Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:11:22 -0400

From: MGB

Subject: Re: ok, who turned the lights out?

There are also lots of BT fans to be found daily on DalNet at #beautiful-thing

Join us anytime!!

MGB

Gary wrote:

> I don't know if my first message got through - all I got was a "bounce"

> back and a set of mailing list instructions.

> Anyhow, there's a young fellow on the P-FLAG list who has just come out to

> his family (and pretty much to himself) _and_ he's just discovered BT.

> I want to send him instructions as to how to subscribe to this list and

> also the current URL for the web site, but I don't have either handy.

> Could someone please e-mail them to me?

>

> Thanks,

> Gary

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:59:17 -0400

From: ep

Subject: web updates

hi,

some updates at my BT site:

Interview with Jonathan Harvey from Campaign Australia. You may have read

the interview already, but there is at least one pic that's new to me!

Later on in the week, I'll be adding pictures of more foreign posters, and

video covers. Maybe a few pix from my recent trip to Thamesmead as well!

Best,

Eric

--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:59:51 -0500

From: Gary

Subject: My paper got accepted

Just got the following letter in the mail (while I was out of town in Hot

Springs, Arkansas):

"As Area Co-chair, I am happy to accept your proposed presentation, "A

'Beautiful Thing' on the Internet: Building Gay Community in Cyberspace" for

the joint 1998 meeting of the Popular Culture Association and the American

Culture Association. As you know, the meeting this year will take place at the

Buena Vista Hotel, Buena Vista (Orlando), FL, April 8-11, 1998."

That means I'll get to present my paper to a wide variety of folks (mostly

academic types - faculty and students) interested in popular culture. It also

means that my employer - the university - will be paying for the trip. Also, I

think it's deliciously ironic that I get to present a gay-themed scholarly

paper at a conference taking place right near Disney World. <G>

The overall idea of the paper is to discuss how a media event - in this

case the release of BT - develops into a whole cyberspace community. After

all, we started with a website, then a mailing list, then an IRC channel, then

a newsgroup, not to mention the trips to Thamesmead, etc.

There have been other instances, most recently with the musical, "Rent,"

which has led to online discussion groups, especially among gay youth who have

been deeply affected by the production.

As you can guess, I really happy and excited to have this opportunity to

turn my BT "fandom" into something professionally connected and personally

rewarding.

Gary

--

**************************************************************

From: Todd

Subject: Re: My paper got accepted

Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:58:28 -0400

CONGRATS!!!! It just keeps going doesn't it? When I first saw this movie,

I had no idea it would develop into something so cross-cultured and world

wide. Amazing!

Good luck with the presentation. At least you have some time to prepare:-)

Todd

----------

> From: Gary

> Subject: My paper got accepted

> Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 3:59 PM

>

> Just got the following letter in the mail (while I was out of town in

Hot

> Springs, Arkansas):

> "As Area Co-chair, I am happy to accept your proposed presentation,

"A

> 'Beautiful Thing' on the Internet: Building Gay Community in Cyberspace"

for

> the joint 1998 meeting of the Popular Culture Association and the

American

> Culture Association. As you know, the meeting this year will take place

at the

> Buena Vista Hotel, Buena Vista (Orlando), FL, April 8-11, 1998."

>

> That means I'll get to present my paper to a wide variety of folks

(mostly

> academic types - faculty and students) interested in popular culture. It

also

> means that my employer - the university - will be paying for the trip.

Also, I

> think it's deliciously ironic that I get to present a gay-themed

scholarly

> paper at a conference taking place right near Disney World. <G>

>

> The overall idea of the paper is to discuss how a media event - in

this

> case the release of BT - develops into a whole cyberspace community.

After

> all, we started with a website, then a mailing list, then an IRC channel,

then

> a newsgroup, not to mention the trips to Thamesmead, etc.

> There have been other instances, most recently with the musical,

"Rent,"

> which has led to online discussion groups, especially among gay youth who

have

> been deeply affected by the production.

> As you can guess, I really happy and excited to have this opportunity

to

> turn my BT "fandom" into something professionally connected and

personally

> rewarding.

>

> Gary

> --

--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:04:32 -0400

From: lady

Subject: Re: My paper got accepted

 

 

Gary wrote:

> Just got the following letter in the mail (while I was out of town in Hot

> Springs, Arkansas):

> "As Area Co-chair, I am happy to accept your proposed presentation, "A

> 'Beautiful Thing' on the Internet: Building Gay Community in Cyberspace" for

> the joint 1998 meeting of the Popular Culture Association and the American

> Culture Association. As you know, the meeting this year will take place at the

> Buena Vista Hotel, Buena Vista (Orlando), FL, April 8-11, 1998."

>

>

Congratulations!!! Well done, let us know how it goes :)

 

Sher

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:46:09 -0500

From: Gary

Subject: Re: My paper got accepted

Todd  wrote:

> CONGRATS!!!! It just keeps going doesn't it? When I first saw this movie,

> I had no idea it would develop into something so cross-cultured and world

> wide. Amazing!

>

> Good luck with the presentation. At least you have some time to prepare:-)

Thanks. And, speaking of "preparation," I'd appreciate any comments from

any folks on this list that I could use in my paper.

