From: "Kent ."

Subject: Our Growing Mail List (yay!)

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:55:42 PST

On Wednesday, Nov 19, 1997, Chris  wrote:

>I am currently "employed" as a Service Engineer for a computer company

>called ADM in Canterbury.

And on Thursday, Nov 20, 1997, Ben  wrote:

>I'm a student at the university of Kent in Canterbury. I've been out

>for 6 weeks and I feel so lonely. :(

Err, if you don't know each other already... Chris, meet Ben; Ben,

meet Chris! (Canterbury can't be all *that* big, right?)

I am glad for all the new and most welcome new names posting to the

list! BT is a catalyst for so many things in all of us-- a bulwark

against loneliness not least among them! (Someone get Ben a copy of

the movie, and *quick*! :-))

Re: Sandra's idea, I thought I could choose my "mosts", but now that

I've seen what has been suggested, I can't make up my mind; although

I

kinda favor "He's good to me" as most poignant line (if that can be

considered a "moment"), as it was said with such bald emotion.

Eric, please continue informing us of the updates to your excellent and

very well-done Web Site.

Mike, I agree with 'most everything you wrote to Ben. I am sure our

individual coming out experiences, while each unique in their own ways

(for one, they happened to us and us alone) had some parallels which

may

well apply to others. In my case, your statement regarding siblings

needing the opportunity to get the Big News off their chests (and not

necessarily revealing the Secret out of maliciousness or anger), and

*tell* the parents is exactly what happened to me. My elder brother

told my parents in person; he only informed me in a letter, which I

of

course received days after the event. Needless to say, I called home

right away! My mother, at least, *had* to have had suspicions; by

the time I was (very nervously, let me tell you) able to talk to them

about it, they had had the time for it to "sink in". In the case of

my

most wonderful parents, they were both totally accepting and supportive.

 

I distinctly remember my mother said, to the effect: "Why, did you

think we wouldn't love you any more?" And, more surprisingly to me at

the time, she said my father's only reaction had been: "As long as

he's

happy." Talk about having the best possible resolution imaginable--

was I ever Blessed!

Kent

**************************************************************

From: bjw

Subject: Re: Our Growing Mail List (yay!)

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:58:29 +0000 (GMT)

 

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:49:48 PST "Kent ."  wrote:

> On Wednesday, Nov 19, 1997, Chris  wrote:

>

> >I am currently "employed" as a Service Engineer for a computer company

> >called ADM in Canterbury.

>

> And on Thursday, Nov 20, 1997, Ben  wrote:

>

> >I'm a student at the university of Kent in Canterbury. I've been out

> >for 6 weeks and I feel so lonely. :(

>

> Err, if you don't know each other already... Chris, meet Ben; Ben,

> meet Chris! (Canterbury can't be all *that* big, right?)

Wow! Small world! Err Chris, Hi! This is a little weird for me. Chris

can you mail me personally please? I'd like to get to know people in

Canterbury who are gay, OTHER than those here at uni.

Speak to you soon!

Ben. xx

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:06:20 +1100

From: Andrew

Subject: The bits we don't get to see

Hi everyone,

In a recent private message from Kent:

(commenting about basic video editing techniques on my web page)

> 20 to 1, filmed to shown, eh? Makes me want to

>*kill* to ever see the edited-out parts of BT, how 'bout you? :)

>

Yes, I wonder what Channel 4 did with those off cuts. Obviously, there

were

many takes on some scenes, in fact it's standard practice to always do

more

than one take of a scene, now matter how good the first one was. I'd love

to see the earlier takes, particularly the ones where the actors fluff

their lines and the scene in the bedroom where Jamie and Ste first kiss. I

betcha one of them got the giggles!! I'd also wonder how a "Director's

Cut"

of BT would differ from what we've seen. I know they are a bit in vogue at

the moment.

 

(Just thought you'll like to share that).

Andy.

**************************************************************

From: "Chris

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:42:34 +0000

Subject: Membership Numbers

Just to let you all know that there are 42 people on the mailing

list.

 

--

Chris

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:22:57 -0800

From: painter

Subject: Re: Our Growing Mail List (yay!)

Kent,

You are *very* fortunate to have a supportive family -- and you are right,

every coming out experience is unique. My 'coming out' to myself began

when

I was still very little. I began having homosexual experiences even before

I was a teenager. So this was long before 'Stonewall' and the social

consciousness of gay issues that followed in its wake. At that time I

'knew' (in my feelings) that there was nothing 'wrong' with my sexual

interests and experiences. But it was also vividly clear that not everyone

felt as I did. It was both confusing and frightening, actually. The older

I

became, the more confused and frightened I felt about exposing my desires.

This doesn't mean it didn't happen, only that it always happened with an

edge of fear. Fear of disclosure, fear of betrayal, fear of denial, fear

of

physical assault or reprisal.

