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Email Archive Page 48

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:12:01 -0400
From: Kevin
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Sandra - thanks for your opinion - too often (I follow much more after
Jamie than Ste - although I have some of his quiet, shy tendencies - at
least around "strangers" <G>) - I forget how people like Ste feel - or,
for that matter, that they DO feel anything! So many times in college I
accused my best friend of not caring for me because he didn't care about
me the way I wanted him to. It wasn't that he didn't care - it's just
that he cared about me the only way HE knew how to. (I guess Ste is
pretty much the same way.) I too have grown ALOT since I last saw my
friend (we still talk on the phone periodically) - and though he still
doesn't "show" me that he loves me the way I want him to - I know that
he does care, or we wouldn't still be friends. It's tough being an
idealistic romantic (but I am) - I just keep hoping that love will find
me the way it found Jamie & Ste...
Kevin
_____
 
jmcs wrote:
>
> At 23:17 12/09/97 -0400, Kevin wrote:
> >You know - in spite of the fact that everyone sees Ste as the practical
> >type - it is rather amusing that he doesn't think before shouting at
> >Jamie AFTER the party. "Get your hands off me!...Get your fucking queer
> >hands off me!!" What was he thinking at that moment? Probably "Oh my
> >God, what would everyone else think if they knew I slept with a guy -
> >they'd think I was a queer! I've got to live up to the macho image that
> >my dad, brother and all of society have been molding me into for the
> >past 16 years and hope nobody else efigures it out." Ok, maybe I'm
> >pushing the point here - but think about it...the comment is definitely
> >a well thought out comment - though Jamie seems to bounce back pretty
> >quickly - "figuring out" that Ste is actually in love with him or he
> >wouldn't have been so mean! Yeah, right. I wasn't that bright at 16 -
> >when someone was mean to me (especially saying things like that!) I
> >really thought they hated me - even when I was in love with them - I
> >didn't realize they were being mean b/c they loved me...I thought they
> >were being mean b/c they really felt that way (no matter what beautiful
> >moments we may have spent together.) - So my point is -> I don't know
> >how serious a commitment Ste can make if he's alwayas gonna be worried
> >about what other people think about him. Remember when Jamie asks him to
> >dance at the end of the movie, he's still checking over his shoulder
> >before he accepts Jamie's hand.
> >I'm sorry if this sounds so morbid, but unfortunately, life is not
> >always full of happy endings, and though I was glad it turned out happy
> >- remember that this is an "urban FAIRYTALE" and after the "happily ever
> >after", life does go on.
> >Any comments???
> >Kevin
>
> Warning: Loooooooong post here!!
>
> A lot to say and no words to say it!!!
>
> About Stes uncalled for outburst: First of all, I must say I identify
> myself with both of them, Jamie and Ste. The Jamie part of me: the shy,
> introverted girl taunted and sometimes beaten at school with practically no
> friends at all until 19. The Ste part of me: the reserved, afraid of
> emotions girl, afraid of being hurt and (sometimes) too cerebral for my own
> good. Very often Ive said words Ive immediately regretted but I was too
> proud to say "Im sorry". Im working on that, and Im 'proud' to say Im
> improving. Stes outburst, albeit cruel and mean, is perfectly
> understandable, at least for me. Kevin is right, he was scared, he was
> worried about his macho image and so on and so forth but we mustnt forget
> he was leaving with Jamie when Leah opens her big mouth. It was pretty clear
> to me Ste had taken the decision to "come round tonight" at Jamies place.
> Its Leahs words in front of everybody which makes Ste lose control and his
> easier target is Jamie. "I love him but hes a man, and because of him
> everybodys going to laugh at me and call me queer. I have enough problems
> at home already with my father and brother. If they ever know about this,
> Im a dead man", so he loses his temper and insults him. Im positive,
> though, that he regretted his words the moment he uttered them, thats why
> he ran: he couldnt face Jamie after such an unjustifiable attack. I can
> understand him because Ive done the same thing very often. I was being
> insulted and my rage was increasing but I never spoke; I just hung on and
> hung on and when I finally let out my wrath and I exploded, the most
> guiltless person always carried the can. Im not excusing Ste, what he did
> was cruel and unforgivable, but understandable. Hes noble enough to
> apologize later with a present. Incidentally, I loved it when he enters
> Jamies room crestfallen, not daring to look into Jamies eyes, maybe even
> expecting Jamie to throw him out, knowing Jamie had all the right to do so
> if he wanted to. The way his face lights up when Jamie forgives him is
> absolutely priceless. We know at that moment how much he has regretted his
> words and how Jamies forgiveness is important to him. Everything is right
> again for Ste. He doesnt care about his peers opinion anymore, is Jamies
> opinion of him the only thing that matters to Ste.
>
> About how come Jamie knows Ste loves him after such words, beats me. I share
> Kevins opinion. If anyone ever said such things to me Id thought he didnt
> love me and Id stay as much away from him as possible. And Im 25 years
> old!! The only explanation I can offer is that perhaps their night together
> was so meaningful, Stes words and actions so heartfelt and sincere that
> they convinced Jamie that no matter what happened, Sted love him always.
> Besides, Jamie says to Sandra: "Hes in love, thats all" after theyve seen
> Ste hurry back inside. The way Ste looks at Jamie and then leaves is a look
> of shame. His eyes are full of shame (call me sentimental but sometimes I
> even think hes on the verge of tears). Im sure had they been alone in the
> terrace he would have apologized to Jamie right away, but Sandras presence
> didnt make it possible. If only for that look, Jamie knows *now* that Ste
> loves him.
>
> Finally, Stes looking over his shoulder before dancing. Again, Im talking
> about myself here. I always try to put myself in other peoples places
> before speaking. If my boyfriend asked me to dance in the street Im sure
> Id say: "Are you crazy?" Im too shy to make such a scene in public. Id go
> as red as a lobster. Or maybe Im in the mood and I feel reckless and I say:
> "What the hell!! Why not?" Well, Im not so sure about that, but everybodys
> entitled to let their hair down from time to time!! My point is that, in my
> opinion of course, even if Jamie was a girl, Ste would have felt reluctant
> to dance in public. Hes shy and has difficulties with showing his feelings
> in public. But once lost in the dance and in the feeling of Jamie in his
> arms, we can see his utter peace and contentment. He just closes his eyes
