Mike: So Carl, you're an atheist, right?
Carl: Aren't we all?
Mike: Huh? No. At least, I'm not. I believe in God.
Carl: But do you believe in Shiva or Buddha? No. You're an atheist with respect to them.
Mike: Well, I guess you could put it that way...
Carl: So you're an atheist.
Mike: Funny, I always thought of myself as a theist. I thought an atheist was somebody who believes that NO god exists... And a theist is somebody who believes in at least one god.
Carl: No no. An atheist is anybody who believes that at least one god does NOT exist.
Mike: Really? Wow, then that means that almost everybody is an atheist...
Carl: Neat, huh?
Mike: Kinda puts atheists in the vast majority...
Carl: That's the idea...
Mike: So I guess the only person who is not an atheist is a pantheist--somebody who believes that everything is god. Anybody who falls short of pantheism is doubting the god of pantheism.
Carl: Yup.
Mike: Even someone who believed that everything is god except one thing would be an atheist.
Carl: Uh huh.
Mike: So if I believe that I'm god, you're god, all God's children are gods, and everybody and everything is god--EXCEPT Tinky Winky from the Teletubbies...?
Carl: You're an atheist.
Mike: Hum. Well I'm not buying it.
Carl: Okay. Then I shall call you illogical and irrational. So there.
Mike: Oh yeah? And why's that?
Carl: Because your religion is absurd.
Mike: How is it absurd?
Carl: Oh come on. Eternal punishment for finite sins?
Mike: Why not? Every action we ever take in our lives has eternal consequences. Even in the physical sense.
Carl: Physical sense? What are you talking about?
Mike: Well, if I move my hand it causes molecules of air to move. Those molecules hit more molecules and so on. It's a chain of events with no end to it. You know--chaos theory, the butterfly effect... If I pick up a rock and throw it, that rock is now affected for eternity. If nothing moves it, it will be in that place until long after the heat death of the universe because I threw it and it landed there. If something comes along and moves it, the only reason it will be in contact with the particular object (or the part of that object) that moves it is because I caused it to be resting there in the first place. Everything that ever happens to the rock will be affected by the precise location that resulted from my throwing it.
Carl: This is ridiculous! I'm talking about eternal damnation, and you're talking about throwing rocks!
Mike: I'm just saying that everything we do has consequences that affect things for eternity. Why should our moral choices be any different?
Carl: But it's an INFINITE consequence for a FINITE action!
Mike: So that's out of proportion? Is that it? Well then, what should be the correct proportion of the punishment to the crime? How about a guy who makes a split-second decision to pull the trigger on a gun and kills his wife? Should he be given life imprisonment for such an infinitesimal crime? It only took him a fraction of a second to commit, and yet the punishment will last the rest of his life. He will never be a free man again. Seems kind of out of proportion, doesn't it?
Carl: Well, I dunno... At least he's not going to be in prison for eternity...
Mike: But he's never ever going be a free man again either.
Carl: Yes, but I mean--eternity? You'd think that after a few hundreds or thousands of years God would decide they'd had enough.
Mike: And then what would he do?
Carl: Well, maybe give them another chance.
Mike: So that they could love God merely out of fear of more punishment?
Carl: Or at least he could put them out of their misery. Annihilate them. I mean, don't you think that would be the merciful thing to do?
Mike: The merciful thing? But these are people who have rejected God's offer of mercy. They chose to turn their backs on God, so why shouldn't he turn his back on them?
Carl: A loving God simply would not condemn people to hell. God's love is incompatible with hell.
Mike: Are you saying that if I love my children I will not want anyone who harms them terribly to be punished? I would think it would be just the opposite. My love for my children would make me want to punish anyone who would dare to hurt them.
Carl: Yes, but hell...? ...I... I just don't like it.
Mike: You may not like it, but I thought you were going to prove that it's illogical.
Carl: Okay... Well, moving on to human sacrifice.
Mike: Human sacrifice?
Carl: Human sacrifice! The whole idea of God requiring his son to die as a sacrifice.
Mike: What about it?
Carl: Well, I mean--human sacrifice! It's barbaric!
Mike: What about people who die in wars? Aren't they sacrificing themselves to save others? What about policemen who give their lives trying to apprehend murderers? What about a firemen who dies saving the life of a child in a burning house? Aren't these people sacrificing themselves?
Carl: Well, sure. So what?
