Email Archive Page 85

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:12:28 -0700
Subject: Re: btlist: When Did The Party Happen?
From: "DJK"

>From: "Gary" <
>Date: 07/07/98 18:53:56
>Subject: Re: btlist: When Did The Party Happen?
>
>DJK wrote:
>
>
>G, Can you do something for me. Tell me about Chicago. I'll tell
>you why I want to know some time but for the time being I'd
>appreciate you giving me a "as is" opinion. That is to say, minus
>the tourist blurb which I can find for myself. Have you been
>there. What's the "attitude" like? The city? The weather etc..
>Sorry, but weather fascinates me, especially when it's warm! I
>hope you bruises are healing. Never mind, they can be a reminder
>of the good times you had getting them. Who's your favourite
>character in BT. You know the more I watch it, the more I think
>Sandra is the real protagonist. Do you think there are lesbian
>overtones btwn Sandra and Leah at the end or do I have an
>over-active imagination. Don't answer that. I DO have an
>over-active imag. but I'd be interested to hear your views about
>the lovely Sandra.
>
>Hang loose (as we NEVER say in Yorkshire)
>David.
>
>
>Re your question about
>> quintessential British nightlife. Speaking as a provincial
>(though I
>> do live in a city) 32 year old has been it is true to say that
>there
>> are clubs which open when the pubs close. Many of them stay open
>> until 2 am and if you're over 25 then you tend to stick out like a
>> vicar at a tarts party.
>
>That can be a problem in some American gay clubs. In smaller cities,
>where there are only one or two gay bars, there's quite a
>cross-section
>of people and ages. In a city such as Atlanta, it's more
>specialized.
>I'm older than you, but felt I fit in at both the Armory and
>Backstreet,
>though I probably wouldn't have at Fusion. But Atlanta also has
>country-western gay bars (complete with line dancing classes!),
>lesbian-only bars, leather/levi bars and The Chamber, which is a
>fetish
>club. (Bring your favorite whip! <G>)
>
> Most people hit the clubs at the weekend
>> and though I hate to admit it the times that I do venture out
>> clubbing I tend to go to London or Paris. The clubs in the
>> provincial cities are normally overpriced, over-rate and one often
>> sticks to the carpet if you remain still for more than 30 seconds.
>> Aren't you just desperate to visit some? ;-)
>
>Oh, absolutely! :) Actually I go for the dancing and, being Pride
>weekend, the clubs Tony and I went to were absolutely packed. I
>think I
>got some bruises from flying arms.
>
>Gary

*****************************************************

From: "Jamie
Subject: Re: btlist: Thanks for the welcome!
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:55:40 PDT

Hi there William,
Thanks for your support. Maybe things will work out in the end. Once i
get a Boyfriend i will be happy. the rest can just get lost then. I
really wish i had a gay friend at school, that would be so great, but it
just isn't going to happen i don't think. :-(! I can keep on hoping
though i guess!
Thanks again,
Jamie

>Hi Jamey & all you wonderful people out there.
>
>School can be a bitch. I was lucky because I had one gay school friend
who went
>through it all with me. We were no Ste and Jamie but we had our
moments.
>
>As to my family: My mother confronted me about it too. I was 21 and I
had got
>involved with the gay group at University. I usually wore gay badges
and forgot
>to take one off before throwing a shirt in the washing. My mother
found it and
>we had the "It's probably all my fault" scene with both of us (but
mainly me)
>ending up in tears. Unlike your mum she didn't tell my father. I told
him
>myself a few years later (in retrospect I have no idea why I waited)
and he was
>okay about it. Not happy, but accepting.
>
>My mother's way of coping with it was to ignore the whole matter. It
was never
>discussed. If it came up the subject was changed. Jian and I had been
together
>for eight years before they met him and then it was over my body in
intensive
>care after a car accident. I nearly had to die before they accepted
that he even
>existed.
>
>Now they do accept him and I am getting on with them better than ever
before.
>
>My brother on the other hand has always been on side and is now
planning to
>arrange a family gathering for our tenth anniversary next year.
>
>Which is all a way of saying stick in there - things can get better. If
your
>family can't accept you then remember there are a lot of people in the
world who
>will and who will love you.
>
>William
>
>Jamie G wrote:
>
>> Hi there Tom!
>> thanks, school is so bad but it is great when you realise that it
isn't
>> just you who has to go through it all. They don't know, they just
take
>> the piss! Ok i don't go out with girls so maybe i am giving the game
>> away just a little! I am so glad i have got the internet, if i
couldn't
>> talk it through with you lot i would go mad! my mum is all right
about
>> it so i guess that is something. I live with my mum you see. Actually
>> she confronted me with it just like Sandra confronted 'Jamie' in the
>> film! I see my dad sometimes and my mum told him. He refuses to
believe
>> it, goes mad at the suggestion that his son may be a 'fucking
pufter',
>> and on the few occasions that he does see me, tries to convert me to
>> being 'A real man'! There you go.. what are dads for!
>> Speak soon,
>> Jamey
>
>

*****************************************************

From: "Jamie
Subject: Re: btlist: Poster at the Gloucester
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:16:16 PDT

Hi there Alex!
Well thanks for the info on the poster. I wish i had been there to not
only sign the poster, but to meet Linda Henry as well, could have got
here autograph, that would be cool! Oh and can i get hold of any BT
merchandise now, or did it have to be bought at the meet??
Thanks,
Jamie

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:06:37 -0400
From: MGB
Subject: Re: btlist: Thanks for the welcome!