Gary

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:56:20 -0500 (CDT)

From: Jason

Subject: Re: My paper got accepted

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Gary wrote:

> That means I'll get to present my paper to a wide variety of folks (mostly

> academic types - faculty and students) interested in popular culture. It also

> means that my employer - the university - will be paying for the trip. Also, I

> think it's deliciously ironic that I get to present a gay-themed scholarly

> paper at a conference taking place right near Disney World. <G>

Although Disney presents an image of wholesome, turn-of-the-century,

clean-cut Americana, the Disney corporation itself is hardly an enemy to

thegay community. The Disney Company is big on partners rights and offer

insurance benefits to employees partners. The show "Ellen" is owned by

Disney. And I believe that at least half of the employees of the various

parks and hotels owned by Disney have GOT to be gay. Some friends of mine

and I went to Gay Day at the WDW last June. The employees of the park and

the hotel we stayed in were incredibly supportive.

Last, but not least, anyone who can piss off the Southern Baptists enough

to boycott movies like Snow White, Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty (all

movies which seem to celebrate the idea of male dominance and

"traditional" family values) is high on my list of gay-positive companies.

I hope that your presentation goes wonderfully, Joe. I stayed at the

Buena Vista Palace when I was there for gay day. Beautiful hotel, great

pool, and probably lots of hotties wearing skimpy bathing suits!

 

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:35:36 -0500

From: Gary

Subject: Anyone got a web site?

 

 

I've just updated Skippy's Queer World, a long list of glb links by

category, but I desperately need to update Skippy's Kweer Kennel, a page of

links to gay guys' personal home pages.

I know some of you on this list have pages, so check out my site and let me

know if I may add a link to your location.

The site gets a lot of traffic, especially since it was listed this summer

in Out Magazine's book of glb web sites.

Gary

--

**************************************************************

From: David

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:49:17 -0700

Subject: Observation

I mean NO criticism of the film. I think it's great! The film does

indeed parallel most "gay" mating ritual. I'm as guilty as the next, I

suppose, in this. In seeking a relationship and love we too often opt

for physical intimacy first, hoping that will develope into a lasting

commitmet.

I know Jamie and Ste have been mates for along time.

Their "sharing" with one another takes place before their "romancing" in

the Wood.

In their case all works out well; but more often than not in the "real"

world it doesn't.

--

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:11:09 +0200 (MET DST)

From: Martijn

Subject: Re: web updates

>Later on in the week, I'll be adding pictures of more foreign posters, and

>video covers. Maybe a few pix from my recent trip to Thamesmead as well!

Great Eric, i will watch it tomorow at work:-)))

 

Martijn

--

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:28:19 -0800

From: painter

Subject: Re: Observation

Hi BTers, I didn't realize when I started writing this that it was going to

go on forever and a day -- but so it goes sometimes... David's

'observation' just sparked a lot of thoughts in me and I started writing.

This has nothing much to do with BT directly so if you aren't interested in

my speculations, you should hit 'delete' pretty quickly.

David,

First, in regards to BT, one of the things I respond to in the film is that

it shows two young guys falling in love in a positive light. It's not much

more traumatic for them than it would be for any teenage couple. There is,

of course, the added burden of having to deal with the 'coming out' issue

which straight teenagers don't have to face. But, in the end, love wins

out. So many gay themed films end up with trauma or tragedy of one sort or

another. It is refreshing to see a film where that DOESN'T happen. I'll go

a bit further... I think one of the problems we have is not having POSITIVE

role modeling in the media around us. We have no idea how damaging this is

to our own sense of self and community. I run into evidences of this all

the time. Many gay youth have a difficult time accepting their sexuality in

part because they don't have 'reflections' around them which they can

relate to and accept. This is just one of the beautiful things about

Beautiful Thing; it provides that kind of social self-reflection.

Now as to the question, why don't many gay relationships 'work out' in the

'real' world.

First off, let me say that I'm not all together convinced that 'gay'

relationships don't work any more frequently than straight relationship

(although, obviously, there are specific problems gay people face that are

unique to their situation). Guys and gals meet, have affairs, hit some hard

bumps along the way and separate all the time. My god, how many books,

films, poems, songs and so on have been created about failed (straight)

romances?? It's kind of a fact of life in general.

Now of course it gets more complicated because in straight relationships

there is the 'marriage' option. Lots of young people begin dating with this

option in the back of their minds. They're looking for a partner with which

to act out their biological imperative of 'making a family'. As we all

know, a good half of these relationships will not prove the test of time.

And even among those that do, one wonders if it might not have been better

for all concerned if they had not.

For gays it is a bit different. First, there is the almost inevitable

residue of inner conflicts that have resulted from growing up gay in a

straight society. Most gay people struggle with this and various forms of

'internalized homophobia' all their lives. Beyond this, even if the impulse

to find a partner is there, the overriding 'biological impulse' is

different. Although gay couples can and sometimes do create families, that

is usually not the primary purpose of their bonding. Rather it is usually a

combination of sexual satisfaction, romance, companionship and partnership.

The fact that these relationships take shape in a society which is not only

ignorant of them but often down right hostile toward them makes their

actual existence more miraculous than anything.

The point I'm getting at here is that relationships, real relationships,

are difficult to come by regardless of whether you are gay or straight.

Even straight relationships that appear on the surface to work often

re-create dysfunctional family dynamics. The same can be said for gay

relationships as well -- and that has very little to do with their being

composed of two (or, in some cases, more) gay partners.