How many of you have seen the movie Maurice?? It was released in 1986 (I

think) and I just recently saw it for the second time on video. It is a

very powerful film that explores these issues among British gentry at the

turn of this century. I recommend it highly (it has a positive ending, to

boot).

Worst of all, from my own experience, is that my belief that there was

nothing 'wrong' with me or my desires was eventually eroded. I blame

Freudian psychology for a lot of this. By that I mean it wasn't until the

1970s that 'homosexuality' was reconsidered as something other than a

pathological symptom. Societal pressures had pretty much convinced even me

that there was something 'wrong' with *me*; that my desires were a

'symptom' of some underlying inner conflict that, perhaps, if ferreted out

and corrected, would render me into a nice heterosexual boy. The

unfortunate thing is I *believed* this about myself, bought it hook line

and sinker and, consequently, suffered low self-esteem for many many

years.

Coming out to *my* family under those conditions was completely out of the

question.

The upshot of that, for me, was a dividing line that cut across my

familial

life like a razor. I could not under any circumstances be completely

myself

with them. Add to this the vast generational differences between those of

us who came of age in the late 60s (with all its social turmoil) and *my*

parents who'd been born in the early 1900s. Even if I'd been straight,

these generational and social differences would have divided me irrevocably

from my parents. With the sexuality it was beyond hopeless and I knew it.

This was very painful to me. In a very real sense of the word, I had to

*grow up* on my own.

Eventually, at age 25, I began building my own *family* of friends and

confidants (many of them misfits like myself) which continues to be my

source of support today. With this support, I turned to the work I *could*

do--learning to regain my own sense of self-awareness, self-esteem and

self

respect. This work continues even today. If I could have had it *my* way,

I

would rather have had a family like yours. This is not to say it will be

*easier* for you; but it is always good to know that at a certain level

the

foundation for a whole person is already there -- that there is a love

which is unconditional. It has taken me a long time to learn this lesson

and manifest it in my relationships. It was worth it though :-)

Love,

Mike

 

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:49:48 PST

"Kent ."  wrote:

>Mike, I agree with 'most everything you wrote to Ben. I am sure our

>individual coming out experiences, while each unique in their own ways

>(for one, they happened to us and us alone) had some parallels which may

>well apply to others. In my case, your statement regarding siblings

>needing the opportunity to get the Big News off their chests (and not

>necessarily revealing the Secret out of maliciousness or anger), and

>*tell* the parents is exactly what happened to me. My elder brother

>told my parents in person; he only informed me in a letter, which I of

>course received days after the event. Needless to say, I called home

>right away! My mother, at least, *had* to have had suspicions; by

>the time I was (very nervously, let me tell you) able to talk to them

>about it, they had had the time for it to "sink in". In the case of my

>most wonderful parents, they were both totally accepting and supportive.

>I distinctly remember my mother said, to the effect: "Why, did you

>think we wouldn't love you any more?" And, more surprisingly to me at

>the time, she said my father's only reaction had been: "As long as he's

>happy." Talk about having the best possible resolution imaginable--

>was I ever Blessed!

>

>Kent

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:09:16 -0500 (EST)

From: DC

Subject: Re: A few questions to shake you up!!!

In a message dated 97-11-20 01:47:46 EST, you write:

My response to the questions:

 

1.- The saddest moment in BT?

Probably Ste's crying by the lake.

2.- The most poignant moment in BT?

When Ste tell Jamie, "Get your fucking queer hands off of me." The pain

of

that moment is so palpable, and Jamie is so brave. I think Ste's

reflection

on the bridge makes the moment even more poignant because it seems clear

that

he knows he cares for Jamie and regrets what he said.

3.- The tenderest moment in BT?

I think it's a tie between Jamie taking Ste's hand after they've come out

to

Sandra and Sandra's holding Jamie and saying "I'm not going to put you

like

an empty bottle."

4.- The happiest moment in BT?

The kiss in the woods, and Jamie's look holding Ste in the dance scene.

5.- The sexiest moment in BT?

The kiss in the woods, of course!!

6.- "THE" moment in BT?

 

"Dance with me."

>>

Dirk

**************************************************************

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:09:23 -0500 (EST)

From: DC

Subject: Re: Introductions

I've lurked long enough (due to intense class schedules more than anything

else), so I want to finally say "Hello."

I am a seminarian in New York City, preparing for ordination in the

Episcopal

Church (sister church of the Church of England). I saw BT for the first

time

last summer and was transfixed by it because it reminded me so much of the

openess and love that my late partner and I shared before his death in

'92.

In fact, our relationship was such that, even in a conservative parish,

my

rector referred to our relationship as "an enduring witness of Christian

love." It is because of the love we shared and our openess that I found

the

courage to enter the process for ordination in a Church that is so

ambivalent

about the role of its gay members. Somewhere along the way, I lost some

of

that courage and BT helped me to reclaim it. My second partner and I are

finding that only in full honesty and self-respect can we be the people,

and

the couple, God calls us to be.

