Not real name of my interlocutor is John. He is the citizen of the United States of America, born in California.
Last year John was teaching in one of high schools of Ukraine.
Andriy Maymulakhin: For the beginning, please mention the places on the planet where you have been? Are there homosexuals everywhere?
John: I have had the opportunity to travel to many countries over the past several years. I have visited Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Greece, Luxembourg, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Belgium, Thailand, Mexico, Australlia, and many islands in the Carribean. In America I have visited 43 of the 50 states and yes there are gay people everywhere even in Alaska. I think I have been in gay establishements in nearly all of these places except for a few remote areas like Idaho.
I have been to Budapest, Moscow, and Bucharest. There are gays everywhere. The differences are in culture but they all have something in common: they love men.
Andriy: Where is Ukraine on the scale in comparison with other countries as far as gay activity and gay places?
John: Well Ukraine, unfortunately doesn't rank. Okay maybe on the same rank with Idaho. What I have found is that when gay people accept the silence imposed upon them by society, they "sink" into the subculture and usually feel they are part of the sewer rather than on the surface with the rest of society. The imposition of silence destroys the self respect of gay people. How many young gay people in the rural areas have felt they were the only person with a same sex sexual orientation in the whole planet? How many were forced to marry and act like straights without fulfilling there self respect?
When gay people stop accepting silence about gay issues then people will have to notice them. Maybe people won't like seeing gay people, but they may start realizing they are the same in every other respect. So Ukraine is not really on the scale, but there are other places in similar fashion. I would say Romania is worse. It is illegal to publicly announce you are gay in Romania. It can get you five years in jail along with a good beating by the arresting police. At least on paper gay people enjoy the right to be free from police harrassment, but because of the silence imposed on gays here I have heard that the police take advantage of this and can exort money from gay people trying to meet others in public areas.
Andriy: Why there are so many "fags" in America? It is often heard that it is because your culture is depraved.
John: There aren't more gays in America than anywhere else. Yes you will have areas where there are concentrations of gay people such as San Francisco, West Hollywood, New York City, Chicago, Atlanta, and Fort Lauderdale, but the overall population is about the same as anywhere else. The difference is in whether there is a free political society or not. Gays may still face discrimination in many areas of the United States but we have the right to say we are gay without fear of repriasal from the government. This freedom of speech has influenced Hollywood and we now have become a popular subject in news, sitcoms, television dramas, and Hollywood movies. Philladelphia the movie staring Tom Hanks won many academy awards, and Tom Hanks won best actor for his portrayal of a gay aids victim. How can anyone see that movie and not feel that gay people deserve more?
So it is not a matter of a depraved culture, hell you would have to apply that to most of Western Europe as well. These cultures are advanced and maybe the religious views are not the same as Ukraine and Russia, but you see even here there is a wide acceptance of differing views on religion. America has no single religion. In fact the gay church is rather popular. Where you have such a closed society, that is one religious vies, one political view, one concept of life, and where the authorities decide what is right for everyone you get a culture that encourages robots rather than self realization. This is what you have had in the past. It is time for gay people to do what we did three decades ago. STOP ACCEPTING SOCIETY'S REQUIREMENTS AND DEVELOP OUR OWN.
Andriy: Tell in brief about how did gay movement develop in USA and how strong is it now? Is the voice of gay people in your society heard?
John: The gay movement began slow. We accepted police harrassment and took it for awhile. Then in the late 1960's with the 'free love' hippy generation as an encouragement we became for vocal. I have to give a lot of credit to the drag queens. They just wouldn't shut up and that encouraged the rest of us. In New York City one June night the police decided to harrass a gay bar and they raided it. The drag queens were so outraged that they went into the street and began a riot. This was an important event in the gay movement in America. It gave courage to all gays. We celebrate this with gay parades in many large cities in America in June. I have been to the San Francisco parade several times and it is an inspiration to see some 500,000 people watching a major parade down the mains street of San Francisco.
Anyway after the Cristopher Street Riots, gay newspapers became more popular and some went national. Radio stations began having gay people on the talk shows. It became a subject of curiosity and interest. Hollywood, which already had many closeted gay movie stars, then began slowly portraying gays in the movies. We did not get very far politically, however on the national level. Gays began to concentrate in areas and to flex their political muscle. Soon the politicians began seeking gay support. Clinton paid 'lip service' to gays before he was elected. The present mayor of San Francisco was in a gay bar dancing while I was visiting there two years ago. He was really trying to get the gay vote.
Things are politically great in all places, Idaho probably won't have a gay congressman for decades, and nationally we have not gotten as far as we need. The courts however may break the ground for us. The courts took the front row in the black's fight for human dignity and rights in the 1950's and we hope to get that kind of support in the near future from the Federal Courts. There are at least two important gay rights cases to be decided by the Supreme Court soon. If we win those I believe the national political situation will change drastically in favor of gay acceptance.
Andriy: Did you participate in gay movement? How?