Cheers Tom!!!! Just had to get my 2 cents worth in! I grew up in a
conservative presbyterian church and was told growing up that homosexuality is
evil. Im now 34 and just coming to terms with myself and my beliefs so I tend
to get a little defensive about it. I truly believe that God loves us all and
highly suggest that anyone out there with questions read 'What the bible really
says about homosexuality'. There is going to be a conference here this saturday
by the local mcc church on the same subject. Ill try and post what i feel may
be interesting to the group or email me if you want more info!
Hugs and kisses and all that jazz!
chichi (mgb)

tom wrote:

> To apologize and clarify myself, I do not think that Christianity is
> shite in any way.
>
> I was simply stating that my experiences with the way people interpret
> Christianity around here is way mixed up. I am a Christian and I am
> gay.
> I love God and know that he is my salvation. I also know that God wants
> me to be true to myself and not lie. That is why I came out.
>
> I Samuel 12:24 tells us that God has a plan for each of our lives and
> that his plan will not harm us. I believe that I am not a mistake. I
> am a man created by God in His image to serve and follow Him on Earth.
> He knows who I will love and they are Men.
>
> I hope this explains my POV a bit better.
>
> Love to all
>
> Tom

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:08:28 -0400
From: MGB
Subject: Re: btlist: Gay Christianity

a good site to check out!
http://www.gaychristians.org/

tom wrote:

> My friend has a great webpage about gays and Christianity
>
> I will find the link.
>
> If anyone wants it, please email me separately
>
>
> Tom

*****************************************************

From: Sven
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:55:43 EDT
Subject: Re: btlist: Thanks for the welcome!

In a message dated 7/8/98 7:09:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ep
writes:

<< Steve, tell her *You're* the right woman, looking for a great guy!! >>
I'm not ready for my inheritance yet, Eric. Good suggestion, though! =)

<<School can be a bitch.>>
Yeah, but so can we. ;-)

<<Unfortunately, there are
those who would make us believe we are some aberration in the world.>>
Oh yes there are. My mom (who is a died-in-the-world Catholic) constantly
prays out loud that her "deviant" children will find their way back home. If
I'm not around, she makes sure that I know that she has been praying. Lord
give me the strength! AAARRRGGHH!!

Love all,
Steve
(who prefers the name Shanice every now and then... imagine my mum's fancy
;-))

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:12:17 -0500
From: Brian
Subject: Some thoughts on Christianity -was- Re: btlist: Thanks for the
welcome!

Dear All,

First of all I should say that I am agnostic, but have always been
interested in religion. By 'default' I am Church of England,
I used to go to church but I never got anything out of it. I would like to
be able to believe in something but I don't. I also
find it difficult to relate to a religion that, I percieve, condems me for
who I am.

Over the years I have had a lot of conversations with Christians in which I
asked why they believed in a Christian
God, that went no where. I even attended a open forum, put on by my
university Christian Union, I think I was the only
one there not to be already converted. Then one day I had a chat with a
Christian friend, in which I was not converted
but understood a great deal more. His argument was kind of as follows...

You know that the computer in front of you is real because you can see and
touch it. You know the chair you are sitting on is real since it is
supporting you. In the same way my friend knows there is God because he is
aware of his presence.
He can't see Him or hear Him but from a different sense he can feel Him.
(Am I making sense?)

I also asked my friend how he decides what parts of the Bible's teachings
to follow, again he says God guides him.
I think this is the key. (Incidently he believes gay acts are against God's
will,
this made me quite angry but I think I understood that that is how he
understood it, but
this is not relevant to the point I am making.) I think what is important
is that, how Christians interpret the Bible is a very personal thing, and
true Christians should not condem other peoples relationship with God (or
with one another.) (My friend also believes this.) This incidently is my
main objection to Warwick University Christian Union.

Of course that does not help, the fact of people being harassed in the name
of religion. For example here in Madison
a group of churches got together to rent billboard space coming into the
town stating "Homosexuality is a Sin." What
is reasuring however, they are now far more signs around the town and in
peoples private yards (gardens) stating
"Madison supports its gay and lesbian community", and an organised boycott
of the sign writer of the billboard.
(Suggested by the mayor no less.)

Finally, I just say that I recently visited quite a few cities on the east
coast of North America, and quite by chance I was
in many places duing Pride season. I watched the march in Philadelpia and
New York, and there were many
churches in both places taking part in the march.

Attending these marches was one the reasons finally decided to join this
list. I don't think I have ever come across
such a friendly bunch of people.

Best Wishes,

Brian.

P.S. I would recommend Stephen Fry's Autobiography (well it actually only
covers the first 20 years but.. ) It is very
interesting and funny, and he has a few things to say about Homosexuality
and Christianity. It has funny title
"Mohab is my Washpot" which I think I remember reading is a quote from the
Bible. It is certainly available in
the UK and Canada, and I think I have now seen it in the US. (Despite
Random House in the U.S. denying all
knowledge about it when I enquired last year, despite the fact they had
just published it in the U.K.!)

At 23:33 08/07/98 -0700, Tom wrote:
>To apologize and clarify myself, I do not think that Christianity is
>shite in any way.
>
>I was simply stating that my experiences with the way people interpret
>Christianity around here is way mixed up. I am a Christian and I am
>gay.
>I love God and know that he is my salvation. I also know that God wants
>me to be true to myself and not lie. That is why I came out.
>
>I Samuel 12:24 tells us that God has a plan for each of our lives and
>that his plan will not harm us. I believe that I am not a mistake. I
>am a man created by God in His image to serve and follow Him on Earth.
>He knows who I will love and they are Men.
>
>I hope this explains my POV a bit better.
>
>Love to all
>
>Tom

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:44:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald
Subject: Re: btlist: When Did The Party Happen?