I showed the film to our LesBiGay Caucus at the seminary, and they all

loved

it, as well. And I can't tell you how it has touched the loves of some of

my

closest friends! Anyway, I've enjoyed watching that chatter on the 'net

and

the thoughts it has provoked. Thank you to all of you who have put forth

the

energy to keep it going!

Peace,

Dirk

**************************************************************

From: bjw

Subject: home page address.

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:12:22 +0000 (GMT)

Hello!

I have a homepage!!!!!! COOL! Check it out if you want but remember

it's still under construction! :)

 

Speak to you soon!!

Ben. xxxxx

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:51:58 +0100

From: jmcs

Subject: Re: Introductions

Hi everybody!

 

Dirk, welcome to the list!! The place of the greatest people in the

galaxy!!

BTW, it has been great to wake up and find 12 messages, all of them from

the

list!! Ahhhh, the good old days!! I had almost forgotten the joy of so

many

posts. So many beautiful things... (pun intended!)

 

I have nothing to say, for a change. Just that IB4m very happy to be a

part

of this list. (And that if I ever come up with another of my ideas,

youB4ll

be the next to know!!) ;)

 

Eric, your site is getting better and better every day!!!

 

Take care of yourselves.

 

Sandra.

**************************************************************

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:30:06 -0800 (PST)

From: Rich

Subject: Introductions

 

Hi, I have enjoyed reading the postings here for the past week or

so.

It looks like a great group.

My name is Rich and I'm a television newswriter at CNN in Atlanta,

Georgia.

Although I'm a writer by profession, I find it difficult to put

into words just how I've been affected by B-T. But I can say it has

changed my life and the way I look at it.

When I first saw the film at a local art theater, I was

overwhelmed emotionally. I was raised in the deep south in the 1950's

by strict Christian parents. I learned by listening to them and to

other grownups that my attraction to boys was wrong, wrong, wrong in

the eyes of my church and almost everyone I knew.

It was something to be feared and overcome. And I learned to hate

myself for it.

But as we all know, our gay feelings just won't go away. And

finally, many years after I became an adult, I accepted myself.

B-T let me revive all those sweet, secret, emotions I had

suppressed as a youth -- and let me enjoy -- through watching Jamie

and Ste -- that thrill of discovery and the pure joy of being with

someone you love. And it affects me that way everytime I see it.

My lover says I'm a fanatic -- so be it. B-T never ceases to

interest me, and it never fails to make me happy.

It's great to find a group of people who share my feelings.

Thanks to Chris  for getting us together.

As Mama Cass put it...

3D3D3D

"It may be rough going...

Just to do your thing 's the hardest thing to do.

But you gotta make your own kind of music...

Sing your own special song.

Make your own kind of music...

Even if nobody else sings along."

You can't be a Real Country unless you have a BEER and

an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team,

or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER.

--Frank Zappa

**************************************************************

From: bjw

Subject: Hello everyone!

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:49:49 +0000 (GMT)

Hello,

 

I finally met our leader (Chris ) tonight!

He was very nice and not at all like I imagined him! (That's in a good

way!) It's nice to have a new friend to talk to. :)

Hopefully I can meet a few more of you in the future! :)

 

Speak to you soon!!

Ben. xxxxx

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:05:45 -0500

From: Keith

Subject: Re: Introductions

Rich,

A big Welcome to the list! This truly is a one-of-a-kind bunch of guys

(and gals). They are the first group of people I've found that I can

really share my feeling with. BT is a really special film, but it is even

more special when I consider all the discussion that we've been having on

it ever since...

BTW, in response to Sandra's earlier challenge, here's my two cents worth:

1. Saddest moment - Definitely Ste by himself on the pond's edge, crying.

Being gay in a straight world has taught me what it's like to be lonely

and feel unwanted. I don't want anyone else to have to feel that kind of

pain. To have family abuse on top of it, makes it even more sad. Not

having a complete, loving family is so painful. I think I especially feel

Ste's sadness because I know how he is really a nice guy in the movie, and

has a strong, silent, but sensitive side that the his home life has all

but extinguished. I think the scene is sad for these two reasons - the

outward hurt from abuse/lack of love, and the inner hurt of the fear of

being "different" and an outcast.

2. Poignant moment - no particular moment in time in the movie, rather

the little, furtive, longing looks Jamie and Ste give each other throughout

the movie. Ste's glimpse at Jamie when Jamie is being picked on on the

football field, Ste's look at Jamie when getting his ball back, Jamie's

"I'm happy when I'm with you", etc. The deeper feeling this adds to the

movie is part of what makes BT so special. It

adds emotion and depth to every scene - hoping you'll see another glance,

knowing what is going through each character's mind.

