Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:34:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Bigotry

Hi Donald,

Fighting bigotry (aka homophobia), eh? Well, keep in mind that this will
be a life-long struggle necessarily waged on many fronts simultaneously.
The most important front being, IMO, within one's self.

I turned 50 a couple weeks ago. Hard for me to imagine! I don't 'feel' 50
(whatever that means). I can tell you that the 'fight against bigotry' has
been and continues to be a large part of my life. My most advantageous
weapon? Being myself as much as I can as often as I can.

Note I don't say 'being myself all the time'. That is simply inconsistent
with the realities of our society. One makes choices. If, as you say, in
your line of work certain assumptions are made about gay men, then you are
faced with hard choices: a) accept the prevailing attitude and learn to
live within it; b) do what you can to educate those around you to a less
prejudiced point of view; c) moving to a geographic/social area where
these assumptions are less prevelant; d) leave that profession and find
another where this is not an issue, etc. Different personality types will
relate to these options differently. For example, someone less concerned
with the consequences might choose to be openly gay in the situation,
accepting that whatever comes to pass is a statement about 'them' not
one's self. I don't want to hold that up as the 'ideal', however; I don't
live my life that way. I choose my battles carefully--some might argue
_too_ carefully, but that's not my concern. I have to find my own comfort
level in each situation--sometimes choosing to deliberately stretch it a
bit. (And, man, have I been doing some stretching recently--but that's
another topic!)

But there is more. Being 'myself' isn't a static but a dynamic thing. Who
I am today is not who I was yesterday. Self acceptance presumes self
awareness; I can only 'be myself' to the degree that I'm conscious of all
my different (and often seemingly conflicting) parts. Some moments I'm
more aware, some moments less. But the over all trajectory of my of my
life is toward greater self-awareness and self-acceptance.

I hold this as a RADICAL act. An act which flies in the face of repression
and suppression: The denial of the human self in all its variety and
complexity. That social 'denial' is the cornerstone of social control.

I have a saying: He who controls your perception of reality controls you.
Or, put another way, the more I understand how it is I've been conditioned,
the more I liberate myself from the many taboos I incorporated (literally
took into my body--from my parents, family, school, community, culture and
society) the more I become 'myself'. Note: when I say 'liberate' I mean
'become aware of'. It is through this awareness that I am able to make
choices (the kinds of choices presented in 'A story from Finland').

You see, we've been programmed to assume certain attitudes, certain
emotional reactions to given external stimuli. When we come across someone
who chooses to relate to life from a different point of view, especially a
more authentic point of view, it always comes as a kind of 'shock'. When I
see something that has been conditioned in myself I am presented with a
choice; and that choice is closer to who I truly am, my authentic self.
What is more, it is an on-going process of self-discovery. The more I am
myself, the more I see bigotry--both in others and in myself--for what it
really is: The denial of the deepest and most profound aspects of the
fundamentally human. It is an attempt to control (via imposition) from the
outside in.

Why do we feel the need to control ourselves and others? Because we are
taught, fundamentally, to fear and not TRUST ourselves. The fundamental
myth of western Judeo/Christian Civilization posits original Man (Adam and
Eve) as untrustworthy: committing 'original sin': going against God's law:
needing, therefore, punishment and redemption. Seen in this light,
learning to trust one's self is a truly SUBVERSIVE act. It contradicts the
dominant (dominator) paradigm on which Western Civilization is based.

I know, what I'm saying goes quite a ways beyond the question you asked.
Those of you who've seen me post to the list before won't be surprised
that I take things to the n'th degree. :-) But I say these things because
I believe that if one is serious about fighting bigotry in all it's many
forms, one must be at least somewhat aware of what one is taking on. It is
huge! This is not to dissuade anyone from taking on this struggle. Rather
it is to put it in a context.

Changes in societies perceptions of gays (for example) have changed
significantly in my life time. Of course it varies from place to place,
situation to situation, person to person. This overall change is the
result of many people choosing to accept the consequences of their actions
on many different fronts.

Personally I believe the most important front is, as I've said, within
myself. The more I come to understand my own internalized bigotry or
homophobia (my own acquired sense of shame, for example) the more free I
am to choose my responses to a given situation. "Shame" is key. We've all
(heterosexual and homosexual alike) been conditioned to feel a certain
degree of shame in relation to our natural impulses. We've been made to
fear them. My god, what would happen if everyone acted out their natural
impulses! Anarchy would be set loose upon the world; madness, insanity,
perversion, death and destruction...! You see? That's what we've been told
we really are and if we don't' keep a grip on it, the whole thing will
unravel.

Well, I don't believe that anymore. I used to, but not any more. I've come
to a different point of view in which human beings are fundamentally good,
kind, loving creatures who want to laugh and play and sing and dance--and
do good work, too. On the contrary, as I see it, it is suppression of our
natural impulses which leads to all the corruption we fear. The TRUTH of
our situation (a world filled with disease, crime, injustice, violence
small and great and the potential for ever greater violence, etc.) is
actually a RESULT of externally imposed (and subsequently embodied)
suppression of our innermost selves.

