State Of Panic 2 Interior minister David Planket patronisingly dismissed "airy fairy" fears about civil liberties as he announced plans to detain foreign terrorists indefinitely without a formal public trial. The plans will require the government to renege on Article 5 on the European Convention on Human Rights, which bans arbitrary detention. As a first step Mr Blunkett today declared a state of emergency, the figleaf required under the European convention rules.
Civil rights group Liberty said they would challenge the move, pointing out no other EU country had ever felt the need to abrogate from the convention. "This is a fundamental violation of the rule of law, our rights and traditional British values," Liberty director John Wadham said. "The situation in the UK does not warrant such an extreme attack on a historic core principle of British justice."
Planket claimed the numbers of people involved were very small and denied that the plan amounted to internment. He also insisted that the declaration of a state of emergency was a mere technicality. He was unable to provide a justification as to why he couldn't do this under existing laws.
Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy said the government could find itself in hot water with peers and demanded that the legislation should only remain on the statute book if subject to an annual vote in both Lords and Commons.

The War On Ted Harbert How come none of you in the US picked up on this? Am I really the only person here to watch late night chat shows, even if it's around a week later?

Anyway, Conan was talking to Anne Robinson, and she was saying how she doesn't like wearing high heels. That's not my point.

Celebrity resumes. Ah yes. Justin Timberlake:
1991, went to Disneyland, didn't get in.
1994, went to Taj Mahal, didn't get in.
1999, started dating Britney Spears... hang on, this isn't my point, either.

Ah yes. Osama bin Laden.
1967-94, enjoys the good things a life in the US can bring.
1994, captivated by the touching portrayal of adolescence on ABC's "My So-Called Life."
1995, ABC cancels "My So-Called Life."
1995- present, Jihad!!!

Kabulling it together Northern Alliance troops capture Kabul after Taliban forces scarper overnight, relinquishing the Afghan capital without a fight. Following four days of swift advances, the anti-Taliban troops moved into the city this morning in trucks and jeeps loaded with weapons to be welcomed with cheers and singing from residents. There were signs that the Taliban were abandoning other urban centres, possibly to withdraw into the remote southern mountains to wage guerrilla war. Officials with the Northern Alliance's foreign ministry said they had also seized control of the eastern city of Jalalabad, but there has been no independent confirmation.

In a radio address, the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, said he was in Kandahar and urged his followers to organise and resist opposition troops, the Pakistan based Afghan Islamic Press reported. "This is my order: that you should obey your commander. Those who desert the Taliban would be like a hen and die in some ditch".

Confronted with the fait accompli of the fall of Kabul, US officials hailed it as a breakthrough, but remained concerned that rebel forces entering the capital could prompt more fighting. World President Blair called for a UN presence in Kabul to fill the "power vacuum" left by the fleeing Taliban. He said the successor government must be "broad based" and representative of all the country's ethnic groupings.

This is, of course, as impossible as the sky turning a pinkish shade of black. Neither Taliban nor Northern Alliance has, or ever had, the means or the will to form anything recognisable to western eyes as a government. It is also madly irrelevant for western leaders to imply a smooth transition to a broader-based regime, governing with the consent of the people. It is simply not going to happen.

The war is not over. Though the Taliban forces are melting, there are bound to be - literally - diehard elements who will fight on. There are also the uncounted numbers of Arab, Pakistani, Chechen and other foreign volunteers with the Taliban and with Osama bin Laden, who know that if they surrender they will almost certainly be killed.

The Taliban may regroup and fight on as a guerrilla force. The Northern Alliance could disintegrate into warring factions. And Afghanistan may be engulfed by famine. What the alliance must do, as the de facto rulers of Kabul, is to establish and maintain order. Then, with western help, they must somehow channel rivers of emergency aid to the main cities and into the scattered communities of the wild interior. There are 7.5m people in danger of starvation, and it is clear that there could be a humanitarian catastrophe of biblical proportions.

World Politics Sara points out...
isn't it up to Afghanistan to care about their people and hand over the person that is causing all this damage?
First off, what is this "Afghanistan" of which you speak? It is a random territory on the map, one that would probably be better off as a loose collection of dozens of microstates, each presided over by a local warlord. Kabul is not Mazar-e Sharif, and neither is Kandahar, and none is Feyzabad.

what about all the civilians of the different countries that died because of the terrorist attack? do they not deserve justice?
Is this operation about justice? Or is it about revenge on a far-off country that doesn't pose much capacity to strike back? The tactics currently employed are exactly right to breed another generation of terrorists.

