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Email Archive Page 47

 

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:22:44 -0400
From: Kevin
Subject: Re: Q - What does Sandra mean?
Hal - I think it's just a tension breaker...it was a big saying years
ago "when I was a kid" (that's my name don't wear it out!) - I believe
PeeWee Herman first made it famous!? I don't think it was meant to be
anything profound. Just Sandra's way of reminding them who she is -
yeah, she bonds with both of them each in spending time together (Jamie
in his room when he "comes out" to her - and Ste later on the couch!) -
but she is still "the mother" - not their best friend. She has always
been a somewhat "biting" in her humor towards the boys, she's not gonna
stop now - in fact, if anything, maybe it is somewhat profound, b/c
she's saying, "so what, you're gay. You're still the same boys I acted
this way towards before. You haven't changed any, why should I?"
Comments?
Kevin
_____
Hal wrote:
>
> Hi all (of the suddenly silent list)
>
> I have wondered about this particular little question since the very first
> time I saw BT. It happens in scene 90 (what makes you think I have the
> script?), after Jamie told Ste that his mom knows. the dialogue goes
> something like this:
>
> SANDRA: Now wipe 'em properly
> (STE takes a few hankies and wipes his eyes. Blows his nose.
> JAMIE sits down in an armchair. STE is bewildered by the whole
> thing.)
> STE: Aw f*** me (actual word replaced to protext the innnocent ;) )
> SANDRA: Er, we'll have none of that here
> Right, I'm going to bed. Five minutes.
> STE: Right, Sandra. Night, Sandra, Cheers, Sandra.
> SANDRA: Yeah, that's me name, Ste, don't wear it out, eh?
>
> Now, I might be just a bit thick, but I don't understand that bit. In the
> movie, the way the camera focuses of them here sort of makes one think that
> it's got some important meaning. But I don't get it!!
> Does anyone have any ideas?
>
> Hal
 
--

**************************************************************

From: matthew
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:18:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
I think they make a nice couple and would probably stick together if
given half a chance by all the people around them. They have friendship
and love -- their connection has almost nothing to do with sex.
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:34:58 -0400
From: Eric
Subject: Re: Q - What does Sandra mean?
At 04:31 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-12 13:20:19 EDT, you write:
>
><< Right, I'm going to bed. Five minutes.
> STE: Right, Sandra. Night, Sandra, Cheers, Sandra.
> SANDRA: Yeah, that's me name, Ste, don't wear it out, eh?
>
> Now, I might be just a bit thick, but I don't understand that bit. In the
> movie, the way the camera focuses of them here sort of makes one think that
> it's got some important meaning. But I don't get it!!
> Does anyone have any ideas? >>
Well, the "five minutes" part means that Sandra expects them to talk for no
more than five minutes, then Jamie is to get to bed and Ste is to go home.
Sandra is still somewhat upset by Jamie's forced confession -- the whole
evening has been upsetting to her. Leah was a pain in the ass, and she just
had a fight with Tony as well (who also went off to help Leah and didn't
come back!).
Now, in this scene in the lounge with Ste and Jamie, Ste's sniveling about
his family "killing" him is *really* irritating her even more ("Shut up or
I'll kill ya."). So when Ste says "Right Sandra.... (etc) she comes back
with one of her quips that she is found of using (she uses lots of
different ones in the film, if you notice): "...that's me name..."
>
>Could Sandra be very protective of Jamie at this point? Earlier, in the
>bedroom, she seemed to feel that if Jamie had to be involved with someone,
>Ste wouldn't be the best person for him "since he hasn't seen life." I think
>Sandra cares for Ste deeply in a maternal way, but doesn't want Jamie hurt,
>and was concerned about what influence Ste would have on Jamie (perhaps
>emotional baggage from an abusive family spilling over?) At any rate, I for
>one think Ste would be, and is, good for Jamie!!
I agree that Sandra doesn't approve of Ste as a potential boyfriend for
Jamie, but then, she probably wouldn't approve of anyone at this point. I
think by the end, she is really beginning to accept the situation. She is
still not comfortable with it though. She likes Ste, no question, (she has
taken him in, and even given him money for his "girlfriend") so I think
she'll come to love him as another son before long!
Just my opinion!
-Eric
--

**************************************************************

From: Chris
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:16:11 +0000
Subject: Trouble with the mailing list.
Hiya Peeps,
Just to let you know there has been a little bit of trouble with
the mailing list. The machine it was one was down while I moved
house and in the move something decided to give up the ghost... so I
had to reinstall alot of software, including the software I was
running the mailing list on. I don't think I lost any mail (here's
hoping) but if I did please accept my appologies.
 
--
Chris
--

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From: matthew
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:17:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
My point is that they don't focus on sex. I really don't think they
"went all the way" that night in bed. First, I don't think they really
know yet what that means. Second, even if they do, I think they are too
scared. I think they probably kissed and hugged and got turned on.
That's it. But even if they did "go all they way," that's not what holds
them together. It is love and friendship that holds them.
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:45:55 +0200
From: jmcs
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
At 23:17 12/09/97 -0400, Kevin wrote:
>You know - in spite of the fact that everyone sees Ste as the practical
>type - it is rather amusing that he doesn't think before shouting at
>Jamie AFTER the party. "Get your hands off me!...Get your fucking queer
>hands off me!!" What was he thinking at that moment? Probably "Oh my
>God, what would everyone else think if they knew I slept with a guy -
>they'd think I was a queer! I've got to live up to the macho image that
>my dad, brother and all of society have been molding me into for the
>past 16 years and hope nobody else efigures it out." Ok, maybe I'm
>pushing the point here - but think about it...the comment is definitely
>a well thought out comment - though Jamie seems to bounce back pretty
>quickly - "figuring out" that Ste is actually in love with him or he
>wouldn't have been so mean! Yeah, right. I wasn't that bright at 16 -
>when someone was mean to me (especially saying things like that!) I
>really thought they hated me - even when I was in love with them - I
>didn't realize they were being mean b/c they loved me...I thought they
>were being mean b/c they really felt that way (no matter what beautiful
>moments we may have spent together.) - So my point is -> I don't know
>how serious a commitment Ste can make if he's alwayas gonna be worried
>about what other people think about him. Remember when Jamie asks him to
>dance at the end of the movie, he's still checking over his shoulder
>before he accepts Jamie's hand.
>I'm sorry if this sounds so morbid, but unfortunately, life is not
>always full of happy endings, and though I was glad it turned out happy
>- remember that this is an "urban FAIRYTALE" and after the "happily ever
>after", life does go on.
>Any comments???
>Kevin
 
