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>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:16:53 -0800

>From: Mike

>Subject: Coming out, et. al. (was: Re: Introduction to myself)

>

>Manuel,

>

>Thank you for posting such a heart-felt introduction. And thanks to Alex,

Todd, Robert, and Taiyed for picking up the thread and speaking from the

heart as well.

>

>This is what I would like to see this list become. A place where those of

us who have been touched by Beautiful Thing can bring some of those feelings

into our lives, sharing them with others -- however far apart we may be

geographically.

>

>I may very well be the oldest person on this list (I'll be 50 next January)

and have been "out" for a very long time. But in my experience, "coming out"

is not something one does once, but does many times over and over again.

Sometimes these "coming out" moments are big and powerful. Other times they

are small, hardly noticed, even by one's self. Posting to this list is an

act of "coming out".

>

>Beautiful Thing touched me very deeply. I identified with both Jamie and

Ste. And it helped me remember what it felt like to be that age -- the

uncertainties, the longings, the decision to accept what one is (as best one

can) and to make a place for one's self in a world that is painfully less

than ideal.

>

>As I see it, "coming out to one's self," by which I mean beginning to

accept the fact that I am gay, is often the biggest and most important step.

As a boy, not even a teenager, I felt myself attracted to other boys. In

those days the word "gay" had either not been invented or existed in a world

far removed from the rural heartland of the USA, where I grew up. These

feelings were very frightening to me and I was afraid to let other boys know

about them. But, at the same time, there was quite a bit of "playing around"

going on (some that I knew of, more that I didn't and only learned of years

later). Even though I participated in this a bit, for me it was different

than it was for the other boys.

>

>It wasn't until I was near Jamie and Ste's age that I began to understand

what this difference was. I begun to understand that what made me different

was not only that I was turned on sexually by guys, but also that I could

"fall in love" with them.

>

>The first time this happened I was only fourteen years old. I was with a

friend of mine, Keith, who was in my class at school. Keith was really cute

(to me) with ears that stuck out funny. He was playful and fun. We were in

the Boy Scouts together, too, and on this occasion our troop was off on some

camping trip. After dinner, Keith and I went for a walk by ourselves as the

sun was setting. As we were walking through the woods, looking out at the

clounds and farm land from the top of a grassy hill, Keith said something

like, "Isn't this beautiful? Someday I want to own a piece of land like

this..."

>

>Well, I don't know how to tell you what happened to me at that moment. I

just fell completely in love with the boy right there on the spot. It wasn't

just that I wanted to touch him, it was something much deeper. No one I

knew, least of all another boy, had ever expressed such things to me before.

I, too, loved the beauty of the sky and earth, but I certainly never TOLD

anyone about it. Now here was Keith, this beautiful boy with dark eyes and

big ears, and it just came pouring out of him so naturally, so purely,

without any reservation or forethought on his part.

>

>At that moment Keith evoked something very powerful and very deep in me.

For the first time I felt the wonder and beauty not only of the earth and

sky but of another human being. I was struck dumb by these feelings, they

were so intense, so strong. I wanted to DO something -- but what? I didn't

know what to do and I was much to shy to do what I WANTED to do -- touch

him, hold him, kiss him, get naked in the grass with him, become one with

the earth and sky with him. You get the picture. . .

>

>Well, nothing like that ever happened between Keith and I. Interestingly,

though, a year or so later Keith put the moves on me one day in the locker

room at school. We had just gotten dressed in our gym shorts and T-shirts

and all the other guys had gone (we were often the last to get dressed). I

was leaning back against a table talking with him when Keith came up to me,

put his arms around me and pressed his groin into mine and kissed me on the

lips!!

>

>Well, it was like a fantasy come true. I couldn't believe it. At the same

time it shocked the shit out of me and scarred me. I just froze. Every

synapse in my teenage brain shorted out! I must have turned glorious shades

of red.

