Posted 8-29-01
It seems to me that the angels sinned when they could see God. They were judged and sentenced to prison. Evidently, Satan appealed the sentence, saying something like, "How can a good God sentence his creatures to prison? Man may have been created to prove a point to Satan. If man, who was smaller, less powerful, and could not see God could still obey him, God would be just in putting Satan and the fallen angels in prison.
God decided what man's test would be. He was to walk by faith and obey God even though he could not see him.
> > during the millenial reign, man gets to worship God by sight
At first, but maybe not later on. King David will be a prince under Christ, the King of kings. Jer. 30:9 says, " they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them." David will be on Earth, Christ in New Jerusalem. Rev. 21:23 tells us about the heavenly city. The "Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it." Rev. 22:3 says of the heavenly city, "the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it." Agape
> > "According to this article, even the Tribulation seems off in the distant future sometime. Olson says, 'we do not know when it will occur or how long it will last.' I get the feeling that he has no idea that it is near. Not believing in a Pre-Trib Rapture, and not thinking that the Tribulation is near, could lead to one's being caught unaware. People need to study their Bibles for themselves. Agape "
I just wanted to make a couple of observations about this paragraph.
First, saying that we do not know when the Tribulation will occur is not, as you imply, the same thing as not believing in a future time of Tribulation, nor does it logically follow that I am not prepared for such a time, whenever it might occur (and I believe that it could be soon...or it could be far in future). It merely states a simply fact: we do not know the time. Reading your premillennial dispensationalist prejudices into my plain statement of fact is pure bias and poor scholarship.
Secondly, this bias is evidenced by your remark "I get the feeling...", as though your feelings or my feelings have anything to do with the matter. Also, writing that my article gives you the impression "the Tribulation seems off in the distant future" is special pleading--if it seems that way to you, it's only because you wish it to be so--not because it actually is so. Why not stick to the facts?
As a former believer of the pretribulation Rapture and the dispensational system, I am well-aware of the biases towards Catholic eschatology. Of course, this bias must also extend towards not only towards Catholic, but also the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental churches, and most Protestant denominations since they also reject dispensationalism and the idea of two returns of Christ, two future judgments, and an earthly, Jewish millennium. I encourage you to more accurately describe the teachings of the Catholic Church since misleading folks is not a matter to be taken lightly. Peace of Christ, Carl Olson
Oh, I'm probably much worse than you think. My "premillennial dispensationalist prejudices" are very strong. I have no way to find what appeared in my Pro and Cons earlier, but from what you said here, my beliefs are very different than yours. I am not only a Dispensationalist, I believe in TWO Raptures before the return of Christ to Earth (1st trump--Pre-Trib, I Thess. 4:13-18; and "last trump"--Pre-Wrath, I Cor. 15:51,52), FOUR future judgments, and an earthly millennium with Christ as king and the world ruled from Jerusalem. I even believe that king David will rule as a prince under Christ the King of kings.
I believe that there are three 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews, and the Age of the Church. After these 6000 years, I believe there will be a 1000-year Day of the Lord, a great Sabbath.
Upon this general framework, I believe these 7 Dispensations are hung. There are 2 exceptions. The 40 years Adam spent in Eden being tried in innocence were BEFORE the 7000-year time during which man is being tested being mortal and knowing both good and evil. The 70th week of Daniel is the "ENDS of the world (ages)," (I Cor. 10:11). That time is inserted between the 6th and 7th millenniums. Eph. 1:10 mentions another Dispensation: "That in the DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS (pleroma, completion) OF TIMES (years, Rev. 12:6,14) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him."
(1) Innocence - 40 yrs
(2) Conscience - 1616 yrs
(3) Human Government - 427 yrs
(4) Promise - 430 yrs
(5) Law - 1559 yrs
(6) Grace - 1977 yrs
(7) Kingdom - 1000 yrs
The judgments are to determine (1) who goes (wise Philadelphian virgins, Mt. 25, Rev. 3:7-13) and who stays (foolish Laodicean virgins, Rev. 3:14-22) in the Pre-Trib Rapture, (2) the Judgment Seat of Christ, (3) the Judgment of the Nations and (4) the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium.
(1) James 5:9: "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the JUDGE standeth before the door" (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8).
(2) II Cor. 5:10: "For we must all appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
(3) Mt. 25:31,32: "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."
(4) Rev. 20:11,12: "I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Seventh millennium with Christ as King, David under him, world ruled from Jerusalem:
Heb 4:9: "There remaineth therefore a rest (SABBATISMOS) to the people of God."
Rev. 20:6: "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a THOUSAND YEARS."
Amos 9:11: "In that day will I RAISE UP THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old."
Jer. 30:3,9: "I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to RETURN TO THE LAND that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it....they shall serve the LORD their God, and DAVID THEIR KING, WHOM I WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEM."