Warning: Loooooooong post here!!
A lot to say and no words to say it!!!
About Ste´s uncalled for outburst: First of all, I must say I identify
myself with both of them, Jamie and Ste. The Jamie part of me: the shy,
introverted girl taunted and sometimes beaten at school with practically no
friends at all until 19. The Ste part of me: the reserved, afraid of
emotions girl, afraid of being hurt and (sometimes) too cerebral for my own
good. Very often I´ve said words I´ve immediately regretted but I was too
proud to say "I´m sorry". I´m working on that, and I´m 'proud' to say I´m
improving. Ste´s outburst, albeit cruel and mean, is perfectly
understandable, at least for me. Kevin is right, he was scared, he was
worried about his macho image and so on and so forth but we mustn´t forget
he was leaving with Jamie when Leah opens her big mouth. It was pretty clear
to me Ste had taken the decision to "come round tonight" at Jamie´s place.
It´s Leah´s words in front of everybody which makes Ste lose control and his
easier target is Jamie. "I love him but he´s a man, and because of him
everybody´s going to laugh at me and call me queer. I have enough problems
at home already with my father and brother. If they ever know about this,
I´m a dead man", so he loses his temper and insults him. I´m positive,
though, that he regretted his words the moment he uttered them, that´s why
he ran: he couldn´t face Jamie after such an unjustifiable attack. I can
understand him because I´ve done the same thing very often. I was being
insulted and my rage was increasing but I never spoke; I just hung on and
hung on and when I finally let out my wrath and I exploded, the most
guiltless person always carried the can. I´m not excusing Ste, what he did
was cruel and unforgivable, but understandable. He´s noble enough to
apologize later with a present. Incidentally, I loved it when he enters
Jamie´s room crestfallen, not daring to look into Jamie´s eyes, maybe even
expecting Jamie to throw him out, knowing Jamie had all the right to do so
if he wanted to. The way his face lights up when Jamie forgives him is
absolutely priceless. We know at that moment how much he has regretted his
words and how Jamie´s forgiveness is important to him. Everything is right
again for Ste. He doesn´t care about his peers´ opinion anymore, is Jamie´s
opinion of him the only thing that matters to Ste.
About how come Jamie knows Ste loves him after such words, beats me. I share
Kevin´s opinion. If anyone ever said such things to me I´d thought he didn´t
love me and I´d stay as much away from him as possible. And I´m 25 years
old!! The only explanation I can offer is that perhaps their night together
was so meaningful, Ste´s words and actions so heartfelt and sincere that
they convinced Jamie that no matter what happened, Ste´d love him always.
Besides, Jamie says to Sandra: "He´s in love, that´s all" after they´ve seen
Ste hurry back inside. The way Ste looks at Jamie and then leaves is a look
of shame. His eyes are full of shame (call me sentimental but sometimes I
even think he´s on the verge of tears). I´m sure had they been alone in the
terrace he would have apologized to Jamie right away, but Sandra´s presence
didn´t make it possible. If only for that look, Jamie knows *now* that Ste
loves him.
Finally, Ste´s looking over his shoulder before dancing. Again, I´m talking
about myself here. I always try to put myself in other people´s places
before speaking. If my boyfriend asked me to dance in the street I´m sure
I´d say: "Are you crazy?" I´m too shy to make such a scene in public. I´d go
as red as a lobster. Or maybe I´m in the mood and I feel reckless and I say:
"What the hell!! Why not?" Well, I´m not so sure about that, but everybody´s
entitled to let their hair down from time to time!! My point is that, in my
opinion of course, even if Jamie was a girl, Ste would have felt reluctant
to dance in public. He´s shy and has difficulties with showing his feelings
in public. But once lost in the dance and in the feeling of Jamie in his
arms, we can see his utter peace and contentment. He just closes his eyes
and flies. I remember that when I saw Ste embracing Jamie, his smile on
seeing that everybody accepts, the rightness of what they´re doing, I
couldn´t help but thinking that, finally, that was the real Ste. The real
person that was waiting to bloom and thanks to Jamie is a complete person
now. A whole human being.
 
I hope I made any sense to you. Just my thoughts.
Take care.
 
Sandra.
 
--

**************************************************************

From: "Kent ."
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:44:00 PDT
 
Hi Kevin and everybody!
>At 23:17 12/09/97 -0400, Kevin wrote:
>You know - in spite of the fact that everyone sees Ste as the practical
>type - it is rather amusing that he doesn't think before shouting at
>Jamie AFTER the party. "Get your hands off me!...Get your fucking queer
>hands off me!!" What was he thinking at that moment? Probably "Oh my
>God, what would everyone else think if they knew I slept with a guy -
>they'd think I was a queer! I've got to live up to the macho image that
>my dad, brother and all of society have been molding me into for the
>past 16 years and hope nobody else efigures it out." Ok, maybe I'm
>pushing the point here - but think about it...the comment is definitely
>a well thought out comment - though Jamie seems to bounce back pretty
>quickly - "figuring out" that Ste is actually in love with him or he
>wouldn't have been so mean! Yeah, right. I wasn't that bright at 16 -
Well, I'm *still* not that bright! :) I don't think Jamie would have
figured out Ste loves him *because* of what Ste said; rather it can
only be *despite* what Ste said, I feel. It amazed me that we didn't
see after that a scene of Jamie crying his heart out! I would have
felt totally crushed and betrayed! Even Jamie's later casualness and
belief that Ste is in love (with him), seems almost an act of Wishful
Thinking! It's not as if Jamie has any real reason for his belief--
except his belief in the power of love. That, and the fact that
*something* happened when they were in bed, something that made Jamie
fall in love with Ste. But even by the time of the party, Jamie isn't
sure his feelings will be reciprocated. (Maybe Ste's quiet response to
Jamie at the party, by not refusing outright another night together, is
all it takes to convince Jamie that Ste does love him. I know if you
want someone badly enough, it is easy to turn even the slightest sign of
them feeling the same way into the Certainty that they do-- because you
*want* them to.)
>when someone was mean to me (especially saying things like that!) I
>really thought they hated me - even when I was in love with them - I
>didn't realize they were being mean b/c they loved me...I thought they
>were being mean b/c they really felt that way (no matter what beautiful
>moments we may have spent together.)
Oh! I just don't think it is possible that this type of meanness stems
from *love*. Surely it can only stem from *fear*; from the exact
fear you describe Ste as having-- fear of being "outed" (or, perhaps,
fear of *having been* outed, as Leah has just done, and in a very public
setting).
>- So my point is -> I don't know
>how serious a commitment Ste can make if he's alwayas gonna be worried
>about what other people think about him. Remember when Jamie asks him
to
>dance at the end of the movie, he's still checking over his shoulder
>before he accepts Jamie's hand.
For me, the time when Ste does this is the precise moment when he
*overcomes* his fear. On the first couple viewings, I thought it
strange that after Jamie asked Ste to dance ("Anyone about?"), after Ste
looks around and says"Nah", they proceed into a plaza which is far from
empty. The Screenplay says Ste's response to Jamie's question-- Scene
102-- is
Ste (*nods to flat*): In there? (Jamie nods.) Nah.
But it seems to me when I watch BT that Ste is describing their
*surroundings* as not having anyone there-- he looks around them, not
just to the flat. Since there obviously are *lots* of "body's" there,
I then came to feel that Ste, in his taking of Jamie's hand, is
*knowingly* and *publicly* declaring his love for Jamie. He is "outing
himself". He accepts fully that he is gay (he just finished telling
the same thing to Leah) and doesn't care if the whole world knows it.
>I'm sorry if this sounds so morbid, but unfortunately, life is not
>always full of happy endings, and though I was glad it turned out happy
>- remember that this is an "urban FAIRYTALE" and after the "happily
ever
>after", life does go on.
>Any comments???
>Kevin
I felt the dichotomy between the stark realism of the majority of the
movie and the lyrical (magical, Absolutely Wonderful!) way it ended
helped fulfill the mandate of a Fairytale-- everything turning out all
right in the end. (I happen to believe that that is not bad, either;
Fairytales are not inherently inferior means of conveying Truth; but
that's another topic.) For the Fairytale to continue, the story of
Jamie and Ste would have to continue to be "happily ever after",
wouldn't it?
Just my 3 cents worth (Inflation, you know! :))
Kent
 