3. Tenderest moment - when Jamie asks if he can touch Ste. My guess is

prior to this, no one has asked permission to touch Ste. His family

takes him for granted, abusing his body like they owned it. But here,

Jamie is putting Ste's feeling first, not taking him for granted. To me,

that is as tender as it gets.

4. Happiest moment - Romp in the park. Maybe it's the beers in them,

maybe it's the privacy of darkness, whatever, but here Jamie and Ste are

only concerned about each other's happiness. Pure,

total joy (presence, Mike?)

5. Sexiest moment - Same as #4, but specifically, "The Kiss" Not only

are they in love, but they are really showing it physically.

6. "The Moment" - the dance at the end. It is the culmination of what

everything in the movie has led up to. Jamie and Ste's commitment is out

for everyone to see, yet they don't care. They are

saying "You are all that matters to me right now" to each other. It is

also when you are so proud of something that you want the entire world to

see it, as they are of their love for each other. If I could only see

that moment of the movie again, I would be content.

Keith

P.S. I watched Lie Down With Dogs last night - Beautiful Thing it was

not!!!

**************************************************************

From: "Jeff

Subject: Chris  Fan Club

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:14:03 -0600

>I finally met our leader (Chris ) tonight! >

So, Ben, you've entered the elite band of BT'ers. You've actually *met*

Chris! Really, we like to think of this as a rudderless ship. Or a

kitchen

with many chefs. Chris is but one of our fearless guides. Now you just

have to meet Andre (one up on you there).

>He was very nice and not at all like I imagined him! (That's in a good

way!)

Well, I found him the same way. A nerdy computer geek, except with a cute

British accent, right? But you're used to that! We Americans aren't.

>Hopefully I can meet a few more of you in the future! :) >

Anyone game for another BT meeting? My bills will be paid off sometime

next

year. Maybe a second anniversary meeting in June or October?

Jeff

**************************************************************

From: "Chris

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:02:48 +0000

Subject: Re: Chris  Fan Club

Priority: normal

> >I finally met our leader (Chris ) tonight! >

>

> So, Ben, you've entered the elite band of BT'ers. You've actually *met*

> Chris! Really, we like to think of this as a rudderless ship. Or a

kitchen

> with many chefs. Chris is but one of our fearless guides. Now you just

> have to meet Andre (one up on you there).

What are you drinking Jeff?

Elite band? Rudderless ship? I think you're going mad ;-)

>

> >He was very nice and not at all like I imagined him! (That's in a good

> way!)

>

> Well, I found him the same way. A nerdy computer geek, except with a

cute

> British accent, right? But you're used to that! We Americans aren't.

Right thats it, bloody american poofs always taking liberties! Pah!

*joke* (for the humour impaired and americans umongst us) 3D)

>

> >Hopefully I can meet a few more of you in the future! :) >

>

> Anyone game for another BT meeting? My bills will be paid off sometime

next

> year. Maybe a second anniversary meeting in June or October?

I think there is aplan in the offing for a meet in june. The weather

is better that time of year (hopefully)

>

--

Chris

**************************************************************

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:40:55 -0600

From: Gary

Subject: Re: Introductions

Rich  wrote:

> Hi, I have enjoyed reading the postings here for the past week or

> so.

> It looks like a great group.

> My name is Rich and I'm a television newswriter at CNN in Atlanta,

> Georgia.

> Although I'm a writer by profession, I find it difficult to put

> into words just how I've been affected by B-T. But I can say it has

> changed my life and the way I look at it.

Welcome to the list, Rich. As a professor (and former practitioner)

of media, I envy you for being able to be in Atlanta, a city I used to

inhabit but now only get to visit once or twice a year (always for Pride

the last weekend of June, of course.<G>)

> When I first saw the film at a local art theater, I was

> overwhelmed emotionally. I was raised in the deep south in the 1950's

> by strict Christian parents. I learned by listening to them and to

> other grownups that my attraction to boys was wrong, wrong, wrong in

> the eyes of my church and almost everyone I knew.

Be assured that this feeling was there in the 50s elsewhere than in

the deep south. We Americans have a problem with sexuality and physical

pleasure of any kind. Those Pilgrim fathers whom we celebrate tomorrow on

Thanksgiving may have given us a holiday, but they also gave us severe

neuroses. :)

> It was something to be feared and overcome. And I learned to hate

> myself for it.

> But as we all know, our gay feelings just won't go away. And

> finally, many years after I became an adult, I accepted myself.

> B-T let me revive all those sweet, secret, emotions I had

> suppressed as a youth -- and let me enjoy -- through watching Jamie

> and Ste -- that thrill of discovery and the pure joy of being with

> someone you love. And it affects me that way everytime I see it.

> My lover says I'm a fanatic -- so be it. B-T never ceases to

> interest me, and it never fails to make me happy.

