra!

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think they are too naive to

even know WHAT they're supposed to be doing, and again, they are probably

just enjoying the first experiences of touching each other. They

probably don't really see a need to go that far. Just touch and hold and

talk and comfort, and then pass out exhausted in a delirious contentedness.

So mark me down as another hopeless romantic.

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:13:48 -0400

From: Kevin

Subject: Re: Did they or didn't they?

> I've asked this question before -- to little avail. What do we (on the

> list) think love is? When do we know we are in love vs. in heat? How are

> love and sex related? Are they ONLY supposed to go together? Do they ONLY

> work independently? I'd be interested to hear what folks think about this.

>

_____________________

Ok, Mike - in answer to your question - I am doing Fiddler on the Roof

and there is a scene where Tevye sings to Golde "Do you LOVE me?" - and

she responds "For 25 years I've lived with him, fought with him, starved

with him - 25 years my bed is his - if that's not love, what is?"

And I contemplated that that's not what love is at face value - if it

were, love would be depressing (having to stay with you when you're poor

and fat and ugly and old - I'm pushing the point here) - but instead

WANTING to stay. In the marriage ceremony, a couple is asked if they

will stay together thru richness thru poorness in sickness and in health

(blah, blah, blah) - all opposite sides of the spectrum - "til death do

you part!" - I believe no one can honestly answer these questions in the

affirmative unless there is love behind it - I heard a song once that

goes -> "love is not a feeling it's an act of your will" - that's a

pretty strong statement - but I think it more readily describes love

than the "feeling" thing - I mean, God, feelings come and go (the guy I

would've sold my soul to be with last week, today I can't figure out

WHAT I saw in him...) - that's not love (and I think we ALL know that) -

on the other hand, wanting to love someone and be loved by someone is

all well and good - we can take it, but can we dish it out???

I don't know if we can ever really know what love IS - but that doesn't

stop us from trying to attain it (heck, why are there so many love songs

on the radio otherwise?)

Kevin

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From: Spank

Subject: Re: Tony's character?

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:46:36 +1000

> The film version of Tony struck me as a charming, delightful romantic

> kind of guy - he seems very nurturing and caring, he tries, but

> ultimately doesn't succeed in providing Sandra with the kind of balance

and

> tenderness I for one think she needs.

Please post back with alternative views, but I can't stop thinking that

Sandra's "dumping" of Tony at the end of the film was a bit of a pity.

Tony, for all his blow (marijuana) -induced light-headedness seems written

to be an okay kinda fella. He genuinely seems to care about and love his

adopted family (Sandra and Jamie) and appears to have a heart of gold.

There's not an ounce of bigot in him and he does TRY. Consequently, I can't

help but feel for him when Sandra suddenly dumps him at the end of the film

without ever explaining her reasons. Was it neccessary? What did it

achieve? What was Harvey trying to say? It just seemed a bit incongruous in

such a positive film.

Or perhaps Harvey was trying to say that some people (in this case Sandra)

at some times in their lives do not NEED to be in relationships; instead

they need to concentrate on other areas of their lives (running the pub)?

If so, I think that's a pretty valid point to make. Or do you think the

break-up is just a sobering counterbalance to all the idealisation of love

in the Jamie+Ste bits? After all, sometimes even the best of relationships

don't work out.

After years together will Jamie end up a victim of domestic violence,

perpetrated by the once-abused Ste?

What do others think?

While the film concentrates on idealising - and dare I say (positively)

propagandising - on the love between Jamie & Ste, I feel that positive

message is a tad compromised by Tony & Sandra's breakup.

However, I'd get over it pretty damn quickly if Jamie gave me a peppermint

foot lotion backrub.

Still, it's a fantastic film and I love it to death. Glen Berry and Scott

Neal are so totally believable in their roles. Their bravery in taking on

such roles is admirable and their ability to make the characters so

believable and lovable is a testament to their acting abilities. Here's

hoping they're around for many celluloid years to come.

What about a sequel, Johnathan?

Iain

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From: Niall

Subject: RE: Did they or didn't they?: Interesting thread on new-sgroup

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:39:19 +0100

I have been watching the posting on this with some interest.

Certainly, I would echo Mike's sentiments that it challenges my assumption

that they had sex of some form. I have started thinking about it in the

context of some of my own experiences.

I have worked as a volunteer with Cara-Friend, the local lesbigay

switchboard here in Belfast, for about 5 years. During that time I have

spoke to, formally befriended and otherwise met many young gay people

coming out for the first time, probably a lot more than people not involved

with a switchboard would ever have contact with.

I have seen a wide range of reactions to sex, from those who wanted it

straight away (sometimes with me, flattering, but against our rules), those

who were already having it, and those who wanted to wait.

One of the things I have to very aware of on the phone lines is language,

and what different people mean by it. I have seen this in the posts with

the word "sex". Michael  talks about them not having sex, but having

an orgasm together. For me, sex would include wanking with at least one

orgasm, but I believe others on this list mean anal intercourse when they

say sex.

