From ???@??? Sun Mar 07 07:01:29 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: Andre 
Cameron Brickey wrote:

> Tell me about this, Andre.  It seems so unfortunate.

I was by far the youngest in the lodge, believing that freemasons had
access to some private knowledge, to assist one in the search for the
meaning of life.  The men that I came into contact with, were part of a
boys club.

> I agree.  Like many groups, Masonry is affected by members that do not
> have a clear concept, or regard for its goals.  Perhaps crippled is
> too strong a word here.

Is it not so that certain degrees are limited to Christians? The higher
degrees?

Do you not think the the words "tracing board" do not quite describe the
a tiled floor?
Perhaps something has changed?

Regards
andre

From ???@??? Sun Mar 07 07:13:51 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: alberto vallini 

Hallo,

well i read the following sentence:

QUOTE
>Is it not so that certain degrees are limited to Christians? The higher
>degrees?
UNQUOTE

if i am not mistaken (after all english is not my native tongue) it wonders
whether some degrees are limited to Christians. I cannot spot whether it means
that only Christians can acces higher degrees or if it means that only
non-Christians could access higher degrees, but it is not important,
because in
both cases the whole issue would be completely false. I dunno who attempted to
persuade You about this story but, really, it is completely untrue. I never
heard about it (of course in italian Free-Masonry, but i am confident also in
any other official masonry) I have never been questioned about my beliefs in
any occasion and not at all when upgrading degrees, no one ever asked to me
whether I am a christian or not in Masonry...
Uh, the point is: how's possible that such disinformation keeps going on: I
mean that i cannot spot WHO could be interested in keeping it going.

PS please note that i am NOT at all referring to the brother (or non-brother)
who sent this post!!! but to the people that spread such information so
that it
fatally reaches some people.

best regards and have a nice day,


From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 03:42:11 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: Cameron Brickey 

> I was by far the youngest in the lodge, believing that freemasons had
> access to some private knowledge, to assist one in the search for the
> meaning of life.  The men that I came into contact with, were part
of a
> boys club.

Ah, such is sometimes the case in many groups.

> Is it not so that certain degrees are limited to Christians? The
higher
> degrees?

No Andre, I have never encountered that practice in any of my
associations with Free-Masonry.

> Do you not think the the words "tracing board" do not quite describe
the
> a tiled floor?
> Perhaps something has changed?

Andre, in that I understand you to be a Freemason and one in search of
Light, you must understand this.  If you are seeking something in
Masonry beyond the material then you must stop thinking of it in terms
of material objects.  The tracing board is an object as well as a
concept in Masonry.  Nothing has changed.

Fraternally Yours,

From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 03:42:15 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: William Ward 

Andre wrote:

> Is it not so that certain degrees are limited to Christians? The higher
> degrees?

As I understand it, the Knight Templar degree in the Commandery of the
(American?) York Rite is a Christian degree in the sense that one is
"required" to defend Christianity against evil.  I'll know more in a couple
of weeks when I attend the York Rite reunion.

I'm more concerned with their definitions of "Christianity" and "evil."

I've also never heard of religious prerequisites for any degree within the
Blue Lodge or the Scottish Rite other than one cannot be an athiest.

Bill

From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 04:28:07 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Visiting Scotland

From: "Doug McLean" 

Hi Gordon

There is a possibility I may be in Scotland during May 2000, what is the
occasion?

Regards
Doug McLean
Grand Steward United Grand Chapter of Victoria (Aust)
Past Grand Junior Deacon United Grand Lodge of Victoria (Aust)

From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 18:25:16 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: Andre 
In South Africa the 4 grand lodges, English, Scottish, Irish and South
African (Netherlandic) recognise each other and their respective
European Grand Lodges. They do not recognize any other, not in the
States or Continent? Not going further than the 3 rd degree, I would not
know, but a freemason informed me that the higher degrees were
accessible only by Christians. The Jewish brethren were excluded.

I am of the opinion that Masonry predates Christianity and therefore, if
my info is correct, rituals were modified to accommodate Christians.

Regards
andre

From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 18:25:20 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] In response ...

From: "Jason (Private)" 
Hi André (and other Brethren)

Firstly, it is comforting knowing that there is yet another
Brother closer to home (physically) and to you, Brother
André, I bid a special 'dagsê' (the one Afrikaans word I
remember from school) and invite you to join the South
African Freemasons mailing list by visiting
http://samasons.listbot.com.

Then, with regards to your question of whether Jewish
Brethren can join higher degrees, here's your answer:
ABSOLUTELY. I was born into the Ancient Faith and am happy
to say that just last month I was advanced into the first
degree of the Royal Arch (South African Chapter) and am now
a Mark Master Mason.

It is true, from what other Brethren have told me and from
my own research, that once you reach the 18th degree, there
is a split between Christian workings and non-Christian
ones. Should you join an English 18th Lodge, there are
parts of the ritual which relate to J.C. and it would
obviously limit the working to those of the Christian
faith. This is quite a contentious issue, as Blue/Craft
Lodge teaches the acceptance of all religions and here, as
the candidate is ascending and supposedly 'learning more'
he is informed that it's not so 'singular' as it once
seemed. It is surely a pity. To cut a long story short (a
bit late, I know) Jews CAN ascend right up to the 33rd
degree (and beyond for those that have done a little
digging).

I have been reading a book called G_D - THE ULTIMATE
PARADOX by David Ash. It is certainly a book I'd recommend
to any Mason - or, rather, any Mason that chooses to
investigate, delve, think and question. I undoubtedly fall
into that category. It puts forward a great many profound
issues and unless your mind is open to questioning the
bedrock that the Judeo-Christian dogma is based on, don't
bother opening the cover. For me, it's been a revelation
and almost like a chisel splitting open a rough geode to
reveal something completely different on the inside. It
shouldn't (I believe) be regarded as the be all and end all
of the answers to the contradictions that the Bible
presents, but it certainly makes you think - and I like
that.

To give a brief (because I can't do the subject justice
without quoting excerpts from the Bible, as it does)
example of how we don't stop enough to think about what it
is that we base all our beliefs on:

In Genesis, when Man is created, G_d says 'Let us create
man in OUR image.' Surely this presents a problem! As a
Jew, I've been brought up to believe 'The L_rd is ONE'.
>From the original hebrew texts, this section (and others,
as the book continues to shatter tradition) refers to
'Elohim' - a plural. It also refers to the snake that
tempted Eve into getting Adam to eat the apple/fruit from
the Tree of Knowledge. When Eve hesitates, the snake says
(paraphrasing) 'The only reason G_d doesn't want you to eat
the fruit is because it will bring you knowledge.' David
Ash believes that for the snake to have said this, it
must've KNOWN what G_d was thinking and thereby have been a
G_d (or demi-G_d at least). He continues to put forward
that this was the first of many instances that G_d tried to
hinder Man in his advancement. In many cases, such as the
Tower of Babel, where Man had united and was living happily
and advancing in thought and deed, G_d put a stop to it
and, in this case, split the people over the globe and even
formed different languages to further divide them. David
thinks that G_d (or G_ds - plural) created Man in almost a
creator/slave relationship. He wanted completely
subservient beings that would never question his
actions/thoughts and, indeed, BAD side. Why do we continue
to see a Being that (as the quotes from the Bible support)
would so blatantly express cruelty and selfishness, as
being completely Good and entirely Faltless?

As I said - you need an open mind. Please read the book.