>

>And poor Keith. He had no idea what was going on in my head -- or rather,

what he probably THOUGHT was going on in my head was just the OPPOSITE of

what was ACTUALLY going on in my head. He pulled back from me and hurried

out the door and we never spoke of this little incident. At first I was too

stunned by it. Even the next day I couldn't believe it had actually happened

-- did I dream that? No, it happened all right. But from then on Keith

steered clear of me.

>

>A couple months later my parents moved and I began going to school in

another state. I only saw Keith a couple times during the summers. In my

senior year in high school I managed to get him alone up in my room where I

tried to let him know (without having the guts to actually say what I meant

or do anything physical about it) that, well, hey I'm queer. He either

didn't get it or didn't want to get it. In any case, nothing happened. I

went off to college in the big city: Sex, Drugs and Rock'n Roll. Keith got

married and became a motorcycle cop!

>

>I share this shaggy dog story because I think one of the most difficult

things to get a handle on is the difference between sex on the one hand and

emotional involvement on the other. It's quite screwy and I don't know that

I have it all sorted out for myself even now. (I believe it is screwy for

everyone, gay or straight, but it is especially screwy if you're gay in a

homophobic culture.) I can tell you that during all the events described

above I was "fooling around" sexually with other boys. ALL of them, to my

knowledge, were (are) straight. Keith may be straight too, for all I know,

BUT I WAS IN LOVE WITH HIM and that made all the difference in the world.

>

>Now, this wasn't something I thought through -- or even thought about --

that much. I thought about Keith all the time, of course, and the reason his

coming on to me blew my mind was THAT WAS EXACTLY MY FANTASY OF WHAT I

WANTED. But when it came right down to it, that was NOT what I really

wanted. What I really wanted was something else, something deeper, something

even more scary and beautiful than sex.

>

>I wanted to be in love with him. And, in a way, I still am.

>

>Beautiful Thing does a damn good job of dealing with this adolescent

confusion. It is clear that Jamie and Ste have strong feelings for one

another. Yeah, they do "fool around" but the beauty of it is, there's much

more to it than that.

>

>I feel one of the most powerful scenes in the film is where Jamie confronts

Ste for avoiding him -- that night out by the lake at the dance. It is in

this scene that they really come out to themselves and one another. Ste:

"And are you? Gay, I mean." Jamie: "I'm awfully happy -- happy when I'm with

you." -- wow.

>

>So, yes, as someone said, coming out takes a lot of courage. It's all the

more confusing for us because there are so few images around us of what it

means to be gay in a positive and healthy way. This is why movies like

Beautiful Thing are so important.

>

>Before my lover David died (back in February, for those of you new to the

list) we belonged to a gay couples group. It was a group of seven couples

that got together once every few weeks to learn about gay relationships from

one another. This group has been meeting for over four years and was very

valuable to all of us. We learned a lot we didn't know about being gay,

being in love and being in relationship. Most of all we learned how

desperately we need "normalization" -- by which I mean to see ourselves and

one another as simply "normal" guys in normal relationships. Different, yes,

but "normal" in the sense that our relationships have all the ups and downs

that straight relationships have, plus the added burden of being same-sex in

a culture which has not (yet?) created social roles, rituals, and laws that

enable us to feel included.

>

>Well, I've gone on quite long enough.

>

>I just want to say that I'm very happy to hear us talk about our lives and

not just the movie. The movie is GREAT, but our lives are where it's

happening. You know what I mean??

>

>Mike

>

>

**************************************************************

>From: Jay

>Subject: Its Getting Better

>

>Hi fellow BTers

>

>I just got done updating my website, and there are now *12* hi-res jpeg

>pics from my trip to Thamesmead, the Gloucester, and "the Anchor" last

>March, available for your browsing pleasure...

>

>I've had a lot of fun putting this together, starting with the visit, of

>course... still a lot of work to be done on the site, but it's getting better!