--

**************************************************************

From: matthew
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:56:25 -0400
Subject: An older version of Jamie
Last night I saw a sneak preview of IN & OUT. Kevin Klein does a
wonderful and touchingly amusing job playing a man who is just realizing
that he may be gay. His character reminds me a bit of Jamie even though
they are different ages. Coming out to one's self is a funny, sad,
painful, and joyful event in both films. If anyone else sees is, let us
know what you think please.
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:38:10 -0500
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: An older version of Jamie
matthew  wrote:
>
> Last night I saw a sneak preview of IN & OUT. Kevin Klein does a
> wonderful and touchingly amusing job playing a man who is just realizing
> that he may be gay. His character reminds me a bit of Jamie even though
> they are different ages. Coming out to one's self is a funny, sad,
> painful, and joyful event in both films. If anyone else sees is, let us
> know what you think please.
>
 
I saw In and Out last night as well. I thought it was amusing and well
made. But was much lighter than BT. They are obviously trying to
target the mainstream market. If only the mainstream market would see
BT, they would be pleasantly surprised!
Jeff
--

**************************************************************

From: Jeff
Subject: Other recommendations
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:46:14 -0500
I didn't see "In and Out" yet, but... I highly recommend "The Full Monty."
Again, British, like BT. It's hilarious. About fired steel workers in
Sheffield, Yorkshire, who decide to be strippers to earn money. It has a
surprise or two. Well worth seeing. And using English slang you learned
from BT will come in handy, as always.
Jeff
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff
Date: Sunday, September 14, 1997 2:27 p.m.
Subject: Re: An older version of Jamie
 
 
>matthew wrote:
>>
>> Last night I saw a sneak preview of IN & OUT. Kevin Klein does a
>> wonderful and touchingly amusing job playing a man who is just realizing
>> that he may be gay. His character reminds me a bit of Jamie even though
>> they are different ages. Coming out to one's self is a funny, sad,
>> painful, and joyful event in both films. If anyone else sees is, let us
>> know what you think please.
>>
>
>I saw In and Out last night as well. I thought it was amusing and well
>made. But was much lighter than BT. They are obviously trying to
>target the mainstream market. If only the mainstream market would see
>BT, they would be pleasantly surprised!
>
>Jeff Burris
>
>--
>Message sent by the Beautiful Thing Mailing List
>
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:26:12 -0800
From: painter
Subject: Re: Other recommendations
Hi Guys and Gals,
Yeah, I saw "The Full Monty" as well tonight and liked it. Has a lot to do
with the way men relate to one another and the way women perceive men (and
men perceive themselves). I liked the whole 'getting over the body image'
aspect of it.
Saw the trailer for "In and Out" and wasn't at all impressed by that. In
fact I wouldn't go see it based on the trailer but given other
recomendations I might change my mind.
Interesting being on the BT list again! How is everyone?!
Mike
> I didn't see "In and Out" yet, but... I highly recommend "The Full Monty."
>Again, British, like BT. It's hilarious. About fired steel workers in
>Sheffield, Yorkshire, who decide to be strippers to earn money. It has a
>surprise or two. Well worth seeing. And using English slang you learned
>from BT will come in handy, as always.
>
>Jeff
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jeff
>Date: Sunday, September 14, 1997 2:27 p.m.
>Subject: Re: An older version of Jamie
>
>
>
>>matthew  wrote:
>>>
>>> Last night I saw a sneak preview of IN & OUT. Kevin Klein does a
>>> wonderful and touchingly amusing job playing a man who is just realizing
>>> that he may be gay. His character reminds me a bit of Jamie even though
>>> they are different ages. Coming out to one's self is a funny, sad,
>>> painful, and joyful event in both films. If anyone else sees is, let us
>>> know what you think please.
>>>
>>
>>
>>I saw In and Out last night as well. I thought it was amusing and well
>>made. But was much lighter than BT. They are obviously trying to
>>target the mainstream market. If only the mainstream market would see
>>BT, they would be pleasantly surprised!
>>
>>Jeff
>
 
--

**************************************************************

From: Scott
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:46:17 +0100
----------
Warning: Loooooooong post here!!
A lot to say and no words to say it!!!
[lots and lots of fantastically insightful snipped]
I hope I made any sense to you. Just my thoughts.
----------
Wow, Sandra. What sense you made of the whole thing. Very impressive.
Let me just add another point: when Ste and Jamie are running through the
woods after their visit to the Gloucester, it is Ste who really initiates
the kiss. I know it's probably debatable, but after all the running and
everything, it is Ste who pulls Jamie towards him for the kiss.
So, in private, Ste is very happy with Jamie and very much in love.
Not much insight compared with yours, but my two penn'orth...
Scott
--