But I know it does me no good to tell anyone this. One has to discover
this for one's self through, little by little, confronting one's own
fears; one's own 'demons'. Stripping them away one by one, layer by layer,
till the heart, one's own essence, is exposed.

That's how I fight bigotry.

M>

At 9:16 PM -0500 1/23/98, Donald wrote:
>First, Ben, thanks for the uplifting story. I have already forwarded it
to
>many internet and AOL friends...will keep it in my archives to be sent.
(Also
>to be included in my page, if I can?)
>
>Secondly, can anyone help me on how to fight bigotry? I am very serious
about
>this. In my line of work, or profession if you will, if you are gay, you
are
>automatically presumed to be a pedophile and are "removed from direct
contact
>with all youth." I know this to be true. This train of thought is totally
>absurd to me! You have many older males gawking and hooting at young
girls
>younger than their youngest daughters...yet we are the peds? So, in
dealing
>with this reality, how can we fight it? I am interested in everybody's
>responses, if you do not want to respond to the entire list, just send me
a
>private email. PLEASE help me on this.
>
>Thanks guys (and gals)
>Donald
>--
>This message was sent via the Beautiful Thing Mailing List

Mike

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:33:03 -0500
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Bigotry

Matt's right. A good role model or positive example is the only way to
dispel the rumors nand homophobia that surrounds gay people. Sadly, there
are some people that will never change; they either want to hate someone
else, or hate themselves for whatever reason, and are transferring that
hate to the nearest scapegoat.

I mean, when was the last time when you heard of a gay man molesting a
child in the news? Yet you hear about coaches, etc. molesting young girls
all the time.

Maybe th Boyscouts of America (where this kind of behavior is apparently
common, among other places) and other organizations should start trying to
educate kids about today's world in a positive and constructive way,
rather than just hiding the kids from the truth, which they will have face
someday anyway.

I don't mean to pick on the Boy Scouts of America (well, maybe I do), but
there is a guy being dismissed from them because some councillors "think"
he is gay (which he is). This kind of behaviour is unacceptable. If you
can't accept the diversity in this country/world, then do everyone a
favor, and go away.

This is why shows like Ellen, and the constant news about various
companies extending benefits to same-sex couples are so important. We are
slowly becoming simply another part of society. Once the initial shock is
over, viewers will (hopefully) see Ellen as just another woman, with
hopes/fears/etc., and not focus on her sexuality only.

Keith

>>> matthew  01/24/98 06:40AM >>>
One way to fight it is to set an example of a person who does not fit
the old stereotype. And never allow yourself to be baited into getting
defensive about who you are. MATT

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:36:47 -0500
From: "Harry
Subject: Scott Alert: "Attitude"

The February 1998 issue of "Attitude" just arrived and I want to let all
you Scott Neal obsessives know (as well as the rest of us) that there is a
full page devoted to him, with a couple of photos, one certainly worthy of
mounting on the bathroom mirror (great way to greet the morning!). A
couple of quotes:
"Take this morning. It's 11am and he's just rolled in for the Attitude
photo-shoot (only slightly late, mind) with his mate Chris and is talking
about this mad time they had in this bar in Soho last night...."
....
"He's very enthusiastic about this new job [as a PC in 'The Bill'],.......'

It's a great role for me. Plus I get to wear a police uniform'"
!!! :- )
So, be on the look out for the February issue as I guess it won't be in
the
shops for long.
- Harry
--

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:51:20 -0500
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Something annoying me...

Paul,

We've had this discussion before, but I'm still not sure there's ever been
a definitive answer to it. I tend to agree with Andy for the reasons he's
mentioned. especially the scene where Sandra eyes up Ste when he comes
over with the hat.
I guess it also could be because she is so fed up with him cutting PE that
she's planting a (subtle) hint that he's almost old enough to kick out of
the house. Or maybe by getting rid of his toys, she will force him to
grow up a little, and be more responsible (i.e. go to PE class) you know,
like your parents throwing away your teddy bear when it was time for you
to "grow up" (didn't work with me, though, I just went out and got
another one!) (and yes, I still have it...)

The stage play is even more vague. Sandra's just throwing bags away, and
Jamie tells Leah what's in them.

Keith

>>> Andy  01/24/98 07:44AM >>>
Paul wrote:
>HI there.
>
>I just wonder if I could ask a small question about BT. I have seen the
film
>five times now, and I still can't understand what happens at the
following
>dialog:
>
>Sandra: "You know what I'm gonna do now do'ncha"
>Jamie: "Juggle wiv'um?"
>

According to pages 7 and 8 of the BT screenplay, Sandra comes in the room
with a bag of tangarines and begins to put them in a fruit bowl. Sandra
admires her fruit bowl arrangement them looks at Jamie and says...

"You know what I'm gonna do now, dontcha"

Jamie looks at the Tangerines and quick wittedly says...