With fond fraternal regards,
Jason Elk
Lodge Mutual #53 G.L.S.A.
Chapter Mutual #1

From ???@??? Tue Mar 09 08:35:38 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: alberto vallini


Hallo dear Brother,

QUOTE
>In South Africa the 4 grand lodges, English, Scottish, Irish and South
>African (Netherlandic) recognise each other and their respective
>European Grand Lodges. They do not recognize any other, not in the
>States or Continent? Not going further than the 3 rd degree, I would not
>know, but a freemason informed me that the higher degrees were
>accessible only by Christians. The Jewish brethren were excluded.
UNQUOTE

I think that South Africa is a fairly special case under many a point of view,
so if You say that over there they exclude some groups from free Masonry, I
suppose it is true. The fact the they recognise with other Grand Lodges does
not mean that they share the same procedures: No one would dream of not
recognizing for instance the South African Government, but we cannot say that
in Italy we followed the same kind of social politics ther run over there.

If in South Africa they are excluding jewish, please note that it is
anti-masonic and moreover quite unacceptable under every point of view, not
just masonic (I am not jewish by the way). If you accept the joke, at first I
read your last sentence "the jewish brethern were executed" and it sounded
coehrent with the context you were depicting, so I realized i mis-read it only
on a second read.

Unfortunately does not exist a worldwide masonic authority or I would
immediatly suggest to gather information and if it results true I would
suggest
to undertake immediate measures against the Grand Lodge of South Africa for
non
masonic behaviours.

If it can be of any consolation, I can assure anyone that in Italy EVERYBODY
who is a mason can access any degree in any kind of masonic rite.

Hope this can clarify a bit,

my best regards and have a nice day,

From ???@??? Tue Mar 09 08:36:12 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: Cameron Brickey 

Perhaps, a little strongly worded, but I agree, Alberto.

From ???@??? Tue Mar 09 08:37:05 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Secrecy

From: Andre
Hi

I think that it is due to the Grand lodges in the UK that causes them to
hold this view. The English, Irish and Scottish Grand lodges have the
headquarters in the UK. Only the South African lodge is local?

Regards
andre

Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: In response ...

From: alberto vallini 
QUOTE
>In Genesis, when Man is created, G_d says 'Let us create
>man in OUR image.' Surely this presents a problem! As a
>Jew, I've been brought up to believe 'The L_rd is ONE'.
>>From the original hebrew texts, this section (and others,
>as the book continues to shatter tradition) refers to
>'Elohim' - a plural. It also refers to the snake that
>tempted Eve into getting Adam to eat the apple/fruit from
>the Tree of Knowledge. When Eve hesitates, the snake says
>(paraphrasing) 'The only reason G_d doesn't want you to eat
>the fruit is because it will bring you knowledge.' David
>Ash believes that for the snake to have said this, it
>must've KNOWN what G_d was thinking and thereby have been a
>G_d (or demi-G_d at least). He continues to put forward
>that this was the first of many instances that G_d tried to
>hinder Man in his advancement. In many cases, such as the
>Tower of Babel, where Man had united and was living happily
>and advancing in thought and deed, G_d put a stop to it
>and, in this case, split the people over the globe and even
>formed different languages to further divide them. David
>thinks that G_d (or G_ds - plural) created Man in almost a
>creator/slave relationship. He wanted completely
>subservient beings that would never question his
>actions/thoughts and, indeed, BAD side. Why do we continue
>to see a Being that (as the quotes from the Bible support)
>would so blatantly express cruelty and selfishness, as
>being completely Good and entirely Faltless?
UNQUOTE

The subject would be interesting, and actually what puzzled most of the
readers
an believers of the Bible has always been its cruel fashion:  any Prophet
always undertake a bewildering violent language, and most of the Bible seems
involving war and destruction.
If it can be of any help, it is possible to find more resources about it. I
could advice to provide Yourself with some book by Origene (I dunn if in
english his name is translated like that, but must be very very similar): i
dunno about his biography (i admit my ignorance here, despite any enciclopedia
would help) but I read some of his works: the insight you could get about many
passages of the bible are so enlightening and so CONVINCING that could clarify
something: You could find his text devoted to the Numbers bible book: it will
make a dumb book make sound sense!!!.
There is also a book by brother C.G.Jung whose title is "Reply to Job". It is
not an ultimate resource, but faces the issue you are raising: why God shows a
bad side in the bible?

As for my humble opinion: the bible is an exoteric book, and the right way to
read it is to cope with it and study it as a book that should be read as
something that does not belong to this world. A multidiscipline approach,
through kabbalah and Alchemy could turn out unpredictably powerful and help us
to understand better.
When i was a younger man, I never understood why some critics blamed, just for
instance, Hemingway for his style, and eventually i came to this
conclusion, if
it can be of any help: books must never be criticized, but LOVED. When you
don't find it intersting, the odds are the you did not understand it,
simply. I
mean that even bad books can be useful if You have enough love and interest to
to turn their useless load int useful gold: after all, also learning by
other's
people mistakes is an enrichment, and learning how to avoid the mistakes that
other writers did is better than taking the pen and criticize them. The bible
is a profoundly mysterious book: it is irritating when yoyu are in times of
peace, but when you are in times of troubles it's a real blast! You could feel
the desperation turning into confidence.

have a nice day and my best regards,

From ???@??? Thu Mar 11 08:40:06 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: In response ...

From: Andre 
Hi

I wonder how many have heard about Kabbalah?

It is essential to have the book "Veritas" by Henry Melville to grasp
the "language" of the Bible. It may be had from Kessinger Publishing Co
- download their catalogue - it is claimed to be the largest Masonic
Publisher. 

Much reading matter may be downloaded from the net - the Lost Keys of
Masonry by M P Hall is an example.

Regards
andre

From ???@??? Sat Mar 13 05:00:40 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Welcome to Free-Masonry@eGroups.com

From: "Alistair Rae" 

Bill, fraternal greetings

I have been a MM since Dec 95 and a RA Mason since Apr 96.  Thats
under United Grand Lodge of England and Supreme Grand Royal Arch
Chapter.

I'd suspect that your reference to the York Rite Council degree is a
reference to the HRA degree.

The word used in York Rite and in England is different, it was changed
here a number of years ago, however by implication the compound word
used in the US is the word you refer to, and has merely been
substituted here in the UK by something more acceptable to our
detractors.

Whether the compound word is the restored word or not depends on how
the ritual is viewed.  I am not a subscriber to the view that the
ritual is historically accurate so the concept of true and substitute
secrets are allegorical of something far deeper.

I'd like to ask how you view your masonry, I've seen from another
couple of posts that you consider the paths as a development process,
so how does the concept of a true and substitute secret strike you
from that perspective.

Sorry to leave things a bit open, but the subject could lead to a
diverse range of discussions along different approaches.

S&F

Alistair L Rae MM
Union of Malta Lodge No 407, UGLE
William Kingston Chapter RA No 407, SGRAC
QCCC

From ???@??? Sat Mar 13 15:54:17 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Welcome to Free-Masonry@eGroups.com

From: "patrick byrne"

alistair wrote

>I'd suspect that your reference to the York Rite Council degree is a
>reference to the HRA degree.

york rite - put overly simply - includes all of the "side" degrees from ugle
constitution in an ordered progression through mmm to hra and onwards and
upwards

>used in the US is the word you refer to, and has merely been
>substituted here in the UK by something more acceptable to our
>detractors.

in ugle the compound word was deleted and is no longer used

>Whether the compound word is the restored word or not depends on how
>the ritual is viewed.

the compound word had in any event been slightly altered over the years

>I am not a subscriber to the view that the
>ritual is historically accurate so the concept of true and substitute
>secrets are allegorical of something far deeper.

the ritual and the pass-words are allegorical - you cannot "lose" a set of
secrets when 2 people who know them remain alive

likewise you cannot go up a staircase to collect your wages if your reason
for being there is to build the staircase and the middle chamber

i could list other contradictions but i have hopefully made the point about
the allegory

regards
patrick

From ???@??? Sun Mar 14 05:37:34 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: In response ...