As a Canadian, we seem to be more Americanized than like our mother
country of England. But, I liked Trainspotting so well, I've taped it off
the Movie Chanel. Brit humor is fantistic too. The sitcoms, The Vicar of
Dibley and Father Ted are two of the best. I also like Waiting for God and
Last of the Summer Wine. I get all these shows from an American Public
Broadcasting Station.

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Gary wrote:

> Jamie G wrote:
>
> > I don't think so. Maybe American english has filtered into England more
> > than English english had filtered into America! If you understand what i
> > mean! Mind you i am not a great fan of American films at all so what
> > would i know! I understand that Americans had difficulty understanding
> > 'Trainspotting' too so it isn't just BT.
>
> I've seen "Trainspotting," and I wouldn't be surprised if some British
> folks might not have trouble understanding it. :) (Although I don't
> really need to _understand_ Ewan MacGregor - just seeing him is enough.
> <G>)
>
> I showed BT to my summer film class and I also gave them copies of the
> slang translation list to help them along.
> --

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:47:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald
Subject: Re: btlist: When Did The Party Happen?

If you lived in Buffalo, then you know that Buffao gets ten times the snow
that falls in neighbouring Ontario. And there were places in the sunny US
taht got snow this year while we were suffering the heat of an early
summer. We're probably just loyal and don't believe in war or beating up
on banana republics.

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Gary wrote:

> Donald Norton wrote:
> >
> > If they lost the Empire, why did Canada stick with the Mother country? Yet
> > we're as much like the yanks as they (you) are like themselves. But, y'all
> > talks like a confederate. (VVBG).
> >
> The Canadians probably wanted to revolt, but maybe it was too cold and
> snowy to do so. <G>
>
> Gary
> who grew up along the US-Canadian border amidst a _lot_ of snow
> --

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:52:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald
Subject: Re: btlist: When Did The Party Happen?

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, CARMEN wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Gary wrote:
>
> > Donald wrote:
> > >
> > > If they lost the Empire, why did Canada stick with the Mother country? Yet
> > > we're as much like the yanks as they (you) are like themselves. But, y'all
> > > talks like a confederate. (VVBG).
> > >
> > The Canadians probably wanted to revolt, but maybe it was too cold and
> > snowy to do so. <G>
>
> Who? Us?????? About the only country *we* want to revolt from is the US!
> I mean... you know what they say...
> There's absolutely *no* difference between Canadians and Americans....
>
>
>
>
> .....and the fastest was to identify a Canadian is to say exactly
> that! *grin*
>
> Tory (one o' them Qweebeker types...La Belle Province! :-)) )
>
>
>
You be careful when you admit that you are a loyal Canadian in anti-Canada
Quebec. But as a canadian, I'll fight to the death, if necessary, to see
La belle province, reamin part of this magnificant country.

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:06:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald
Subject: Re: btlist: Thanks for the welcome!

One of the Anglican Diocese in British Columbia, Canada, has passed a
motion to grant a marriage licence to same sex couples. As A licenced lay
minister, the Anglican Church has a realistic dialogue on Homosexuality
and welcomes gays into our churches. The dialogue was started by the
Primate of Canada by Archbishop Michael Peers. By the way, he has a gay
son. We believe that we're all born in God's image and God is neither male
or female, white or black. He/she is mother, sister, father , brother,
friend and so on. We should teach love and harmony and not hate and
division.
I'll get off my soapbox now.

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, MGB wrote:

> Not to get too defensive here, but some of us believe that you can be a
> christian and a homosexual. Check out the gay best selling list (at least in
> Outwrite in Atlanta!) and youll find What the Bible Really Says About
> Homosexuality by Daniel A. Helminiak, PhD. Some of us dont think it is all
> 'shite'.
>
> Chichi gets off his soapbox now!
>
> MGB
>
> tomboyer wrote:
>
> > Hey y'all
> >
> > Especially to Jamey:
> >
> > I went to a Private Christian School in Indiana for all my life and went
> > to a Christian college for a year. It's tough dealing with all the
> > shite
> > that a lot of people at school put you through.
> >
> > I still have run-ins with my family but it gets better once you have
> > other gay friends.
> >
> > Tom
> >

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:10:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald
Subject: Re: btlist: Thanks for the welcome!

It's just that so many of the evangelists take sentences out of context
(scripture) and use it to their own benefit to preach hate. It isn't bad
enough to not allow blacks into some churches in the southern US but they
have to find others to preach about. I too am a gay christian and well
accepted in the Anglican church especially in youth work.

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, tom wrote:

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:15:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald
Subject: Re: btlist: BT on Video

Just a bit off the same BT, but does anybody remember the movie, "The Boys
In The Band". Or even the book?

On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, William wrote:

> Neil
>
> Thanks for the offer.
>
> I'll try the pages you mention and see what I can find. If I can't get anywhere
> I'll get back to you.
>
> Thanks
>
> William
>
> Neil wrote:
>
> > William,
> >
> > If ordering from the UK, have a look at:
> >
> > http://www.hmv.co.uk
> > http://www.musicshop.co.uk
> > http://www.videoshop.co.uk
> >
> > Alternatively, I could buy it and post it on to you.
> >
> > Neil.
> >
>

*****************************************************

Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 21:37:10 -0500
From: Gary
Subject: Re: btlist: When Did The Party Happen?

Donald wrote:
>
> If you lived in Buffalo, then you know that Buffao gets ten times the snow
> that falls in neighbouring Ontario. And there were places in the sunny US
> taht got snow this year while we were suffering the heat of an early
> summer. We're probably just loyal and don't believe in war or beating up
> on banana republics.