"Juggle with 'em!"

>And then she begins to throw loads of toys in the bin?!

I wondered about the 'toy trashing' myself, and posted something to the
list a few months back, but can't find it in the hundreds of list messages
I have on file. But seeing you only just got here I better make a fresh
stab at it...

IMO, Sandra is convinced that Jamie is not the fathering type...and this
starts the first subconsious thinking by Sandra that Jamie *might* be gay.

There are other bits in the film that support my theory...like when Sandra
lets Ste in the front door to see Jamie (to present him with the hat) she
(Sandra) looks out the door to see if anybody had witnessed Ste entering
the flat.

Last time, others on the list disagreed with me, but it's only my opinion.
:)

Andy.
ps..excuse my bad spelling, my Australian Oxford Mini Dictionary has pages
475-506 missing and goes from "stub to "tom-tom"!!!

--

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:16:25 -0500
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Something annoying me...

Ooo, Good point Mike! I forgot about Sandra's "I've been fighten for him
all my life" speech. I think that reenforces my point that she is finally
starting to let go of Jamie, to let him do his own thing, brought on by
the anger over the fight and cutting class. Later, when Jamie picks a
fight with Sandra over the "bloke that beat you" fits, too. Jamie is
asserting his independence, and Sandra knows this, but as he is all she
has, she is off course reluctant to let go.

Keith

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:28:45 -0500
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Bigotry

Gary,

You are so right! I have a real good (straight) friend Justin, who
doesn't know I'm gay. (Actually, this list excluded, only 5 people do
know) Off course we've played the game "hypothetically speaking, what
would you do if a clsoe friend told you he was gay?" His response? "I
wouldn't want to be around them - I mean, what would we have in common?
Hello, Justin. It's not like we have sex together. What about our common
interest in movies, Flyers hockey, computer friends, etc??? Since when
does any of that change because I'm gay????

But that is the kind of response I'm afraid you will get from a lot of
people. He may claim that it alright to be gay, just don't do it anywhere
near him. Any suddenly we wouldn't be seeing as much of each other, etc.

I do have a BT poster on my wall in plain view, and talk about it
constantly, have the cd, screenplay, PCdesktop, etc. which he sees, so
maybe he just doesn't have a clue.

>>> Gary  01/24/98 12:21PM >>>
>Even our so-called "friends" who claim to
>support us still are suspicious of us. My sister's family was the first
>I came out to and they were quite supportive but I later found out that
>my brother-in-law didn't want his son (my nephew) coming to visit the
>college I teach at, at least not coming alone, because I was gay. That
>really hurt.

Howdy neighbor! I'm  Can I add a
link to you from my BT page? I too have a "public" "safe" web page
I guess it's not as
strange as I originally thought! (how's that for a shameless plug,
Andy??)

> Anyhow, although my "public" website is always included in my e-mail
>sig, I have another site that contains GLB resources of all kinds, as
>well as a page of gay guys' homepages. Y'all are welcome to check it
>out and make suggestions for additions.
>Gary

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:01:47 -0800
From: "jean.
Subject: Hey all!

It's Jean. Just as I got hooked up with all of you I had to go to Portland
for a family emergency. I returned last night to 62 unread posts!!! I love
this list! I'm undaunted and want to read each one but will still have a
delay as I have to go back to Portland. I'm missing being a part of alot
of
great conversations etc. and want to join in but can't right away. Hope to
be back in another week if all goes well. Welcome to Paul and any others
who've joined since I did (I'm a bt mailing list virgin too).
You guys are great. bt-stories? yeah!! I think that anyone who has seen
this movie has some floating around in their hearts or minds or otherwise
and might/might not want to share them and here's the opportunity. I'm
sure
they run the full gamut, gambit, gambutt (sp?). I think it's a great idea
and if there are stories that are bothersome or offensive to anyone, hey,
that's what the delete button is for!!
I'm off to Portland. Talk to you soon. Jean.
--

*****************************************************

From: jmcs
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:17:37 +0000
Subject: Re: Sigh!!

> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:15:28 +1100 (EST)
> From: Andy 

> Subject: Re: Sigh!!

> Chris, in a panic responded to Sandra and me:
>
> >> >P.S. Have you seen Scott Neal's picture in the French site? My jaw
fell
> >> >open and I'm still trying to close it up!! God, I've never seen
> >>anything so
> >> >beautiful!!! Oh Scott, please, marry me!!!
> >> >
> >> NO, NOT HER, "MEEEEE"!!!!
> >
> >NO, NOT EITHER OF 'EM, HAVE "MEEEEEEEEEE" I'M CUTER!!! :)
>
> Now this is getting greed. You can't have two guys at once! ...although
I'm
> sure you're quite accustomed to threesomes!!! :)

Some time ago, I wouldn't have dared to answer this, but now...

Andy, dear, since I'm a member of this list I've had to juggle with
dozens of men, so a threesome is a piece of cake, baby!! :)

Sorry, but I HAD to say it!! :)

Take care.