> and flies. I remember that when I saw Ste embracing Jamie, his smile on
> seeing that everybody accepts, the rightness of what theyre doing, I
> couldnt help but thinking that, finally, that was the real Ste. The real
> person that was waiting to bloom and thanks to Jamie is a complete person
> now. A whole human being.
>
> I hope I made any sense to you. Just my thoughts.
>
> Take care.
>
> Sandra.
>
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:30:46 -0400
From: Kevin
Subject: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited
Kent - Thanks!
As I've mentioned in a previous e-mail - I am a hopeless idealistic
romantic - and always want the "perfect" ending...and life more often
than not has proven to be less than perfect...but you are right in what
you say (albeit the long words made me scratch my head in bewilderment
<G>) at the end of your post! "For the Fairytale to continue, the story
of Jamie and Ste would have to continue to be 'happily ever after'" -
yes, it would! And each time I watch it, I am amazed to find that my
heart does begin to beat a little faster, hoping (and praying) that this
can be a reality.
Kevin
_____
Kent . wrote:
>
> Hi Kevin and everybody!
>
> >At 23:17 12/09/97 -0400, Kevin wrote:
>
> >You know - in spite of the fact that everyone sees Ste as the practical
> >type - it is rather amusing that he doesn't think before shouting at
> >Jamie AFTER the party. "Get your hands off me!...Get your fucking queer
> >hands off me!!" What was he thinking at that moment? Probably "Oh my
> >God, what would everyone else think if they knew I slept with a guy -
> >they'd think I was a queer! I've got to live up to the macho image that
> >my dad, brother and all of society have been molding me into for the
> >past 16 years and hope nobody else efigures it out." Ok, maybe I'm
> >pushing the point here - but think about it...the comment is definitely
> >a well thought out comment - though Jamie seems to bounce back pretty
> >quickly - "figuring out" that Ste is actually in love with him or he
> >wouldn't have been so mean! Yeah, right. I wasn't that bright at 16 -
> Well, I'm *still* not that bright! :) I don't think Jamie would have
> figured out Ste loves him *because* of what Ste said; rather it can
> only be *despite* what Ste said, I feel. It amazed me that we didn't
> see after that a scene of Jamie crying his heart out! I would have
> felt totally crushed and betrayed! Even Jamie's later casualness and
> belief that Ste is in love (with him), seems almost an act of Wishful
> Thinking! It's not as if Jamie has any real reason for his belief--
> except his belief in the power of love. That, and the fact that
> *something* happened when they were in bed, something that made Jamie
> fall in love with Ste. But even by the time of the party, Jamie isn't
> sure his feelings will be reciprocated. (Maybe Ste's quiet response to
> Jamie at the party, by not refusing outright another night together, is
> all it takes to convince Jamie that Ste does love him. I know if you
> want someone badly enough, it is easy to turn even the slightest sign of
> them feeling the same way into the Certainty that they do-- because you
> *want* them to.)
> >when someone was mean to me (especially saying things like that!) I
> >really thought they hated me - even when I was in love with them - I
> >didn't realize they were being mean b/c they loved me...I thought they
> >were being mean b/c they really felt that way (no matter what beautiful
> >moments we may have spent together.)
> Oh! I just don't think it is possible that this type of meanness stems
> from *love*. Surely it can only stem from *fear*; from the exact
> fear you describe Ste as having-- fear of being "outed" (or, perhaps,
> fear of *having been* outed, as Leah has just done, and in a very public
> setting).
> >- So my point is -> I don't know
> >how serious a commitment Ste can make if he's alwayas gonna be worried
> >about what other people think about him. Remember when Jamie asks him
> to
> >dance at the end of the movie, he's still checking over his shoulder
> >before he accepts Jamie's hand.
>
> For me, the time when Ste does this is the precise moment when he
> *overcomes* his fear. On the first couple viewings, I thought it
> strange that after Jamie asked Ste to dance ("Anyone about?"), after Ste
> looks around and says"Nah", they proceed into a plaza which is far from
> empty. The Screenplay says Ste's response to Jamie's question-- Scene
> 102-- is
>
> Ste (*nods to flat*): In there? (Jamie nods.) Nah.
>
> But it seems to me when I watch BT that Ste is describing their
> *surroundings* as not having anyone there-- he looks around them, not
> just to the flat. Since there obviously are *lots* of "body's" there,
> I then came to feel that Ste, in his taking of Jamie's hand, is
> *knowingly* and *publicly* declaring his love for Jamie. He is "outing
> himself". He accepts fully that he is gay (he just finished telling
> the same thing to Leah) and doesn't care if the whole world knows it.
> >I'm sorry if this sounds so morbid, but unfortunately, life is not
> >always full of happy endings, and though I was glad it turned out happy
> >- remember that this is an "urban FAIRYTALE" and after the "happily
> ever
> >after", life does go on.
> >Any comments???
> >Kevin
>
> I felt the dichotomy between the stark realism of the majority of the
> movie and the lyrical (magical, Absolutely Wonderful!) way it ended
> helped fulfill the mandate of a Fairytale-- everything turning out all
> right in the end. (I happen to believe that that is not bad, either;
> Fairytales are not inherently inferior means of conveying Truth; but
> that's another topic.) For the Fairytale to continue, the story of
> Jamie and Ste would have to continue to be "happily ever after",
> wouldn't it?
>
> Just my 3 cents worth (Inflation, you know! :))
>
> Kent
>
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:33:53 -0400
From: Kevin
Subject: Re: An older version of Jamie
Has anyone seen Kiss Me, Guido? I know we're supposed to be discussing
BT here, but Matt's post is good in keeping us aware of what's new out
there - and hopefully we can find more positive role models through
these shows and not have to rely on BT as the only gay positive movie in
creation!
Kevin
PS Has anyone heard the rumor that Ellen is going back to being
straight?
_________
matthew wrote:
>
> Last night I saw a sneak preview of IN & OUT. Kevin Klein does a
> wonderful and touchingly amusing job playing a man who is just realizing
> that he may be gay. His character reminds me a bit of Jamie even though
> they are different ages. Coming out to one's self is a funny, sad,
> painful, and joyful event in both films. If anyone else sees is, let us
> know what you think please.
>
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:35:48 -0400
From: Kevin
Subject: Re: Other recommendations
Mike - so glad to hear from you after so long! How're you doing? Glad
you're back - thanks for writing...
Kevin
_____
painter wrote:
>
> Hi Guys and Gals,
>
> Yeah, I saw "The Full Monty" as well tonight and liked it. Has a lot to do