Zech. 14:16: "it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of ALL THE NATIONS which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Isa. 9:6,7: "unto us a child is born (inheriting his humanity from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. OF THE INCREASE OF HIS GOVERNMENT AND PEACE THERE SHALL BE NO END, UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID, AND UPON HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even FOR EVER. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
> Tribulation...I believe that it could be soon...or it could be far in future
I don't see how it could be far in the future. I take it that you have been following the daily news out of Israel. What do you think will happen if the wall breaks? Do you think the Pope will be the peacemaker?
I also think we are saved by faith in Christ, as per Rom. 10:9,10. It says, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
> > I encourage you to more accurately describe the teachings of the Catholic Church
So that I can do so, I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to present the teachings of the Catholic Church on these things and the scriptures that back them up. You are much better qualified to do that than I am. Agape
During my submarine duty I spent hundreds of hours listening to them on sonar. They are the noisiest creatures in the ocean, and it's impossible to doubt that they have a very sophisticated language. Agape
I wish I had thought to whistle to those friendly porpoises the day the captain took us out. That was a day I'll never forget. Agape
The dispensation of the church age (grace) ends with the one rapture/ressurection of all Christians. The only bearing good works have, as far as I can tell, are the different rewards (crowns) we get and the amount of joy they ultimately bring.The body of Christ can not be seperated which is what a two rapture theory does. It is illogical for me to believe that the bride of Christ made clean by His own shed blood (1PET 1:18&19), can be halved.
> > I have a qualm with your position of two raptures for Christians.
Concerning the 1st Rapture, Rev. 3:10 in the new HRV (Hebraic-Roots Version, by James Trimm) says, "Because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep you from the temptation that will come on all the inhabited earth, to prove all the inhabitants of the earth." The KJV says, "I also will keep thee from (tereo ek, to keep out, not aireo, to take out) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Both the living and dead escape before the Tribulation. I Thess. 4:16,17 (KJV) says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."
As you also believe, this group of Christians is to be raptured before the Tribulation begins. They are the saints singing a new song before the throne of God in Heaven. Rev. 5:8,9 (HRV) says, "the twenty-four elders fell down before the lamb, each one of them having a harp and a bowl of gold filled with ointments that are the prayers of the holy [ones], Who were singing a new song and saying, You are worthy to take the book and to loosen its seals because you were slain and you have bought us with your blood for Eloah (God) from all the tribes and nations and peoples." This group out of every nation is before the throne in Heaven. They have been made kings and priests. Nothing is said about them having had to wash their robes in the blood of Christ. Yet, they are before the throne in Heaven before the 1st seal is broken on the 7-sealed Title Deed to the Earth. Christ begins to break the seals in the next chapter, Rev. 6. Therefore, these holy ones were caught up in Rev. 4:1, at the same time that John, the other 11 apostles and the 12 patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel were caught up to sit as elders on their thrones in 4:4. All the elders are Israelites. Those from every nation are also there.
In Rev. 6, Christ breaks 6 seals, taking us right up to the end of this age and the beginning of the Day of God's Wrath at 6 PM. This is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. The greater Son of David will purge his kingdom as Solomon, son of David, did. Rev. 6:16,17 (HRV) says, "Saying to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of the lamb, Because the GREAT DAY OF WRATH HAS COME and who is able to stand."
In Rev. 8, the 7th seal is broken releasing the 7 trumpet judgments, but in the gap between 6 PM and the following noon, when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth (Zeph. 2:4,5), we find Revelation 7. Clad in white robes and standing before the throne in Heaven are the 144,000 Israelites (who sing "as it were a new song" like the 1st group) and "a great multitude whose number no one was able [to count], FROM EVERY NATION AND TRIBE AND PEOPLES AND TONGUES" (Rev. 7:9; HRV). We are told that "They are those who came from great affliction and HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES AND WHITENED THEM IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB" (Rev. 7:14; HRV).
You tell me. How did this great multitude of Tribulation saints get there?
The 144,000 are added to the Bride group, for "they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God" (Rev. 14:5; KJV). Rev. 14:3 says that they "WERE REDEEMED (agorazo, purchased) FROM THE EARTH." If they are purchased from the Earth, so are the rest of the great multitude purchased from the Earth. The purchased possession is taken home to Heaven.
The difference between the 2 groups: one didn't have to wash their robes. The other one did. One group was caught up at the first "trump of God," before the Tribulation (I Thess. 4:16,17). The other is caught up at the "last trump" of God (I Cor. 15:51,52), on the Day of God's Wrath.
Nu. 10:1-4 (KJV) says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, and for the JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS (PLURAL). And when they shall blow with them (both, 2nd Rapture, both groups are called, from Heaven and Earth), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet (1st Rapture), then the princes (elders), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."
The 2nd group is the one we read of in Dan. 12:1,2 (KJV). It says, "at that time (time of the end when the False Prophet shall come to his end, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (day of Jacob's trouble): and at that time thy people shall be delivered (malat, TO ESCAPE, LEAP OUT), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Both the living and dead escape on the same day that the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth after the 7th seal is broken, just as both living and dead escape before the first seal is broken.