**************************************************************

From: Scott
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:18:06 +0100
> Well, I'm *still* not that bright! :) I don't think Jamie would have
> figured out Ste loves him *because* of what Ste said; rather it can
> only be *despite* what Ste said, I feel. It amazed me that we didn't
> see after that a scene of Jamie crying his heart out! I would have
> felt totally crushed and betrayed! Even Jamie's later casualness and
> belief that Ste is in love (with him), seems almost an act of Wishful
> Thinking!
I've always wondered what the effect would be if an actor playing Jamie
delivered the line in a more resentful manner - y'know, to make it obvious
to Sandra that Jamie and Ste had fallen out over something. It wouldn't
disrupt the flow of the plot too much, and could add extra poignancy to the
hat scene...
Scott
--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:29:57 +1000
From: Andrew
Subject: An interview with Jonathan (long)
The following is from an article published by Campaign Australia, September
issue 1996. For obvious reasons, please don't distribute this or publish it
on any web page. I provide this for the private reading of Beautiful Thing
Mailing List recipients only. If you have any comments to make about the
interview, please don't reply and "requote" the whole article, just
paraphrase a line or two. Thanks, happy reading...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two Boys In Love: It's A Beautiful Thing
'Beautiful Thing' is the latest gay flick out of the UK. Based on the stage
play of the same name, it's a daringly sweet little film that tells a
hopeful, positive tale of young love and emerging gay sexuality on a
council estate. Phillippe Cahill spoke to screenwriter and playwright,
Jonathan Harvey about this funny, touching and above all uplifting, first
film which is indeed a beautiful thing...
(CAHILL) How accurate a representation of the play is the film?
(HARVEY) "Hettie MacDonald directed the film and directed the play, so I
always knew that she would get the feel right. I mean, the play was quite
different in its setting. It was all set on the walkway outside the flats
and in the boys' bedroom. But with film you can take it to other places and
you can be more concise with the storytelling. You can tell it quicker and
get in closer to the faces so it's a bit more touching. Also with the play
we had older boys playing the leads because you're not as close and it was
easier to get older actors to make that journey for two hours every night.
But you can't get away with as much on film. So it's nice to have boys of
the proper age group playing the roles."
(CAHILL) The casting of the film struck me as very strong. Were you happy
with it?
(HARVEY) "I was absolutely delighted with Scott Neal and Glen Barry as the
two young lovers, Ste and Jamie. We spent a long time seeing lots of
youngsters for the parts, and both those boys had eight or nine auditions
before they were finally selected. But again that comes down to Hettie who
is very good with actors, poking them in the right places. You can see that
especially with the way she got kids of that age to deliver the goods. But
it's the same with the supporting cast as well. I'm absolutely thrilled
with all their work. We obviously made the right decisions."
(CAHILL) You had two plays in the West End, and then you made this film.
Was it difficult transferring from stage to screenwriting?
(HARVEY) "It was exciting, like being let loose in a toy shop. Because I
had the characters and I had the story set out, so I knew exactly what had
to happen. It was just a matter of finding the best way for it to happen
within the medium. The biggest lesson I learnt was as a playwright, I'm
obsessed with dialogue. I was amazed at how little dialogueyou need in a
film. On film, you can get up close and see the actors' faces, so you don't
need as much of the chaff, really. But it was difficult, you know. It took
me two years and seven script drafts to get it right."
(CAHILL) I really liked the fact that you didn't try to gloss over the
limitations of living on a council housing estate, but you also didn't
dwell on it as a totally colourless, humourless, bleak existence. That's
become such a cliché.
(HARVEY) "I think it would have been easy to go down that stereotypical
road, and make the insides of all the flats quite drab. Or maybe make
Sandra's flat look tacky. But the play's sense of fun on stage had to be
translated to the screen. You have to believe in these characters'
survival. And Sandra is a feisty character who has a good job, so she would
have enough money to have some nice clothes and to do up her flat nicely."
(CAHILL) That approach does actually give this film a great sense of hope.
You really believe that these people can survive relative social poverty,
and perhaps even resolve the perceived conflict of being both working class
and gay.
(HARVEY) "Well, that was indeed my goal, to have a hopeful, happy ending
story about being gay and being working class and coming out. Because I
haven't really seen that done anywhere myself, and yet that's what seemed
to happen in my life and in the lives of other people I know. Yes, there is
drama and there is sadness. But any heterosexual teenager can turn on the
television and watch the gorgeous guy taking the gorgeous girl to the prom.
I felt that just as in Beverley Hills 90210, there should be an element in
Beautiful Thing of it all working out nicely, so that we were giving hope
to gay teenagers."
(CAHILL) I suppose the thing with film, and even plays to a degree, is we
only ever tend to see people struggling with being gay. Characters are
either tortured by it, and/or are tortured by others about it. The minute
that dilemma is resolved is usually when the story ends.
(HARVEY) "Yes...(laughs). And I don't necessarily think it is like that.
For me being gay, I don't know where it comes from and I don't really care,
it's just who I am. It's me. I never sort of had the internalised
homophobia of feeling I was weird or strange. I was aware that society
thought I was, but for me being gay was just natural. And with the two boys
in the film, they're straight, so that became the main thing that I had to
get across to them in the rehearsal period. You know, that this film
wouldn't have been made if it was about a boy and a girl because that's no
big deal. Society says that's okay. It's being made because it's about two
lads, but you mustn't approach it with any sort of idea that it's out of
the ordinary. Just play it as it is, say the lines, and remember it all
seems perfectly natural to these two lads. Or at least that's what I wanted
to show, and if that makes me a rose-tinted optimist who's very romantic, I
don't really care. Because I think there's a place for it, especially at
the moment."
(CAHILL) How did two young straight lads cope with the responsibility and
pressure of carrying such roles?
(HARVEY) "I think the boys are marvellous in it. They were anxious doing
it, but they really wanted to do it because they're serious about their
acting, and well you just don't turn down the opportunity to be in a major
British film."
(CAHILL) Of course, the film doesn't just work on the strength of the boys'
performances. It's very much a superb ensemble cast. Particularly the
young, vital fresh-faced Tameka Empson, who plays the troubled,
smart-mouthed girl next door. She's a real standout.
(HARVEY) "She is a lot of fun. She's the best cure for a hangover that I know."
(CAHILL) The film also has a wonderful soundtrack of songs by Mana Cass
that really work well as both background music and thematic emphasis.
(HARVEY) "Yes, definitely. I was originally aware of Mama Cass because my
mum used to say that I ate too fast, and if I wasn't careful I'd end up
choking to death like she did. So I knew about this gargantuan singer, also
because one of my aunties was really into her. But I didn't really get into
her myself until I was writing the play. I saw a tape of her in a record
shop and bought it to play in the background while I was writing. But then
I started listening more and more to the lyrics and realised that what she
was singing was about being empowered, being optimistic, being different
and that it was alright! It was fabulous. Making Tameka's character
obsessed with her was really just an excuse for using the music in the
play. Although we almost couldn't use it in the film because it was very,
very expensive to get hold of the rights."
(CAHILL) How is it that the English seem to be so comparatively permissive
and progressive about the cultural representation of homosexuality on stage
and screen, when the country itself is so politically conservative about
the very same issues?
(HARVEY) "I think it is a reation to what is going on around us. Certainly
for me, part of the reason for writing this play was a sense of outrage at
the UK's unequal age of consent laws. That has since been lowered to 18,
but it still should be 16 in line with heterosexuals. So I guess if that's
what inspired me to write what turns out to be a sweet, little, optimistic,
boy meets boy kind of film with a few jokes in it, then obviously the more
progressive stuff comes out of a similar sense of anger as well. And I
think that just comes out of living day to day in a society which
discriminates."
(CAHILL) Do you have problems with being labelled as a gay
playwright/screenwriter? Many artists seem to take issue with the terms gay
and lesbian as being limiting, although personally I think such arguments
are a cop out...
(HARVEY) "It doesn't cross my mind really. I'm gay and I'm a writer, so I'm
a gay writer, you know. I know they don't say heterosexual writer, but I
don't really care what they call me in regards to that. I mean, to me when
people start saying they're worried about being pigeonholed as gay, it just
sounds a bit too much like internalised homophobia".
Campaign Australia, September 1996
 