> with the way men relate to one another and the way women perceive men (and
> men perceive themselves). I liked the whole 'getting over the body image'
> aspect of it.
>
> Saw the trailer for "In and Out" and wasn't at all impressed by that. In
> fact I wouldn't go see it based on the trailer but given other
> recomendations I might change my mind.
>
> Interesting being on the BT list again! How is everyone?!
>
> Mike
>
> > I didn't see "In and Out" yet, but... I highly recommend "The Full Monty."
> >Again, British, like BT. It's hilarious. About fired steel workers in
> >Sheffield, Yorkshire, who decide to be strippers to earn money. It has a
> >surprise or two. Well worth seeing. And using English slang you learned
> >from BT will come in handy, as always.
> >
> >Jeff
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Jeff
> >Date: Sunday, September 14, 1997 2:27 p.m.
> >Subject: Re: An older version of Jamie
> >
> >
> >
> >>matthew wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Last night I saw a sneak preview of IN & OUT. Kevin Klein does a
> >>> wonderful and touchingly amusing job playing a man who is just realizing
> >>> that he may be gay. His character reminds me a bit of Jamie even though
> >>> they are different ages. Coming out to one's self is a funny, sad,
> >>> painful, and joyful event in both films. If anyone else sees is, let us
> >>> know what you think please.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>I saw In and Out last night as well. I thought it was amusing and well
> >>made. But was much lighter than BT. They are obviously trying to
> >>target the mainstream market. If only the mainstream market would see
> >>BT, they would be pleasantly surprised!
> >>
> >>Jeff
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:05:28 -0400
From: Kevin
Subject: Re: A few thoughts
Joe - wow - I never noticed that before but Ste DOES skip school,
doesn't he? (or at least that's the implication!?!)
Kevin
_____
Joe wrote:
>
> Andrew wrote:
>
> > As for Jaime and Ste, I wonder if we are reading way too much into the
> > inbetween scenes. Between the fight and the apology, we do see Jaime but
> > we only see him in a happy mood. Jaime has figured out that Ste loves him.
> > As for Ste, I don't think he fully realized himself that he was in love
> > with Jaime until Sandra asked him. When Ste is on the bridge and he turns
> > down the girls, he obviously feels guilty what he said to Jaime but does
> > not know what to do about it. When he sees Ste later on the patio, I don't
> > think he was ready to apologize to Jaime because he thinks Jaime hates him
> > for it. When he sees Jaime, he does not even seem to notice Sandra -- he
> > takes one look at Jaime and flees. It is not until Sandra asks about his
> > new love that he realizes it is full blown love he feels for Jaime and that
> > if Jaime says Ste is in love, then obviously Jaime will forgive him.
> >
> Until I bought the BT video last May, I had only seen BT once - in a
> theater over Christmas break. But I had downloaded two video clips from
> the Sony site and I watched them over and over. One of the clips is the
> scene with Ste and Sandra about what Jamie has said about Ste being in
> love.
> Ste's absolute shock during the whole scene and his expression after
> Sandra and Tony leave him holding the money from Sandra supports, I
> think, a lot of what Andy is saying. Consider what Ste does next: he
> not only buys Jamie a gift with the money, but he skips the whole day of
> school. In other words, he goes completely off by himself before
> finally, late at night, coming to visit Jamie.
> Jamie, in the meantime, has already worked out a plan for the trip to
> the Gloucester.
>
> > in the same way, Beautiful Thing powerfully portrays the reality of dealing
> > with a forbidden love where the media and historical accounts of
> > homosexuality just do not cut it.
> >
> I didn't come out until I was 24 and I led a rather straight life until
> then, dating in high school (had great dates for both the junior prom
> and the senior ball) and since I was in a fraternity in college, there
> was no problem getting dates for house parties.
> What amazes me about a story like BT is just how close things parallel
> a straight romantic relationship: the first pangs of attraction, the
> subtle maneuvering to get closer to the person, all the intrigue that
> two people go through who can't just come out and express their love for
> each other, partly because they are not certain how the relationship
> will go.
> That's why I think BT can be so powerful for straight audiences,
> because it shows that we gay guys go through all the same things
> straights go through with the added problem that society doesn't approve
> of such relationships. I have straight (and supportive) friends who were
> very surprised that gay guys actually "date," and don't just have sex
> partners. that gay guys go through the same wondering, day dreaming, and
> uncertainty that straights go through.
>
> Gary
>
> --
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:14:05 -0400
From: Kevin
Subject: Re: A few thoughts -Reply
Keith - I too must agree with you about the "romance" thing. I keep
talking about it, but I guess I don't really see myself in a romantic
relationship with another guy (I guess, b/c none of the guys I've been
with have ever been potential "partners" - they just help me "get my
rocks off"! - sorry to be so forward!) - I don't know what I would do if
I encountered someone who wanted to have a romantic relationship with me
- I might tell him to "get (his) fucking queer hands off me" too. :S
Thanks for sharing,
Kevin
_____
Keith  wrote:
>
> Gary,
>
> What you said about gay people going through the same rituals of dating
> is so true, but you are right, so many people find that surprising. To be
> honest, it was even hard for me to know that is what I wanted. There
> are so many negative images about homosexuality out there, and since it
> isn't a topic a person coming to grips with their sexuality can
> usually discuss with others, we (or me at least) tended to start to think
> like the negative images, meaning I saw myself in sexual situations (for
> better or worse) but not in a romantic relationship with another guy. It
> took BT to really drive the point home that yes, I could see myself in a
> loving, caring relationship with another guy, and be very happy in it.
>
> I only wish I could have come to this conclusion 10 years ago.
>
> Keith
>
>
> (P.S. I also cast my vote for " The Full Monty" - it is a really funny movie!)
>
> --
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:50:40 -0500
From: Gary
Subject: Re: A few thoughts
Kevin wrote:
> Joe - wow - I never noticed that before but Ste DOES skip school,
> doesn't he? (or at least that's the implication!?!)
> Kevin
Yep, Jamie mentions that (just before Ste gives him the hat) that he
didn't see him in school that day. I took that to mean not that Ste
didn't talk to Jamie, but Jamie didn't _see_ him, and would have had he
been there. Yep, I think Ste was spending the day thinking - a lot.
Gary
--
 