Sandra.

*****************************************************

From: jmcs
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:21:38 +0000
Subject: Re: Something annoying me...

> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:06:37 -0800 (PST)
> From: jmcs

> Subject: Re: Something annoying me...
> Cc: 

> Hi Everyone,
>
> Yes, I'm still here. Lurking mostly...

Hi Mike!! It's great to hear from you again!! I missed ya!! And
your wise posts!! I hope everything's alright in San Francisco!!

Take care.

A Very Happy Sandra.

*****************************************************

From: Sven
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:35:14 EST
Subject: Re: Bigotry

I know what you are talking about. A friend of mine was convicted of
pedophilic crimes when he was a 16. When he turned 25, we moved in
together.
Certain members of the "justice community" began harrassing him and he was
put
into jail because they thought I was his boyfriend and I was trying to
lead
him into his old way of life, even though he was already married and had a
kid
of his own. What a crock, eh?
If it comes out, go to the manager of the daycare. Make it clear to
him/her
that there is no reason for concern, and perhaps give him/her a list of
personal contacts who would vouch for your integrity.
Best of luck,
Steve
--

*****************************************************

From: Donald
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:26:18 EST
Subject: Re: Bigotry
Chris,
(I think) You inquired about my line of work...I work with youth...typical
age
12-15. I also live in a conservative city (Louisville), which of course
heeds
to the problem. When young people are in their teens, as you all know, it
is
when they first begin to question their person...including sexuality. I
know
for a fact that one teacher who "is pretty positive" (her direct quote)
that
"that young guy is...queer." and she continued to say "I just don't want
my
students around that kind of an influence." In my opinion...I should
certainly
be around her students. I am not, apparently, what they see everyday.
These
young people need to be exposed to this life as something totally natural.
I
feel we really have no choice in the matter; except to live it openly or
not.

There is my mini-soap box. I am interested in hearing other's takes on the
matter at hand.

Thanks guys,
Donald
--

*****************************************************

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:16:20 -0500
From: MGB
Subject: Re: You know what I'm gonna do now.....

Eric  wrote:

> I think this is Sandra's way of showing who is in control. My mother
> always threatened to throw away my comic books. Eventually, she actually
> went ahead and did it, just like Sandra is doing with Jamie's things.\

This is just cruel and unusual punish....to throw away a kids comicbooks!!!
Im
horrified!Hehehehehe! Just teasing! Im 34 and still collect comicbooks!
Believe me, some of them aint what they used to be. Check out DC's
Vertigo
line...very adult themes and very often they touch on gay themes too!
See Ya!
MGB

*****************************************************

From: Sketcher-K
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:15:46 -0800
Subject: Switching from lurker mode. . .

This is my first post but I've been lurking for a couple of months now.
I've been enjoying reading all the posts from all of the dedicated
BT-ers out there. I'm from Southern California and I have always felt a
certain affinity towards London. Seeing BT made it all the better.

Reading the posts here makes certain parts of the movie a lot more clear
to me, but lately I've concerned myself with rather trivial matters. For
example, was that beer that everyone was drinking out on the balcony,
you know, when they were all talking about Mama Cass and how she died?
Because if I were there, I would have fallen off that balcony in a
drunken stupor while trying to make passes at Jamie and Ste. Do the
British drink like fishes or what? Just curious.

Going back into lurker mode now. . .
--

*****************************************************

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:34:29 +1100 (EST)
From: Andy
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

Sketcher-K wrote:

>This is my first post but I've been lurking for a couple of months now.
>I've been enjoying reading all the posts from all of the dedicated
>BT-ers out there.
<snip>

It's about time you wrote sometime. :)

>Reading the posts here makes certain parts of the movie a lot more clear
>to me, but lately I've concerned myself with rather trivial matters. For
>example, was that beer that everyone was drinking out on the balcony,
>you know, when they were all talking about Mama Cass and how she died?
>Because if I were there, I would have fallen off that balcony in a
>drunken stupor while trying to make passes at Jamie and Ste. Do the
>British drink like fishes or what? Just curious.
>

Ok, this is easy. It's scene 45 of the screenplay...

They are drinking 'lager'.

Now this bit is what confuses me...

In scene 46 in Sandra's kitchen, Jamie is at the fridge getting another
can
of lager out when Sandra come in.

Here in Australia we drink our beer cold. Colder the better. I was brought
up believing the British drank their beer warm. So why does Sandra keep
lager in the fridge?

>Going back into lurker mode now. . .

Oi! Come back 'ere...we ain't finished with you yet!!! :))

Andy.

*****************************************************

From: "Chris
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:09:39 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Can you forward this to the list...?

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:43:19 -0800
From: David
Subject: Can you forward this to the list...?

Sketcher-K wrote:
>
> This is my first post but I've been lurking for a couple of months now.
> I've been enjoying reading all the posts from all of the dedicated
> BT-ers out there. I'm from Southern California and I have always felt a
> certain affinity towards London. Seeing BT made it all the better.