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:42:00 -0400
From: ep
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
My two cents:
I always thought that Ste gave it away to Jamie at the party (that he did
indeed love him). Out on the patio, Jamie asks Ste to "come 'round
tonight." Ste doesn't answer - can't answer - but Jamie wants a answer. Ste
can only come up with, "let's get a drink." From that moment, Jamie knows
that Ste has feelings for him too. And a little later, look at Ste's look
to Jamie when Claire puts "the make" on Ste. It's a shared smile. And, in
fact, they ARE going home together, till Leah butts in. When Ste gets up to
go, it is HE who asks Jamie to come along with HIM.
While Jamie is hurt that Ste has a bad reaction to what Leah says ("Get
your fucking queer hands off me!"), he is not fooled as to the reason Ste
says it. It's not because Ste doesn't love him, but his fear of sharing
that info with everyone. But because Ste is extremely uncomfortable with
his feelings, doesn't change the fact that those feelings exist, and Jamie
knows it and seems to understand it.
-Eric
 
 
At 01:18 PM 9/15/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> Well, I'm *still* not that bright! :) I don't think Jamie would have
>> figured out Ste loves him *because* of what Ste said; rather it can
>> only be *despite* what Ste said, I feel. It amazed me that we didn't
>> see after that a scene of Jamie crying his heart out! I would have
>> felt totally crushed and betrayed! Even Jamie's later casualness and
>> belief that Ste is in love (with him), seems almost an act of Wishful
>> Thinking!
>
 
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:22:59 -0500
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Scott  wrote:
>
> > Well, I'm *still* not that bright! :) I don't think Jamie would have
> > figured out Ste loves him *because* of what Ste said; rather it can
> > only be *despite* what Ste said, I feel. It amazed me that we didn't
> > see after that a scene of Jamie crying his heart out! I would have
> > felt totally crushed and betrayed! Even Jamie's later casualness and
> > belief that Ste is in love (with him), seems almost an act of Wishful
> > Thinking!
>
> I've always wondered what the effect would be if an actor playing Jamie
> delivered the line in a more resentful manner - y'know, to make it obvious
> to Sandra that Jamie and Ste had fallen out over something. It wouldn't
> disrupt the flow of the plot too much, and could add extra poignancy to the
> hat scene...
>
> Scott
I see it this way. Ste had his outburst against Jamie and then ran off.
We don't know what Jamie did next, but I suspect this possible scenario.
First, of course he was hurt and he likely did have something of a good
cry back in his room. (Remember that he doesn't see Ste until the next
night.)
But Jamie has been the planner and to some degree schemer all along. It
was Jamie who has thought most about his sexuality. It was Jamie who
bought the Gay Times and was reading it intently before the party. It
was Jamie who had already spotted the Gloucester ad and made note of how
to get there.
It possibly occurred to Jamie through his tears that Ste's anger _did_
reflect how strongly he felt for Jamie. After all, if Jamie were of no
interest to him, how do you explain his remarks and actions by the pool
at the party or initially when confronted by Leah?
The old song, "You always hurt the one you love" may apply here. We
rarely say truly hateful things about people we don't give a hang about.
We just dismiss them and their existence.
Remember also that Ste's crowd - the gang he was always accepted in
(and Jamie wasn't accepted in) - would be likely to say things that Ste
did. Ste is embarrassed, upset, fearful of his reputation and he
unthinkingly says something the way his mates would say it. I suspect
he is thinking about those very words in that next scene where he
declines the girls' invite.
When he ducks inside from hanging the laundry to avoid seeing Jamie, I
suspect he suspects Jamie is angry with him. When he learns from Sandra
what Jamie actually said, he sees the opportunity to make things up to
Jamie - thus the gift of the hat.
Just a bit of theorizing, of course. :)
Gary
--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:45:35 -0800
From: painter
Subject: Re: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Yo, dudes et.al.,
I think it's great the way we talk about Ste, Jamie and all the other
characaters as if they are real people; trying to figure out their motives.
I hope someone is archiving all this stuff to show Jonathan!
Jamie is an exceptional young man. I think that's part of his charm as a
character. He shows us what we 'can' be. I was a lot like Jamie at his age,
but certainly not as together -- in large part, I think, because I didn't
have a mum like Sandra. Sandra and Jamie make an incredible team and Sandra
is right, Jamie is like her in lots of ways (strong willed, independent,
etc.). So had my 'Ste' said what Ste said to Jamie, I would have felt
crushed! But Jamie is a bit further along in the 'accepting who I am'
category than I was at his age (and considerably further along than Ste).
Consequently he was able to see Ste's over-reaction for what it was --
Ste's fear talking. It could be a lesson to us all. We have to remember to
listen not so much to the words (especially words spoken in anger or rage)
but with our hearts -- to the feelings behind the words. Its the old, 'you
are not the target' addage. When someone over-reacts with an outburst like
that, the statements have more to do with the *speaker* than the person
spoken to.
Mike
 