Just remember that the word "fan" is short for "fanatic." :) He

should be grateful for your BT fandom because it will make you a happier

person and make for a better relationship.

> It's great to find a group of people who share my feelings.

> Thanks to Chris for getting us together.

We owe Chris a lot for keeping this going. I guess a lot of us must

have missed a lot while the list was down, but it's been ever so active

since it got re-established. Thanks, Chris. :)

Gary

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:11:20 +0100

From: jmcs

Subject: Re: Introductions

Hi everybody!

Dirk and Rich, welcome to the list, the place of the greatest people in

the

galaxy!!

IsnB4t that wonderful how the number of members is growing and growing?

Have

you checked BTB4s website recently? More than 70.000 people have visited

it

already!

Well, for once I canB4t think of anything else to say. Oh, if I ever come

to

another of my ideas, you will be the next to know!!

 

Take care.

Sandra. (Always happy to be a part of this!)

**************************************************************

From: bjw

Subject: Anyone Want A Career Change?

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:56:20 +0000 (GMT)

 

The Spice Girls Application Form

Name:

Age:

Real Age:

How would you best describe yourself?

( ) An energetic self-starter

( ) A team player

( ) A tasty, albeit untalented, bit of crumpet

Do you have any detectable vestige of talent, besides your breasts?

Would it bother you to be the target of unrelenting hatred?

"I am willing to trade sexual favours for a career in the music industry."

( )Yes ( )No

How many times have you been kicked out of a karaoke bar?

Does nudity bother you? If so, give three excuses for your portfolio.

Explain the difficulties in identifying the source of individual freewill

In light of the deterministic theories of neurochemical medicine and

modern

behavioralist psychology. Just kidding! Seriously, do you like leather

mini-skirts?

Are you deceptively attractive in coloured or stroboscopic light?

( )Yes

( )No

Choose an appropriate nickname:

Sexy, Nasty, Sweetie, Syphilis, Lardy,

Sickly, Sporty, Slappy, Posher

Choose an appropriate image:

( ) Cute, blonde

( ) Tub of lard

( ) Bloke. In a tracksuit.

( ) Vacant stare, no discernible brain activity

( ) Terrifying to small children and old men

( ) All of the above

 

Do you promise to make one album and then go away forever?

( )Yes ( )No

If two trains leave Liverpool an hour apart at 90 kilometers, and 75

kilometers an hour, respectively, how would you look in a bikini?

In space provided, tell us why you want, why you really, really, want

this

job.

************************************************

Not that funny, but it sure beats doing work...!

:)

Speak to you soon!!

Ben. xxxxx

**************************************************************

From: mermatt

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:28:49 -0500

Subject: Re: Anyone Want A Career Change?

Honey, this little mermaid works by herself. I don't need no stinking

spice girls. I do it all by myself. Stay wet! mer-MATT

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:17:39 -0600

From: Gary

Subject: Re: Anyone Want A Career Change?

bjw3 wrote:

> The Spice Girls Application Form

>

> <snip>

Thanks for the laugh, Ben. I have no use for the Spice Girls. Now if

there

were an application to be a roadie for 911 (perhaps Lee's personal

assistant),

then I might be interested. ;)

Gary

**************************************************************

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:29:34 -0500

From: Dick

Subject: Spice Girls!!

Ben, thank you for making my day!!! I laughed out loud. Wonderful!!And

soooo true!!

Dick

**************************************************************

From: verdun

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:44:08 -0800

Subject: Re: Spice Girls!!

No Openings for the Spice Boys?

Alan

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:33:46 -0800 (PST)

From: Rich

Subject: Hello?

Has everyone gone to sleep?

Well, I'll toss out some ideas to see if anybody responds.

First of all, thanks to all of you who welcomed me to the list a few

days ago. It feels good to be on-line with people who share my BT

obsession.

Let's talk about the Gloucester. I wasn't lucky enough to go on

either of the tours last year, but did get to Greenwich on my own in

early April.

It was the weekend and the town and the pub were filled with tourists.

For those of you who haven't been there, Greenwich is an hour's

excursion boat ride down river from the houses of Parliament (downtown

London). It has a nice compact downtown with plenty of shops and

places to eat, drink and be merry.

The Gloucester is right in the middle of it -- at 1 King William Walk

-- facing the big park where the famous observatory is located.

You all know what the pub looks like -- it was exactly like the movie

when I was there. But, since it was the afternoon, it wasn't nearly

as crowded. And there were other tourists there -- most of them

obviously clueless that it's a gay pub and unaware they were trodding

sacred BT ground.

My friend and I had lunch there -- good food. We sat at a table right

where Petra (Jonathan Harvey) was seated in his wheelchair in the

movie. My impression was that that corner of the room is a lot smaller

than it looks on film. Of course, there was no entertainment during

the day. But there were flyers on the wall about upcoming game nights

and drag shows.