Actually, I grew up in Rochester along Lake Ontario. We got some
Canadian TV reception and Canadian radio as well. I got hooked on ice
hockey listening to Saturday night "Hockey Night in Canada" broadcasts
on CBL in Toronto.

Here in Jackson, TN, we get about an inch of snow per winter, if any at
all. I've kind of grown used to it, although I still follow the Montreal
Canadiens and the Buffalo Sabres with a passion and I'm really looking
forward to the arrival of the NHL expansion Nashville Predators this
coming season. Nashville is just over two hours east of here.

Today I'm enjoying the cooling off of temperatures. Yesterday was about
100. Right now - about 9 p.m. - it's only about 97. :)

Gary
--

*****************************************************

From: "Kent ."
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Christianity -was- Re: btlist: Thanks for
the welcome!
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:59:20 PDT

My two cents:

I was raised Catholic, always went to Catholic schools (even a Catholic
University, but this was run by Jesuits-- who were very "left wing"
theologically, and it was the 70's, so maybe that one doesn't count!
:)), my brother was a priest... religion and Catholicism was always
"big" in the Roberts household, still... I feel I am a Christian
*because of the teachings of Jesus Christ*, who as we all know said this
about homosexuality:

Unless, maybe, you want to mention that "Love one another" dictum (and I
do)! I could care less what the Old Testament says about homosexuality
(assuming those passages talk about it in truth at all), it is the
essential part of the New Testament-- the "Good News" (the Gospels);
that is what matters to me. I am NOT a "Levitican", a "Paulist", nor
(for you fans of Medieval homophobes) an "Aquinan", and so what
Leviticus says, or Paul says to the Romans, or Thomas Aquinas writes
matters not a whit to me. Christianity should be centered on the
message of Christ, I feel-- all else is, at best, secondary.

Apologies to believers of other Faiths (Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc.)
and no Faiths, too!

Kent

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:11:58 +1000
From: Andy
Subject: btlist: [UPDTE] BT-Stories Fan Fiction Archive

Hello Beutiful Thing Fans,

This week at the BT-Stories Fan Fiction Archive we are proud to announce
yet another series that you will find enjoyable for weeks to come. Veteran
BT-Stories writer Sandra has submitted the first of "My Version of the PFL
Scene". For those not up on there BT knowledge, PFL is the Peppermint Foot
Lotion scene (scene 50) of the screenplay and Act 1-Scene 5 of the
stageplay.

Jean's continues with her vignettes from scene 82 of the screenplay. "The
Gloucester" is EXCLUSIVE to the BT-Stories web site as it has never been
posted to the mailing list! This week read #4.

New writer William has submitted two stories for his debut, "Nolene?" and
"Jamie". These two are also based on scenes from the screenplay.

Kent has written a story called "Interior Monologue" based around scene 86.

And finally, Graham (who likes to go by the name Gray) has reached the end
of his series "The Club". Read part 17 and hope for a happy ending!

There are a few stories that didn't make it to the Archive this week. I
hope to catchup with the backlog during the coming week.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to all those who went shopping in the BT-Stories Bookstore. From all
the "link-thru's" there have been about three sales of books so far,
bringing my referral fees to a grand total of $1.77. (They're cheap
books!!!)
I hope to have the Video available soon, when it's released. (NB. this will
be the US NTSC version)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks also to everyone who took the time to sign the BT-Stories guestbook.
I know the writers (and me) really appreciate the feedback from those whose
aren't on the stories mailing list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

As I didn't get around to typing out an update last week, I think I've
ommitted my congratulations to Andre and his Dutch Beautiful Thing Fan Club
web site for winning a "Totally Cool Queer Site Award".
http://www.rainbowzone.com/Awards/Info/honour.shtml

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Stats:

Visitors: 2104
Guestbook: 18
Stories: 37

Happy reading everyone,
Love Andy. xxx

*****************************************************

From: DLawr
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:15:35 EDT
Subject: Re: btlist: BT on Video

Hi Donald

I've never seen the film or read the book of 'The Boys in the Band', but I
did see a production of the play which was on in London earlier this year. It
was on at a little venue called the King's Head Theatre, but it then
transferred to the West End and ran for a few months. I didn't really think a
lot of the play. Like a lot of gay-themed plays, it just seemed to be a lot of
heart-searching, with a few camp lines thrown in for good measure. It didn't
help that the 'American' accents of the actors seemed to be flying backwards
and forwards across the Atlantic at random! (This is something that worries me
about when I go to see the Chicago production of 'Beautiful Thing' as well!)
It reminded me of another film that i saw at about the same time: 'Love!
Valour! Compassion!' which, again, I found a bit heavy-handed. Still, it's
good to see gay-themed plays making it to the West End, in any case.

In my limited experience, it's the sort of play that Jonathan Harvey writes a
lot better - if you've seen or read 'Rupert Street Lonely Hearts Club' or
'Boom Bang-a-Bang', they are much more satisfying. I'm looking forward to
seeing 'Rupert Street...' at Edinburgh this Summer. I think that the problem
with plays like 'BITB' and 'LVC' is that they tend to double underline all the
emotions, in case we didn't get it the first time. To my sensitive European
ears, it just comes across as histrionics!
When the play was on in London, I did see a copy of the video of the film of
'Boys in the Band' in the theatre bookshop at the National Theatre, so it must
still be in existence. I considered buying it at the time, to see if it was
better than the play, but I didn't.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings!