From: JC LANOT 

le 10/03/99 6:38 questor@stones.com Andre écrivait/wrote :

>Much reading matter may be downloaded from the net - the Lost Keys of
>Masonry by M P Hall is an example.
Dear Andre,

Could you give the URL from which this interesting 
reading matter can be downloaded from ?
Thanks

+++--------------------------------------------+++
      JC Lanot
      Loge n°66 Or.'. de Paris
      Les Philanthropes Réunis
      Grande Loge de France
	  

From ???@??? Sun Mar 14 05:37:46 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Welcome to Free-Masonry@eGroups.com

From: William Ward 

Bro. Rae, others,

I waited until I received the Chapter and Council degrees before
responding...which I did receive today.


Alistair Rae wrote:

> I'd suspect that your reference to the York Rite Council degree is a
> reference to the HRA degree.

I'm not sure what the HRA degree is.  Are you speaking of the Royal Arch?  I
made a mistake in my earlier post when I wrote "Council" rather than
"Chapter."  In the American York Rite the RA degree is the last of the
Chapter degrees.

> The word used in York Rite and in England is different, it was changed
> here a number of years ago, however by implication the compound word
> used in the US is the word you refer to, and has merely been
> substituted here in the UK by something more acceptable to our
> detractors.

Again, if you are speaking of the words used in the RA degree, I suspect I
would have to visit an English Lodge to delve into this further.  Also, are
you saying the substitution took place specifically to appease your
detractors?

> I'd like to ask how you view your masonry, I've seen from another
> couple of posts that you consider the paths as a development process,
> so how does the concept of a true and substitute secret strike you
> from that perspective.

I would certainly say it is a development process.  This has been a
recurring theme throughout all the degree work.  I have a theory as to why
we have a true and a substitute secret.  Actually it is more of a
hypothosis.  I haven't really researched this so I hesitate to give an
opinion...just yet.

Bill

From ???@??? Mon Mar 15 04:15:19 1999
Bro. Rae, others,

I waited until I received the Chapter and Council degrees before
responding...which I did receive today.


Alistair Rae wrote:

> I'd suspect that your reference to the York Rite Council degree is a
> reference to the HRA degree.

I'm not sure what the HRA degree is.  Are you speaking of the Royal
Arch?  I
made a mistake in my earlier post when I wrote "Council" rather than
"Chapter."  In the American York Rite the RA degree is the last of the
Chapter degrees.
----------------------
    Yes, I meant Holy Royal Arch, sorry for the ambiguity in my
posting :-/
----------------------

> The word used in York Rite and in England is different, it was
changed
> here a number of years ago, however by implication the compound word
> used in the US is the word you refer to, and has merely been
> substituted here in the UK by something more acceptable to our
> detractors.

Again, if you are speaking of the words used in the RA degree, I
suspect I
would have to visit an English Lodge to delve into this further.
--------------
     Again the words used in SGRAC England and the US are different, I
suspect that the word used in Scotland and Ireland are the same, or
similar to that used in the US.  The word used in SGRAC refers to a
specific supreme being, whereas the compound word used elsewhere is
more generic, allowing more interpretation by the member.  However the
word is still used in a 'compound' form so that it can be considered
allegorical of the SB of the member.  This is all a bit tricky to
follow but since I have obligated myself not to repeat the word
etc........  I'm sure you'll understand.
--------------
  Also, are
you saying the substitution took place specifically to appease your
detractors?
------------
     I don't know for sure, the change was made in the mid 70's I
think.  The compound word can easily be misinterpreted if it is viewed
from a purely Christian perspective.  Since Christianity is probably
one of the most intolerant religions the concept of other faiths
deities being acceptable is completely unthinkable :-)  From this it
is easy to see why FM got a bad press at the time, the media can have
total control of a large portion of the populace particularly when the
subject is faith and religion which so few people actually understand
beyond the propaganda they get from their particular religious
leaders.
-----------
I have a theory as to why
we have a true and a substitute secret.  Actually it is more of a
hypothosis.  I haven't really researched this so I hesitate to give an
opinion...just yet.
--------------

IMHO one of the beauties of Free-Masonry is that there is no dogma,
each member can analyse and interpret the ritual as he see's fit.  My
understanding of the concept of True and Substitute secrets could be
completely different to yours, but neither is more valid than the
other.

------

BTW I will be away for about 3 weeks so any further discussion will
be without my input for a while.  Whether that makes things worse or
better I'll leave to all of you ;-)


Alistair Rae

SD Union of Malta No 407, UGLE
Stwd William Kingston No 407, SGRAC
QCCC

From ???@??? Mon Mar 15 04:15:26 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: In response ...

From: andre 



JC LANOT wrote:

> Could you give the URL from which this interesting reading matter can be downloaded from ?


Hi

You may try:
http://homepage.usr.com/h/hendricks/55607.shtml
http://members.tripod.com/tito_9/anim.htm

It is the same source, but different pages.

When I save a file, the url changes to my HDD location. Is there a
setting to preserve the original URL?

Regards
andre

From ???@??? Wed Mar 17 22:17:16 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: In response ...

From: Cameron Brickey 

Andre,

Before I open it, perhaps you could explain what is in the attachment.
 Has anyone else opened Andre's attachment?  Seems odd to send one
considering . . .


Fraternally Yours,
Cameron Brickey
Lake Forest Lodge 1026
Grand Lodge of Illinois

From ???@??? Wed Mar 17 22:17:23 1999
Hi

It is a zip file with the P Hall text. I could not find the url so I
sent the file.

Regards
andre

From ???@??? Wed Mar 17 22:18:45 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: In response ...

From: Cameron Brickey

Thanks Andre.  I'll look at it as soon as I can get a chance.

From ???@??? Thu Apr 08 21:42:03 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Geopolitic Universal Free-Masonry

From: alberto vallini

Hallo dear Brothers/Sisters/Non-Masons/Subscribers :-)

i was thinking of a topic that maybe could be of some interest.
In the law doctrine here in Italy (but i think also in non-common-law
institutions the following distinction exists) we distinguis betwee the
Formal Constitution and the Material Constituition, being the former the
way the constitutional rules appear and the latter the way they are applied
in real life. Obviously, it appears unacceptable a distinction. If you
write down rules that are not enacted by actions, you are mining the same
bedrock of the social consent that a constitution should guarantee.

The same hppens in Free-Masonry: we speak of speculative Free-Masonry like
opposite to operative Free-Masonry, and the latter appears to many like a
deceitful, dangerous ground.
I would like to make a point to say it shouldn't be.

In the anglo saxon countries is developed a concept that in latin countries
still has not enough hold, and nonetheless it should: NATIONAL INTEREST.
What is national interest?
I propose the following description:
National Interest is made of all those commitments that any government
belonging to this country, independent of its ideology, is bound to pursue.

Of course, it is always possible to disguise partisan aims behind the
screen of National Interests, but in its genuine feature, National Interest
should be the... apolitical aspect of the politics!
If meant in this way, it should be the collection of all those commitments
the whole of the country (not just the majority, but even the minorities!)
share.
If so, how can we consider it "politics"?
In Lodge you cannot speak of politics and religion... I wonder: is National
Interest under THIS acception politics?