Just as there is a lot of ignorance about us in the straight community,

there's a lot of ignorance about us in the gay community as well. What ARE

gay people, anyway? In my own experience (hey, I'll be 50 in January, and

half a century of living and observing myself and others ought to count for

something!) the 'gay community' is very diverse. I know literally hundreds

of gay men. Many of these I know through contact in circumstances

(workshops, retreats, that sort of thing -- NOT clubs and bars) which have

allowed me to get to know more of the 'real person'. What continually

amazes me is that besides the fact we are all attracted to the same sex, we

have DAMN LITTLE else in common. The 'gay community' is as diverse as the

'straight community'. (A few examples: Some gay men only want to have sex,

not relationships; some only want sex in a committed relationship; some

don't want sex at all only relationships; some don't want either; some

don't know what they want but think they do; some are smart, some are dumb,

some are pretty, others are not; some have money, some don't; some are

'straight acting' others couldn't care less; some are HIV positive, some

aren't; some are into things which seem trivial to me, others are so dense

as to be almost incomprehsible; some are young, some are old; some are

available (to me) others are not; I could go on almost forever...)

So, when it comes to finding a partner, the first question I have to ask

myself is 'who am I?' Some knowledge of myself is necessary before I can

ask the other question -- 'what do I need in a partner?' Most gay men (just

like most straight men) throw themselves into the maze with little or no

self awareness with the naive belief that 'love' will find them. Well, it

might; then again it might not. And even if it does, when begun with this

naiveté one is often at a loss for how to sustain a relationship beyond the

first flush of erotic desire and romantic infatuation. This is not unique

to gays. The reason most relationships fail is that the partners lack any

real self awareness and, consequently, project a lot of pre--(and

'UN')--conscious need onto their partner. If, for example, you are looking

for a partner in order to become more 'complete' as a person, chances are

the relationship will falter. More likely than not the partner you're

attracted to will be projecting the same unconscious expectation onto you.

One day one or both of you will wake up to discover that the other is not

who you thought he was. He's not 'perfect'. He has faults. He doesn't

satisfy your 'real' needs, etc., etc.

Several things are needed to find and maintain a relationship. I'm

suggesting the first and most important is at least a modicum of self

awareness. I don't mean you have to have spent many years on the analyst's

couch; I simply mean you have to have the willingness to look at yourself

-- learn through on-going experience who you are, your strengths and

weaknesses, what you have to offer another and what you need from another.

Now this is far from easy. For one thing it is almost impossible to be

objective about one's self. In some areas of my life I may have too high an

evaluation of myself, in other areas perhaps low self esteem reigns, in

still other areas I may know almost nothing about myself and not even know

I DON'T know. I may fool myself completely. For example, I know lots of gay

men who SAY they want a relationship but, in point of fact, they never make

themselves open or vulnerable in a way that would allow a real relationship

to sprout and grow -- or at least not with someone capable of meeting their

own vulnerability and openness. Apparently what they really want is to set

up situations where they can continually reinforce their already negative

opinions of them selves and other gay men. For example, I know one young

(to me) man (35) who is always falling for guys much younger than himself.

He's attracted to their youthful exuberance and then becomes totally

unhinged (confused, distraught, angry, self abusive and blaming) when these

beautiful young men turn out to be real people with real limitations (just

like him). As one author put it, "The price of his transgression was yet

another ruined fantasy." This guy is perpetually lamenting the

'superciliousness' of 'other gay men' as if he isn't doing anything to make

this happen. He doesn't get that it is his own self-ignorence and

unrealistic expectations (not to mention superficial attractions toward)

these guys which make having a real relationship with them impossible.

(Being a friend of his, I have pulled no punches in pointing this out to

him and he seems to be catching on, although very slowly.)

What does it take to make a real relationship work? As I've said, the first

thing is some self awareness. I need to know at least a little bit about

myself, who I am, what I want in life and what I don't want. I also need to

be open to the reality that I never know myself completely; I always have

something more to learn. I can only start with what I know about myself now

and try to stay open to learning more. I also need to stay open to the

reality that as I grow and learn, I change. Who I am now is not who I was

25 years ago (thank heavens!). Not only have I aged physically and matured

emotionally and spiritually, my whole orientation to life is from the point

of view of someone in mid-life; not someone on the threshold of adulthood.

I've had many lovers and two long term relationships (one with a woman --

boy was THAT a surprise!). I've lost a lover suddenly to death and had to

face bewilderment and almost overwhelming grief. And I've had to go beyond

that to opening my heart to a new relationship (in progress) without

closing my heart to the lover I lost. All this and much more comes from the

richness of a life lived deeply and well. A life in which risks were taken

and did not always work out as I had hoped. A life in which disappointment

and satisfaction, joy and grief, have a living, dynamic balance. As the

Buddhists say, you cannot have the one without the other as they are all of

one piece -- life itself.

I've written in this forum before that I believe the most important thing

in finding and maintaining a relationship is what I call 'presence'.

Presence is an immediate, in the moment, self awareness. I am here, in this

moment, 'with' whatever is going on both inside and around me. I can feel

my own feelings. I accept them for what they are without giving them more

attention than they are due. I am aware of my thoughts and physical

sensations (some of which are very subtle and can act as a guide to

understanding lots of things that would otherwise be unconscious and

incomprehensible to my thoughts). I understand that 'listening' is more

important than speaking (you wouldn't know it from this post, I know, but

hey, I don't post THAT often). I listen not only with my ears but with my

mind, heart, body and soul. For example, I've learned that I'm attracted to

(desire) many men who would never make appropriate partners for me. I don't

deny myself these attractions. They are what they are and the thrill of it

feels good. How or whether I act on these attractions at all depends upon a

whole range of other factors ('context' 'availability' etc.).

When it comes to finding and maintaining a relationship in the 'big R'

sense of the word, for example, I know that a crucial element is

reciprocity. The other must also be 'present' (at least some of the time;

none of us are all the time), have some sense of who he is in himself and

in the world and a reciprocal interest in getting to know the whole complex

range of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual qualities that are 'me'.