John: Yes, I actually did participate and continue to do so in a more limited way. I used to be one of those closet homosexuals, but when I finally accepted my gayness when I was 24, I used my contacts in state government to lobby for gay rights. I remember talking to one gay politician in Oklahoma, which I knew had secretly gone to bed with a friend of mine. I did not tell him I knew about his gay excursion but thought he would be sympathetic to our cause. Instead he advised that we "not make waves" just be quiet and all will be okay, he suggested. Silence was imposed upon him and he wanted to impose it upon us. But I continued to lobby for rights. That politician later went on to become the governor of Oklahoma. I just wonder if he believes it was worth it to be silent in order to be governor. I wonder, now that he is old if he has regrets to not being himself?
My most recent activity was lobbying Senator Boxer and Vice President Gore to change the immigration and visa laws in regards to gay people. Since gay people cannot marry it is not possible to bring a lover back to the United States as a straight person could in bringing back a spouse from another country. I called Senator Boxers office frequently last year trying to get some action.? The United States is not a gay utopia. We have problems and discrimination, but we are far ahead of other countries in some areas of the country.
Andriy: What is the image of "gay" in the head of "average" American and what is American gay in reality?
John: I don't know if there is an image. Hollywood first started creating an image for us, but then many gays began demonstrating at the studios and Hollywood began listening to what we wanted. We did not want a type or an image because there are as many kinds of gay people as straight people. There are funny, mean, serious, bad, good, rich, poor, and intelligent gay people. Since there is no average gay person there are no real average Americans. You have to look at groups or even regions to answer this question. If you look at the right-wing religious fanatics you hear from them that we are child molesters who are out to destroy the fabric of America. BULLSHIT! Most of these fanatics have their own moral dilemas and need someone else to point a finger at while they hide from their own problems.
Now my brother is from the midwest and a conservative Republican, but he views gay people as being like his brother. Since he likes and respects me I think he has a view of other gay people as just normal human beings. As gay people discuss their gayness with family and friends, it soon will be that everyone will have some kind of a personal knowledge of the life of a gay person.
Andriy: What is the difference of "average" American gay and "average" Ukrainian gays?
John: Again I don't think I can give you an average gay person in America. In Ukraine, it is a little easier to come up with an average because in my experience there are only a couple of groups that are identifiable as gay. There is still a huge population of the silent ones that are hidden and therefore I haven't had an opportunity to assess. The two groups I have seen here are those who are outwardly gay and those who are sexually gay but think of themselves as straight.
You have some of these latter ones in America too, but I think it less culturally imposed now and more a family or religiou imposed thinking. Here it is interesting that the background of wanting to be straight seems to not be imposed by religion but rather by the old communist society.
Andriy: When you came to Ukraine and didn't find the usual gay scene - how did you create a communication with gay people? Were you unsuccessful?
John: Well I had searched the internet before leaving America and found a couple of gay contacts. I was lucky enough to find a great friend in Dniperpetrovsk who helped me a lot in adjusting to Ukraine. But in my region it was a slow beginning. I made contact with your paper to find if there were any openly gay people here. I then began meeting the openly gay society by word of mouth. Unfortunately within that group are those who prey upon other gays. I mean they use other gays by stealing from them, and I believe they think that because of fear of exposure to the police they will not report the criminal activity. I soon wanted to get away from this group of people and met a few who were not the regular "park people".
It is unfortunate that many of the gays that are openly gay will prey on others fears of exposure. I think it simply goes to this internal feeling that they believe gay is bad, so what ever they do to other gay people it is just part of their being bad and the others deserve any harm because they are bad anyway.
Andriy: Nevertheless, here in foreign culture, without language knowledge, you have found boy-friend. Did luck smile upon you or did you make it smile?
John: Well I was very lucky, I guess. I found a great guy some distance away that had a good chance of working out but the distance was too great. Then I had a second chance to meet a local guy who is top quality. He has such pure motives and good intentions. No he is not a saint but he has a good heart. He speaks English "some" and so we have communicated well enough. Sometimes misunderstandings can be a problem, but we make it through any tough times.
Yes there are cultural differences but we can both learn from each other. No one culture is totally superior of others. We both can get the good from our cultures. One thing I can contribute to him, however is a feeling that his gayness is to be respected not abhored. And, by the way we are not boy friends now we are committed lovers.
What will the future bring for us? I don't know, but we must work something out to stay together for the long term.
Andriy: What would you like to advice Ukrainian gays and lesbians to do to make their lives more happier?
John: I have already referenced this: Don't accept society's imposed silence on gay people. The more gay people become visible the more happy they will be. If there is early persecution it is still more bearable than the silence. I don't think it is necessary for everyone to go into the street and yell 'I am a faggot' but I am suggesting that if a friend or family asks about your gayness you don't hide it by denying being gay. I am suggesting that when you are around a bunch of straight guys who are talking about women that you don't put on an act and make them think you are interested in women sexually. I am suggesting when your straight friends tell disgusting gay jokes that you don't laugh in order to hide your gayness. I suggest you act naturally and be yourself whether at home with your gay friends or somewhere else with your straight friends.
Andriy: Are Ukrainian men handsome?
John: YES! I am amazed at how many good looking men are here. And my lover is one of the most gorgeous.
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