Quoting someone (who?)
>Bin-Laden has been trained by CIA. It's a bit ironic.
You'd think he'd have more respect for human life because of that, but apparenlty not :(
?Que? Are you suggesting the USA has respect for civilised values? A country so barbaric it still thinks it acceptable to murder people under legal auspices?

I don't agree with a lot of things that a lot of countries do. To just point a finger at the USA (even now) is somewhat pointless.
This is a fair point. No country is perfect, none are near perfect. But going around stamping one's feet is no way to run a ship.

I think NATO is a nice thing - kind of like 'Europe'.
NATO is a military alliance. After leaving Russia in 1917, Finland adopted a neutral structure, not aligning herself to east or west. With the USSR as a neighbour to the east, this is a logical move.

Its nice to belong to something that a lot of the rest of the world belongs to as well.
There's always the United Nations...

President Lixz
You can't exactly blame the citizens of a totalitarian regime for what their government is like, either, especially when I'd bet at least half of them would give almost anything to live under a different government
Look at how many have been trying to leave the country for other places, like Australia.

From a moral standpoint, I'd consider Afghan citizens essentially hostages.
From a strict moral standpoint, until there is strict freedom of movement, *everyone* is a hostage of the nation state. Look at all the trouble and heartache the restrictions on movement have caused to the people *on this list*.

even if you accept the death penalty as fair, this is like saying that if the only way to kill, Tim McVeigh for Oklahoma City was to knock out the town he lived in, we should go for it. After all, it's only fair.
This is a subtle argument, lost on the likes of Landslide Waffle Maker.

There's a lot more countries harboring terrorists out there. (Like, um, the US, which not only harbors, but trains terrorists at WHISC/the School of the Americas in Ft Benning, GA. But I digress.)
So, by this logic, the US will shortly be conducting military operations against herself. Like we see that happening outside of conspiracy theorists.

The Bush admin has been very careful never to state this as an aim of the war. That's because they know they might not achieve it.
Sorry, there are aims to this war, other than to knock down some buildings in Afghanistan? Can anyone spell them out?

If you look at what the USA Patriotism Bill actually makes *legal* in terms of surveillance, it's unbelievable. (Not to mention in terms of indefinite detention.)
The UK is trying to go down the same route, declaring an Official State Of Panic, suspending human rights, and allowing people to be detained indefinitely on the say-so of interior minister Planket.

This does not have my support. If I could withdraw taxes from this corrupt regime, I would be.

Back to Sara
ending these attacks isn't really up to the USA
Balderdash. If the US wanted to, she could end the attacks *right now.* I wish she would.

What isn't understandable is the fact that the taliban doesn't care about their people, and is willing ot have them all killed.
Oh, but the Taliban *does* care about its people. Only, its people are exactly the Taliban themselves. The rest of the people are not Taliban, are not True Believers, and hence don't really count.

Jaeda:
I wasn't going to comment any more, and I really shouldn't because my knowledge on this subject is pitifully inferior to most of you
We could have fun laughing at you, but that's *so* not the style. Education through teaching, and all that. One learns by getting things wrong.

I may be an idealist when it comes to many things, but i have never once believed that this "war" was all about just getting bin Laden.
I'm with the J on this one. What's it all about? Don't ask me, I don't know.

it just seems inconceivable that A) one person could totally be at fault for this
Was Harbert acting alone on that May night? Did he interpret signals from the cast members? Did Stephen Bochco, looking for a slot for his new serial, have a hand in the deed?

C) that this war is even just about the terrorists at all
No, it's about Doing Something When Something Must Be Seen To Be Done. No matter how ineffectual.

one of the best ways to revive a lagging economy is to declare war.
Oh, you young cynic. Anyone would think they wanted this to happen.

Just a thought or four.
Where was Dick Chainsaw on the night of the cancellation. Indeed, where was Dick Chainsaw the last two months?

Byers' Market Transport secretary Stephen Byers denies undermining or threatening the independent rail regulator in order to ensure that his plans to wind up Railtrack went through. Regulator Tom Winsor said last week that Byers had told him he would pass emergency legislation to strip him of his powers if he offered Railtrack a financial lifeline to save it from insolvency. Byers told a Commons committee he had done no more than be "open and honest" with the regulator about the consequences of action he might be contemplating.

Things They Didn't Know On The Weakest Link

• The snooker player is not John Leo.
• "Alright, Mr de Mille, I'm ready for my close up"
• John Major was never leader of the opposition. At least not formally.
• The definition of 24/7.
• Unicorns don't have antlers.
• The Spice Girl was not Victoria Spanish.