--

**************************************************************

From: matthew
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:07:18 -0400
Subject: Re: An older version of Jamie
KISS ME GUIDO is a low budget but very amusing film too. And, like BT,
it has its touching moments. But it doesn't have the depth of BT.
Nevertheless it deals with gayness in relation to self, friends, and
family. Very worthwhile film.
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:05:26 -0400
From: ep
Subject: Ste skipping school
Hi,
Had to comment on this. In the film, there is no implication that Ste has
skipped school in order to buy Jamie a hat, and Jamie DOES NOT say ANYTHING
before Ste gives him the hat, much less anything about school. The scene
(73) opens with Ste handing Jamie a bag and saying: "I got you this."
I think Gary is thinking of the PLAY, where the same scene (Act II, Scene
iii) starts with Jamie saying to Ste: "You wasn't in school."
Ste goes on to say that he spent the day in Woolwich, where he has gotten
Jamie a hat.
Just another example of how the play differs from the screenplay.
-Eric
At 10:50 PM 9/18/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Kevin wrote:
>
>> Joe - wow - I never noticed that before but Ste DOES skip school,
>> doesn't he? (or at least that's the implication!?!)
>> Kevin
>
> Yep, Jamie mentions that (just before Ste gives him the hat) that he
>didn't see him in school that day. I took that to mean not that Ste
>didn't talk to Jamie, but Jamie didn't _see_ him, and would have had he
>been there. Yep, I think Ste was spending the day thinking - a lot.
>
>Gary
 
--

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:32:32 -0800
From: painter
Subject: Re: Re: Ste vs. Jamie revisited -Reply
>> Scott  said:
>>. So has Sandra, in Tony. But whereas Jamie embrace the love that
>>comes
>>his way, Sandra is perhaps frightened of it - at least that's my
>>interpretation of it. It certainly adds to the proud look she has when
>>dancing at the end...
To which Keith  responds:
>I've always wondered why Sandra does dump Tony in the end. I don't
>think its because she's frightened, though. I think she may be readjusting
>her priorities in life, and trying to make a clean break of her current
>situation. She can't wait to get out of Thamesmeade, and start over in
>her new bar. I think she may also realize that Tony is not, and never will
>be going anywhere in life, and she just can't have that in her life at this
>time. She indicates that she is a fighter, and is obviously not content to
>just drift through life. I think Tony may just have been a temporary
>diversion while she was stuck in Thamesmeade.
>
>Sandra shows she cares very strongly about the people around her.
>She obviously loves Jamie; she automatically takes Ste in when he is
>beaten at home. She also completely accepts their situation, if not right
>away, soon after. Yet, I never get the feeling she would do the same
>for Tony. With him, she is more like "You can hang around me as long as
>you don't piss me off" Once he does, by helping Leah, she suddenly no
>longer wants him around. Maybe that was just the last straw?
>
I agree that Sandra dumps Tony, not because she is afraid of love, but
because she realizea he's not a good match for her. Sandra is iritated with
Tony a lot of the time. Tony is a sweet guy but he hasn't sufficient
strength of character. He never stands up for himself but tries to placate
her. That isn't what Sandra wants or needs. She is a strong, independant
minded woman and wouldn't be happy in a relationship with anyone with less
strength of character than herself. So, as I see it, by the end of the
film, Sandra has grown up a bit as well. Jamie has found love. I never get
the feeling that Sandra loves Tony. By ending the relationship with him,
she's made herself available for something more to happen.
MW>
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:58:44 -0800
From: painter
Subject: On Presence and Love (was: Ste vs. Jamie revisited)
Kevin  wrote:
<snip>I just keep hoping that love will find
>me the way it found Jamie & Ste...
Hi Kevin. Thanks, it's good to be on the list again...
Loving relationships definitely can happen. They do take work, however. To
maintain a relationship beyond the first flush of sexual energy, even
romantic infatuation, requires honest, communication and what I call
'presence'. I believe presence is the key -- even to 'finding' love. If you
aren't present to yourself, aware of yourself being in your life and all
the rich experiences life has to offer (some of which are admittedly
painful), chances are you won't find real, lasting love.
Presence is the most attracative feature any human being can have. It's
hard to put into words what 'presence' is. It isn't something we learn
about in school. But you can usually tell when someone is present and when
they're not -- assuming that you yourself are present enough to notice.
Being present means I am in myself, my body, in this moment. I'm not acting
out or upset about anything or thinking about being somewhere else or with
someone else. I'm not caught in the past or thinking about the future. I'm
me, here, now; aware of who and what is going on around me and what is
taking place in me as a result.
'Presence' is not talked about in BT but it is clear to me that Jamie and
Ste are present with one another. The last scene where they dance together
is, for me, symbolic of presence. They are there in that moment (one might
alomst say, 'eternally') holding one another, engaged in the 'dance of
life' while the 'world', with its various reactions, looks on. None of that
is of much consequence to Jamie and Ste as they are simply being there for
and with one another. This is what it means to be 'present'.
There can be no genuine love without 'presence' -- at least part of the
time. (No one is present all the time). There can be lust, infatuation, and
various other complications which can masquarade as 'love', such as desire,
longing and obsession. But ultimately love comes in those moments when I am
being truly myself in the company of someone who can also be present with
me. Making love with such a person is one of the most wonderful things that
a human being can experience. It's more than sex. It can last for hours.
It's never boreing. 'Getting one's rox off' is not the point of it. It's
not a performance. It's an open ended dance of exploration, pleasure and
caring.
 