>

>(ps - if you've browsed to there before, remember to "reload" each page

>after you get to it, or you won't see the changes! Alternately, clear your

>disk cache before you start...)

>

>

**************************************************************

>From: jens

>Subject: Introduction to myself

>Date: 06 May 1997 17:24:09 +0000

>

>Hi to All,

>

> a> From: a9402833@unet.univie.ac.at (Manuel Wasinger)

>You're from Vienna? :)

>

> a> When I returned home I sat down and wrote a little poem (for the

> a> first time in my life; for those of you speaking German: you can

> a> read it at the end of the mail). I know that it is not that good,

> a> but hey, it was my first and it only took me a few minutes

> a> (intuition?).

>

> a> _____________________________________________________

> a> Beautiful Thing.

> a> Alles scheint so schwierig.

> a> Im Film war es noch leicht;

>Actually, dear Manuel, films are made for dreaming. Now you should try to

live your own dream...

>

>Beautiful Thing is a kind of film which _can_ make people dream, and many

tend to forget everything they've learnt when watching it right after its

end. You shouldn't do so... don't forget, although it's "only" a film, there

are people out there to do the same things as Jamie and Ste. They can do it

- and you can do so, too!

>

>Take courage, and live your own life. I know that you'll think: it's easy

to say "come out!", but it's not easy when living in conditions like I do.

But don't you also think, that your living conditions are very good compared

to those of gays or lesbians living in countries like Singapore, China or

Israel? There's a jewish gay and lesbian organization in Israel called the

Organization for protection of human rights... it's much harder for them,

but they still fight against intolerance.

>

>There are groups for young lesbians and gays in Linz and Vienna, and

perhaps much more. You should give it a try! :)

>

>Junge

>

> a> Alles scheint so schwierig.

> a> Fnr mich klingt es zwar leicht und echt,

> a> doch was bin ich denn schon?

> a> Wer bin ich denn?

> a> Bin ich denn wer, so wie ich bin?

>Bist Du denn ein Niemand, nur weil Du Dich nur in Jungen verliebst? Hast Du

denn kein sonstiges Leben? Bist Du nicht ein Mensch, wie jeder andere auch?

Du verliebst Dich genau so, wie alle anderen... Deine Liebe unterscheidet

sich von der der Heteros nur durch ein einziges Chromosom. Wäre da kein

Ypsilon mit drin, waere es doch dasselbe, oder?

>

>Amicalement,

> Jens

>

**************************************************************

>Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:36:12 -0700

>From: Manuel

>Subject: Danke! (Thank You!)

>reply-to: "Beautiful Thing Email List" <beautiful-thing@zzapps.demon.co.uk>

>

>I want to say a BIG thank you to all who replied to my "Introduction"

>either personally or via the MailingList

>(especially to Taiyed and Jan).

>

>According to your responses I seemed to be the first who touched this

>sensitive topic in such a detailed way.

>I realized that many of you out there are struggling with similar

>problems. And I am sure that the "discussion" of them does not only help

>me myself ( because it is my own personal story ) but does help a lot of

>us.

>So I hope that it will go on; not only with my story but with yours,

>too.

>

>Maybe you think that such topics do not belong to a movie mailing list.

>But I suggest to expound "BT-MOVIE-mailing-list" to a real

>"BT-mailing-list". Let us interpret Beautiful Thing not only as a movie

>but as the "beautiful thing" of being gay, falling in love, experiencing

>yourself... etc.

>I think this is what BT (the movie) tried to tell us.

>

>Thanx again for all your responses; some personal mails I have already

>answered in detail. I intended to answer the rest of you via the mailing

>list.

>I cannot do it today 'cause I will leave Vienna in a few minutes and

>will not be returning until Monday.

>But as the subject of my first mail already said it only was an

>"Introduction"; and introduction means that there will come more...

>

>So I leave you until next week (looking forward to more mails of you),

>

>Manuel.