>My two cents:
>
>I always thought that Ste gave it away to Jamie at the party (that he did
>indeed love him). Out on the patio, Jamie asks Ste to "come 'round
>tonight." Ste doesn't answer - can't answer - but Jamie wants a answer. Ste
>can only come up with, "let's get a drink." From that moment, Jamie knows
>that Ste has feelings for him too. And a little later, look at Ste's look
>to Jamie when Claire puts "the make" on Ste. It's a shared smile. And, in
>fact, they ARE going home together, till Leah butts in. When Ste gets up to
>go, it is HE who asks Jamie to come along with HIM.
>
>While Jamie is hurt that Ste has a bad reaction to what Leah says ("Get
>your fucking queer hands off me!"), he is not fooled as to the reason Ste
>says it. It's not because Ste doesn't love him, but his fear of sharing
>that info with everyone. But because Ste is extremely uncomfortable with
>his feelings, doesn't change the fact that those feelings exist, and Jamie
>knows it and seems to understand it.
>
>-Eric
>
>
>
>At 01:18 PM 9/15/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>> Well, I'm *still* not that bright! :) I don't think Jamie would have
>>> figured out Ste loves him *because* of what Ste said; rather it can
>>> only be *despite* what Ste said, I feel. It amazed me that we didn't
>>> see after that a scene of Jamie crying his heart out! I would have
>>> felt totally crushed and betrayed! Even Jamie's later casualness and
>>> belief that Ste is in love (with him), seems almost an act of Wishful
>>> Thinking!
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Message sent by the Beautiful Thing Mailing List
 
Mike
 
--

**************************************************************

From: matthew
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:51:48 -0400
Subject: Re: ASCII stuff
I have no idea what this is.
--

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:57:53 -0800
From: painter
Subject: Off Topic: Queer e-mail lists
Hi Everyone,
There are a lot of interesting E-mail lists running off of QuuerNet.ORG.
The following is a list of them with brief descriptions. If you'd like to
find out more information about any one of them, send email to
majordomo@queernet.org with the command lines:
info <list name>
end
in the BODY of the email message.
 
<--------------------------------
Majordomo@QueerNet.ORG serves the following lists:
aaih Amazon Alternatives in Healing - sexual abuse support
aaih-digest Digest format of "aaih"
aces Amazon Community of Emotional Support
aces-digest Digest format of "aces"
align Newsletter of the GLB Ally Program at Carleton U.
apanet Subjects of concern to queer Asian-Pacific-Americans
aplb Asian Pacific Islander lesbian/bisexual women
aplb-digest Digest format of "aplb"
avengers A worldwide networking tool of the Lesbian Avengers
avengers-digest Digest format of "avengers"
ba-cyberdykes SF Bay Area lesbian/bi chat for self-identified dykes
ba-filmdykes Bay Area dyke film/video makers, critics, students
ba-filmdykes-digest Digest format of "ba-filmdykes"
ba-sappho Info and networking for bay area dykes.
bears-digest News and discussion for "bears" and their admirers
boychicks Butch identity and gender discussion for queer women
boychicks-digest Digest format of "boychicks"
butch-femme Butch-femme women's relationships and issues
caregivers Support for caregivers of people with AIDS/HIV
caregivers-digest Digest format of "caregivers"
cdcsumms Centers for Disease Control daily AIDS summary
chorus Gay & Lesbian Chorus Mailing List
chorus-digest Digest format of "chorus"
chub-digest News and discussion for fat/big/heavy men and
admirers
crockdykes Betty Crockdykes Cooking Circle recipe exchange
for dyke
cs Cigar Studs members & Hot Ash news
deaf-queer-digest News and discussion for deaf g/l/b/t folks
discover Coming out to oneself and within our communities
discover-digest Digest format of "discover"
dq-announce Digital Queers announcements
dqsf-announce Digital Queers/SF announcement list
dqsf-members Digital Queers/SF members-only discussion list
ebay-dykes Discussion and networking for east-SF-bay dykes
ebay-dykes-digest Digest format of "ebay-dykes"
esteem Gay and Bi Men's Self-esteem Project
euro-queer European Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/etc. news and
discussion
euro-queer-digest Digest format of "euro-queer"
euro-queer-studies European queer studies researchers and students
faerie Radical Faeries mailing list
faerie-digest Digest format of "faerie"
femmedykes Femme identity, femme support for queer women 18+
femmedykes-digest Digest format of "femmedykes"
filmdykes Dyke film/video makers, critics, students
filmdykes-digest Digest format of "filmdykes"
fl-motss Florida g/l/b/t news, discussion, etc.
gala_choruses Gay & Lesbian Association of Choruses
gapimny Info bulletin board for members of Gapimny
gapimny-digest Digest format of "gapimny"
gayaagroup Gay AA discussion/support list
gayaagroup-digest Digest format of "gayaagroup"
gayalanon Alanon members who are gay/lesbian
gayalanon-digest Digest format of "gayalanon"
gaybareback Condom-free sex as a fetish
gaybareback-digest Digest format of "gaybareback"
gaynet Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/etc. news and discussion
gaynet-digest Digest format of "gaynet"
gaynet-post Readers of bit.listserv.gaynet authorized to post
gl-asb Discussion of same-sex bondage and S&M interactions
gl-asb-digest Digest format of "gl-asb"
gl-doms Discussion for g/l Masters/Mistresses and other
Dominant
gl-doms-digest Digest format of "gl-doms"
gl-subs Discussion among g/l slaves and other submissives
gl-subs-digest Digest format of "gl-subs"
glb-penpals Gay/lesian/bi pen-pal mailing list
glbso GLB Student Organizations
glbso-digest Digest format of "glbso"
glbt-workplace Gays and lesbians in the workplace
glbt-workplace-digest Digest format of "glbt-workplace"
gspot Genetic Supportive Partners Of Transfolk (Dykes only)
gspot-digest Digest format of "gspot"
gws Gay "water sports"
gws-digest Digest version of "gws"
handball Gay/bi men's handball (fisting) discussion
handball-digest Digest format of "handball"
hotts Husbands Out To Their Spouses
hotts-digest Digest format of "hotts"
iaglcwdc Intl Assoc of Gay/Lesbian Country Western Dance Clubs
iaglcwdc-digest Digest format of "iaglcwdc"
iaglcwdc-news IAGLCWDC (news only)
kenslist l/g/b political/academic info forwarded by Ken
Sherrill
legal-list News and discussion for Law Enforcement Gays And
Lesbian
lesac-net Networking for lesbians in academia (women only)
lesbian-news Lesbian news, events and announcements
lesbian-writers Lesbian writers' discussion
lo Announcements and info for Leather Online! net-zine
long-distance-dykes Dykes in long distance relationships
long-distance-dykes-digest Digest format of "long-distance-dykes"
moms Lesbian moms, co-moms and mommy wanna-bes
moms-at-home Discussion and support for lesbian stay at home moms.
moms-at-home-digest Digest format of "moms-at-home"
moms-digest Digest format of "moms"
moms-post
oamazons Dykes in recovery from overeating
oamazons-digest Digest format of "oamazons"
oamazons-post
other-countries G/L/B People of Color creative writing critique
other-countries-digest Digest format of "other-countries"
outvoice Gay/lesbian-related music news and discussion
outvoice-digest Digest format of "outvoice"
outvoice-newsletter Gay/lesbian-related music news and information
owls Discussion/support for lesbians 40 and older
owls-digest Digest format of "owls"
owls-post
poly-dykes Women-only discussion of alternate forms of
relationship
poly-dykes-digest Digest format of "poly-dykes"
pqp Prospective Queer Parents: queer childraising
pqp-digest Digest format of "pqp"
primitives Modern Primitives (piercing, tattooing, ritual,
shamanis
primitives-digest Digest format of "primitives"
queerarabs Gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered Arabs or
Middle-Easte
queercomix Comix (books, strips, cartooning) and queer life
queercomix-digest Digest format of "queercomix"
rad-q-art Radical Queer art and artists
rainbowraven Newsletter of the GLB Centre at Carleton University
rethink Discussion of need to rethink AIDS research and
treatmen
rethink-digest Digest format of "rethink"
rubifruit Bi-positive/bi-friendly women (women only)
rubifruit-digest Digest format of "rubifruit"
sc-orlando Southern Country Gay/Lesbian Country Dance in Orlando
sfdykemarch-announce SF Dyke March announcements
sistanet A list for women-loving-women of African descent
sistanet-digest A list for women-loving-women of African descent
sm-colors LGBT people of color interested in S/M & B/D
sm-colors-digest Digest format of "sm-colors"
socosofo Southern Country Gay/Lesbian Country Dance Org.
in S. FL
somethingelse Butches, FTMs: identity, passing, transitioning, etc.
stonebutch Stone butches and the femmes who love them
travel-dykes Travel discussion for dykes
travel-dykes-digest Digest format of "travel-dykes"
treatments Discussion of experiences with AIDS/HIV treatment
treatments-digest Digest format of "treatments"
w2w-couples Woman-woman couples (women only)
w2w-couples-digest Digest format of "w2w-couples"
Use the 'info <list>' command to get more information
about a specific list.
------------------------------------->
Mike
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:54:51 -0700
From: Andrew
Subject: A few thoughts
 