 
 
Mike
 
--

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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 20:36:07 +0200
From: jmcs
Subject: No subject
Hi everybody,
Mike, itīs good to hear from you again!! Welcome back!! I was dying to write
you but I donīt know whatīs going on with my PC lately. Iīm having many
problems with my server. A few examples: I canīt reach Davieīs website, only
at nights (?), exactly the same with the newsgroup, sometimes I canīt send
my messages even though Iīm connected to the net, I canīt download the pics
from Ericīs site... and in your case, every time I tried to send you a post,
the answer was: "unreachable server"... I want to tear my hair!! So, Iīm sorry.
Anyway, I loved you incredibly beautiful post "On presence and love". I know
what you mean. Itīs not a question of pedantic love words and relevant
displays, itīs about 'being' there, showing that you care, heart and soul.
Beautiful!!
 
Take care.
 
 
Sandra.
 
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:42:18 -0400
From: Kevin
Sender: bt@highstreet.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: On Presence and Love (was: Ste vs. Jamie revisited)
Dear Mike,
Wow, (as usual) that note was VERY profound...And I have to agree. I've
talked to MANY friends with words similar to yours ('though I like the
word "presence" so I may "borrow/steal" that one from now on)...but I
usually forget to LISTEN to what I say and take it to heart...
I KNOW I have been GENUINELY and TRULY "in love" in my life two times. I
say "in love" in quotes b/c I many people (present company EXCLUDED)
don't really know what LOVE is...The first time was in college (as I
have mentioned in previous notes), but he and I did not end up following
the same path (although we are still very close friends)...and recently
with my co-star from Fiddler. (She's leaving in a few weeks to move to
CA to pursue a career in film).
Anyways, (forgive me if this sounds like a soap-box, but I really feel
the need to explain) - my "problem" with Love, I guess, is MY problem. I
find myself bothered when people talk about love being gay or
straight...(which we have also mentioned in previous notes) - Love is
Love. (Wow, that was profound...NOT!) - Whether it is between two men,
women, or a man and a woman. Attraction, on the other hand can be gay or
straight. I have experienced both, but have found most people (ok, most
of the people I come in contact with) can't understand the difference
between the two. I'm either gay or straight. Personally, I don't think
I'm either...I'm nonsexual (ok, not by choice <G>)... Yeah, I find guys
EXTREMELY attractive, but I also find women quite pleasant (please no
comments on the fact that I didn't use attractive with women...the
attraction I have for women is VERY MUCH different than the attraction I
have for men, but, to me, it doesn't make it any less valid.)
I know that when I fall in love...it will be forever...and completely
(to borrow the words from a famous song!) I will give my heart to that
person...and my life...and my soul...I WILL give my WHOLE BEING...b/c,
to me, THAT's what love is...putting someone else before yourself.
I suppose that what you said in your note to me:
>"'Presence' is not talked about in BT but it is clear to me that Jamie and
>Ste are present with one another. The last scene where they dance together
>is, for me, symbolic of presence. They are there in that moment (one might
>alomst say, 'eternally') holding one another, engaged in the 'dance of
>life' while the 'world', with its various reactions, looks on. None of that
>is of much consequence to Jamie and Ste as they are simply being there for
>and with one another. This is what it means to be 'present'."
can be said, and is true, of ANY loving relationship. I suppose that's
why BT was such a beautifuul story.
Anyways, these are my feelings about it. And thanks, again, for your
words of wisdom.
As always, beautiful...
Kevin
_____
painter wrote:
>
> Kevin  wrote:
> <snip>I just keep hoping that love will find
> >me the way it found Jamie & Ste...
>
> Hi Kevin. Thanks, it's good to be on the list again...
>
> Loving relationships definitely can happen...
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:44:19 -0400
From: Keith
Subject: Re: On Presence and Love (was: Ste vs. Jamie revisited)
Kevin,
Your distinction between "love" and "attraction" is important - but they are
not mutually exclusive (not that you said it was), or unrelated. Isn't
"attraction" usually the first step towards "love"? In that sense,
attraction could be gender non-specific, just as you say love is. Saying an
"attraction" for men is different than an "attraction" for women sounds like
you're comparing apples to oranges. Sounds like you're either looking for
differences, or you're not sure what you're looking for with each gender.
Just my two cents worth.
Keith
>>> Kevin  09/22/97 02:42AM >>>
- Love is
Love. (Wow, that was profound...NOT!) - Whether it is between two men,
women, or a man and a woman. Attraction, on the other hand can be gay or
straight. Yeah, I find guys
EXTREMELY attractive, but I also find women quite pleasant (please no
comments on the fact that I didn't use attractive with women...the
attraction I have for women is VERY MUCH different than the attraction I
have for men, but, to me, it doesn't make it any less valid.)
 