With this something is possible (there are never any guarantees) and I know

that risks can be taken with no possibility of 'failure'. Whatever happens

will be a learning about myself and about the other -- and possibly about a

third thing called 'us'.

Beyond 'presence' the other important thing about creating and sustaining a

relationship is 'communication'. Communication isn't just with words. Words

are important but they are only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Communication isn't just what I say, it is what I think, what I feel, what

I do and how I do it. Communication happens AS A RESULT of my

self-awareness and presence: the quality of my communication will be

determined by the quality of the other two. Communication is the exchange

of essential life energy between me and my partner. It takes place when we

talk, when we make love, when we are quiet together, when we make decisions

about our lives, when we disagree and perhaps even argue (a component in

every real relationship). Relationship is an on-going dialogue, an exchange

of information, feelings and energy. It exists only in those moments when

the partners are there both with themselves as individuals and with the

other. When this happens it doesn't matter much 'what' is happening. Right

now, for example, I'm sitting here hurriedly typing away while Thomas

waters the many plants that fill our home. Even though we aren't actually

paying attention to one another, we are together in this space, connected.

This is love.

Yikes!! I'll stop now. I apologize if I've disinterested you with my

monologue. Guess it was just something I needed to say for myself. I hope

at least a few of you find it of some use as well.

Mike

---------------------

You wrote:

>I mean NO criticism of the film. I think it's great! The film does

>indeed parallel most "gay" mating ritual. I'm as guilty as the next, I

>suppose, in this. In seeking a relationship and love we too often opt

>for physical intimacy first, hoping that will develope into a lasting

>commitmet.

>

>I know Jamie and Ste have been mates for along time.

>

>Their "sharing" with one another takes place before their "romancing" in

>the Wood.

>

>In their case all works out well; but more often than not in the "real"

>world it doesn't.

>

>--

 

 

Mike

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:01:04 +0100

From: jmcs

Subject: Re: Observation

At 22:49 21/10/97 -0700, David wrote:

>I mean NO criticism of the film. I think it's great! The film does

>indeed parallel most "gay" mating ritual. I'm as guilty as the next, I

>suppose, in this. In seeking a relationship and love we too often opt

>for physical intimacy first, hoping that will develope into a lasting

>commitmet.

>

>I know Jamie and Ste have been mates for along time.

>

>Their "sharing" with one another takes place before their "romancing" in

>the Wood.

>

>In their case all works out well; but more often than not in the "real"

>world it doesn't.

 

In my case, what immediately drew me to BT was that they didn´t 'mate' at

first sight, so to speak. I´m sick of these films. I don´t know about you,

but it would have been really intolerable for me something like this:

"What´s your name?" "Jamie. And yours?" "Ste" "Nice to meet you. Now, your

place or mine?"

Beautiful Thing is one of the most romantic films of all time, in my

opinion. There´s ROMANCE in it. Tons and tons of romance. We don´t know how

many years Ste and Jamie have been neighbours, or how many months (or even

years) they have been looking at each other with that shy, timid glance they

share for most of the film. We can see there´s a very strong rapport between

them, almost like a spiritual connection. How they seem to anticipate each

other´s thoughts, how their eyes seek each other, looking for that special

complicity and understanding. We can see how their souls grow closer and

closer until their joining in the 'Peppermint' scene.

>From my point of view, that´s BT´s main appeal. Jamie´s absolutely in love

with Ste from the first scene and Ste´s strongly attracted to Jamie. They´re

both scared of their feelings, as in any case of first love, plus the fact

that they are two boys. But the bond they share is too strong and despite

themselves, they are destined to be together. They exchange longing glances

during almost forty minutes and considering the film is 88 minutes long,

that´s a very long time. Whether they did or didn´t do 'something' that

night is debatable. To me, the most important thing is that Jamie started

kissing Ste´s lips once and then he caressed his bruised chest after asking

Ste´s permission. In that small request we can see the deep and abiding love

Jamie feels for Ste. Ste´s feelings are more important to him than anything,

and I´m positive that if Ste had said: "Jamie, please. I´m not prepared for

this. Not tonight", it would have been Jamie the one who would have turned

and slept top and tail. That´s what love means. Sacrifice and put the

beloved´s well-being and peace of mind above our own.

I don´t know if I´m expressing myself very well here, I always tend to

digress. My point is that whatever happened that night, it was the most

meaningful, the most wondrous sharing Ste and Jamie ever imagined possible.

The look of peace and contentment on their moonlit faces during the night is

revealing enough. They did what was necessary, what they needed to do,

desperately. The way they cling to each other even in their sleep, how they

seek the other´s contact gives us an idea how both of them needed it. I

won´t ever believe they 'fooled around' before 'romancing' in the forest. To

me, they were courting each other from the first scene. They were

(spiritual) lovers from the first moment they looked at each other with that

special look of longing and shyness.

What we see in the forest is the explosion of joy and happiness of an

established couple. Before that, they were scared, apprehensive of showing

the love they felt for one another. Wondering what the other would think if

they showed their unrestrained passions. In the forest they reveal

themselves as they are. They can love the other the way they always wanted

to, passionately, tenderly, openly, freely. That´s what I find so delightful

in the way Ste looks and smiles at Jamie between kisses. It´s as if he was

thinking: "I can love you, Jamie! I can show my love for you and it´s great.

It´s perfect!!"

 

To me, they courted each other first and they loved each other later, as any

other couple. In an infinitely more romantic fashion, if you ask me.