First, kudos to Andrew  for the ASCII art.. It looked pretty good
for ascii art..
As for Jaime and Ste, I wonder if we are reading way too much into the
inbetween scenes. Between the fight and the apology, we do see Jaime but
we only see him in a happy mood. Jaime has figured out that Ste loves him.
As for Ste, I don't think he fully realized himself that he was in love
with Jaime until Sandra asked him. When Ste is on the bridge and he turns
down the girls, he obviously feels guilty what he said to Jaime but does
not know what to do about it. When he sees Ste later on the patio, I don't
think he was ready to apologize to Jaime because he thinks Jaime hates him
for it. When he sees Jaime, he does not even seem to notice Sandra -- he
takes one look at Jaime and flees. It is not until Sandra asks about his
new love that he realizes it is full blown love he feels for Jaime and that
if Jaime says Ste is in love, then obviously Jaime will forgive him.
As for faithfulness, I think Jaime is very much in love with Ste from the
moment they first "touch". I don't think Jaime will fall out of love with
Ste, but rather remain faithful to him since he initiates the relationship
and he would probably not want to relinquish what he has. As for Ste, who
is Ste going to leave Jaime for? He doesn't like the people at the
Gloucestor, and the town isn' that big. Ste doesn't make big changes to
his life very easily, so I'd say Ste would stick with Jaime because there
will be no reason to leave him. In short, as long as they stay in
Thamesmead, I think the two will remain with each other for a very long time.
As for Fairytales, well of course, that's what this is. Fiction is quite a
superior medium for Truth than facts. Why? People listen to fiction, but
tune out the real world the media presents. Fiction allows authors to
reflect aspects of life that people would otherwise ignore in the real
world because they don't feel it relates to them. This is why books like
Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Of Mice and Men, and Lord of the
Flies (just to name a few) will always be more powerful than a plain
history book.. People relate to fiction.. They can feel for Simon when he
figures out the truth and is killed by people who won't listen; they can
feel frustrated with Scout when the verdict is guilty when the is obviously
innocent; they can feel George's pain when he had to kill his best friend..
in the same way, Beautiful Thing powerfully portrays the reality of dealing
with a forbidden love where the media and historical accounts of
homosexuality just do not cut it.
Ah.. my two cents worth.
Till the next.
-= Andy =-
--

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:21:19 -0500
From: Joe
Subject: Re: A few thoughts
Andrew  wrote:
> As for Jaime and Ste, I wonder if we are reading way too much into the
> inbetween scenes. Between the fight and the apology, we do see Jaime but
> we only see him in a happy mood. Jaime has figured out that Ste loves him.
> As for Ste, I don't think he fully realized himself that he was in love
> with Jaime until Sandra asked him. When Ste is on the bridge and he turns
> down the girls, he obviously feels guilty what he said to Jaime but does
> not know what to do about it. When he sees Ste later on the patio, I don't
> think he was ready to apologize to Jaime because he thinks Jaime hates him
> for it. When he sees Jaime, he does not even seem to notice Sandra -- he
> takes one look at Jaime and flees. It is not until Sandra asks about his
> new love that he realizes it is full blown love he feels for Jaime and that
> if Jaime says Ste is in love, then obviously Jaime will forgive him.
>
Until I bought the BT video last May, I had only seen BT once - in a
theater over Christmas break. But I had downloaded two video clips from
the Sony site and I watched them over and over. One of the clips is the
scene with Ste and Sandra about what Jamie has said about Ste being in
love.
Ste's absolute shock during the whole scene and his expression after
Sandra and Tony leave him holding the money from Sandra supports, I
think, a lot of what Andy is saying. Consider what Ste does next: he
not only buys Jamie a gift with the money, but he skips the whole day of
school. In other words, he goes completely off by himself before
finally, late at night, coming to visit Jamie.
Jamie, in the meantime, has already worked out a plan for the trip to
the Gloucester.
 