Mike: Well, are they barbaric to do so? Are you saying all those examples of self-sacrifice are worthless and stupid?
Carl: Of course not. But--
Mike: So why would Jesus be "barbaric" to give himself to save us?
Carl: Well, okay, the fact that he gave himself is not barbaric--but the fact that God required it is barbaric.
Mike: God requires punishment for sins. Are you saying that all the rapes and murders and torturing and child molesting throughout history should require no punishment??
Carl: Well, no...
Mike: Well, that's what Jesus' sacrifice was all about. He was taking the punishment for all the world's sins.
Carl: Yes, but...
Mike: But what?
Carl: Well... But, um... Ahem. Billlions and billlions--
Mike: Carl!
Carl: What?
Mike: Stop it.
Carl: Stop what?
Mike: You're going into one of your spiels aren't you? About how the universe is so vast and...
Carl: But it is!
Mike: Yes, but... Oh all right. Go ahead... Do your spiel...
Carl: Thank you. Do you realize how big the universe is? There are billlions and billlions of stars in our galaxy alone. And billlions and billlions of galaxies. Our earth is just a small planet orbiting an insignificant sun at the edge of an obscure galaxy among billlions of other galaxies. It's ridiculous to think that we're the center of creation. Why would God ever care about us? The universe is so huge, and we're so small. The universe is just humungous. It's colossal. That's how big it is. It's astronomically huge and vast and... And we're so small. We're just tiny little ants, just little bitty eensy weensy creeping ants. The univese--huge. Us--small. Tiny winy little bitty eensy weensy...
Mike: Okay! We get the picture.
Carl: Well it's just so huge.
Mike: Okay, but so what?
Carl: So what! What do you mean so what? Billlions and billlions...
Mike: So what? Do you think size determines importance?
Carl: Well...
Mike: Is a six-foot-tall man more important than a man who's five-foot-six?
Carl: Of course not.
Mike: Oh. Well would a fifty-foot-tall man be more important than a six-foot-tall man?
Carl: No, no.
Mike: Is a mountain more important than a man?
Carl: No, but--
Mike: I don't see how size determines importance.
Carl: Well logically it doesn't. But there's just this feeling of awe and insignificance and...
Mike: I agree. But it's just a feeling.
Carl: Well, yes... It's just a feeling... But, I mean, billlions and billlions--
Mike: Carl!
Carl: What?
Mike: Put a lid on the "billions and billions" stuff, would ya?
Carl: Well, all right... Oh, by the way, have you read my book Contact?
[He holds up his book.]
Mike: No. I saw the movie...
[Carl holds the book up in front of his face to hide his mouth.]
Carl: [in a low voice, behind the book] Billlions and billlions...
Mike: Carl!
Carl: What!
Mike: Cut it out.
Carl: Oh all right.
Mike: Now you say Christianity is absurd. I say atheism is absurd.
Carl: Absurd? Preposterous!
Mike: Yeah, that too. First of all, where did the universe come from?
Carl: The Big Bang, of course.
Mike: Yes, but where did the matter in the Big Bang come from in the first place?
Carl: Well, if we suppose that there are an infinite number of universes spontaneously springing into being...
Mike: Yeah, I heard you say that one time on TV. It was on The Dennis Prager Show. You know--Dennis Prager, the talk radio host who had a syndicated TV show for a while there...
Carl: Yes, I remember.
Mike: You said that same thing about maybe universes are spontaneously springing into being all the time...
Carl: Yes, I remember I said something like that.
Mike: Is there any evidence for this supposition? One hint of a shred of evidence?
Carl: No.
Mike: Then why did you say it?
Carl: Well, I had to say something.
Mike: But why did you say that maybe universes are springing into being all the time, instead of just supposing that our own universe did so?
Carl: Well, if I paint a picture of all these many universes springing into being with wild abandon, it just makes it easier to swallow the notion that maybe our one universe sprang into being out of nothing.
Mike: So it was just pure sophistry.
Carl: That's right. Pretty sneaky, huh?
Mike: On that same show Dennis asked you why we should accept the idea of evolution, and you said basically that since humans can breed many kinds of animals and plants, then we shouldn't find it hard to imagine that Nature, which reaches into the heart of every creature, could change things so much more than we puny humans can change them through breeding.
Carl: Yes, I said something like that.
Mike: You didn't mention that that argument was taken directly from Darwin's Origin of Species.
Carl: No. Why should I?