>

>

**************************************************************

>From: Robert

>Subject: My turn

>Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 21:36:39 WETDST

>

>Dear all,

>

>I thought I would tell a bit of my story and how beautiful thing

>affected me. It is rather complicated and I wouldn't say it was

>easy writing it as my emotions are rather confused about all the

> events. As well as coming to terms with my sexuality I have

>come to terms with a mental breakdown (schizo effective

>disorder or whatever I was labelled as).

>

>When I was 18 (I'm 27 now) I had just finished my A levels in

>Essex England and was waiting to go University (Leeds) in

>October 1988. I was always a very introverted underconfident

>person the type that got bullied . I felt very different from

>everybody- maybe a bit paranoid, very isolated and of course

>extremely lonely. I thought I was happy (in a delusinal way )

>but things started to go wrong. I felt depressed and started to

> find reasons for this. I was always very unhappy (not now

>though) in finding men more attractive than women. I always

>found it necessary to pretend to find women attractive and to

> act just as homophobic as people around, although I was

>repeatly beat up in the school toilets for being 'gay' (age 11-

>14) , although of course I never had admitted it.

>

>I found myself a summer job (july 1988) and I remember coming

>home early on the first day because I felt so down, in tears in

> fact. I went home and told my Mum that I was gay. She said

>that ' I think it is just a phase you are going through'. I said to

>her that I'm going to be proud to be gay and not care what

>people think. At that particular moment I felt an enormous

>elation, tremendous happiness, I felt extroverted - I didn't

>know that I was experiencing a mental breakdown. Although

>it was the beginning of 'madness' , the elation was real

>happiness- what I said to people made sense- I felt love towards

>people and not the usual blunt emotions I had. The following

>day I felt a deep depression, painful depression- all the

>happiness was robbed from me- my mind was broken. It is hard

>to describe mental illness - so I won't describe it here. Sexuality

> didn't mean anything anymore - I was far too 'gone' really. I was

>on antidepressants - although they never helped at all. I wasn't

>well enough to go to Leeds although I decided to go. Needless

>to say I didn't last very long- I left after the first term.

>

>I managed to get myself a job in Essex in early 1989 in a factory.

>I was still very confused and unhappy- maybe rather bitter-

>although I didn't transfer my bitterness to other people. I was ;

>according to the women who worked there, 'Very polite, nice

>young boy' . I decided to come out again- thinking that the more

> I tell people - the more happier I would become. I told two people

> (blokes) and they basically said to me that I was very brave-

>although they slagged me off heavily behind my back. Some

>women said to me 'I don't believe the others that you are gay- you

> are too nice' etc. Although the atmosphere wasn't nasty as such

>- it was very two-faced. The most nasiest comments came from a

>person , who I found out later to be bisexual . That was a rather

>strange situation , I was so in love (and confused) that I didn't

>care how much he slagged me off- that is another story however.

>

>I decided soon after that life was far too horrible to be gay (it is of

>course not!- but at the time..). I tried out girlfriends- the relationships

>were very false of course. I wasn't really ready for relationships

>anyway because of my mood swings and depression- and they

>always ended very quickly.

>

>Back in my closet I went to Loughborough University in 1991- being

> well enough. Leeds University didn't want me back again. I

>completely inorged my sexuality- although I always defended

>homosexuality when the subject came up. All my friends were

>straight and I did pretend to be straight.

>

>In 1993 I went to Germany for my 'year in industry' . I tried for the last

>time to change my sexuality (heavens know why!). I found myself a

>girlfriend in Nuerenberg. This was a bit of a turning point - I hated

>myself for lying to other people -and indeed to myself! In my final

>year 1995 at university I came out (for the third time) to my best friend.

>I found it so difficult- I was shaking and I never knew how to say.