> in the same way, Beautiful Thing powerfully portrays the reality of dealing
> with a forbidden love where the media and historical accounts of
> homosexuality just do not cut it.
>
I didn't come out until I was 24 and I led a rather straight life until
then, dating in high school (had great dates for both the junior prom
and the senior ball) and since I was in a fraternity in college, there
was no problem getting dates for house parties.
What amazes me about a story like BT is just how close things parallel
a straight romantic relationship: the first pangs of attraction, the
subtle maneuvering to get closer to the person, all the intrigue that
two people go through who can't just come out and express their love for
each other, partly because they are not certain how the relationship
will go.
That's why I think BT can be so powerful for straight audiences,
because it shows that we gay guys go through all the same things
straights go through with the added problem that society doesn't approve
of such relationships. I have straight (and supportive) friends who were
very surprised that gay guys actually "date," and don't just have sex
partners. that gay guys go through the same wondering, day dreaming, and
uncertainty that straights go through.
Gary
--

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:38:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: DC
Subject: Re: A few thoughts
In a message dated 97-09-17 06:53:48 EDT, Andy writes:
<< Ste doesn't like the people at the
Gloucestor, and the town isn' that big. >>
 
Well, actually, I think London is a fairly big town! But as for the
Gloucestor, I've wondered about that comment. Having lived through
angst-ridden adolescence myself, I saw Ste's comment about hating the
Gloucester as immature petulance - undersandable though it may be. He's in a
frightened spot in that scene, worried about his family and about ever being
happy, and he just found out that Jamie is moving away. Imagine the
emotional roller coaster he was on in the last 8 hours or so. It would be
very easy for him to dismiss any suggestion out of hand.
Also, in the final scenes, Ste seems quite comfortable with himself and with
going to the Gloucester. I suspect he did enjoy himself, and would enjoy
himself more, the more he feels in control of his own life.
My 2 cents in respone to Andy.
Dirk
--

**************************************************************

From: Scott
Subject: Re: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:44:01 +0100
> Jamie is an exceptional young man. I think that's part of his charm as a
> character. He shows us what we 'can' be. I was a lot like Jamie at his
age,
> but certainly not as together -- in large part, I think, because I didn't
> have a mum like Sandra. Sandra and Jamie make an incredible team and
Sandra
> is right, Jamie is like her in lots of ways (strong willed, independent,
> etc.)
But at the end of the film, they come to differing conclusions: Jamie has
found someone who really cares for him and, in his own words, is "good to
me". So has Sandra, in Tony. But whereas Jamie embrace the love that comes
his way, Sandra is perhaps frightened of it - at least that's my
interpretation of it. It certainly adds to the proud look she has when
dancing at the end...
Scott
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:26:02 -0500
From: Keith
Subject: Re: A few thoughts -Reply
Gary,
What you said about gay people going through the same rituals of dating
is so true, but you are right, so many people find that surprising. To be
honest, it was even hard for me to know that is what I wanted. There
are so many negative images about homosexuality out there, and since it
isn't a topic a person coming to grips with their sexuality can
usually discuss with others, we (or me at least) tended to start to think
like the negative images, meaning I saw myself in sexual situations (for
better or worse) but not in a romantic relationship with another guy. It
took BT to really drive the point home that yes, I could see myself in a
loving, caring relationship with another guy, and be very happy in it.
I only wish I could have come to this conclusion 10 years ago.
Keith
(P.S. I also cast my vote for " The Full Monty" - it is a really funny movie!)
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:41:42 -0500
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited -Reply
 
 
>>> Scott  09/17/97 02:44pm
>>>
>. So has Sandra, in Tony. But whereas Jamie embrace the love that
>comes
>his way, Sandra is perhaps frightened of it - at least that's my
>interpretation of it. It certainly adds to the proud look she has when
>dancing at the end...
I've always wondered why Sandra does dump Tony in the end. I don't
think its because she's frightened, though. I think she may be readjusting
her priorities in life, and trying to make a clean break of her current
situation. She can't wait to get out of Thamesmeade, and start over in
her new bar. I think she may also realize that Tony is not, and never will
be going anywhere in life, and she just can't have that in her life at this
time. She indicates that she is a fighter, and is obviously not content to
just drift through life. I think Tony may just have been a temporary
diversion while she was stuck in Thamesmeade.
Sandra shows she cares very strongly about the people around her.
She obviously loves Jamie; she automatically takes Ste in when he is
beaten at home. She also completely accepts their situation, if not right
away, soon after. Yet, I never get the feeling she would do the same
for Tony. With him, she is more like "You can hang around me as long as
you don't piss me off" Once he does, by helping Leah, she suddenly no
longer wants him around. Maybe that was just the last straw?
Anyway, that my two cents worth.
Keith
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:38:05 -0500
From: Joe
Subject: Re: A few thoughts
DC wrote:
> In a message dated 97-09-17 06:53:48 EDT, Andy writes:
>
> << Ste doesn't like the people at the
> Gloucestor, and the town isn' that big. >>
>
> Well, actually, I think London is a fairly big town! But as for the
> Gloucestor, I've wondered about that comment. Having lived through
> angst-ridden adolescence myself, I saw Ste's comment about hating the
> Gloucester as immature petulance - undersandable though it may be. He's in a
> frightened spot in that scene, worried about his family and about ever being
> happy, and he just found out that Jamie is moving away. Imagine the
> emotional roller coaster he was on in the last 8 hours or so. It would be
> very easy for him to dismiss any suggestion out of hand.
I agree. Ste's "I hate it" comment is quite appropriate during his
confrontation with Sandra. He has no idea what is going to happen next and I'm
sure his initial Gloucester experience was quite unsettling. Once it's the
next evening and things have settled down, going to the Gloucester with Jamie
(with Sandra's full knowledge - as well as Leah's), he is able to say to Leah
when she says, "Don't know any gay blokes," "Yes you do." And he smiles as he
says it and laughs at her line about "they'll all dance backward and never get
married."
Gary
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