 

Take care.

 

Sandra.

 

--

**************************************************************

From: Kent

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:07:09 -0400

Subject: An Open Letter to Mike and Sandra

Dear Mike and Sandra,

Having just had the marvelous experience of reading your recent

back-to-back posts to the list, I had to let you know how I feel.

Mike, I am in awe of your understanding of relationships, and of

personhood. I think your thoughtful (by which I mean both "well

thought-out" and "thought-filled") posting covers so much ground in such

depth and breadth, yet so compactly! It is yet another of your postings

which I look on as a definite "keeper".

Sandra, whenever you share from your profound understanding of

Beautiful Thing, I am carried away by your words to a level of

comprehension far greater than *anything* I could arrive at on my own.

I learn to love the movie in many new and unexpected ways, which makes

watching it an always fresh (and freshly-enriching) experience.

To you both, I want to say: "Thank You"! Although I will never be

able to express myself with the clarity and elegance of your writings,

in my own way, I want you to know how much your taking the time to share

your thoughts-- about relationships, both in general and in Beautiful

Thing-- means to me.

Kent

--

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:10:01 -0700

From: Steve

Subject: I'm new!

Hi Gang! I'm new to the mailing list and want to say Hello! I do have a

question for all you BT experts. What does Leah say to Tony when she's

pushing her cousin's kid in the stroller? I got everything up to where

Leah say's something like "If I got pregnant, I'd get rid of it right

away"....That's where I loose it. I know she's talking about Sandra

having an abortion (BTW, did she have a miscarrage or abortion?) but I

want to know the exact words Leah uses. You can either write me

personally or to the list. Thanks!

Cheers,

Steve in Michigan USA

--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:36:33 -0400

From: Keith

Subject: Re: Observation

 

 

>>> <painter 10/22/97 02:28PM >>>

>First, in regards to BT, one of the things I respond to in the film is that

>it shows two young guys falling in love in a positive light. It's not much

>more traumatic for them than it would be for any teenage couple. There is,

>of course, the added burden of having to deal with the 'coming out' issue

>which straight teenagers don't have to face. But, in the end, love wins

>out. So many gay themed films end up with trauma or tragedy of one sort or

>another. It is refreshing to see a film where that DOESN'T happen. I'll go

>a bit further... I think one of the problems we have is not having POSITIVE

>role modeling in the media around us. We have no idea how damaging this is

>to our own sense of self and community. I run into evidences of this all

>the time. Many gay youth have a difficult time accepting their sexuality in

>part because they don't have 'reflections' around them which they can

>relate to and accept. This is just one of the beautiful things about

>Beautiful Thing; it provides that kind of social self-reflection.

Mike,

As always, you put it beautifully... Just a quick follow-on to what you said

above. The lack of positive role models is a big problem. I think this is

why pornography, and dangerous sex is so common among the gay community in

particular. Most young gay people have nowhere to turn for information, etc.

on gay sex and relationships (unlike their straight counterparts) Therefore

they turn to the only outlet they have heard of , and have ready access to -

pornography (often on the internet) or random sex encounters in bars and

alleys. (I don't want to sound like a prude here; erotic material, etc., does

have its place, but it is no substitute for a relationship) Agreeing with

what Sandra said, these stereotypes are often reflected in the movies as well

(even if they mean it to be positive). This image is what the "straight"

world sees, too, so the perception that the gay community consists of

back-alley sex and smut is further strengthened, and the process spirals on.

Hopefully as awareness of the gay community increases in a positive light,

more positive role models will be visible. That way, young people can not

only find people to identify with, but also can be proud, and unashamed to

identify with these people. These role models need to be popular among the

straight population, as well. This shows that being gay/straight shouldn't

matter. Rather than separate people into separate groups of "gay" and

"straight", why not have everyone part of a common culture, where gay and

straight people can, if they choose to, feel free to mingle with each other

and not have to go to a gay-themed event?

As an example of this process, I think it partially accounts for the

popularity of the new magazine XY among gay youth. It contains all the flashy

ads, and new clothing, music, etc., much like GQ or similar magazines, but is

also clearly gay themed. Young people can read this, and see that gay people

are as much a part of pop mainstream culture as straight people.

One other (unrelated) comment to something Sandra send in her post. It never

occurred to me the significance of the scene with Jamie and Ste in the park

together at night. Yes, it they are showing their love in the "open", but

just how "open" is a dark park at night? It could have just as easily been a

back street on the way home from the Gloucester, and yet by choosing a "public

park" there is a innocence and positiveness revealed that would not have been

felt on a dark street, etc. I get the feeling the park is every bit as

private and intimate as Jamie's room, yet it is also open to all, where Jamie

and Ste can show their love to all the stars in the sky, and the whole

universe above. To me, that is truly beautiful. I feel this moment in the

park before God gave Jamie and Ste the strength and resolve necessary to show

there love before the more common eyes of mere mankind in the plaza later on.

Love ya all,

Keith

--

**************************************************************

From: Jeff

Subject: Re: I'm new!

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:44:16 -0500

Welcome to world of love and laughter, baby!

Wif the help of the screenplay, here's what Leah says:

"Yeah, well, at least if I did get pregnant, I wouldn't get rid of it like

some slappers I could mention."

and then:

"Yeah, well, you're wif the black hole o'Thamesmead love, not me."

By the way, some of us walked down that street!

Hope you enjoy the list. Whether it be the philosophical discussions from

Sandra of Spain and Mike of San Francisco or the interpretation of the souf

London dialect, you'll find it all here.