Mike: Well, of course a lot of what Darwin wrote was very speculative. One would think that by now, 140 years later or so, you'd have something a little more concrete to offer as your chief argument for evolution. After all, the statement is basically saying nothing. Nature "reaches into the heart of every living thing"? What's that supposed to mean? Nature has a hand and reaches in and adjusts the organs and the DNA to fashion something new using her great wisdom? Why talk about Nature as if she's a person with hands who can "reach" into things? That's not science; that's poetry or something. How does Nature reach into these creatures? Does she have to cut them open first? And does she have assistants? It's hard to believe Nature would have time to go out and gather all these creatures she has to operate on, and prep them and administer the anesthetic and all the other tasks all by herself. And would nature really be able to know everything about every kind of creature? You'd think she would specialize in, say mollusks or something, and have a whole staff of other specialists to help her...
Carl: You're making fun of me.
Mike: Think so?
Carl: Well, it sounded good...
Mike: Okay, so the idea that the universe created itself is absurd. There is no evidence for any means by which the universe could have created itself, or for the idea of a cyclical universe. Now secondly: the origin of life. Do scientists have anything but the most vague, nebulous guesses about how life could have begun?
Carl: No. They can only talk about vague, imaginery concepts. No specifics. Except that they have been able to synthesize a few proteins.
Mike: But do they have any evidence that their method of synthesizing these simple proteins bears any relation to anything that was going on in the early stages of the earth?
Carl: No.
Mike: And yet they assume that life arose spontaneously.
Carl: Yes...
Mike: Absurd. Now how about meaning? Does atheism allow for any meaning in life? Morality? Meaning in suffering?
Carl: Well sure atheism allows for meaning. We make up our own meaning.
Mike: Oh. So the KKK makes up their own meaning, and you make up yours. Nobody can tell anyone else that they're wrong.
Carl: No, I can tell them they're wrong.
Mike: But it doesn't mean anything to say they're wrong, because meaning is just whatever we make up. How about suffering? You say God would not allow suffering. Actually Christianity finds meaning in suffering. But what does atheism offer as an answer to suffering? Nothing. Only absurdity. Only that that's how life is, and there is no meaning to it.
Carl: No! There's meaning to it! It's all part of the struggle for survival.
Mike: Why is that meaningful?
Carl: Because survival is what we all strive for. Everything you do is part of your urge for survival.
Mike: Oh? I don't find survival to be a particularly compelling ultimate value. If survival was all I was really after, why would I get on a plane and risk being killed in a crash just for the mere fun of going somewhere to vacation or visiting someone? That doesn't help my chances of survival. If survival was my main goal, I'd cower in my house whenever I didn't have to go out, so that I didn't expose myself to any risks in the wide world.
Carl: Well, you just gotta see the hidden survival value in your actions. It's sort of like Freudianism...
Mike: It's absurd. The only meaning you can offer in life is survival? Forget about love and truth and beauty. Those are only masks for our selfish desire for survival. Meaningless. Absurd.
Carl: Now wait a minute. In my book Contact... Or at least in the movie... For some reason I can't remember much about the book right now, but I can remember the movie...
Mike: Me too. That's all right. Go ahead.
Carl: In the movie I showed that just as religious believers can find meaning in religion, so atheists can find meaning in the material universe. Well, that is, if we ever discover extraterrestrials and travel to Vega...
Mike: And how would that give us meaning?
Carl: Why, we'd have a vision of the beauty of the universe, like Jodie Foster did, and then we'd meet an alien shaped like our father.
Mike: And the meaning comes from...?
Carl: Well, then we'd realize that we were "not alone" and that we were "part of something greater."
Mike: "Not alone" meaning that extraterrestrials exist. And "part of something greater" meaning that we're part of the universe?
Carl: Yes.
Mike: So how would these realizations give us more meaning in our lives than we would have without them? Just knowing that instead of being one of 5 or 6 billion other humans (oh the lonliness!), there are other creatures out there, and just knowing that we're part of the universe, which we knew already. How would those things give us the ultimate meaning to life?
Carl: Well... I dunno. But it makes a good movie.
Mike: So bottom line, atheism means that the universe just is, and there's no meaning, and we can't imagine how it got here or how life began, or why there is any meaning to anything. No meaning, no explanations, absurdity.
Carl: If you want to put it that way.
Mike: Okay. Well, nice seeing you, Carl.
Carl: You too.