It is very difficult to generalise about sex and 16 year olds. For me, I

would have loved the idea, but would probably have freaked at the reality.

My ex was having anal sex at age 10. A recent 17 year old I met was out to

his parents, claimed to be comfortable with being gay, but had decided not

to have sex until he was at least 18 and maybe older. Other of my

befriendees have got off with someone on their first night on the gay

scene, with the clear intention of having sex, often in my spare room.

Another young friend was great at the chatting up, getting them home, into

bed naked, and then would freeze, as he didn't know how to respond to the

intimacy. Thankfully, I have helped and cajoled him through that phase.

I did think that the week's delay was clear in the film, as per Davie's

message. It certainly took me a full week to pluck up the courage to get in

contact with my first, so I can understand.

Ultimately, we will probably never know exactly what happened that night.

Jonathan has left it deliberately vague, because the film is not about sex,

it is about discovery and feelings and love. My parents are coming to see

it next Friday, and I wouldn't have invited them to anything less.

love

Niall

Belfast

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From: Ralf

Subject: Austrian Television: "Stonewall" in TV tonight

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 05:13:14 -0700

For those who are able to receive Austrian Television ORF2 (in

Austria/South Germany via cable/terrestrial, elsewhere maybe via

sattelite):

"Stonewall" will be shown on ORF2 (23.35h and 2.30h) tonight.

More information and VPS info at http://www.orf.at/teletext/403.htm and

http://www.orf.at/teletext/404.htm

Happy recording...

Ralf

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From: Kane

Subject: I'm new! The "Did they/Didn't they" thing.

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:27:11 +1000

Hi everyone, my name's Kane. I'm a gay 18 year old in Australia who's

only just seen Beautiful Thing (finally). I actually loved it so much I

hired it out a second night - I missed it at the movies, unfortunately.

:-(

Anyway, I haven't really caught on with how this whole thing runs yet, but

I hope to figure it out soon - I love the idea of meeting people that are

interested in love more so than sex. Yes, I'm the romantic type too -

well, I try to be, but I guess I'm kinda shy. *blush* Hahaha...

Also, just my take on the "did they or didn't they" conversation you guys

seem to be having: I don't think they did. In fact, I'd be surprised if

they did. I think that it was just a bit of that innocent, childlike

experimentation and "touching" that 10-13 year olds go through only this

time involving a bit more love and affection. I really don't think that

two insecure guys like Jamie and Ste who've never really even kissed

anyone, "y'know - stuck the tongue in", are just gonna mount each other

quite that soon. Hehe. :-)

Oh, and by the way, I read something yesterday where a 29 year-old and a 30

year-old were depressed 'cuz of their ages. I really don't get this!

How is 29 and 30 anywhere near old?! Don't stress guys - you're still in

your prime! I can't wait to reach my late 20's/early 30's - that's a cool

time of life, I reckon!

..Kane

PS: If there's a Ste out there, please e-mail me - you're the guy I'm

looking for! *lol* :-)

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:19:47 -0400 (EDT)

From: Edward

Subject: Re: Why is J a "misfit"?

Hello all,

New here. Not sure if I'm even doing this right, but here goes:

Just saw the film a week ago. Bought the soundtrack yesterday. Needless

to say, I'm in love--although for some odd reason the film has

precipitated a mini-crisis in my life. I guess having to do with memories

of my coming out to my mother. In fact the most powerful scene for me is

when Sandra confronts her son.

BLA, BLA, BLA...My question:

Why do all his team/class-mates taunt Jamie so? Even Ste (if I remember

the first scene correctly) participates. Is he suspected of being queer?

My impression was that J himself didn't "really" know until later. How

can the others "know"?

ED

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:15:03 -0700 (MST)

From: mesocyclone

Subject: website suggestion....

Hey, if it's possible, is there a way that you could make an addition

to the sound clips part of the site? I think it'd be excellent if the

part where Louise is talking about how she's "gonna be dripping with money

one of these days" could be there. It's hilarious!

On another note, I had an idea the other day. Are any of you familiar

with the British sitcom "Absolutely Fabulous"? It's a great show. Well,

anyway, there is a DJ who has taken a couple of sound bits from that show

and turned them into two really great dance records. And I was thinking

it'd be really cool if a DJ or the like did that with BT. There are so

many great little lines in that movie that would fit. It could start out

with the part about Mrs. Chauhan yelling "Balls Mr. Bennett", and take off

into a great groovy tune, with Jaime talking about how 's a queer, a

bender, and all that, the pub guy with the line "the bird with the biggest

tits, Louise's part about what she'd do with the money, and of course the

lines from the lake scene would have to be included. And suddenly the

music would stop, Jaime would say "I'm happy when I'm with you" there'd be

a momentary pause, and then the music would take off again. And it could

end with Mrs. Chauhan saying "Less fucking and more attention please" or

something like that. If I had the know how, I'd do it, but I'm not a

DJ, so.....