Strange really, the first time I visited London I almost ended up
getting picked up by a strange feller who followed me around :) Me
being so young and cowardly I just ducked into a travel agents and
waited till he went ...

Mind you, I was very innocent in those days :)

> Reading the posts here makes certain parts of the movie a lot more clear
> to me, but lately I've concerned myself with rather trivial matters. For
> example, was that beer that everyone was drinking out on the balcony,

I'm not sure. I'll have to check what brand it was later :)

> you know, when they were all talking about Mama Cass and how she died?
> Because if I were there, I would have fallen off that balcony in a
> drunken stupor while trying to make passes at Jamie and Ste. Do the

Tee heee :) If I was still single, I'd have joined you :)

> British drink like fishes or what? Just curious.

Some of us can't... In fact I drink like a tadpole due to my inability
to stay sober with more than 1 pint of medium strength alcohol :)

Oh - I remember one night when I went out to the pubs and got myself
completely sozzled ... but that's another story :)

> Going back into lurker mode now. . .

Same here :)

"Daveykins"

--
Chris

*****************************************************

From: "Chris
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:19:50 +0000
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

> This is my first post but I've been lurking for a couple of months
> now. I've been enjoying reading all the posts from all of the
> dedicated BT-ers out there. I'm from Southern California and I have
> always felt a certain affinity towards London. Seeing BT made it all
> the better.
London is a great city. I'm glad I'm only an hour or 2 outside of it
:-)

>
> Reading the posts here makes certain parts of the movie a lot more
> clear to me, but lately I've concerned myself with rather trivial
> matters. For example, was that beer that everyone was drinking out
> on the balcony, you know, when they were all talking about Mama Cass
> and how she died? Because if I were there, I would have fallen off
> that balcony in a drunken stupor while trying to make passes at
> Jamie and Ste. Do the British drink like fishes or what? Just
> curious.
Yes thats beer they are drinking (well it's Carling Black Label, a
5.4% by volume lager). Yeah the british in general drink a fair bit
of beer (well I do) a few cans on a summers afternoon sounds
wonderful to me. (Well not carling black label, but a few cans of
something with a taste :))

>
> Going back into lurker mode now. . .

*lurker detector on*
*beep*
*beeep*
*beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep*
Hey guys I think i found another lurker :)

--
Chris

*****************************************************

From: Preten4166 <Preten4166@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:05:48 EST
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

Ive been lurking for a while now also - I was introduced to 'Beautiful
Thing'
by my best friend. He brought the movie over and we watched it - we ended
up
holding hands half way thrue the movie - I never had any idea that he felt
that way about me - Hey I didnt realize I felt like that but any way
everythings great :) Hope this isnt getting too far off the subject.
Aaron
--

*****************************************************

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:13:14 -0500
From: "Paul
Subject: Re: Re: New Bloke!

Thanks guys but please, Andy, Chris, let there no be any fighting over
little 'ole me. Nuff of me to go around anyway ;O)

Now I'm off to read the end of Jamie and Ste's First night together, at
the bt-stories archive, now that the link to the alternate ending is
fixed. Whew! I've been waiting in anticipation all weekend!

Catch ya later dudes (and dudette)!
--

*****************************************************

From: Paul
Subject: Re: Something annoying me...
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:50:19 +0000

Sandra seems pretty angry at that point in the film, so presumably her
throwing away the toys is a punishment to Jamie. However it doesn't seem a
very good one, because he never uses the toys, they are stashed away in
his cupboard, forgotten about. Also if he doesn't want kids, why would he
save toys for them. The more I think about this small part of the film,
the more it annoys me!

- Paul

---

*****************************************************

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 17:41:33 MET
From: Hannes
Subject: Re[2]: Sigh!!

Sandra, darling!!
You surprise me!! ;)

Hannes (Hal)

______________________________ Reply Separator ____________________________
_____
Subject: Re: Sigh!!
Date: 1/25/98 12:01 PM

> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:15:28 +1100 (EST)
> From: Andy
> Subject: Re: Sigh!!


> Chris, in a panic responded to Sandra and me:
>
> >> >P.S. Have you seen Scott Neal's picture in the French site? My jaw
fell
> >> >open and I'm still trying to close it up!! God, I've never seen
> >>anything so
> >> >beautiful!!! Oh Scott, please, marry me!!!
> >> >
> >> NO, NOT HER, "MEEEEE"!!!!
> >
> >NO, NOT EITHER OF 'EM, HAVE "MEEEEEEEEEE" I'M CUTER!!! :)
>
> Now this is getting greed. You can't have two guys at once! ...although
I'm
> sure you're quite accustomed to threesomes!!! :)


Some time ago, I wouldn't have dared to answer this, but now...

Andy, dear, since I'm a member of this list I've had to juggle with
dozens of men, so a threesome is a piece of cake, baby!! :)

Sorry, but I HAD to say it!! :)

Take care.


Sandra.