David

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:04:30 -0500
From: Gary
Subject: Re: btlist: BT on Video

DLawr wrote:
>
> Hi Donald
>
> I've never seen the film or read the book of 'The Boys in the Band', but I
> did see a production of the play which was on in London earlier this year. It
> was on at a little venue called the King's Head Theatre, but it then
> transferred to the West End and ran for a few months. I didn't really think a
> lot of the play. Like a lot of gay-themed plays, it just seemed to be a lot of
> heart-searching, with a few camp lines thrown in for good measure.

Everyone should view the video (or see a theater production) of "Boys in
the Band." Why? Because it shows (a) how things once were and (b) how
far things have come. BITB premiered in the late 60s and, as a film, in
1970. It was considered extremely daring for the time. As Stonewall led
to the gay rights movement, it became fashionable to look upon "Boys" as
an old-fashioned piece of self-hate and gay stereotypes. And it _is_
full of both.

Yet, as playwrite Mark Crowley points out, that's the way things were
for gay men, at least many of them, in the pre-Stonewall era. Today
there are revivals of the play and the video is readily available from
most any online video source and many video rental stores.

In fact, many people still see it as contemporary. Oh, some things have
definitely changed, but there are still most of us who can recognize
some of the characters in either our friends or ourselves.

It's not an easy play or movie to watch, especially if you're gay. But
it's one of those things I think we all _need_ to watch.

> It reminded me of another film that i saw at about the same time:
'Love!
> Valour! Compassion!' which, again, I found a bit heavy-handed. Still, it's
> good to see gay-themed plays making it to the West End, in any case.

"LVC" (it's too long a name to write out each time <G>) raises some of
the same issues as "Boys" and created some of the same controversy. Many
younger gays thought it too stereotyped. In fact, some straight friends
of mine asked me if I wasn't offended by the portrayal of the character
that Jason Alexander portrayed in the film, since he was the
stereotypical, Broadway musical-worshiping, Judy Garland-adoring,
limp-wristed, female pronoun-using _queen_ that many of us would like to
believe doesn't exist anymore. Yet "LVC" lets us see beneath his
character and into a lot of areas that are probably in some of our
lives. Also, since the characters are early to late middle-aged, they
also show us a generation that didn't grow up with openly gay rock stars
and gay-themed films on cable.

Jonathan Harvey has given us a gay story for our times, a tale of gay
youth in the 1990s. BT would have been a different play if Harvey had
written it in the early 80s or early 70s instead of the early 90s. I
think that movies like "Boys in the Band" or "Love! Valour! Compassion!"
serve to bring the value of films like BT into focus and they also give
us a sense of our place in history, of how far we've come and how far we
as individuals need to go.

Gary
--

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:12:29 -0700
Subject: Re: btlist: Thanks for the welcome!
From: "DJK"

Gary/Tom,

I was going to reply to your "shite" and "christianity" discussion
and then decided not to. Now I have changed my mind again. I would
describe myself as a religious person though my beliefs would fit
uncomfortably with a traditional catholic (in the widest sense of
the term) or any formal religious teachings for that matter.
Briefly, my point is this, and it is directly relevent to BT: the
gay community has forged its own path throughout the centuries
surviving often petty small-minded persecution and even greater
persecutions (WWII by the nazis). I think the strength many gay
people share finds its roots in this persecution and their strong
sense of humanity. Whether God is responsible for humans and/or the
humanity/inhumanity that is part of it I have absolutely no idea. I
do know that wonderful, intelligent caring and loving beings are the
foundation for making life tolerable and gays have made a crucial
and often unrecognised contribution. This is part of what I find
in BT. We witness the petty small-mindedness (Ste's father and
brother), abuse in J's schoolbooks but the film is (thankfully)
devoid of the often, indeed inevitably futile discussion about God's
view of homosexuality and regligious teachings on the matter. If
humanity takes a leaf out of the book of gay history then I think
we'll be well on the way to living in a better and more tolerant
society. What more could any divine "being", God if you like, want?

Vive la diff�rence! and down with normality!

Sorry if I sound like I'm preaching and please don't take any
offence. I have no desire to attack or place doubt oupon anybody's
religious beliefs.

David (I feel terrible now, sorry)

>From: "Gary"
>Date: 09/07/98 08:37:02
>Subject: Re: btlist: Thanks for the welcome!
>
>tom wrote:
>>
>> To apologize and clarify myself, I do not think that Christianity
>is
>> shite in any way.
>>
>> I was simply stating that my experiences with the way people
>interpret
>> Christianity around here is way mixed up. I am a Christian and I
>am
>> gay.
>> I love God and know that he is my salvation. I also know that
>God wants
>> me to be true to myself and not lie. That is why I came out.
>>
>> I Samuel 12:24 tells us that God has a plan for each of our lives
>and
>> that his plan will not harm us. I believe that I am not a
>mistake. I
>> am a man created by God in His image to serve and follow Him on
>Earth.
>> He knows who I will love and they are Men.
>>
>> I hope this explains my POV a bit better.
>>
>"I am not a mistake." That about says it all. Unfortunately, there
>are
>those who would make us believe we are some aberration in the world.
>
>That's another "beautiful thing" about Beautiful Thing: it shows
>love as
>natural and necessary. It's so affirming.
>
>Gary

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:22:01 -0700
From: Jenny
Subject: btlist: About me