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From: Niall

Subject: RE: Officially Sanctioned Homophobia: A Response

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:30:37 +0100

I was really saddened to read Andi's post this morning, and would reiterate

Dan's comment:

> And after

> awhile, I got to know these fine folks, and realized they were more like

> a family ... with good humored bantering and knock downs sometimes, but

> always there to support each other if needed. So I am real sorry that

> Andi found it abit unsettling. I only hope that he will give another

> try.

>

> Lifes to serious to treat it so!! Smile and enjoy it ... and "make your

> own kind of music" too!

Some of you may know me from uk-motss, and will have seen my posting there

about how I witnessed the shooting of Darren Bradshaw in the Parliament

(gay) bar in Belfast last month.

As I am well out in work, I gave my posting to a close colleague to

proof-read before I sent it. He would therefore have known how low I was

feeling that day, and just how vulnerable I was at that point. However,

just after lunch, he started a conversation about where the term "uphill

gardener" (another recent uk-motss thread, a reference to anal sex if you

don't know) came from. I felt I was being talked about, rather than with,

and walked out of work nearly in tears.

The next day, I made my feelings and anger clear. My colleague (who had

been off on leave) called round to my house that evening with a lovely card

to say "Sorry". He meant it, and normally I would not have been so

sensitive as to get upset in the first place, so I was very glad to accept

his apology. Our friendship continues untarnished, and he still takes the

piss out of me when I need / deserve it.

I just hope that Andi will accept the apologies and come to feel the same

way.

love

Niall

Belfast

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:05:56 -0500

From: Keith

Subject: RE: Did they or didn't they?: Interesting thread on new-sgroup

Niall,

Your one comment really struck me - BT is one gay-themed film I would

be proud to show my parents.

Thanks,

Keith

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 05:54:31 -0400

From: Eric

Subject: Test: Please ignor

Well, now, I DID say "Please Ignor!"

I'm new to the list and I tried to post a couple of times with no results,

so I'm checking to see if it's now working before I try to join in again!

At least I'm getting everyone else's posts, and love reading them.

Best,

"E" :-)

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From: Dennis

Subject: Re: Did they or did they not...

At 07:45 PM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I posted a brief msg about this on the newgroup but wanted to give more

>details. I think that they definitely did something but what it is, is up

>to the imagination. (Hello!!, they were both naked the next morning). It

>is further evident when confronted by Leah.. Do you not see the face on

>Ste?? That look that says, "I cannot believe that she knows and that they

>heard us"..

>

>Jim

>

>PS. If you were naked with Ste, what would you do?? <g> Thought

>that I would throw in some smut for thought!!!! LOL

20 June 1997

to everyone who wants to know ...

OF COURSE!! Of course they had some kind of sexual contact - they might have

just made out all night...When Ste said he's uncomfortable here (in Jamie's

room) with Sandra and Tony inthe next room, and his father and Trevor on the

other side, and that they could go to his Aunts house, but that doesn't feel

right either, it was about GETTING BUSY!! And Jim, thanks for the smut!

After reading todays postings, I have been one of the "lurkers" but I never

really wanted to respond to anything, until now. And as an observer, it

never occurred to me that any of you were homophobic.

Dennis

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:39:25 -0500 (CDT)

From: sean

Subject: Re: Why is J a "misfit"?

Well to use personal experience when I was in 8th grade (13yrs old)

everyone decided that I was gay and tormented me..at this time I did not

even know for sure. What I think it is is that children no matter where

they are are cruel..they see some who is different (in my case a little

weird and flighty) (in JAmie's case didn't want to particpate in sports,

football etc.) and they single them out and the worst thing to say to a

boy is to question their masculinity...it is a blow to the head especially

when you are a teenager. I think Jamie knew and Ste knew they were gay

but when you are in an environment which degrades, and treats gay people

with hostility you are afraid to tell anyone or act on those feelings. I

know I was and it was until a friend told me he was that I finally

realized that I was not alone and had someone to talk to. I knew all

along but forced it back to hide it from myself and everyone else for fear

of ridicule. I think this response is normal, because it is a difficult

time in a persons life not only dealing with puberty, but to have to deal

with a sexuality that may be different from everyone elses and to have

none to share those feelings with. If I hadn't had someone who

legitamized my feelings I would either still be in the closet or very

messed up right now. So I guess I say thank you to that man.

Sean

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Edward  wrote:

> Hello all,

> New here. Not sure if I'm even doing this right, but here goes:

> Just saw the film a week ago. Bought the soundtrack yesterday. Needless

> to say, I'm in love--although for some odd reason the film has

> precipitated a mini-crisis in my life. I guess having to do with memories

> of my coming out to my mother. In fact the most powerful scene for me is

> when Sandra confronts her son.

> BLA, BLA, BLA...My question:

> Why do all his team/class-mates taunt Jamie so? Even Ste (if I remember

> the first scene correctly) participates. Is he suspected of being queer?

> My impression was that J himself didn't "really" know until later. How

> can the others "know"?

>

> ED

>

>

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