Jeff W.

-----Original Message-----

From: Steve

Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 2:28 p.m.

Subject: I'm new!

 

 

>Hi Gang! I'm new to the mailing list and want to say Hello! I do have a

>question for all you BT experts. What does Leah say to Tony when she's

>pushing her cousin's kid in the stroller? I got everything up to where

>Leah say's something like "If I got pregnant, I'd get rid of it right

>away"....That's where I loose it. I know she's talking about Sandra

>having an abortion (BTW, did she have a miscarrage or abortion?) but I

>want to know the exact words Leah uses. You can either write me

>personally or to the list. Thanks!

>

>Cheers,

>Steve in Michigan USA

>

>--

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:03:17 -0400 (EDT)

From: Eric

Subject: Re: I'm new!

Hi,

Without looking up the exact quote (hey! I'm at work!) Leah says, "If I

were pregnant, I wouldn't get rid of it like some slappers I could mention."

When Sandra later hits Leah over the head at the party, Sandra says: "I

lost that baby, you venomous little cow..." So we can assume she had a

miscarriage, not an abortion, as Leah indicated to Tony.

I'm sure someone will look up the exact quote if you like. (Or I will if

you email me.)

-Eric

 

At 11:10 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Gang! I'm new to the mailing list and want to say Hello! I do have a

>question for all you BT experts. What does Leah say to Tony when she's

>pushing her cousin's kid in the stroller? I got everything up to where

>Leah say's something like "If I got pregnant, I'd get rid of it right

>away"....That's where I loose it. I know she's talking about Sandra

>having an abortion (BTW, did she have a miscarrage or abortion?) but I

>want to know the exact words Leah uses. You can either write me

>personally or to the list. Thanks!

>

>Cheers,

>Steve in Michigan USA

>

>--

--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:43:54 -0800

From: painter

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Mike and Sandra

Kent,

Thanks for your reply. I'm never sure, given the focus of this forum, if

posts like the one I made are out of line or not. I'm glad I wrote it, I

got a lot out of doing so, and I'm doubly glad you (and apparently others)

got something out of it as well.

Speaking of role models, one of the things gay youth don't get to see much,

is positive images of 'older' gays. Don't misunderstand, despite my going

on 50 I don't consider myself old; although when I was in my 20s, anyone

over 30 looked 'old' to me. As a young man I actually dreaded the thought

of getting older. 'Oh, god, I'm going to loose my hair, get fat with

wrinkles and hair growing out of my nose and nobody will love me...' (or

something like that).

Well, first off, I don't 'feel' old, (whatever that means). When I look out

at the world I feel myself to be, oh I'd say about 35 or so. When I see

myself in the mirror it is often quite a shock. But you know what? I

actually like the way I look better now than I did when I was younger.

Another surprise, other men still find me attractive!! In fact -- despite

the fact I'm bald, with some wrinkles, 'love handles', and with

embarrassing hair growing out of orifices -- I'd say they find me more

attractive now than when I was younger. I think this has as much to do with

'presence' as anything else. I keep myself fit enough but I'm hardly a gym

bunny. No, it isn't that. It's more the 'I know who I am' thing; more about

accepting myself and liking myself the way I am. -- Believe me, it's taken

YEARS to get to this point!

That I'm in a new, loving, erotic, sensual, spiritual relationship helps,

too. ;-)

So, to all you youngn's out there, hey the best is yet to come! You ain't

seen nothing yet. One of these days you're gonna look back and think,

whew!, I'm SO glad those younger years are over. (This is usually

accompanied by something like a, 'if only I'd known then what I know now'

kinda feeling -- but of course no one can ever tell you when you're young

what it is you're gonna wish you'd known.)

Anyway, Beautiful Thing is about love -- and you don't have to be young and

cute to find it. I'm living proof of that. That's all I'm trying to say.

Love is about BEING HERE and being open and letting those wonderful life

juices flow (I'm talking about energies, in case you're wondering, with

nothing being excluded :-> ). Yeah, sure, you're gonna 'fall down go boom'

from time to time. You can't learn any other way. Remember, if you're gonna

love another person, you have to love yourself -- which is not the same

thing as being 'stuck' on yourself -- first. Then you CAN, as Sandra put

it, "Sacrifice and put the beloved´s well-being and peace of mind above our

own." Thank God for Jonathan Harvey and everyone who made BT possible;

they're helping rectify a long overdue misunderstanding of what it means to

be 'gay'.

Thanks again,

M>

>Dear Mike and Sandra,

>

> Having just had the marvelous experience of reading your recent

>back-to-back posts to the list, I had to let you know how I feel.

>

> Mike, I am in awe of your understanding of relationships, and of

>personhood. I think your thoughtful (by which I mean both "well

>thought-out" and "thought-filled") posting covers so much ground in such

>depth and breadth, yet so compactly! It is yet another of your postings

>which I look on as a definite "keeper".

>

> Sandra, whenever you share from your profound understanding of

>Beautiful Thing, I am carried away by your words to a level of

>comprehension far greater than *anything* I could arrive at on my own.

>I learn to love the movie in many new and unexpected ways, which makes

>watching it an always fresh (and freshly-enriching) experience.

>

> To you both, I want to say: "Thank You"! Although I will never be

>able to express myself with the clarity and elegance of your writings,

>in my own way, I want you to know how much your taking the time to share

>your thoughts-- about relationships, both in general and in Beautiful

>Thing-- means to me.