>I tried to say it in a rather 'casual way' to soften the blow. He

>understood- and wasn't nasty about it at all. I suddenly felt very angry

>that I had wasted my whole life running away from the truth. Admitting

> you are gay should be as trivial as admitting that you are left handed-

>why is it still so hard to say?

>

>I started to tell other close friends and I felt great about it. By 1995 I

>had got better (mental health wise). I knew no gay people - I met a few

> in the last month of my university life. The first gay couple I met went

> along to the graduate ball - hand in hand in front of everybody. I found

>this so inspiring- nobody seem to notice them- which was great- that

>means it was normal.

>

>Now I'm doing my PHD in France. I feel so much happier about myself-

>although I haven't found a boyfriend yet. I don't ram my sexuality down

>peoples throats- I'm just honest about it. When the situation arises I just

> tell the truth.

>

>The last two examples

>

>'Hey Rob- what sort of women are you into?'

>'Oh - men'

>

>'What do you think of that new Italian girl that has just started work?'

>'Oh- nice personality'

>'Don't you think she is drop-dead horny?'

>'No not really.'

>'What?? Youre not gay are you?'

>'Yes'

>

>

>Whether I had been mentally ill or not I just feel so angry thay society

> pushes people into a corner - something that is as trivial as left

>handedness. You may not understand why I'm so bluntly honest- I just

>want that 'ideal' where one can be honest and not be manipulated by

>society. I find it easier to admit being gay rather than having being

>mentally ill- and I just love my new freedom- something that I never

>had. I can say what I want to say and it is great. I regret not coming

>out sooner at university- it seems that I wasted my time there.

>

>It is a shame that some people still feel the need to hide, or to pretend

>not to be gay by being homophobic. I've been through all those

>experiences. My ideal world would be to know 'who is' and 'who isn't'

>and for gay bars, clubs not needing to exist -(the concept being as

>rediculous as a left-handed bar) . You may not agree with me- it is

>only my opinion.

>

>Beautiful thing.

>

>This is a wonderful film. I saw it here in France 5 times in 1996. I felt

>such hope after seeing this film- especially the last scene. This scene

>where one can openly express their feelings for one another and not

>caring what other people think. It was the first gay film I saw- so

>positive- I was in tears.

>

>I have met some many great friends who have helped me through the

>years. I have reduced my medication a lot and I feel almost human.

>Here at work the people who know don't tell anybody else. They just

>let me tell people for myself. For my birthday here the people

>'in the know' bought me some 'obviously' gay presents , where as the

>people who didn't bought me a book 'How to chat up women'.

>The people not in the know soon said 'This isn't the right book for

> you is it?'- they are going to find a gay one for me.

>

>Life is great now. I'm not bothered about finding anybody at the moment-

> I'm just enjoying my mental freedom and hopefully will start to lead a

>normal life.

>

>Hope that wasn't too long

>

>Love Rob

>

 

**************************************************************

>From: "David"

>Subject: Re: My turn

>Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:58:37 +1000

>

>Rob

>

>I've just finished reading "my turn" and I want to give you a big *H U G* .

>

>Thanks for sharing your life with me today. I hope your life doesn't become too

>"Normal" *wink*.

>

>love always

>

>DAVID

>

>----------

>From: Robert

>Subject: My turn

>Date: Thursday, 08 May, 1997 07:36

>

>[snip, snip]

>

>Life is great now. I'm not bothered about finding anybody at the moment-

> I'm just enjoying my mental freedom and hopefully will start to lead a

>normal life.

>

>Hope that wasn't too long

>

>Love Rob

>

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

>David

>

**************************************************************

>Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:20:14 -0400

>From: MAX

>Subject: Re: Subscription

>

>ceursit wrote:

>>

>> Hi all

>> My friend really love to subscribe to the list. Unfortunately, I forgot

>> how to do it. HELP!! anyone?

>> Thanks

>> Neil

>

>Hi Neil,

>

>Just go to the following URL (within the BT website) and send the

>appropriate e-mail:

>

>

**************************************************************

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