What is geopolitics? Geopolitics is the ground where Nationl Interests
intersecate and interact.
Gorbachev once said "Politics, when it is grand politics, is ALWAYS clean".
I would guess that politics, when it is grand politics, is GEOPOLITICS.
Under this acception the name is noble. It is like saying "intelligence":
if it would stick to its REAl meaning, wouldn't it be immensely evocative
and great?

In the 50's the Western world started losing Iran.
Mossadeq wanted to nationalize the oil companies and the reaction was that
the britis techs of the Anglo Iranian Oil Company went away knowing that it
would have kneeled to the ground Mossadeq because the iranian did not have
the know - how to make the oil industry work. The plan worked. What seems
weird is: if you are aware that you are necessary, why do you use an action
of force? If you are necessary you can do something best, as you are the
one really in charge.
The right reaction could have been: knowing Mossadeq couldn't really do
without the british, and nonetheless that his movement showed a healthy
root (the people felt it should start getting some control, and there is
nothing wrong in it itself), why not to attempt another strategy? IF they
would have helped out Iran to build a modern middle-class tissue, than this
social tissue would have been naturally inclined toward the western world,
also if it would have meant to share some power with the middle-class
(which is what happens in any modern country!).
Acting otherways let the country without a middle-class but still with the
purposes of power and revenge and it led to what? to a fundamentalist
revolution, and it couldn't be otherways: in fact what kind of revolution
can make a country where the middle class was not built but a
fundamentalist revolution for the utopic one class society?

Here comes the Free-Masonry: IF when Mossadeq in the 50's started
ventilating to nationalize, why not helping out creating the middle-class
tissue? Free-Masonry would have been the PERFECt tool fr it: enrolling
freemasons, start improving their knowledge and middle-class awareness
within the Lodges, instructing them to the free market principles as the
BESt way to get control, and providing thus the Iran with a middle-class
whose executives were grown within the Lodges: wouldn't this have prevented
the iran from undertaking a fundamentalist revolution 30 years later?
Under this point of view, this would have been a Geopolitic effort, capable
of matching all the necessities of all the groups in the best way, and
would have corresponded to the iranina people's National Interest better
than what they did in the 80s abandonig the old misery to get the new misery.
Would it have been an anti-masonic use of the UNIVERSAl Free-Masonry?

This is an example, and replies are welcome. Maybe it is wrong, but i do
hope that something interesting could be found in it, at least some clue
about the possibility and chance of making the Free-Masonry a force capable
to spread all the good forces that would be within it when employed correctly.
Obviously it is possible to disagree but maybe it could also be a starting
point for wider interactions, for renewed grandness, and for making the
world a safer world where nobody must have to be killed again for a couple
of dolars more or because reigning over the rubbish is better than not
reigning at all.
Best fraternal regards by this remote lighthouse of Free-Masonry in Wonderland.

PS sorry for mispellings and similars.
*****************************************************************************
«There is another sort of blow that comes from within- that you don't feel
until it's too late to do anything about it, until you realize with
finality that in some regard you will never be as good a man again»
(F.S.Fitzgerald)
Alberto Vallini

From ???@??? Fri Apr 09 02:34:21 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] $7.00 Investment Nets Thousands!
(***)
I was curious about the letter, so he told me 
how it works.  I 
thought
it was a long shot, so I decided against 
participating. before
my client left, I asked him to keep me updated as to 
his
results.  About two months later, he called to tell me that he 

had
received over $800,000.00 in cash!!
I didn't believe him so he 
asked me to try the plan and see for
myself.  I thought about it for a 
few days and decided that there
was not much to lose.  I followed the 
instructions exactly
and mailed out 200 letters.  Sure enough the money 
started coming 
in!!
It came slowly at first, but after three weeks, I was 
getting
more than I could open in a day. After about three months
the 
money stopped coming. I kept a precise record of my earnings 
and at
the 
end they totaled $868.439.00!
(*** etc etc etc... ***)

From ???@??? Fri Apr 09 02:50:19 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: NO COMMERCIAL ADS ON THE LIST

From: alberto vallini 

Hallo,

if there is something I hate is being nasty, but it is necessary to take care
of the interests of the subscribers to this list who, supposely, have
subscribed to receive messages about Free-Masonry and not junk emails.
Actually, you can discuss any topic, but NO advertisements.
There is only one rule in this list and is highlighted in the description
of it
at eGroups: no commercial ads to the list or ads that simply point to an URL
without further contents. In one word: no advertising.
I wonder how it got through as no adddresses appear as belonging to
subscribers
so I will forward the matter to the eGroups Staff.
As soon as I realize who is sending this I will remove his/her account and I
will forward his/her address to as many junk-emailers as possible.
I cannot see other possible reactions to an action that is made by concealing
Your identity.

From ???@??? Fri Apr 09 02:50:20 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: mett@(***)

From: alberto vallini 

The commercial ad was forwarded by:

mett@(***)

the attempt of hiding the identity was rather naive.
I remove this user from the list.
You can join back whenever you like, but if you post another commercial ad I
will be forced to ban your address.
This is the stuff I hate doing!!!!! 

From ???@??? Sat Apr 10 06:09:04 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] a big favor

From: "Kim" 

Hi everyone.  This is a really big favour that I am asking.  I have a
statistics assignment due next week and it involved me creating a survey and
then analyzing the data.  I am not using this information for any evil
purpose (like sending you junk) I dont need names etc...oh...and I will not
profit from this...except maybe an A in a class I fear the most.

Once again...this is greatly appreciated...thank you .

please go to:  http://duke.usask.ca/~anderson/survey/

thank you for your help.
Kim Stolte

From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 03:58:29 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: $7.00 Investment Nets Thousands!ro. Manny Blanco  

From: MasonTruth@aol.com

Dear Sir,
I feel that it is inapproprate to use this list as a means of 
advertisement... I am not interestedf and look forward to receiving 
information regarding Free-Masonry from around the world..


Sincerely
Brother Manny Blanco ( Junior Warden)
Moreno Valley Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley, Ca

From ???@??? Sat Apr 17 22:09:55 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Some Thoughts from Belgrade?????

From: alberto vallini 

Hallo,

I received by chance this email. It quotes some passages that seem
referring to
some discussion on the run at Free-Masonry@eGroups.com.
I am not currently aware of any discussion about this topic, so I would be
glad
if someone could tell me if you are sending posts about this topic (which is
perfectly OK) to the list, because I am not receiving them AT ALL.
This email was sent to Free-Masonry-owner@eGroups.com , so as I would be the so
called "moderator" (a word i hate, in fact the list is set under unmoderated
and unrestricted status), so I received it. I am suspecting that it is a
chance, and that there must be some debate over it at the other address (the
"correct" one : Free-Masonry@eGroups.com).
In this case I am not receiving Your posts, maybe because of some bug on
eGroups which I have been suspecting for a long time so far despite at eGroups
they fiercely deny it!
This would also imply that I did not receive any reply to a couple of my
previous posts to the list...which anyway I received (i mean I received my
posts... but it seems i am not receiving sdme others)...
 I am a bit puzzled as you could guess...
 so please, tell me whether at Free-MasonrY@eGroups.COM ther is some discussion
on this topic.
Please reply to vallini@dada.it
It is useless that i delve into the topic unless I don't know whether this
discussion is really at eGroups without me being aware of this! There would be
several interesting points, if we keep a Masonic attitude. But first I need to
know what's happening...
Thank You!!