>

>Kent

>

 

 

Mike

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:56:09 -0800

From: painter

Subject: Re: Observation (2)

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997

Keith wrote:

>>

>>Hopefully as awareness of the gay community increases in a positive

>>light, more positive role models will be visible. That way, young people

>>can not only find people to identify with, but also can be proud, and

>>unashamed to identify with these people. These role models need to be

>>popular among the straight population, as well. This shows that being

>>gay/straight shouldn't matter. Rather than separate people into separate

>>groups of "gay" and "straight", why not have everyone part of a common

>>culture, where gay and straight people can, if they choose to, feel free

>>to mingle with each other and not have to go to a gay-themed event?

>>

>>As an example of this process, I think it partially accounts for the

>>popularity of the new magazine XY among gay youth. It contains all the

>>flashy ads, and new clothing, music, etc., much like GQ or similar

>>magazines, but is also clearly gay themed. Young people can read this,

>>and see that gay people are as much a part of pop mainstream culture as

>>straight people.

Keith, I couldn't agree with you more. Even as a kid growing up (before I

knew the word 'gay' but after I knew I was attracted to other boys) I just

couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. I still can't. What

possible difference could it make who any of us like to make love with? I

use the word 'gay' to describe myself but I'm not more comfortable with

that than I am 'homosexual' really. I'm *not* 'gay'; I'm just ME. There IS

something unique about being a same-sex oriented person (I believe that's

true) but 'gay' -- that's another thing. 'Gay' is an invention of our

culture at this time in it's history and, hopefully, we will eventually

grow beyond the need for words that seperate us artificially. (Native

Americans use the phrase 'two spirit people' and I like that better than

'gay' precisely because it doesn't conjure any specific associations in the

mind.)

I like XY, too. Cute guys, my goodness! But the issue on Love was very special.

Thanks,

M>

 

 

 

Mike

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:27:48 +0100

From: jmcs

Subject: Re: I'm new!

At 23:10 22/10/97 -0700, Steve wrote:

>Hi Gang! I'm new to the mailing list and want to say Hello! I do have a

>question for all you BT experts. What does Leah say to Tony when she's

>pushing her cousin's kid in the stroller? I got everything up to where

>Leah say's something like "If I got pregnant, I'd get rid of it right

>away"....That's where I loose it. I know she's talking about Sandra

>having an abortion (BTW, did she have a miscarrage or abortion?) but I

>want to know the exact words Leah uses. You can either write me

>personally or to the list. Thanks!

>

>Cheers,

>Steve in Michigan USA

 

Hello Steve!!!

Welcome to the list!!

 

Leah´s words are exactly the same ones Eric just wrote: "Yeah, well, at

least if I did get pregnant I wouldn´t get rid of it like some slappers I

could mention."

 

Take care.

 

Sandra.

 

 

--

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:31:17 -0400

From: ep

Subject: Web updates

Hiya,

I just updated my BT webpages. The biggest change is a new server! Update

your bookmarks to:

There is a link from the old site.

The changes for today are all on the pix page.... I have added pictures of

some more foreign posters, and more video covers from the UK (since there

are now 3 UK video packages). Check 'em out!

Enjoy,

Eric

PS: Unfortunately the links I have to the Sony and Movienet sites are no

longer valid, as those sites no longer exist! I haven't removed the links,

as I'm hoping they will come back. I wrote to Sony and asked them to put it

back!

--

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:59:11 -0500

From: Gary

Subject: Mamas and Papas in R&R Hall of Fame

Here's a BT musical "note" from the news today. The Rock and Roll

Hall of Fame (located, unfortunately in Cleveland, Ohio, and not in

Memphis, TN, where it really belongs) announced the 1998 inductees into

the Hall.

Among the list: the Mamas and the Papas.

I'm sure Leah would be delighted. <G>

Gary

--

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:06:08 +0100

From: jmcs

Subject: To Keith and Mike

At 10:36 23/10/97 -0400, Keith wrote:

>These role models need to be popular among the straight population, as

well. This >shows that being gay/straight shouldn't matter. Rather than

separate people into >separate groups of "gay" and "straight", why not have

everyone part of a common >culture, where gay and straight people can, if

they choose to, feel free to mingle with >each other and not have to go to a

gay-themed event?

 

 

First of all, I wanted to thank Mike for his incredibly beautiful post. As

everything he writes, there´s a wisdom and a depth of feeling I could never

achieve. I write from my, believe me, absolutely inexperienced point of

view. But I always write in all honesty, what my feelings tell me it´s the

right thing, and one´s heart is always right. Well, most of the time. Mike,

your immense wisdom is a beacon to me and a constant reminder that we

slightly younger people aren´t all-knowing and that despite how many things

we´ve learnt in our life we´re just mere newcomers. My mother´s always

telling me there´s nothing like the old horse for the hard road. And the

more I mature (very slowly, let me tell you) the more I agree with her.

Again, thank you, Mike.

 

Keith, I couldn´t agree with you more. We´re all people, period. We´re all

together in this terrible, wonderful, terrifying and unique world and the

closer we get to each other the less lonely we will feel. The only thing we

need to understand each other is to have an open mind, a willingness to

listen and goodwill to share each other´s problems. That´s all, an open

heart. We all share the same problems, we all are alone, we all are scared.

All of us need someone or something, we all NEED. Then, we are we always

raising barriers, creating parcels and walls that separate us from the rest?

Why are we so petty? All we need is ask and understand to feel closer to

each other. Knowledge is the only answer to overcome our fear. Walls are not

the solution: Black/White, Men/Women, Liberals/Conservatives,

Gay/Straight... Bullshit! and excuse my language.