Hello everyone, I just joined this list about an hour ago. Let me start
off by introducing myself. My name is Jenny Jo and I am 16 years old.
I am born and raised in the US (Washington State), but have hopes
of maybe traveling to Europe when I get older.
I am an active member of many (too many) mailing lists, and I own one
about actor Ryan Phillippe. It was on this list that I first heard
about the movie Beautiful Thing. One of the guys mentioned that Ryan
would've been good in Beautiful Thing, but I had no idea what the movie
was about. I know Ryan Smith who owns a web site, and has one section
called Beautiful Thing @ The Rest Stop. I decided to go there and find
out more about the movie, and I knew instantly that I had to see it; it
just sounded like such a beautiful story. To my luck, I saw that it was
going to be playing on the Sundance Channel about a week and a half
after I found out about it being on TV. All I could think about that
whole week (even at school) was how much I wanted it to be Friday.
Finally Friday came, and I sat back and watched the movie, and loved
it. I recorded it, so I literally watched it every day or night, and
became addicted. The movie was all I expected and more; it was truly
about love.
The performances were amazing. Scott Neal and Glen Berry had such great
chemistry; I was completely blown away by them. The way they looked
into each others eyes throughout the whole movie was so great.
What really got me was how romantic this movie really was. Jamie
rubbing the Peppermint Foot Lotion into Ste's back; the little kiss that
Jamie gave Ste; Jamie 'touching' Ste; the kiss in the woods; I just
loved it all.
It took me awhile to realize the real reason why I was obsessed with
this movie, and I came to the conclusion that Jamie and I are the same
person. The only major difference between us is that I am not gay.
But, like Jamie, I am in love with one of my neighbors; which I didn't
realize until a few days ago. I take every chance I have in front of me
to stare at him; and I think about him all day long. Ste is like Lane
in a lot of ways. They are both very athletic (Lane plays soccer and
baseball); and very popular. And I am a lot like Jamie. I am very shy
and very unpopular, and not very athletic. Although I do play soccer
(have for 10 years), I am not all that great at it, and wouldn't class
myself in the athletic group.
I feel like Lane and I are soul mates; like I said before, he plays
soccer and baseball, and I play soccer and softball. We both like scary
movies; we both love dogs; and we have many other similarities.
The only problem is, like I said before, I am VERY shy, and would never
be able to express my true feelings to Lane. Sometimes I cry myself to
sleep knowing what would've been if I could just not be so damn shy.
Sometimes I cry myself to sleep thinking about how much I love Lane. He
is going to be coming to my high school next year (he is going to be a
freshman, and I am going to be a junior), so it will be hard.
Anyway, this isn't supposed to be some stupid sob story, so I will just
leave it there. I am looking forward to talking to you all, and hearing
your opinions about Beautiful Thing.

See ya,
Jenny

*****************************************************

From: "Alex
Subject: Re: btlist: Poster at the Gloucester
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:25:18 PDT

Hi Jamie and welcome to the list! (is this your real name?)

Well, last June some of us (from UK, Italy, Germany, Spain, Canada, US,
Holland, ..) met in London for the anniversary of BT.
It was great!!!
We visited most of the places where BT was filmed, including Thamesmead
and Jamie,Ste and Lea flats, the Gloucester pub in Greenwhich and we
also took the 180 bus!!!!
We spent the night at the Goucester and we all signed a BT poster for
the owner of the pub. Seeing that I was again in London last week I went
there and saw it on the wall!!!

By the way, are you from UK ?

Let me know (please, just replying to my address so to help avoiding
huge amount of mails for the rest of the group!)

Love

Alex

*****************************************************

From: Sven
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:00:43 EDT
Subject: Re: btlist: About me

Welcome to the list, Jenny Jo. I'm sure you'll love it here. Say, what part
of Washington State are you in? I'm in Spokane.
:)
Steve

*****************************************************

From: "Gray"
Subject: btlist: RE: About me
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:13:46 +0100

Hello Jenny Jo

It's been quite the week for new members, a few joined early on this =
week and I would like to welcome *you* to a list where you'll find a lot =
of 'Beautiful People', and you'll make loads of friends real soon, so a =
big HELLO to Jenny Jo. :-)

Later

Gray

*****************************************************

From: ep
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:25:40 -0400
Subject: btlist: Website

Hi All,

It has just come to my attention that the GuestBook/Message Board on my
website has NOT been working for the past several weeks. It has now been
fixed, so "Knock Away, Marybeth! Knock Away!" :-)

-Eric

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:30:02 -0400
From: "Keith
Subject: btlist: Video release

Hey all,

I finally got my own (legal) copy of BT on video!!! Now I have an excuse to watch it this
weekend, and see what else I missed in it last time, and if I can figure out this time-line
of events regarding the party.

Off course I also just bought a CD of Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits, so I'm not sure what
that says about my taste.

And to Gary - You really put it beautifully about the need to watch many of these gay-themed
movies, and also (which you didn't mention) attend Pride Events, etc. For many of us too
young to remember Stonewall (I was 2) we need to remember and learn what other have gone
through so that we can do the things we do today. We need to maintain a sense of our
community, and just like any other community, we need to know of our history, and the things
that unify us , and separate us from other groups, whether it be culture,religion,arts,
dress, whatever. When we maintain a sense of community, it not only provides internal
support, but also forces others to accept (or at least deal with) us as a united group, not
just some fringe element. As horrible as it is, I think AIDS is another such unifying force,
and has actually led to greater awarenenss and closeness in the gay community.

I'd like to think that someday, we will be just another group in the vast, multicultured world
of different views and ways of life, accepted as being different in our own way, but
equal.

Keith

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:01:17 -0700
From: Jenny Jo
Subject: btlist: RE: About me

Well, I have two messages to respond to, so I decided to put them both
into one email.
First of all, thank you very much Gray and Steve for the welcome; I love
it here already. :-) I am very glad to be here.
I have to let you all know something; I am very opinionated sometimes
(my worst trait), and if I EVER say something that offends or hurts
anyone, please tell me.

Thanks again,
Jenny Jo

P.S.: Steve, it's cool that you live in Spokane; I live in Seattle.