Mark 13:27 (HRV) says, "Then (on the Day of God's Wrath) he will send his angels and GATHER HIS CHOSEN from the four winds, from the furthest of the EARTH (2nd Rapture) and up to the furthest of HEAVEN" (those caught up in the 1st Rapture). We are all to be called to the general assembly in Heaven. Heb. 12:23 (HRV) says, "you have drawn near to the mountain of Tziyon and to the city of the living Eloiah, to the Yerushalayim that is IN HEAVEN and to the innumerable multitudes of angels, And to the assembly of the firstborn who are written in heaven, and to Eloah, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just who are perfected."
> > once you've been saved, God never leaves you nor forsakes you (HEB 13:5).
That's true. Every believer will make it to Heaven too. Some just are harder to convince that they should wash their robes in the blood of Christ, i.e., confess their sins committed since they accepted Christ so God can cleanse them of ALL unrighteousness (I John 1:9). The ones that do it in time are caught up in the 1st Rapture. The rest are caught up in the 2nd Rapture.
Remember that Jesus told Peter that if he didn't wash Peter's feet, he had no part with him. John 13:10 (KJV) says, "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all" (meaning Judas Iscariot). To let Jesus wash our feet is the same as washing our robes in the blood of Christ. All sins should be brought under the blood of Christ. When we accept Christ, the "old sins" (II Peter 1:9) are wiped off the books. It says, "he that lacketh these things is blind (like Laodiceans, Rev. 3:17), and CANNOT SEE AFAR OFF (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (KJV). In Rev. 3:16 (HRV), Jesus says to the Laodiceans, "you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot. I will vomit you from my mouth." They were in Christ, so they are believers. Since all believers will make it to Heaven, even if what they have built on Christ the foundation is wood, hay and stubble, and they are vomited out of the Body of Christ at the 1st Rapture, when will they be caught up?
> > Good works didn't get us into heaven, and I believe it is not a streatch to assume that our good works now won't get us into heaven.
That's true. If we do good works, we will receive rewards. If we do not, we will not receive those rewards. However, we have to do something to be saved in the first place. We have to obey what the Scripture tells us to do. Rom. 10:9,10 (KJV) says, "IF THOU SHALT CONFESS (homologeo, acknowledge) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and SHALT BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession (homologeo, acknowledgement) is made unto salvation." We don't have to do much, but we have to do something, then the Lord does the rest. If we confess him, HE DOES THE WORK.
I John 1:9 says we must do something similar. It says, "IF WE CONFESS (homologeo, acknowledge) our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." If we confess our sins, HE DOES THE WORK.
In Mt. 11:30, he said, "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Confessing is easy, a small thing. We just need to realize that we should do it and get it over with. We don't want to have to learn that lesson during the Tribulation. I Cor. 11:31 says, "if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."
> > who would be left to repopulate the earth during the millenium?
There will be so few men left that a child could write the number. Isa. 10:19 (KJV) says, "And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them." All Israel will be saved in a day, the Day of God's Wrath (Isa. 66:8). Israelites will be resurrected. They are promised the Earth. Daniel will stand in his own lot in Israel at the end of the 1335 days. The "sheep" (but not "goats," Mt. 25:32f) will also live on into the Millennium.
> > why isn't the church mentioned in Revelations after the fourth chapter.
I think it is because the church is the ekklesia, called out ones. They get called out in the Rapture. After that, the remnants are called saints, not ekklesia.
> > It makes more sense that tribulation saints are ressurected at the same time as old testament saints since the tribulation period, also known as the "70th week of Daniel" or" the time of Jacob's trouble" reverts back to that dispensation.
And when do you think the Tribulation saints will be resurrected?
> > You can't have two dispensations running at the same time. The dispensation of the church age (grace) ends with the one rapture/ressurection of all Christians.
I believe that the "ends (plural) of the world (aionos, ages) (I Cor. 10:11) will all 3 run at the same time, the end of the Age of the Gentiles, the end of the Age of the Jews, and the end of the Age of the Church.
> > The body of Christ can not be seperated which is what a two rapture theory does.
It is separated now. The head is in Heaven, and the living Body is on Earth. The dead in Christ are in Heaven, the living in Christ are on Earth. This Body can be likened to a child being born into a new world. First, the Head, then the torso, then the legs and feet. One foot can be born a bit before the other foot. The Tribulation is not long.
> > It is illogical for me to believe that the bride of Christ made clean by His own shed blood (1PET 1:18&19), can be halved.
I think the Bride of Christ are the five wise virgins, not the foolish ones. You do realize that some believers are carnal. We have to take the Lord's word for it. He told a parable of the ten virgins to teach us. The foolish virgins were left behind to get more oil of the Holy Spirit. Afterward, they said, "Lord, Lord, open to us," but the door was closed. I Cor. 12:13 says, "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." They were believers. They just lacked an extra supply of oil for their lamps to keep them from sputtering and threatening to go out. They put off buying extra oil until the last minute and missed the first open door. He comes quickly. When the Rapture is "at hand" (Rev. 22:10), "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Rev. 22:11). One can wait too long. We have been warned. Agape
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