QUOTING STARTS HERE
>
>Just thought I'd send on some slants on the war in Kosovo. Iam not
>saying I sympathise one way or the other but I think the other side 's
>views are worth consideration. Althrough wars the importance of
>propaganda is crucial for both sides.
>--- Sasa Damnjanovic enigma@tehnicom.net wrote:
>> Dear Brother,
>> 
>> thanks for your kind reply and sincere concerne. The
>> least of mine
>> intention was to hurt yours all feelings of any
>> Brother in your Grand
>> Lodge.
>> 
>> "The Grand Lodge of has always consistently refused
>> to express any
>> opinion on questions of foreign or domestic state
>> policy either at home
>> or abroad...", so, I didnt wrote this letter to you
>> as a Brother, I
>> writing to you like man to man. This is not a
>> question of policy, this is
>> a question about HUMANITY!
>> 
>> In this message I will not talk about what is truth
>> in Yugoslavia crisis,
>> who is wrong or who is right, "good or bad guy", but
>> I will put the light
>> on deeper, spiritual levels, which small number of
>> Yugoslav people is
>> aware of, and almost nobody outside Yugoslavia,
>> because almost nobody all
>> around planet knows history and mentality of
>> Yugoslav people.
>> 
>> Serbian nation have always in past 1000 years fight
>> for one s own
>> freedom and freedom of other nations (Serbs saved
>> Europe from
>> Muslim Turks invasion in 14th century in great
>> battle in Kosovo ­ this is
>> 
>> one of the reason that Kosovo is holy land for
>> Serbian nation, also
>> cultural heritage, with many monasteries and
>> churches from Middle Age).
>> In First World War Serbs have had main role in
>> liberation Europe from
>> Germans. In Second World War Serbs were also
>> victims: they made crucial
>> influence in prevent Hitler to conquer Russia….
>> there is lot of such
>> examples. It is victim-nation, like Jews. Serbs are
>> one of small number
>> of nations which never attacked others ­ always
>> defend itself  in all
>> wars. It was example for the other nations and the
>> rest of the world how
>> to fight, without fear of death, for the freedom,
>> and with this for the
>> Holy Kingdom. So, it is not coincidence what s
>> happened in last 10 years
>> in Yugoslavia (wars and sacrifices) to a small,
>> defiant and proud nation
>> with a big Heart (now only 10 million of citizens),
>> what battle is
>> happening over the back of chosen people….
>> 
>> First I want to make a general message to all of you
>> who want to
>> know facts about  past and present situation in
>> Kosovo and Yugoslavia.
>> For this practical reasons, I will write you as much
>> as possible FACTS,
>> everything important by my knowledge regarding this
>> very complex matter
>> and I will try to put the light on all details and
>> every side of
>> problems, for the goal of objectivity.
>> 
>> Yes, of course that there is lot of Albanian
>> refugees from Kosovo,
>> but not so many as your western media lies to you.
>> They broadcast
>> pictures of refuges with the snow and the Spring
>> green fields in the back
>> IN THE SAME TIME ­ they using old documentaries
>> without suspicion that
>> those who watch CNN will not see froud. What is at
>> first point most
>> important is that NATO, Americans and western
>> leaders don t worry, dont
>> care and DON T CONCERN AT ALL for their suffering ­
>> they just want to use
>> them and whole this situation for their selfish
>> purposes ­ installed
>> NATO troops in Kosovo, occupation of Yugoslavia,
>> last country in Europe
>> in opposition to them, and making here their
>> military bases for future
>> conquest to the east, at first point to the Russia.
>> After dissolution of
>> former Soviet Union and eastern block America and
>> NATO lost opponent in
>> balance of power and even birds on trees knows that
>> American
>> Administration wants to be World Policeman for all
>> regional crises, which
>> also they causes. In almost all regional wars after
>> Second World War NATO
>> puts their fingers.
>> 
>> What is happening here in last 10 years ­ disperse
>> of former Yugoslavia,
>> war in Croatia and Bosnia and now Kosovo - is just
>> preparation and test
>> for western totally and finally defeating and
>> enslaving Russia, after
>> this
>> maybe China or who knows "who is next?"  (question
>> that is often in
>> demonstrations worldwide against NATO these days)
>> This is New
>> World Order, dark Totalitarism for next century.
>> Russians knows this,
>> also China and India, last three powerfully
>> countries whose are not under
>> the politically and military influence of USA.
>> 
>> What is repeating here on Belgrade TV channels these
>> days, too
>> often that it is becoming a scream, but nobody in
>> the western world want
>> listen, is that THERE WAS NO ALBANIAN REFFUGES
>> BEFORE
>> 24. OF MARCH, WHEN BOMBING OF KOSOVO AND YUGOSLAVIA
>> STARTED. They are
>> escaping from NATO bombs. NATO strongly bombed all
>> cities in Kosovo, and
>> Kosovo has 90% of Albanians and just 10% of Serbs (I
>> will explain history
>> of this percents latter). Just last night, between
>> 6th and 7th of April,
>> the center of Pristina, main city of Kosovo, was
>> bombed ­ 10 people
>> killed, among them one Albanian family with 3 small
>> children. This is
>> just one example among dozens of similar deaths in
>> Kosovo last 2 weeks.
>> If NATO continue to bombing Kosovo they will push
>> THE REST OF ALBANIANS
>> to left Kosovo. This is A FACT, 70 foreign
>> journalist was to see this in
>> Pristina, but I doubt that CNN, SKY NEWS and BBC
>> will pass this to all of
>> you objectively. I just heard for one more TV fraud:
>> Albanians from
>> Macedonia (1,5 million Albanians lives there) ACTED
>> A ROLE OF 40.000
>> refuges from Kosovo in one camp in Macedonia for CNN
>> News. First several
>> days of aggression, from 24th to 27-28th of March
>> this media were truing
>> to be objective, because Clinton and his childish
>> administration thought
>> that Serbs will surrender after first bombs, but
>> when that saw that
>> Yugoslav Army is very strong in resistance, that
>> dozens of airplanes was
>> shoot down (they are also
>> hide this from western public opinion, like dozens
>> of American pilots and
>> 
>> specials died ­ their coffins are just transported
>> to Greece these
>> days), after this western leaders ordered to their
>> media that start with
>> most hysteric campaign against one nation in this
>> century. They just
>> want public support for continuing of bombing and
>> possible ground
>> invasion.
>> 
>> They know that 95% of Americans don t know history
>> (many of
>> them even dont know where is or WHAT IS Serbia or
>> Kosovo ­ some of them
>> thinks that it is dog food and just yesterday one
>> woman wrote me that
>> Serbs are attacking Kurds!!!(minority in Turkey) and
>> for that reason is
>> easy to form public opinion as they wish. But, many
>> of western people
>> forebode and suspect this fraud, they said: "Don t
>> lie us, like in
>> Vietnam!" (Anyway, did you know that Clinton refuse
>> to go fight in
>> Vietnam?). As we heard here ( but I also seen on
>> Internet), more that 50%
>> of Americans are against NATO aggression on
>> sovereign country, also 80%
>> of British etc. Or it was in the beginning of
>> aggression ­after hysteric
>> madia campaign we see that it is much worst for
>> Serbs.
>> 
>> Serbs are again put on "the pillar of shame",
>> proclaimed 
>=== message truncated ===
>
>_________________________________________________________

From ???@??? Sun Apr 18 04:22:39 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Some Thoughts from Belgrade?????