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:36:13 +0200
From: jmcs
Subject: Hello there?
Hi everybody!!
 
Where are you?? I *had* to write. But the funniest thing is that I canīt
think of a subject right now. It never happened to you that you wanted to
wake up your friends but you couldnīt think of anything to talk about??
Specially me, the chatterbox of the list!!
The only thing I can come up with is this:
Do you have anything you would have liked to see in BT? Iīll explain myself
better. Thereīs a particular gesture, action, glance or scene you would have
liked to see in the film that was never shot?
In my case there are a few things but one of them is rather silly, as many
of my ideas. :) In the dancing sequence, when Jamie and Ste first start
dancing they separate just a moment to look into each otherīs eyes, smile at
each other, embrace again and continue dancing. I would have *loved* seeing
them rubbing their noses. I really thought it would fit. Itīs a silly thing
to do, I know, but it would also show their playfulness with one another and
the immensity of their feelings for each another.
Of course, there are other things I would have liked to see. Maybe a
flasback that showed when and how Ste and Jamie first met. How old they
were... if there was *magic* even then (Iīm sure there was)... I know all of
this is irrelevant since the film is absolutely perfect, but you know,
sometimes your imagination goes wild and you wonder what happened there and
how it was that... so, letīs share our ideas!!
 
Take care.
 
Sandra. (With the hope that at least one kind soul answers back)
 
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:36:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jason
Subject: Showing of Beautiful Thing...
I'd like to let everyone know that Beautiful Thing will be showing in
glorious 35mm in Minneapolis on Friday, October 10th.
The Bijou, the University of Minnesota's student run film group, will be
showing Beautiful Thing and The Incredibly True Adventures of Two Girls in
Love during the U of M's Coming Out Week activities. Beautiful Thing will
be playing Friday night, October 10th at 7:00 and 9:30 pm in Willey Hall.
It may also be showing Saturday night, October 11th, but I'm not sure at
this point.
If anyone needs directions to the show, you can e-mail me at
, and I'll gladly respond.
______________________________________________________________________________
Jason
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:40:48 -0400
From: Lady
Subject: Sandra's "Would Like to See" list
jmcs wrote:
>
> Hi everybody!!
> The only thing I can come up with is this:
>
> Do you have anything you would have liked to see in BT? Iīll explain myself better.
Thereīs a particular gesture, action, glance or scene you would have liked to see in the film that
was never shot?
Good topic Sandra! I have noticed in bits of the film that there are
glances from Ste to Jamie that indicate his feelings. Like in the water
going after the ball: Ste looks over at him with this very tender and
sweet look..amazing!
What would I have liked to have seen? Hmm, a toughie actually. I think
the glances and gestures that we already see are very good, and the
tension in some scenes is very well portrayed. I'm having a rough time
even coming up with something! I think maybe a more upset reaction from
Jamie when Ste totally rejects him after the party. I know I would be
hurt and confused if that had happened to me. Sorry to say that's all my
brain can come up with right now. Oh well! I'll watch the mail list to
see what is going on with this thread!
Sher
--

**************************************************************

From: Kent
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:44:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Hello there?
Hi Sandra!
Well, I don't know if I qualify as a "kind soul" ;-), but your idea
about an Alternate Universe BT, where *we* shot the movie, sounds like
lots of fun! And, for the extra-serious out there, please don't take
offense. I don't mean anything to indicate I didn't capital "L" Love BT
as it was, nor that I would expect my Wishlist would make it at all a
better movie (or even a better story-- for anyone else but me, that is!)
But we can dream, can't we??
Here is my own Top Ten List of:
***Beautiful Thing's Best Unshot Scenes!***
10. Jamie and Ste fast dancing at the Gloucester (with lots of laughter
between them!); *something* helped their spirits soar by the time they
were in Abbey Wood!
9. The night out at the Gloucester with Leah, Sandra, and the guys.
They must have had a great time; I'd like to have seen it!
8. How about a scene where Tony is able to be shown finding someone
special to start anew with? He's too loving and lovable a guy; he
deserves his happiness, too!
7. More occasions to see Scott/Ste's Beautiful Smile-- he is so glowing
when he looks at Jamie in Abbey Wood in the kissing scene; he should
have the opportunity in the movie for more such expressions of pure joy!
6. How about an extra 5 minutes in Scene 90 after Sandra goes in to bed
(Hey! *She* was willing to give them "5 minutes"-- should we accept any
less?) where we could see lots more of Jamie consoling, cuddling, and
reassuring Ste that "everything will be OK"? I always imagined it was
because of what Jamie did that night that Ste's mood turned from fear to
bravery by the next evening's dance in the piazza!
5. (This one's for you, Sandra!) How about a scene where the local
equivalent of Child Protective Services comes in and arrests Ste's
abusive father and brother!!
4. Ste and Jamie swimming and frolicking in the pool at the sports
centre. Think lots of splashing (and more laughing! Those guys deserve
some more scenes of onscreen happiness, right?)
3. A scene with Ste being able to be in school with Jamie and openly
not only protecting him from the guys who bully Jamie, but telling them
just where they can go, as he defiantly holds his love's hand in front
of the whole school!
2. Sandra telling Ste that she wants him to come and live with her (and
with Jamie), when they move to the Gloucester.
And my Number One Best Unshot Scene in the movie Beautiful Thing is--
surprise, judges , we have a tie!!:
1. Any scene where Jamie would say "I Love You" to Ste.
-tied with-
1. Any scene where Ste would say "I Love You" to Jamie.
OK, ok, they're all real saccharine, I know. But, c'mon, I've shown you
mine; will you show me yours? :-)
Kent
still lost in reverie!
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:03:42 +0100 (BST)
From: "David
Hello all!
I've mentioned this to a few people on the IRC channel, but just in case....
In the latest issue of Gay Times, there is a company advertising BT (as well as Jeffery & Pillow Book).
Despite a not-exactly-saying-much-about-the-Gay-plot website, it does offer it on sale via the Web
and the address is www.vci.co.uk
Hope this is of some use
Take care
David
aka Daveykins
--