Gray wrote:

> Hello Jenny Jo It's been quite the week for new members, a few joined
> early on this week and I would like to welcome *you* to a list where
> you'll find a lot of 'Beautiful People', and you'll make loads of
> friends real soon, so a big HELLO to Jenny Jo. :-) Later Gray
>
>
>
> Welcome to the list, Jenny Jo. I'm sure you'll love it here. Say,
> what part
> of Washington State are you in? I'm in Spokane.
> :)
> Steve
>

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:16:16 -0500
From: Gary
Subject: Re: btlist: Video release

Keith wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I finally got my own (legal) copy of BT on video!!! Now I have an excuse to watch it this
> weekend, and see what else I missed in it last time, and if I can figure out this time-line
> of events regarding the party.
>
Or, better yet, just wallow in enjoying it. <G> I bought the video
release for $75 from my favorite local video store last May (1997),
especially so I could use it in my summer film class. Last month, I
taped it six times off of Sundance Channel, giving one copy to my dear
friend (and Atlanta Pride travelling companion), Tony.

> Off course I also just bought a CD of Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits, so I'm not sure what
> that says about my taste.

Hey, there's probably nothing gay-er than that CD. :)

> And to Gary - You really put it beautifully about the need to watch many of these gay-themed
> movies, and also (which you didn't mention) attend Pride Events, etc. For many of us too
> young to remember Stonewall (I was 2) we need to remember and learn what other have gone
> through so that we can do the things we do today.

Hope the regular BT-fans don't consider this too off-topic, but let me
give you a first-person example of what we once went through.

Two weeks ago Tony and I boogied away the night until four a.m. at two
different _huge_ gay dance clubs in Atlanta.

But, back in 1970, one year after Stonewall, I was at an Atlanta gay
club that had a small dance floor (and a jukebox, no DJ) but dancing
wasn't legal because (a) the club did not have a dance permit and you
needed to serve food in order to have one (!) and (b) the city wasn't
going to give a dance permit to a gay bar.

Well, we danced anyhow with someone keeping a lookout for police raids.
The dance area of the bar was in the back room. One night we were
alerted that the police were about to raid and the friendly bartender
helped my friend and I slip out the back way behind the bar itself. We
made it through the door just as they came into the dance area. I ran
across the gravel parking lot and fell once, getting up quickly to run
to my car down the block.

As I arrived at my apartment, a few blocks away, I caught my breath and
felt something sticky on my hands as they held the steering wheel. I
turned on the light and realized my hands were bleeding all over from
cuts from the gravel and there was blood all over the steering wheel.

But at least the blood could be washed off better than a police record
could have been. Imagine having a permanent police record - for
committing the crime of _dancing_.

Yeah, that's how it once was. Never again. Never again.

Gary
--

*****************************************************

From: "Kent ."
Subject: Gay Living History 101 (Was: Re: btlist: Video release)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:29:35 PDT

Hi!

Thank you, Gary, for those two wonderful posts, about the importance of
old gay movies and especially, your own personal tale of How It Used To
Be. It is so remarkable to learn that the world of freedom we all
experience now was something totally alien to everybody gay, and *not
that long ago*.

In honor of two of my best friends, whose 32nd Anniversary today is (no
lie!), I would like to add something to Gary's description of the former
perils of Gay Dancing, and how they could be avoided. My friends have
told me that they remember being in gay bars similar to the one Gary
described, where even dancing-- any touching at all, really-- was a
reason for arrest. The bar had a red light near the darkened door, and
if any couples were dancing and the red light went on, it meant someone
new was coming in. Since you never knew who the person was-- and it
could very well be a cop to "raid" the place-- as soon as the red light
went on, all the couples had to "break", stop the dancing.

One of my first openly-gay experiences is the pleasure and excitement I
had dancing for the very first time with another guy, out on the street
(it was in the daytime also), outside NYC's Gay Activist's Alliance
Firehouse on Wooster Street in 1973 or so... It was a very radical
thing to be doing then.

Contrast that real past with the way we can now be ourselves in (and,
increasingly, *outside of*) gay clubs and think nothing of it; and
especially, contrast this with the Ultimate Freedom of teens Jamie and
Ste, to be able to dance (just the two of them, declaring their gayness
for the world to see) in the open, in broad daylight, arms circling each
other in love, at the finale of BT. Maybe that contrast between the
reality of What Was, and the Fairytale-like ending to what, in BT, Could
Be, is why that scene is so powerful to me!

Kent

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:56:30 -0400
From: Eric
Subject: btlist: THUD!

Thanks to both Ian and Hannes, we have some lovely additions to the website.

Magazine section: The Guardian, and Out

Pix: Scott's page (top row last picture), and Scenes page (next to last
row... last picture)

See! Jonathan with Bleach Blonde Hair!
See! Scott looking cute as ever!
See! Scott Nude! (heh, heh, just kidding, Sandra!!) ;-)
Read! More stuff than you even care about! :-)

Enjoy,
Eric
and of course, there's more to come!

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:52:05 +1000
From: Andy
Subject: Re: btlist: Video release

Keith wrote:
>I finally got my own (legal) copy of BT on video!!! Now I have an excuse to
>watch it this weekend, and see what else I missed in it last time,...

I think many of us started out by copying a rental version of BT with the
later hope of purchasing it when it came available commercially. It's kinda
like copying software off a friend. Being a Macintosh user, and watching
Apple go down the gurgler last year, I felt compelled to buy my own copy of
their new operating system when it was released. I have the same attitude
towards the BT video. By buying the video I increase sales of the product
(and in an indirect way) I'm thanking those who made it all possible
(Jonathan, Hettie, Channel 4, the cast, etc...).