From: JC Lanot 
 As far as I am concerned I never read anything like this.
But I tend to think there are problems on the list as
 I received a message saying that many posts had bounced from my provider 
 and that if a probe to be sent was to bounce as well I would be removed from the list.
 
Some sort of technical problems I guess...

Jean Claude Lanot
 
From ???@??? Mon Apr 19 17:35:56 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] A Masonic solution to Belgrade? the D-factor

From: alberto vallini
{LONG EMAIL: users interested in the subject : MASONIC POLITICAL SOLUTION to
KOSOVO CRISIS can read, who is uninterested in the subject can skip for sure}

"Thou shall not stand idly by" (Old Testament)
"No man is an iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the
continent,
a part of the maine; if a clod bee washed away by the sea, Europe is the
lesse,
as well as if a promontoire were, as well as if a mannor of thy friends or of
thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in
Mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls
for
thee" (John Donne, and of course Ernest Hemingway)

Hallo dear Brothers/Sisters/subscribers,

The email quotation cited in the text below are an excerpt that was sent to me
by a subscriber to Our list. The original email that I am going to reply to
has
not been sent from Our subscriber, anyway, but by another person Who sent the
email to him. The address of the person that wrote originally the email
APPEARS
(seems) as being:

>--- Sasa Damnjanovic  wrote:

I'd like to take this chance for highlighting better the possible
employment of
Free-Masonry to the solution to a Geopolitic issue.
It is obvious that Masonry must not get involved with politics, so I think
that
any viewer interested in the subject can evaluate by himself/herself whether
the approach should be completely dismissed or if there are some valid
hints in
it.
I will reply to blocks of the original email, quoting it first and adding
below
any excerpt my thoughts and, say, "ideas".

>> Dear Brother,
>> thanks for your kind reply and sincere concerne. The

For two reasons we cannot but be concerned.

FIRST REASON: if the situation keeps escalating this way (factors of
escalation: involvements of neighboring countries like Albania+plans for
topping federal government in Montenegro by a serb coup+likelihood of a ground
intervention as times goes by+stubborn uncapability by serb officials, and its
population as well, of envisioning a non-conflictual environment.Under this
point of view the fact that after 10 years of continuous war with Croatia and
Bosnia the population is neither weary nor tired at all of its Leadership and
bombshells: on the contrary it encourages more and more violence, without the
slightest suspect that this situation should testify for something wrong with
the pursued politics+Russian threatens led by its communist sectors) we will
approach the employment of non-conventional weapons within the european
theatre
within August 12, 1999. Facing defeat or invasion the Serb government would
resort to the all-or-nothing politics and would dare go on with the ethnical
cleansings or straight to fight Nato troops by its obsolete but effective mass
destruction arsenal, which could ignite an immediate N-response by Nato.

This would lead to a major threat to the prosperity of the whole of Europe, to
a worldwide market collapse (whoever has equities should get ready for the
worst-case scenario), to a collapse of the U.S. market that would lose its
major economic partner (Europe), and would exclude Russia forever by any
chance
of getting into an affluent society within the next century.

SECOND REASON: any challenge cannot go unreplied by the human wit. Also
under a
masonic point of view not just the humanitarian involvements are at stake and
call for a Masonic standpoint, but any complex situation should allow for a
Masonic contribution too. It should not be dismissed the hypothesis that any
complex issue and topic could find in the Masonic mind set a friendly
environment for finding out a solution.
We are coping with some countries that find themselves out of History, and Our
effort should be either to take them forward into the modern history track or
to let them lingering out of the History with its medieval approach, feuds,
and
constant looting and rethorics (we are viewing a country fighting not for a
more affluent society, but for more "land", which is not an INDUSTRIAL
category
but a FEUDAL category, and even for religious considerations- a typically
FEUDAL topic). This latter hypothesis could be undertaken, and would involve
letting the Balkans fight each other as long as they like best (possible
"minor" fights between greece and Turkey could ensue, but here the problem
would not be to stop them but to cope with the muslim integralism that
would be
revitalized). This hypothesis has a cost "A"(like abstaining), introducing the
balkans and Russia within modern history has a cost "I" (like investments) and
a marginal advantage "W"(like wealth) (enlarging the world market which
implies
that the advantage W is an advantage shared by Russia and balkans as well:
there is no market if there are no persons with a secure income to spend), and
the chance of failing has a cost "D" (like destruction).
Nato intervention has a meaning only if the calculation is correct: W>(I+D) if
D> "The Grand Lodge of has always consistently refused
>> to express any
>> opinion on questions of foreign or domestic state
>> policy either at home
>> or abroad...", so, I didnt wrote this letter to you

And any Grand Lodge does it right.
The only possible "political" commitment for a Grand lodge should be to allow
for the widest coordination between all the lodges of the world.

>> I will put the light
>> on deeper, spiritual levels, which small number of
>> Yugoslav people is
>> aware of, and almost nobody outside Yugoslavia,
>> because almost nobody all
>> around planet knows history and mentality of
>> Yugoslav people.
>> Serbian nation have always in past 1000 years fight
>> for one s own
>> freedom and freedom of other nations (Serbs saved
>> Europe from
>> Muslim Turks invasion in 14th century in great
>> battle in Kosovo ­ this is

This happens because serbia is striving to find out the way to a modern
revolution, being unable to find out but proletarian revolutions.
The only successful revolutions in History have been the middle-class led
revolutions: the United Provinces revolution (Dutch), the English revolution,
The American revolution, and the French revolution: all revolutions where the
aim was not the "land" or the understending of the "true" spirit
(mentality) of
a Nation (a typical issue raised by the Nazis: the  "Volkgeist", namely "the
spirit of the People") which would have gone misunderstood.
On the opposite, any proletarian led revolution, such as Russian revolution,
German revolutions(nazism), muslim revolutions (Iran, even Algeria, Lybia),
Chinese revolution, led to nowhere: lands of espoliation and despair.
So the point is: it is perfectly said that a country must get through its
share
of unrest until it has not delivered its modernity, but no modernity and no
freedom for a people will be ever ensured as long as the mental ideas leading
their efforts are the feudal or proletarian ones. So the paradox seems being
that Serbs are fighting for the getting a prosperity similar to the western
world, which is exactly what the western world would like to see them getting,
and they are doing this with an anti-modern and anti-capitalist vessel (union
with Belarus -literally "far"fetched- but that highlights perfectly that we
are
still under a proletarian led revolution ideas).

>> one of the reason that Kosovo is holy land for
>> Serbian nation, also

Holyness, another idea before which any discussion is annhilated at its very
start. The Holy Land is a typical medieval idea as well, which does not mean
that cannot be cherished, but that it reveals once more that the ideas by
which
the modernity is approached are the ones bound to prevent from getting any
modernity at all.
What lacks in Serbia is a middle-class environment.
Creating it should be a Masonic commitment.
Any future Marshall plan for the endangered areas should take into
consideration ALSO making a good use of the capillar distribution of the
Universal Free-Masonry as a way for delivering its policy and resources.
The goal is to create a modern environment: the serb nation belongs to the
serb
and to no one else, in the same fashion the american nation belongs to the
americans and the Europe belongs to the europeans (nice word, isn't it? "the
europeans"...).
They should be helped to realize how to make their own country prosperous and
rich, and how to make it yield money by commerce, and not bombs by wars. For
realizing it it is quite necessary a constant increasing in the awareness of a
middle class of the benefits they would get by a different approach. It is
necessary that they understand the basic points: the target id to create the
wealth and DISTRIBUTE it with a general allocation: no citizen must be
excluded: any citizen must have his/her share of the wealth: in this way they
will start appreciating the benefits of a world where it is not the war of
Milosevic that rules but the moltiplicator factor of Keynes. It is crucial
that
the middle class is an original middle class, born on the spot. No such work
can be realized by an above all authority: it needs a capillar distribution
within the social tissue: it needs Masonry!