 

You know, almost ten years ago my whole family gathered to celebrate

someone´s birthday or something. During the after-dinner chat the subject of

the conversation was how kids always manage to embarrass adults in public.

Since I was the only adolescent in the room, I had a bad feeling about it. A

*very* bad feeling. I was right. Eventually, *I* became the subject of the

conversation. After several minutes I was deep in thought deciding who would

become my first victim of murder: my father, my aunt, my uncle... it was a

very hard decision. My mother noticed I was having a hard time watching my

whole family telling embarrassing stories about me, so when she had the

chance she told something that happened when I was 5 years old or so. It´s a

shame I can´t remember because it would be one of my fondest memories.

It was around 1978 and I was walking about with my mother one morning.

Suddenly, I stopped. My mother pulled my hand but I was petrified in the

middle of the sidewalk watching something. My mother followed my gaze and

she saw what had drawn my individed attention: Two men were kissing a few

meters away from us. My mother, embarrassed that I was looking at them so

shamelessly, tried to drag me along, but I seemed to be glued to the ground.

Knowing that I was puzzled by what I was watching, she squatted next to me

and she asked: "Do you want to ask me something?" And I said: "Mami, why are

those two men kissing like this?" My mother smiled and said: "Because they

are in love". "In love?", I asked. And she smiled again. "Yes, just like

daddy and me". Expecting that I would be satisfied, she tried to make me

walk, with no use. In the meantime, the two men finally noticed they were

being watched and when they saw it was a little girl, they stopped kissing

and looked at us *very* embarrassed. My mother said those few seconds were

the most embarrassing ones in her entire life. She wanted to die on the

spot. But then, I just looked at them and suddenly, I smiled. You know, that

big, bright and innocent smile kids have. The two men barely gathered

themselves and they smiled back. I took my mum´s hand and (finally) I

started walking again.

Since that day, I´ve looked upon same-sex pairings as as normal and right as

any man-woman pairing. And I must thank my mother for it. Her words were the

right ones. The best words possible. All I needed was an explanation to

understand. We spend our whole lives learning and understanding new things.

Knowledge is our only hope. That and tolerance. Be patient with other

people´s mistakes and with our own. It´s not easy. It never is. But at

least, it´s a beginning.

 

Take care.

 

Sandra.

--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:49:34 +1100

From: Andrew

Subject: The First Time

I was watching an episode of Deep Space Nine yesterday when a line of

dialog grabbed my attention.

"I savoured those stories. I read them slowly, one each day and when I was

done I wished that I hadn't read them at all - so I could read them again

like it was the first time"

What immediately came to mind when I heard this was the first time I

watched Beautiful Thing, not knowing how the story line would develop, and

hoping for a nice ending (which did happen but in an unexpected way). I sat

back and took it all in, this feeling of being a virginal viewer.

When the film reached it's ending, although I was filled with a happy and

joyous feeling, I was confused by the fact that this story may not over. I

wanted to see it again, like the first time, but with a different ending.

But that was not to be.

The next line of dialog ..."There is only one first time, isn't there. And

only one last time too..."

Cheers,

Andy.

PS.For those who wonder too much, the DS9 episode title was "The Visitor".

--

**************************************************************

From: Kent

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:39:05 -0500

Subject: Questions for the B.T.B.T.

Hi Friends!

(Oh, BTW, that acronym stands for "Beautiful Thing Brain Trust",

meaning all of *you*, of course!!)

While checking out the latest update on Eric's site at

, I was struck by the photo showing Glen in an

orange-ish shirt, with his arm on Scott's shoulder (Scott is wearing a

shirt of a fuschia-kinda color). Since Scott's hair is noticeably

longer than in the movie, Eric and I concluded (um, this was on IRC) the

picture was taken after the movie was filmed. My questions are: does

anyone know any specifics of this picture? Like: when *was* it taken?

Were all the cast members together for a single photo shoot? Are there

any other shots from that same photo session?

I realize my questions (now and in other posts) have asked for the

kind of "inside information" which most of us casual (if rabid! :-))

fans would not have access to. But, I am hopin' there may be *somebody*

out there with an inside track to some information they would be willing

to share!

In a similar vein, can anyone tell us what the (hopefully "working")

actors from the movie have been doing since BT was filmed? (The only

thing that comes to my mind is the Prime Suspect episode, and I don't

recall if that was made before or after BT.) Andre referred to Glen

being busy shooting a movie, does anyone know anything about it? Or

anything more about the film Ben was making? As it has been a good

while since BT was filmed, it would seem a number of jobs might have

been obtained by any of the stars-- or maybe the younger cast is still

in school!?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

Kent

glad to be on this list!

P.S. fyi, David  and I have sent a general email to everyone who

signed Davie's Guestbook after July 31, 1997, to inform them how to join

this maillist, access the Newsgroup, and get on the BT channel (even

though those last two are obtainable on-"Site", as it were!) This

resulted in about 40-50 messages-- you see, I was trying to enlarge the

Trust's Endowment! :-)

--

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:39:43 -0800

From: painter

Subject: Re: The First Time

Andrew wrote:

<snip>

>"There is only one first time, isn't there. And

>only one last time too..."

Beautiful Thing has many different 'endings'; we've even discussed some of

them here on this list over the months. Clearly the "end' was only the

beginning...

And the same can be applied to our own lives, our own 'Beautiful Things'.

Everyday is another chapter in the ongoing story of how we live our lives,

what we learn about ourselves and others. How we can grow to become more

'human' -- and what that means.

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

**************************************************************