This may be an American thing, but I was really surprised there was no

poster for Beautiful Thing -- no t-shirts, or other souvenirs for sale

-- nothing to indicate this was the place given international

publicity by the play and movie.

We had to ask several people working there before finding someone who

had been around during the filming. He told us they kept the bar open

for business while the cameras were there. Wouldn't it have been

great to be there then!!

I had a wonderful time at the Gloucester -- wished I could have

returned in the evening -- but couldn't because of other plans. But I

can't wait to go back.

And as somebody else has already mentioned, the 180 bus does not stop

right in front of the pub. In fact, King William Walk is a one way

street running the opposite direction from the scene in the movie.

We'll let that get by under "poetic license."

I just got a chuckle from the www.greenwich2000.co.uk website. It

describes the Gloucester Tavern as a "popular tourist pub during the

day." No mention about what happens at night. Ha. And they give the

phone number in case anyone needs to call or is just so mad about the

film as to care for this trivia: 0181-858-2666.

OK, the rest of you who have been there -- what were your impressions?

 

**************************************************************

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:01:47 -0500 (EST)

From: Eric

Subject: Gloucester Impressions

I have a couple of things to add:

>This may be an American thing, but I was really surprised there was no

>poster for Beautiful Thing -- no t-shirts, or other souvenirs for sale

>-- nothing to indicate this was the place given international

>publicity by the play and movie.

While there was nothing for sale in the way of souvenirs, there was a big

BT poster on the wall when I was there (in October). Overall, the place

looked to me pretty much as it did on the film, except there is no stage,

so I was a little turned around at first. (The pub that Sandra worked in,

also does not have a stage in real life).

I also was not at The Gloucester at night, and it was pretty quiet (except

for us BT fans!) when I was there at mid-day. It was raining, so there

weren't any (or many) tourists hanging around the area.

Returning the next day (Sunday) there were a lot of tourists hanging

about.

-Eric

**************************************************************

From: mermatt

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:33:23 -0500

Subject: Re: Hello?

Hello! I know what you mean about visiting places where movies have been

made -- either sets or real locations. Often they look smaller. It has

something to do with perspective and the curve of the lense -- as well

as close ups, etc. These angles and methods can make a small place look

much larger. So did you raise an ale or something to the boys? Yes, I

think it is an American thing -- so far anyway -- to do tee-shirts and

other things like that. But who knows? The British may learn to do that.

Sort of off topic but mildly related -- the latest fad is to sell movie

props. There is a company who is marketing props from the new TITANIC.

**************************************************************

From: "Jeff

Subject: Points Well Taken

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:49:30 -0600

Thanks, Rich, for the Gloucester observations and for awakening us from

our

slumber.

I, too, have visited the Gloucester. Twice, actually. First with the

lovely

American, Dutch and English boys (oh, and Gavvy, the lovely Singaporean)

on

Saturday, Oct. 11, and second on Oct. 12, when the Fab Four Americans

returned on a much sunnier, warmer day. (We took the scenic route down

the

Thames, too. A wonderful ride.)

After the initial feeling of "wow, this is REALLY where BT was filmed," I

looked around and found the Gloucester to be just like any other bar. I

agree with your point on the size of the room. Movies always seem to make

things bigger, and the Gloucester was no exception. For one thing, the

area

where the Drag Queen performed is well lighted by windows that were

covered

for the filming.

There was/is a BT poster up now, over the fireplace, I believe. I took a

piccie of KyleTX (the lovely Texan) in front of it. I was surprised it

wasn't framed. It's just hanging there, collecting smoke and dust. You'd

think the BT connection would be treated with more dignity. Maybe that's

because of the straight-by-day guise it takes on.

Whilst we were there, "Make Your Own Kind of Music" played. Or I think

that

was the song. I think they knew who the clientele was. The Saturday BT

meeting more than doubled the size of the crowd there. It was pretty much

gay that day (from what I could tell).

An interesting non-BT observation: When the bartender realized he was

serving an American, he asked whether I wanted ice in my pop. That was

nice, but I told him I wanted it English style. :-) That was the only

time

whilst in Britain that happened.

As for poetic license with buses, I think they took some with the 180 in

Thamesmead, too. When Jamie and Ste get on to go to the Gloucester, they

get on going the wrong way. I'm sure the bus loops around, but a savvy

Thamesmeadian would not have done that. OK, call me anal. Am I correct,

fellow BT nuts?

Jeff

**************************************************************

From: mark

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:24:27 EST

Hi!

My name is Mark . I have just recently joined the BEAUTIFUL

THING mailing list. I was so excited to see that there are other fanatics

of this movie. I saw it for the first time this last August and I just

fell in love with it. It seems as though in the United States, not many

people seem to have heard of the movie. I , myself just thought it wasa

freak coincidence that I came across it. I live in a very conservative,

not gay friendly community in Up State New York. I was surprised to even

see a gay film in the video rental store. Since my first viewing, I have

rented the film 20 times and watched probably 40. I really need to buy

it.