*****************************************************

From: mermatt
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:40:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

Hi. No, you're not off topic. This is what BT is all about -- realizing
who we are and BEING who we are. Glad to hear the movie made such a
difference for you and your friend. MATT

*****************************************************

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:25:12 +1100 (EST)
From: Andy
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

Aaron > wrote:
>Ive been lurking for a while now also - I was introduced to 'Beautiful
Thing'
>by my best friend. He brought the movie over and we watched it - we
ended up
>holding hands half way thrue the movie - I never had any idea that he
felt
>that way about me - Hey I didnt realize I felt like that but any way
>everythings great :) Hope this isnt getting too far off the subject.
Aaron

Spot on target. Peoples personal experiences and reactions about how they
first saw BT make the best posts.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

Andy.

*****************************************************

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:59:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Rich
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

Aaron:
It isn't off the subject at all. That's what we're doing here ---
celebrating how BT is affecting each of us.
Cheers.
Rich


---Preten wrote:
>
> Ive been lurking for a while now also - I was introduced to
'Beautiful Thing'
> by my best friend. He brought the movie over and we watched it - we
ended up
> holding hands half way thrue the movie - I never had any idea that
he felt
> that way about me - Hey I didnt realize I felt like that but any way
> everythings great :) Hope this isnt getting too far off the
subject. Aaron
> --
> This message was sent via the Beautiful Thing Mailing List
>

*****************************************************

From: "Chris
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:10:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .
Priority: normal

>
> Ok, this is easy. It's scene 45 of the screenplay...
>
> They are drinking 'lager'.
>
> Now this bit is what confuses me...
>
> In scene 46 in Sandra's kitchen, Jamie is at the fridge getting
> another can of lager out when Sandra come in.
>
> Here in Australia we drink our beer cold. Colder the better. I was
> brought up believing the British drank their beer warm. So why does
> Sandra keep lager in the fridge?

Well thats simple, we drink our Beer warm and our larger cold.
Please don't confused beer and larger. :)
--
Chris

*****************************************************

From: "Chris
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:11:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .
Priority: normal

> Ive been lurking for a while now also - I was introduced to
> 'Beautiful Thing' by my best friend. He brought the movie over and
> we watched it - we ended up holding hands half way thrue the movie -
> I never had any idea that he felt that way about me - Hey I didnt
> realize I felt like that but any way everythings great :) Hope this
> isnt getting too far off the subject. Aaron

Awwww sweet :-)

Nah this is still bang on Subject. :)
--
Chris

*****************************************************

From: "Michael
Subject: REHEARSAL UPDATE #6
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:02:14 -0400

Fellow Beautiful Thing fans

With exactly two weeks to go before the Australian stage premiere of
BEAUTIFUL THING is unleashed upon Sydney audiences, the anticipation is
mounting.

Our publicity machine is in full swing with posters (which you can view at
distributed across town. Already people are
recognising the actors - especially Simon and Andrew (Jamie and Ste
respectively). "Capital Q", a weekly gay newspaper featured a full-page
article and the national glossy "Campaign" features the play in its
February edition. Another gay weekly, "Sydney Star Observer" is also
featuring the play as well as "The Sydney Morning Herald", "The Sunday
Telegraph", "Newtown Times" and more. The guys can also be heard on OUT FM
during February.

The set is rapidly taking shape in the Studio Theatre and the actors are
fitting into costumes. Actually, the three flats need to be numbered - any
suggestions (and no, 69 is not a possibility)?

I must say, certain scenes are already "there" with notable examples being
the bedroom scenes (Act I Scenes III and V and Act II Scene III). Leah is
enjoying her trip scene and the scene where Sandra confronts Jamie about
his visit to the Gloucester is fantastic.

Our VIP night on Thursday 12 February is already attracting a few
influential identities who have chosen our play over Senesino at the
Sydney
Opera House (now that's pretty hefty competition). January/February is a
huge period for Arts in Sydney with the Sydney Festival and Sydney Gay &
Lesbian Mardi Gras Festival competing for audiences. Our main rivals are
"My Night With Reg" and "Homme Fatale: The Joey Stefano Story" plus a
myriad of dance, musical, symphony, art gallery and theatre events.

Well, until next week (when the nerves will have well and truly set in),
take care.

Kind regards
MICHAEL
Director

*****************************************************

From: jmcs
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:07:33 +0000
Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

> From: Preten

> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:05:48 EST
> Subject: Re: Switching from lurker mode. . .

> Ive been lurking for a while now also - I was introduced to 'Beautiful
Thing'
> by my best friend. He brought the movie over and we watched it - we
ended up
> holding hands half way thrue the movie - I never had any idea that he
felt
> that way about me - Hey I didnt realize I felt like that but any way
> everythings great :) Hope this isnt getting too far off the subject.
Aaron

Hi everybody!!

Aaron, welcome aboard!! One lurker less!! :)
And don't worry, any comment you want to make will be fine. We talk
about
everything here (okay, we haven't talked about open-heart surgery... yet!)
I find your introduction very beautiful and sweet. I hope everything
is
perfect for you.