Contacts between the Grand Lodges of the whole of the world should be
undertaken immediately to help out making the plan operative, the sooner the
better.
Immediate, effective, real.
Immediate, prompt, effective.
Why couldn't Yuigoslavia start working not for the war but for its wealth?
Yugoslavia could start commercing with the whole of the world, with MUTUAL
benefits to every body, if only there were within its boundaries a
middle-class
with this awareness, with the sight of the possible gains, with the capability
of starting imposing it. This is the real revolution, the real thing, the real
deal, the real Worldwide New Deal!

In the next paragraphes I simply reply to some statements. It is just made to
make clear that some standpoints are vain, not just to make rebuttls: what is
at stake here is not what the following points would defend, what is at stake
here is the possibility of INCLUDING (and not EXCLUDING) Serbia within a
prosperous world of Commerce and Money and constructiveness!!!





>> cultural heritage, with many monasteries and
>> churches from Middle Age).
>> In First World War Serbs have had main role in
>> liberation Europe from
>> Germans. In Second World War Serbs were also
>> victims: they made crucial
>> influence in prevent Hitler to conquer Russia….

The reference point keeps being Russia.
Any revolution that has in mind Russia will lead to Russia.
As for Hitler he was defeated by Usa and Russia: any other contribution would
have never defeated his army.

>> there is lot of such
>> examples. It is victim-nation, like Jews. Serbs are

Uncomparable. I am not jewish but i must add: unacceptable.

>> First I want to make a general message to all of you
>> who want to
>> know facts about  past and present situation in
>> Kosovo and Yugoslavia.
>> For this practical reasons, I will write you as much
>> as possible FACTS,
>> everything important by my knowledge regarding this
>> very complex matter
>> and I will try to put the light on all details and
>> every side of
>> problems, for the goal of objectivity.
>> 
>> Yes, of course that there is lot of Albanian
>> refugees from Kosovo,
>> but not so many as your western media lies to you.

This is the current idea: Western news would be telling lies, spread by Nato,
in order to invade Yugoslavia. The missing point is: why should Nato be eager
to invade Yougoslavia if nothing happened? This question goes completely
unreplied, and so it remains: why Nato should spend million of dollars if
nothing happened, just for "conquering" a country when its partecipation to
the
western economy could be attained simply by letting it to partecipate to the
European Community in ten years if it were peaceful???
The fact is: the news cannot be false: any western world is based on a
polyarchic ground: we have majority and oppositions and they exchange power
often, we have minorities that have full access to media and strong access to
lobbying, so if there would have been something else to know, we would know
it.
Any broadcasting company does not fight for a political Leader, as in
belgrade,
but fights for money, so their only interest is to provide news about what is
going on, and if something different would be happening, they could SELL it as
well, and maybe EVEN better (think of Vietnam: the newspaper were not telling
lies than, why should they do that now for a so far minor topic if compared
with Vietnam?).
Lots of citizens from european countries are going to Albania to help out:
when
they come back they are quite free to tell everybody their versions: what they
saw, listened to, telling their stories: why those versions are always
matching
with the news witnessing horrors commited by Serb forces if the newspapers are
telling lies??
This is the serb-intelligence-led viewpoint: let's pretend that in the
PLURALISTIC western world they are telling lies and that in the AUTOCRATIC
serb
world we have a free press that is saying the truth. Quite obviously, this is
not aimed to the western world: they know it could never work: it is targeted
to the DOMESTIC public. 
There was also a claim that lots of fighters had been hit and prisoners
caught:
I wonder why, than, the serb tv did never show them. They hurried up to show
off the 3 soldiers caught and the F117 destroyed, but they never showed these
alleged other prisoners and airplanes. Who is naive here: the west who does
NOT
believe what it does NOT seen, or the serb who DO believe what they do NOT
see?
Who is drinking propaganda here: the West who does not believe simple
words, or
the serbs who soon believe any word?
A Yugoslavia with a preferred relationship with Russia is perfectly compatible
with the west: more, I would even suggest to let Russia doing the job of
taking
care of most of the necessities of Yugoslavia while shaping a COMMON new world
order.

>> They broadcast
>> pictures of refuges with the snow and the Spring
>> green fields in the back
>> IN THE SAME TIME ­ they using old documentaries
>> without suspicion that
>> those who watch CNN will not see froud. What is at
>> first point most
>> important is that NATO, Americans and western
>> leaders don t worry, dont
>> care and DON T CONCERN AT ALL for their suffering ­
>> they just want to use
>> them and whole this situation for their selfish
>> purposes ­ installed
>> NATO troops in Kosovo, occupation of Yugoslavia,
>> last country in Europe
>> in opposition to them, and making here their
>> military bases for future
>> conquest to the east, at first point to the Russia.

It's against the evidence of the History. Russia has STILL been "defeated".
The
plan is not to "invade" it (and for doing this we shouldn't use Yougoslavia as
a bridge: there are B52 and Ballistic missles: this is again the
"land"-obsessed mentality: nothing can be made if it does not involve the
ownership of a piece of "LAND"). The plan is to make Russia prosperous as soon
as possible and the sooner the better: invading it would not accomplish any
western goal and, moreover, would be impossible.

>> preparation and test
>> for western totally and finally defeating and
>> enslaving Russia, after
>> this
>> maybe China or who knows "who is next?"  (question

Once again: this is NOT the plan: After WW II what was put to work was not a
plan for aggression but the Marshall Plan for prosperity: the typical western
strategy to include countries is not to wage war unless it is not attacked.
The
strategy is to flood countries with money. The startegy is not to EXCLUDE
sections of the populations (which should be accomplished by fighting wars for
conquer its land and to exclude the original population from sharing power)
but
to INCLUDE them within the social contract for providing a STABLER basis and
increased wealth for everybody: major companies and citizens as well. 

This is the so called "democratic" solution to the conflict issue. Once again
the strategy of military aggression is the strategy of a feudal approach, not
of an industrial one. It is obvious that it cannot be understood by those who
never knew an industrial approach. they think it is led by feudal reasons, and
they are in good faith beliving this:

>> listen, is that THERE WAS NO ALBANIAN REFFUGES
>> BEFORE
>> 24. OF MARCH, WHEN BOMBING OF KOSOVO AND YUGOSLAVIA
>> STARTED. They are
>> escaping from NATO bombs. NATO strongly bombed all
>> cities in Kosovo, and

The strange fact is that when they arrive in Albania, they all report
otherwise: these report are taken by lots of western men and women, belonging
to any kind of tv channels and newspaper: pro governments, anti governments,
independent, dependent, political, apolitical and guess what... all those
reports match: they all wintness they are escaping serbs!

>> to be objective, because Clinton and his childish
>> administration thought
>> that Serbs will surrender after first bombs, but
>> when that saw that

This was the Albright idea, which does not imply that the exterminations of
albanians by Serbs must stop: if it did not stop at the first shot of gunfire,
it is the same: it will stop necessary with the last.

>> Yugoslav Army is very strong in resistance, that
>> dozens of airplanes was
>> shoot down (they are also
>> hide this from western public opinion, like dozens
>> of American pilots and
>> specials died ­ their coffins are just transported
>> to Greece these

Once again: impossible: their families would tell immediately to any local
newspaper if their relatives were missing without any report, and any local
newspaper (not to say major ones) would be eager to ride immediately the
new to
increase its sells.