Off the subject of BEAUTIFUL THING, but somewhat relevant to its

theme: I was wondering the following: I know many people from the mailing

list are from countries around the world. What is the gay tolerance like

in these countries? I feel we have made such little progress in the U.S.,

I was wondering if the attitude is much different elsewhere?

Anyone who would like to answer me without going through the mailing

list itself can e-mail me at: RobinsonMark@Juno.com

Thanks for any and all replies.

Love and Honesty,

Mark

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:10:02 -0600

From: Gary

Subject: Re: Public

Mark  wrote:

> Hi!

>

> My name is Mark . I have just recently joined the BEAUTIFUL

> THING mailing list. I was so excited to see that there are other

fanatics

> of this movie. I saw it for the first time this last August and I just

> fell in love with it. It seems as though in the United States, not many

> people seem to have heard of the movie. I , myself just thought it wasa

> freak coincidence that I came across it. I live in a very conservative,

> not gay friendly community in Up State New York. I was surprised to even

> see a gay film in the video rental store. Since my first viewing, I have

> rented the film 20 times and watched probably 40. I really need to buy

> it.

Welcome to the list, Mark. Whereabouts in upstate are you? I'm

originally from Rochester, NY and saw BT at the Little Theater while home

for

Christmas last year. When it came out on video here in Jackson, TN, my

favorite local store was not ordering it, but they did let me buy it

through

them at their price - about 75 bucks including tax..

> Off the subject of BEAUTIFUL THING, but somewhat relevant to its

> theme: I was wondering the following: I know many people from the

mailing

> list are from countries around the world. What is the gay tolerance like

> in these countries? I feel we have made such little progress in the

U.S.,

> I was wondering if the attitude is much different elsewhere?

I'll let the others speak for their countries, but, yes, this is a

_very_

international list...we are internationally fanatics! <G>

Gary

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:23:49 -0500

From: Keith

Subject: Re: Public

Mark,

If we haven't said it yet, a big welcome to the list! You are in very

good company.

With regards to tolerance, I live outside Philadelphia (the City of

Brotherly Love!), so I can't speak for overseas, but I can say I think

Philly is fairly tolerant of the gay community. We have a several

block area downtown, where all the gay bars, etc. are, and I've been

to some Gay Pride events there, and have never heard of any

problems with violence, or gay bashing. There is also newspaper

boxes all over the city with the weekly newspaper Philadelphia Gay

News, and they always sell out by weeks end. In recent news in

Philly, the major city newspapers and the city are now offering

benefits to domestic partners of gay couples. Lastly, I don't think

Pennsylvania provides protection from harassment on the basis of

sexual preference, but I know New Jersey (where I actually live)

does, as does my employer here in Philly, though they are not

required to.

I try not to wear rose colored glasses, thinking there is no bashing

around here, cause I'm sure there is, and I guess I've been fortunate

so far, though I'm not the type to advertise it to the world, either.

As for being a BT fanatic - it's great, isn't it? I love everything to do

with it. My Windows desktop is Jamie and Ste embracing, the

poster is on my wall, I have the screen and stage play, and the

soundtrack. In short, I can't get enough of it. And to top it all of,

there is the great group of friends I have on in this list. What else

could I want? (OK, so maybe a boyfriend would be nice...)

Keith

 

>>> Mark 12/05/97 12:24PM >>>

Hi!

My name is Mark Robinson. I have just recently joined the BEAUTIFUL

THING mailing list. I was so excited to see that there are other fanatics

of this movie. ....

I live in a very conservative,

not gay friendly community in Up State New York. I was surprised to even

see a gay film in the video rental store. ....

Off the subject of BEAUTIFUL THING, but somewhat relevant to its

theme: I was wondering the following: I know many people from the mailing

list are from countries around the world. What is the gay tolerance like

in these countries? I feel we have made such little progress in the U.S.,

I was wondering if the attitude is much different elsewhere?

Anyone who would like to answer me without going through the mailing

list itself can e-mail me at: RobinsonMark@Juno.com

Thanks for any and all replies.

Love and Honesty,

Mark

**************************************************************

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:57:20 -0800 (PST)

From: painter

Subject: Gay Tolerance (was: Public)

Hi, Mark, and welcome to the BT list.

First of all, the question you ask regarding gay tolerance in other

countries (or different areas of the same countries) interests me -- and

might very well interest other people on this list. So I encourage all

interested in this topic to respond via the list so everyone can benefit

from the information.

As for myself, I live in the San Francisco Bay Area (Oakland, to be

precise), California, USA; but grew up in the rural midwest (Indiana).

I've

also lived in Illinois, Wisconsin and Florida.