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:51:45 -0500
From: Gary
Subject: Re: Showing of Beautiful Thing...
Jason  wrote:
> I'd like to let everyone know that Beautiful Thing will be showing in
> glorious 35mm in Minneapolis on Friday, October 10th.
>
> The Bijou, the University of Minnesota's student run film group, will
> be
> showing Beautiful Thing and The Incredibly True Adventures of Two
> Girls in
> Love during the U of M's Coming Out Week activities. Beautiful Thing
> will
> be playing Friday night, October 10th at 7:00 and 9:30 pm in Willey
> Hall.
> It may also be showing Saturday night, October 11th, but I'm not sure
> at
> this point.
Your post got me thinking: I imagine a lot of college groups here
in the US will be showing BT or similar films during their Coming Out
Week activities. If anyone hears of similar activities, I'd be
interested in knowing about them. Down here in the Deep South, even the
gay groups at places like the University of Alabama and the the
University of Mississippi stage Coming Out Week activities.
Gary
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:13:22 -0400
From: ep
Subject: Re: Sandra's "Would Like to See" list
 
>What would I have liked to have seen? Hmm, a toughie actually.
You would have liked to have seen a "toughie"?? Shame! ;-)
-Eric
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:54:25 -0400
From: eperkins@ziplink.net
Subject: New UK Video Release
HI,
As you know, Beautiful Thing has been re-released on video in the UK
(following an exclusive Virgin release). I've put a scan of the new video
cover up on my BT website (in the pix section) if you are interested in
seeing it. It's very different from the other one. Click on the thumbnail
to get a larger view:
Best,
Eric
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:41:57 -0400
From: Lady
Subject: Re: Hello there?
Kent wrote:
> And my Number One Best Unshot Scene in the movie Beautiful Thing is--
> surprise, judges , we have a tie!!:
>
> 1. Any scene where Jamie would say "I Love You" to Ste.
>
> -tied with-
>
> 1. Any scene where Ste would say "I Love You" to Jamie.
>
> OK, ok, they're all real saccharine, I know. But, c'mon, I've shown you
> mine; will you show me yours? :-)
>
>
Kent!!! Those were brilliant! And you've left me now with nothing to
say about it! LOL Great great list of things! Can't wait to see what
else comes up in this thread!
Sher
--

**************************************************************

From: matthew
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:22:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Sandra's "Would Like to See" list
Hmmm. Is a toughie the same as a woodie or a boner???
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:25:58 -0400
From: ep
Subject: Re: Sandra's "Would Like to See" list
At 03:22 PM 9/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hmmm. Is a toughie the same as a woodie or a boner???
Yes!
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:00:28 +0200
From: jmcs
Subject: Re: Sandra's "Would Like to See" list
At 17:40 26/09/97 -0400, I wrote:
>> Do you have anything you would have liked to see in BT? Iīll explain
myself better. Thereīs a particular gesture, action, glance or scene you
would have liked to see in the film that was never shot?
And you answered:
>Good topic Sandra! I have noticed in bits of the film that there are
>glances from Ste to Jamie that indicate his feelings. Like in the water
>going after the ball: Ste looks over at him with this very tender and
>sweet look..amazing!
Thereīs another thing I LOVED. We see from the very beginning how much
Jamieīs madly in love with Ste already. In Steīs case, itīs more an equally
powerful attraction. He doesnīt fully understand what his glances to Jamie
really mean.
We guess Jamieīs been thinking about Ste a long time now. But what about Ste?
We have no way to know, but thereīs something that can gave us a hint about
how long Steīs been thinking or rather, how long heīs been looking at Jamie.
In the "Hello" scene Ste says:
"Dīyou always wear glasses when you read?"
"Supposed to."
"You donīt in school."
Again, that subtle clue. Steīs been looking at Jamie for quite some time too.
>What would I have liked to have seen? Hmm, a toughie actually. I think
>the glances and gestures that we already see are very good, and the
>tension in some scenes is very well portrayed. I'm having a rough time
>even coming up with something! I think maybe a more upset reaction from
>Jamie when Ste totally rejects him after the party. I know I would be
>hurt and confused if that had happened to me. Sorry to say that's all my
>brain can come up with right now. Oh well! I'll watch the mail list to
>see what is going on with this thread!
>
> Sher
I TOTALLY agree. In fact, if I had to sum up what BT is about, one of the
things Iīd say is this: BT is a movie about glances, about that wordless
communication that says it all far better than one million words.
 
And another moment I would have loved to see:
In the backrub scene, it would have been incredible seeing Jamie kissing
Steīs bruises.
 
Kent, I LOVED your Top Ten moments. DITTO to each one of them!!!
And about the one you dedicated to me (thank you so much): letīs not forget
Jamieīs punches!! OHH, yeah, Jamie punching Trevorīs jaw... delightful!!!
 
More later.
Take care.
 
 
Sandra.
 