>Off course I also just bought a CD of Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits, so
>I'm not
>sure what that says about my taste.
>

Keith, I can just imagine you wizzing around the lounge room to that
Cocacobana tune!!

BTW, the email archive is looking great. I found some interesting posts
there along with a few humourous posts. Thanks.

Love Andy.

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:56:39 -0400
From: MGB
Subject: Re: btlist: The parents :-)

No mention of either, tim. sorry!
MGB

Tim wrote:

> Hey guys...me again :-)
>
> I know in the movie version of BT not too much was said about Jamie's dad
> and I dont think anything was said at all about Ste's mother. I was just
> wondering (since I havent seen the play) if the stage version mentioned what
> happened to the parents.
>
> Thank alot,
> -Tim
>

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:13:51 +1000
From: William
Subject: Re: btlist: THAT PARTY & ROOM LAYOUT

Eric & Joshy

A final note on bedrooms. Have you noticed that Leah's bedroom has the
same layout as Trevor & Ste's.

William

*****************************************************

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: TJ
Subject: btlist: Fwd: Chicago Hotels for BT Production

Hey BT'ers--

Last call for Chicago hotel rooms on August 8-9. The hotels listed are
literally booked. I still have three rooms available (at $72/Sat., $63/Sun)
at the Day's Inn Gold Coast. Each room has one double bed ($4./nite for a
second person sharing the room).

If no one else stakes a claim by July 18th, I will cancel the remaining rooms.

Hope some of you are able to make travel arrangements to the Windy City for
the final performance of this BT production, you will not regret it! :-)

TJ
note: forwarded msg attached.

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:01:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: TJ
Subject: Chicago Hotels for BT Production

BT Fans-

You've heard much discussion on the phenomenal Chicago production of
Beautiful Thing at the Famous Door Theatre:

http://xochi.tezcat.com/~fdoor/BeautifulThing.html

Some folks have asked about hotel accommodations, as one can imagine
there are hundreds to choose from. I've checked out a couple
reasonably priced options. The three that seem to be in walking
distance and under $100/night are as follows:

Day's Inn
1816 N. Clark Street at Lincoln
312 664-3045 or 800 329-7466

Day's Inn
646 W. Diversey Pkwy at Clark
312 525-7010 or 800 329-7466

Comfort Inn
601 W. Diversey at Clark Street
312 348-2810 or 800 221-2222

Unfortunately they fill quickly, so I'd encourage you, if you're even
thinking about it, to BOOK your room now. They have a cancellation
policy that is NO charge, if cancelled 48 hours before check-in. To
be safe, on the night of Saturday, August 8th (closing weekend), we're
holding four rooms (one for my partner & I and the other three are
available to whoever asks-while they last). The daily rate is $72.
plus tax [Day's Inn on Clark & Lincoln].

If you're looking for days that you know other hearty-loyal BT
listservers will be there, on July 25th Jay from Chicago, Eric from
New York and Jan & I (from Milwaukee) will be going {Jay and Eric are
going the 26th too}.

On August 8th and 9th, Jay, Jan & I (again), and Jeffo from Omaha are
going. Alex from Kansas City and Michael from Columbus, GA are strong
maybe's (a few other out-of-staters are trying to get travel
plans/days off together in order to attend the finale weekend).

The Chicago play ends August 9th.

Hope some of you can trek from wherever to see it (us) in the flesh!

Regards,

*****************************************************

From: "Joshua
Subject: btlist: RE: The room layouts...
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:32:23 -0400

My thoughts on the fact that Leah, Ste and Trevor had the same room layouts
was that they had gotten the "front" bedroom which we see Sandra in. This
being the smaller room, and the fact that Leah's mum had the same room Jamie
had, led me to believe that Jamie had been given the "master bedroom" in
order to make him feel better about something we may not know about, or that
his mum didn't want such a large room. I don't know. I just assumed from
what I'd seen that all the flats were laid out the same and that Trevor and
Ste had the room next to Sandra's. Since Leah's flat was a bit further back
than Jamie and Sandra's, she really only bordered with the room of the other
couple. Well that must be confusing for most of you... hehehe

Well I think that since the movie couldn't possibly be exactly like the
play, I'm guessing that wherever it was mentioned that they slept close
together was in the flats you'd find in the taller buildings. I think the
fact that there had been a last-minute change to the other flats (which
appear in the film) made it impossible to be the way they'd described it in
the play.

Okay? =o)

Sorry to have brought it up and confused everyone!

Love,
Joshy

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:59:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald
Subject: Re: btlist: The parents :-)

One more movie to think about and remember was The Gay Deceivers. The
Vietnam War era I believe. How to stay out of required military service.

On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, MGB wrote:

> No mention of either, tim. sorry!
> MGB
>
> Tim wrote:
>
> > Hey guys...me again :-)
> >
> > I know in the movie version of BT not too much was said about Jamie's dad
> > and I dont think anything was said at all about Ste's mother. I was just
> > wondering (since I havent seen the play) if the stage version mentioned what
> > happened to the parents.
> >
> > Thank alot,
> > -Tim
> >

*****************************************************

Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:08:26 -0400
From: Eric
Subject: Re: btlist: The parents :-)

At 09:56 PM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>No mention of either, tim. sorry!
>MGB

Shame on you ChiChi!! The play *does* mention Jamie's dad... though not
what happened to him. Sandra claims that she has called in to one of those
"Crime Stopper" type shows because she thought she recognized Jamie's
father picture on the incident desk as a robber. That's the only mention of
him in the play.

-Eric

*****************************************************

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