My experience is that the sociological ambiance of the SF Bay Area is

unique. (c.f.,

http://sfbay.yahoo.com/Community/Cultures_and_Groups/Lesbian__Gay_and_Bisex

ual/

).The overall political climate is liberal/progressive, stemming from

Berkeley and SF being the epicenters for the Free Speech and Psychedelic

movements of the 60s. (There's a documentary video I highly recommend to

anyone interested in the history of this area called "Berkeley in The

Sixties"; it truly gives you a taste of what happened and, to a certain

degree, is still happening here.)

San Francisco is often referred to as 'Gay Mecca' and for good reason.

There is a very strong, vocal and active gay political presence not only

in

the city itself, but beyond that, the State. Hell, the mayor (Willie

Brown,

was a member of the CA state legislature for many years) and several

council members participated directly in this past years LGBT Pride Day

Parade.

The number of 'out' gay people in the Bay Area is so enormous, for the

most

part no one thinks much about it. It may be a personal (comfort zone)

issue

for any given individual but, all in all, I'd have to say that in most

instances (social, work place, public places, etc.,) it is simply regarded

as 'un-cool' to appear homophobic. Legally, many anti-discrimination laws

are already in place. The one thing we can not do (yet) is marry. But even

so there are 'domestic partner' policies in place in various sectors

(cities governments, businesses, etc.). Just recently, for example, the

Regents of the University of California (one of, if not 'the' largest

University systems in the world) adopted a Domestic Partner policy in

direct opposition to our conservative State Governor (who publicly opposed

the measure). Policies such as this extend employee (medical, retirement,

etc.) benefits to domestic partners regardless of their sex or marital

status. Our idiot Governor vetoed a similar domestic partner policy that

had passed the State Legislature that would have covered all State

employees.

The 'center' of 'gay life' in San Francisco is 'the Castro'; a district of

the city surrounding a street by the same name. (c.f.,

http://sfbay.yahoo.com/Neighborhoods/Castro/ ) 'The Castro' is also

thought

of as a 'gay ghetto' -- almost everyone who lives there IS gay or lesbian!

Many gay people like this kind of tight-knit community. Others, such as

myself, find it a bit too much. There are almost as many gay men and women

in the East Bay (directly across the SF Bay from the city) where I live

but

here we are more 'integrated' in the other communities. There are also

many

gays who live in the suburbs beyond the immediate Bay Area.

Having said all this, I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no

'homophobia' here in the Bay Area. I seldom experience it -- but I have

experienced it. Mostly coming from adolescent boys who (apparently) are

uncomfortable with their own sexuality. One time, for example, my partner

and I were walking hand in hand down Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley (a street

KNOWN for it's weirdos, understand) when this punk-esk kid, hangn' with

some friends, yelled out, 'FAGGOTS'! David and I had just passed them. We

stopped, turned around, looked at this guy who was a total grunge-gear

anti-fashion victim and burst out laughing! His friends just stared at him

and he very quickly got the message that he wasn't being 'cool' and headed

off down the street on his skate board. Violence against gays does happen,

but it is very rare.

Less obvious, I've noticed that some (not all) straights like to appear

'tolerant' but, in fact, still feel uncomfortable around gay people.

Mostly

these are folks who don't have many 'out' gay friends and feel, perhaps,

threatened by the whole concept. They don't want to appear homophobic,

but,

in point of fact, they are a bit. I've noticed as time has gone on,

though,

that I run into fewer and fewer straights who have this kind of 'apparent'

tolerance. Or, to put it another way, the results of integrating gays and

straights primarily in the work place is having a positive effect

socially.

Well, I know, this is long but, hey, as I've said before, I don't post

that

often. Hope some of you find this interesting. I'd like to hear about how

life is in other areas of the world, too!

Mike

 

 

On: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:24:27 EST

mark wrote:

>

> My name is Mark . I have just recently joined the BEAUTIFUL

>THING mailing list. I was so excited to see that there are other fanatics

>of this movie. I saw it for the first time this last August and I just

>fell in love with it. It seems as though in the United States, not many

>people seem to have heard of the movie. I , myself just thought it wasa

>freak coincidence that I came across it. I live in a very conservative,

>not gay friendly community in Up State New York. I was surprised to even

>see a gay film in the video rental store. Since my first viewing, I have

>rented the film 20 times and watched probably 40. I really need to buy

>it.

>

> Off the subject of BEAUTIFUL THING, but somewhat relevant to its

>theme: I was wondering the following: I know many people from the mailing

>list are from countries around the world. What is the gay tolerance like

>in these countries? I feel we have made such little progress in the U.S.,

>I was wondering if the attitude is much different elsewhere?

>

> Anyone who would like to answer me without going through the mailing

>list itself can e-mail me at:

>

> Thanks for any and all replies.

>

>Love and Honesty,

>

>Mark