It seems the list is getting crowded, I love it!! (Chris, could you
please tell us how many are we already? I'm really curious!)

Take care.

Sandra.

*****************************************************

From: Donald
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:32:15 EST
Subject: BT Web address

Hey guys,
A major tragedy has fallen over me--my computer crashed. Wait, that's only
half of it...I lost all my favorite places that I bookmarked. Here lies
the
tragedy...I do not have the BT web address...any of them! AAACCCKK

However, I know that you can ALL come to my rescue on this one.

Well, I will go back to unfruitful net-surfs and a deep doldrum depression
until you bombard me with your positive responses.

Oh, I also lost nearly $250,000.00 in contracts too! But that is already
replaced (Thank goodness for temp.services)

Thanks guys,
Donald
--

*****************************************************

From: "Ben
Subject: Re: Speedy Ben
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:31:09 +0000 (GMT)

Hello everyone,

> BTW, is the play of BT you were directing still in progress?
Sad news (for me anyway) the production of Beautiful Thing in
Canterbury will now not go ahead. :( This is due to lack of support
(no males auditioned) and also budget cuts.
It was going to be the first gay play performed in the university. It
would have been something of a watershed for the drama society. Oh
well- in a kind of compensation they are letting me assist with 'Much
ado about nothing', which is nice but it isn't BT.

Speak to you soon!!

Ben. xxxxx

*****************************************************

From: Eric
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 06:59:34
Subject: Beautiful Thing websites

Hi everyone,

It has recently come to my attention that Paul s' Beautiful Thing
website copies much of the material that is contained on my website and
other websites.

I am very much a believer in creating a website that does NOT duplicate
what is already out there and available. If you cannot bring something
new, why bother? Until now, all of the BT websites contributed their
own
unique perspective and didn't copy what was already out there. There's
room for everyone to contribute their own material.

I started my Beautiful Thing website when it became apparent that David
Moody had stopped working on his great site. There was a lot of material

out there that I thought people would enjoy. I did not duplicate anyone
else's efforts; I made my own unique site, aided by many thoughtful
fans
around the globe.

I wrote to Paul and asked him to remove the material taken from my
site,
and he has flatly refused to do so. Since I do not own the copyrights
to
the material, he feels no restriction to copying anything he likes.

I feel this is more of a moral issue. I do not see why I should spend
much time, effort and money building a website only to have it ripped
off by someone else. In the many years that I have had websites, I have
never had this situation occur. People who made similar websites always
added fresh material and did not feel the need to copy what was already
out there. If this is the new direction of the web, I want no part of
it. Therefore, I have closed my site.

If you agree with my feelings on this subject, please write to Paul and
let him know: sretav@spectranet.ca

If any of you have not yet downloaded the wonderful poster of the
Australian BT production, it is still up: http://aok.com/bt/btaus1.jpg

The rest of the site is closed for the time being.

Best,

Eric

*****************************************************

From: "Michael
Subject: What are their unit numbers?
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:09:36 -0400

Fellow BT fans

At the moment we're constructing the set for "Beautiful Thing". We are
trying to decide on approproiate door numbers for the three units. Who
would like to be acknowledged in the programme for coming up with the
numbers?

Get back to me.

Cheers
MICHAEL
Director - Beautiful Thing
Australian Stage Premiere

*****************************************************

From: mermatt
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:16:53 -0500
Subject: Re: BT Web address

Hi. Here are two addresses:
Hope that helps. MATT

*****************************************************

From: "Michael
Subject: Rehearsal Update #7
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:09:49 -0400

Fellow Listers

I know, I know, I only posted the last update a couple of days ago - but I
couldn't help myself. Last night's rehearsal was absolute bliss. A full
run
of the play with music, props and costumes. The legend that is Beautiful
Thing lives on in that rehearsal hall I'm telling you!

The chemistry between Jamie and Ste is fantastic (you can see the poster
on
Eric's fabulous website ). The dynamic created
by actors who do not identify as straight certainly enhances the bedroom
scenes.

Another element which really helps the production is the rapport amongst
cast members. Andrew (Ste) and Simon (Jamie) are now fantastic friends
(although I don't think it goes further than that as Andrew already has a
boyfriend) and really enjoy working together. While Natalie (Leah) and
Andrew are best friends and Simon is staying at her place during the run.
Meanwhile Fiona (Sandra) is absolutely in love with the two boys and the
feelings are reciprocated. And Charles (Tony) is loved by all for his
"strangeness".

The cream on the cake is my personal relationship with the cast. I've
socialised with them all on separate occassions and learnt that Natalie is
great to play pool with (although she always whips my arse), Simon and
Charles love to party, and I mean PARTY (and of course, I do to), Andrew
enjoys a bit of gossip (I can't resist - although it's never malicious)
and
Fiona loves a good intellectual chat, hence completing the things I thrive
on.