>> They know that 95% of Americans don t know history
>> (many of
>> them even dont know where is or WHAT IS Serbia or
>> Kosovo ­ some of them

Well, that is not exactly the cradle of the Renaissance, say....

>> Vietnam!" (Anyway, did you know that Clinton refuse
>> to go fight in
>> Vietnam?). As we heard here ( but I also seen on

You would never believe it: our media told us!!!!! And he is in charge!!!!!
More: our press told us before he was elected, so the american people elected
him being aware of it: I cannot see why this kind of indulgence by the
american
voters should be regarded as puzzling, while the indulgence by serb voters
towards a leader who has been keeping its own country at war for 10 years is
not regarded puzzling at all but, on the contrary, something one could be
proud
of.

>> Serbs are again put on "the pillar of shame",

This will come to an end. By now no way out: bad or good, this will come to
its
end once and far all. Forever.

*****************************************************************************
«There is another sort of blow that comes from within- that you don't feel
until it's too late to do anything about it, until you realize with
finality that in some regard you will never be as good a man again»
(F.S.Fitzgerald)
Alberto Vallini

From ???@??? Wed Apr 21 13:53:00 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] invitation to debate

From: alberto vallini 

Hallo dear Brothers/Sisters/Subscribers

I'd like to invite our members to get advantage of this list by using its
features :-)

Any subject you'd like to discuss, the list is here exactly for this purpose.
We can rely on an environment that ranks 70 members so far from all around
the world, many of them with deep involvements in Masonry.
The world itself shouldn't provide too few topics to discuss about.

So I'd like just to encourage anyone who feels like to post or propose
threads for our mutual benefit.
No subject is out of topic. The list is meant for us! The only thing to
avoid is to post commercial ads ( it would include also one or two line
messages consisting in one simple url: if you want to propose an url, you
can do for sure, but at least share with us some ideas about why the issue
debated on that url is interesting, say: not the bare url with one line as
its slogan!) or abusive flaming.

In the opposite case, we will be forced to go on silently :-) ... a waste,
for a list with 70 members from every country in the world, India, Europe,
Usa, America.

PS if someone would like to introduce himself/herself ( mason or non mason,
it is the same! the list is open!!) it is possible: the list is also meant
to provide connections, despite it is not the main purpose: a list is
mainly for debating topics!

PPS I'd like to create a Masonic dictionary on the net for translating
masonic terms from one language to another: any brother or subscriber
interested could provide a TXT file to the list with as many as possible
masonic terms and titles in his/her own language: we will start comparing
them and finding out how they match with those of another language and
retreive the missing ones.

Alberto Vallini

From ???@??? Wed Apr 21 14:17:44 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Interest

From: "Mark Coyle" 

Hello all,

I am a non-Mason with a genuine interest in Masonry and it's off-shots, related
orders and the roots and evolution of such things as gnosticism, rosicrucianism,
alchemy and the like.

I am interested in the views of Masons on the list as to the magical elements of
Free-Masonry and the interelationship of orders suhc as the Rosy Croix and other
orders.  As well as the Templar aspect, the symbolism and ritual of Free-Masonry
evolved through the hermetic tradition carried out of Egypt, through Greece and Rome
into Europe and on into Rosicrucianism and then Free-Masonry.  Certain aspects of
Free-Masonry share parts of the magical and alchemistic ideas of hermeticism and
Rosicrucianism.

So, I'm interested in how Freemasons see this and particularly the evolution of the
symbolism and ritual as I mentioned.

I'm genuinely interested and am not using this as a chance to decry Free-Masonry.
Thanks for reading.

On a related matter, for British Freemasons.  I am interested in your views as to the
entry of Jim Davidson into the Masons.  A man who seems through his comedy either
deliberately or niavely to have promulgated intolerance and mistrust between races
and those of different political opinions to himself.  I know Free-Masonry is not
concerned with politics but tolerance, respect and fraternity across creeds, race and
political opinion does seem to be an aim.  His past history seems to indicate that he
may be at odds with this (although I would accept he is very niave).  Also, his many
broken marriages and leaving his children for mistresses, the extravogant life he has
led seems at odds with the way in which Freemasons seek to be.  I'm surprised with
this sort of approach to life that he was accepted.  There again, perhaps he's trying
to move on.

cheers
Mark

From ???@??? Thu Apr 22 10:27:21 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] INTRO: 
Just a short email to introduce myself.  I am not a mason (yet) 
although I have been invited to join and am awaiting my initiation.  I am 
therefore eager to know more about the roles and responsibilities of masonry, so 
if anyone can enlighten me further then please do so.  I will (hopefully) 
be joining a lodge close to my (current) home town in Lancashire, England.
I am attracted to masonry because the information which I have been shown 
to date (including a short video) shows an organisation whose moral values seem 
to parallel my own.  

However, perhaps understandably given the press that masonry occasionally 
receives, I am a little nervous about the prospect too.  For instance, I 
note the point made by Mark Coyle - on this list - that there are some 
characters (he names Jim Davidson) who's public persona seems at odds with this 
moral perspective: and wonder whether, as with other  organisations (and 
here I include some aspects of organised religions) a high ideal has been 
hijacked for baser motives: I hope not.  That said, I accept that few, if 
any of us, can pass through life without a blemish; the greatest gift of all is 
forgiveness

I hope that by following the discussions in this group I may learn 
more.
Degasian

From ???@??? Thu Apr 22 10:58:32 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: INTRO, some Davidson etc...

From: alberto vallini 

Hallo Degasian,

I dunno much about this jim Davidson, so I think that better accounts can be
given by some british Brother.
A couple of words can be said, anyway: due to unknown reasons, anytime
something strange happens there is always someone with no knowledge at all of
Free-Masonry that feel like it would be suitable to argue some involvements of
Free-Masonry also: thus you can find persons saying that Free-Masonry is in
touch
with aliens (really!) and similar oddities...
In Italy we had our share of bad persons introduced within Free-Masonry: the
organization on the whole is wonderful, has ambitious goals, and provide an
environment that is really uncommon and with a cultural level above the
average, and provides a worldwide connection network: maybe one day you could
experience how wonderfully brothers in a foreign country that never met you
before will take care of your stay in their country simply because you are a
mason.
nothing can prevent Masonry from getting some unsuitable persons among its
ranks: exactly in the same fashion nothing can prevent medical doctors from
getting some bad (even VERY bad...) surgeons among them: this does not mean
surgeons are useless!!!
moreover we must first agree about what we mean by masonry: there are LOTS and
LOTS of "masonic" communities that have no international recognition and
many a
time they are "harbours" built by outcasts rejected by the Major affiliations.
But i am confident some other Brothers can make better points than mine.
Anyway never forget: that what masonry could mean for you as a delusion or
as a
fulfilling experience, what Free-Masonry can give to you or take away from you,
none of these things are things that rely upon what Free-Masonry is or is not,
but that completely rely upon the way YOU will interpret and act out
freemsonry: Like the Old Testament said: "Thou shall not stand idly by".
Maybe in Uk enntered apprentices cannot do much, but always try to be active
(in Italy it would be easier: an entered apprentice is often allowed to speak
in Lodge by his WM!!).
Masonry is like a wonderful car: you get in you see the luxury seats, the
glittering commands, by the sound of the engine you tell its power, and than
you say "nice car, but it does not run". Of course it does not: you need to
DRIVE it!!!