 
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:40:47 +0100
From: jmcs
Subject: Re: Sandra's "Would Like to See" list
At 17:40 26/09/97 -0400, I wrote:
>> Do you have anything you would have liked to see in BT? Iīll explain
myself better. Thereīs a particular gesture, action, glance or scene you
would have liked to see in the film that was never shot?
And you answered:
>Good topic Sandra! I have noticed in bits of the film that there are
>glances from Ste to Jamie that indicate his feelings. Like in the water
>going after the ball: Ste looks over at him with this very tender and
>sweet look..amazing!
Thereīs another thing I LOVED. We see from the very beginning how much
Jamieīs madly in love with Ste already. In Steīs case, itīs more an equally
powerful attraction. He doesnīt fully understand what his glances to Jamie
really mean.
We guess Jamieīs been thinking about Ste a long time now. But what about Ste?
We have no way to know, but thereīs something that can gave us a hint about
how long Steīs been thinking or rather, how long heīs been looking at Jamie.
In the "Hello" scene Ste says:
"Dīyou always wear glasses when you read?"
"Supposed to."
"You donīt in school."
Again, that subtle clue. Steīs been looking at Jamie for quite some time too.
>What would I have liked to have seen? Hmm, a toughie actually. I think
>the glances and gestures that we already see are very good, and the
>tension in some scenes is very well portrayed. I'm having a rough time
>even coming up with something! I think maybe a more upset reaction from
>Jamie when Ste totally rejects him after the party. I know I would be
>hurt and confused if that had happened to me. Sorry to say that's all my
>brain can come up with right now. Oh well! I'll watch the mail list to
>see what is going on with this thread!
>
> Sher
I TOTALLY agree. In fact, if I had to sum up what BT is about, one of the
things Iīd say is this: BT is a movie about glances, about that wordless
communication that says it all far better than one million words.
 
And another moment I would have loved to see:
In the backrub scene, it would have been incredible seeing Jamie kissing
Steīs bruises.
 
Kent, I LOVED your Top Ten moments. DITTO to each one of them!!!
And about the one you dedicated to me (thank you so much): letīs not forget
Jamieīs punches!! OHH, yeah, Jamie punching Trevorīs jaw... delightful!!!
 
More later.
Take care.
 
 
Sandra.
 
 
--

**************************************************************

From: matthew
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:53:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Sandra's "Would Like to See" list
Ah, so! But I think Jamie and Ste are much too modest at that point to
reveal themselves -- they are scared of being gay, scared of each other,
scared of everyone thinking or knowing that they are gay. Believe me --
I know how that is. Not a time for physical revelation. But it is a nice
thought.
--

**************************************************************

Message sent by the Beautiful Thing Mailing List
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Sender: bt@highstreet.demon.co.uk
via smtpd (for ns3.satelink.net [208.222.214.19]) with SMTP; 29 Sep 1997 19:07:44 UT
Subject: all right!
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:09:48 -0400
I finally got signed up for this list again. I have missed discussing the
topics and characters of BT. Hope to hear from you all soon.
Are there still plans to meet in October?
Todd Brown
tbrown@inv.net
http://www.satelink.net/~tbrown
--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:53:14 +0100 (BST)
From: "David
Subject: Re: all right!
 
>
>I finally got signed up for this list again. I have missed discussing the
>topics and characters of BT. Hope to hear from you all soon.
>
>Are there still plans to meet in October?
>Todd
>--
>
AFAIK the meet is still going ahead as planned, although, due to forthcoming
other commitments, I can't make it myself! Damn!
I hope someone forwards me the odd piccy at least?
BTW I got my replacement copy of BT today - care of
the BT/Jeffrey double pack I mentioned to a few people.... It's unfortunately
the "pan & scan" version - but I'd rather have that than no
copy at all.... Needless to say I've been busy this evening :-)
Take care all,
David
--

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:31:54 +0100
From: jmcs
Subject: Re: all right!
At 15:09 29/09/97 -0400, Todd wrote:
>I finally got signed up for this list again. I have missed discussing the
>topics and characters of BT. Hope to hear from you all soon.
Hello, again, Todd!! Welcome aboard!!! You finally managed, eh? Nice to hear
from you again!!
Our current topic is: Is there any scene, gesture, glance or whatever you
would have liked to see in the film that was never shot?
>Are there still plans to meet in October?
There ARE plans, indeed. I wonīt be able to attend, but there ARE plans.
Take care.
 
Sandra.
 
 
--

**************************************************************

From: Chris
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:06:41 +0000
Subject: Re: all right!
Priority: normal
> Are there still plans to meet in October?
Hiya Todd
Yeah the meet is still on. As far as I know the plans are still the
ones on the BT website. I will post a mewssage to the group with
full details as and when I get them.
 
--
Chris
--

**************************************************************

From: Chris
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:10:19 +0000
Subject: Re: all right!
> I hope someone forwards me the odd piccy at least?
>
I'll ber taking my camera and hope to put together a website similar
to the one i did for the June(?) meet. Details as and when It
happens :)
> BTW I got my replacement copy of BT today - care of the BT/Jeffrey
> double pack I mentioned to a few people.... It's unfortunately the
> "pan & scan" version - but I'd rather have that than no copy at
> all.... Needless to say I've been busy this evening :-)
Eeeek!!!! Pan and scan sucks :(
Definatly better than nothing though. :)
--
Chris
--

**************************************************************

From: Todd
Subject: Re: all right!
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:30:23 -0400
I was just curious. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to go as I
thought. I just started my new job a couple months ago and can't take any
vacation for 3 months. Plus I need to have time to visit family over the
holidays coming up. It just sucks. But the job is a lot better than the
one I had before.
Thanks for the information all.
Todd
----------
: From: Chris
: Subject: Re: all right!
: Date: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 9:06 AM
:
: > Are there still plans to meet in October?
:
: Hiya Todd
:
: Yeah the meet is still on. As far as I know the plans are still the
: ones on the BT website. I will post a mewssage to the group with
: full details as and when I get them.
:
:
: --
: Chris
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:05:17 +0100 (BST)
From: "David
Hello folks!
Hope you have a great time at the get together! Sorry I can't make it, but please ring me up for a natter!
(I've given Andre my telephone numbers!)
Take care
David
 
--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:11:29 +1100
From: Andrew
Subject: ok, who turned the lights out?
Still here...just lurking!
(envisage that dark back-room in the sauna :))
 
--

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