So, I was saddened to hear of the closure of the Canterbury (UK)
performance. Beautiful Thing is a wonderful and powerful story that should
be kept alive, if for no other reason than to expose more and more people
to its rich and beautiful characters. Already, people are buying tickets
on
the strength of the film and they will bring along BT virgins.

Having the "cult" status that BT has, it is worth noting that such stories
can live on for decades (ie Rocky Horror, The Wizard of Oz, Giant, Rebel
Without A Cause, Birdy). In twenty years (when I'll be the ripe old age of
42) I expect lists such as these to still be in operation. It is a
life-changing tale that I'll never forget.

Meanwhile a Sydney critic has labelled BT a "stupid young poofter play"
before it has even open! Blasphemy! Don't worry, Make Believe Productions
has a fantastic solicitor. Also he doesn't realise that my company is
about
to purchase one of the magazines to which he is a regular contributor ...
but not for long.

Anyway, the play is going very well and I am pleased to say the BT legend
lives on - you'd all be proud!

Cheers
MICHAEL

PS. Eric, thanks for all your interest. So far your package includes press
clippings, posters and cast photos. We will also video the production
although we use PAL in Australia so unless your VCR has a PAL switch it
may
not come out that well. Why does America use NTSC? PAL is technilogically
superior - but anyway.

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:22:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Rich
Subject: Eric's Website

Eric,
You have a wonderful BT website, and I hope you'll see fit to
reopen it soon.
It's obvious you've put a lot of love, time and energy into it.
So, I know you are angry and hurt about that work being copied by
another BT fan.
I wish I knew a solution for that problem -- but all I have to
offer is my support and admiration.

Rich

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 14:01:57 MET
From: Hannes
Subject: Re: Rehearsal Update #7

Jealousy!

That is all that I feel!
I really wish that I would have been able to see this play. We
have
heard so much about it, and yet, we are continents away! <sob!>

Michael, I don't know about the others, but you can give us a
second-by-second account of the rehearsal if it were up to me! The
more news, the better! I mean, you are at the current epicenter of
BT
activity! The actual PLAY! At the moment, you ARE BT!! (sorry
for
the exclamation-marks, folks, but I'm a very emotive person!!!).

I really wish you all the best!
Hannes (Hal)
Charter SA BT fan ;)
______________________________ Reply Separator ____________________________
_____
Subject: Rehearsal Update #7
Date: 1/29/98 11:53 AM

Fellow Listers

I know, I know, I only posted the last update a couple of days ago - but
I
couldn't help myself. Last night's rehearsal was absolute bliss. A full
run
of the play with music, props and costumes. The legend that is Beautiful

Thing lives on in that rehearsal hall I'm telling you!

The chemistry between Jamie and Ste is fantastic (you can see the poster
on
Eric's fabulous website ). The dynamic
created
by actors who do not identify as straight certainly enhances the bedroom

scenes.

Another element which really helps the production is the rapport amongst

cast members. Andrew (Ste) and Simon (Jamie) are now fantastic friends
(although I don't think it goes further than that as Andrew already has
a
boyfriend) and really enjoy working together. While Natalie (Leah) and
Andrew are best friends and Simon is staying at her place during the
run.
Meanwhile Fiona (Sandra) is absolutely in love with the two boys and
the
feelings are reciprocated. And Charles (Tony) is loved by all for his
"strangeness".

The cream on the cake is my personal relationship with the cast. I've
socialised with them all on separate occassions and learnt that Natalie
is
great to play pool with (although she always whips my arse), Simon and
Charles love to party, and I mean PARTY (and of course, I do to),
Andrew
enjoys a bit of gossip (I can't resist - although it's never malicious)
and
Fiona loves a good intellectual chat, hence completing the things I
thrive
on.

So, I was saddened to hear of the closure of the Canterbury (UK)
performance. Beautiful Thing is a wonderful and powerful story that
should
be kept alive, if for no other reason than to expose more and more
people
to its rich and beautiful characters. Already, people are buying tickets
on
the strength of the film and they will bring along BT virgins.

Having the "cult" status that BT has, it is worth noting that such
stories
can live on for decades (ie Rocky Horror, The Wizard of Oz, Giant,
Rebel
Without A Cause, Birdy). In twenty years (when I'll be the ripe old age
of
42) I expect lists such as these to still be in operation. It is a
life-changing tale that I'll never forget.

Meanwhile a Sydney critic has labelled BT a "stupid young poofter play"
before it has even open! Blasphemy! Don't worry, Make Believe Productions

has a fantastic solicitor. Also he doesn't realise that my company is
about
to purchase one of the magazines to which he is a regular contributor
...
but not for long.

Anyway, the play is going very well and I am pleased to say the BT
legend
lives on - you'd all be proud!

Cheers
MICHAEL

PS. Eric, thanks for all your interest. So far your package includes
press
clippings, posters and cast photos. We will also video the production
although we use PAL in Australia so unless your VCR has a PAL switch it
may
not come out that well. Why does America use NTSC? PAL is technilogically

superior - but anyway.

--

*****************************************************