Damazer insisted the decision was not intended to downgrade the horror of the event. But if the word terrorism was used there would be implications for the description of more subjective acts of terror such as those carried out by Hamas in the Middle East or ETA in Spain.

Because of its reputation for impartiality, the World Service has to be careful about its use of language. It does not usually describe IRA attacks as terrorism, because they may not be seen as such in a world context. John Renner, commissioning editor for news programmes at the World Service, saidthat while the attacks on New York and Washington had put a strain on the policy, it had to be maintained.

US networks came in for particular criticism. Tony Burman, executive director at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, said the US coverage of the crisis had failed to take account of the international perspective: "It's depressing to see the jingoism which is lamentably part of the culture and spirit of the coverage." He said US networks regarded the attacks on Afghanistan as a football match with Washington as the home team. Comparing BBC World coverage of the war with that of the US networks, he said they appeared to describe "two different wars".

Bill Wheatley, vice-president of NBC, rejected the charge of jingoism, but said: "It's true that US networks are focusing on the attempt to defeat the Taliban and apprehend Osama Bin Laden, but I don't think we've been pulling punches in terms of the difficulties of the war effort and the problems of US foreign policy." He acknowledged that Qatari news channel al-Jazeera was not always regarded as a trusted source, despite its insistence of impartiality. "Because they have been given special status in Kabul we feel it's correct that our viewers know that they have that special access."

Sooz and Jamie .... the new Angela and Jordan? ... As If! The hit British teen sitcom "As If" is coming to America, according to The Hollywood Reporter. This would be "sitcom" in the same vein as Buffy.

The show, described by someone who has clearly never seen it as a teen "Sex In The City," follows the adventures of three boys and three girls in London, with each episode taking place entirely from one of the cast-member's perspective. It's more the ensemble cast of My So-Called Life with the swift cuts of an action movie and the honesty of Party of Five. A teen drama on a combination of speed and crack - it goes at a million miles an hour and it's completely addictive.

The American remake will air on UPN The original will be better. and the action will be transplanted to a US city I can say this before the remake has been made. under the stewardship of "The Simpsons'" writer-producer Jonathan Collier.

"As If" has received a seven-episode commitment from UPN Big deal. E4 struck for 18 x 30 episodes, and is now airing another 18 within the year, similar to a deal already struck for the show's companion program, the buddy comedy "Random Years," yet to air.

Not Being Shot At Henna .:
Israel is fighting against Palestinians who don't have their *own* state at the moment. The area is the historical home of palestinians (islamic) and they've been living there for centuries, but it's also the promised land for the Israeli-people (jewish) (GOd promised it to Abraham in the Bible).
It always helps to have a good PR. You never know when it might come in handy.

So, this god chap promises some land to one group, then goes and promises it to another group. Hmm. Sounds like someone's being a teensy-weensy bit forgetful, or someone's lying through their teeth. Either way, it's not an attractive proposition.

Anyways, Jewish and Islamic religiong have a lot in common and still they fight against each other.
The key difference is that Judaism generally tolerates other faiths - #1 in God's Top Ten only applies to his followers, not the rest of the world, where the faithful will live. Islam actively implores the faithful to convert and/or smite the faithless.

It's just so senseless.
You don't say.

Still the proves about the guiltiness of Osama Bin Laden haven't been shown in public.
In an irritating development, clearly designed to wrong-foot this list *again*, World President Blair issued a revised charge sheet on Wednesday afternoon. It still carries a disclaimer that This Will Not Stand Up In Court.

there's also teh gap between two cultures. The ones who read Koran fundamentally and the the Christians US represents. (Still don't get how any christian can actually support death-sentence
Christians sign up to God's Top Ten, where #6 is Thou Shalt Not Kill. Square this with judicial murder.

Actually I don't agree. I doesn't like Eu and Emu either.
This is a whole other topic, which deserves a thread of its own. What is the future of the European Union? It has served its central purpose: to stop the fighting between tribes in what is now France, Germany and Italy that has gone on since about 500BC. But what beyond that?

And I'm highly aginst that EU as it is now would change into federal republic.
There's a lot of scepticism amongst the whole continent. It might wash in B*****m, but that's about it.

maybe I just try to kweep quite about the whole subject.
No, you say what you want. See ep 6. If there are any lurkers who think we're a bunch of lily-livered liberals, step forward and say so. We can all learn more from debate.

---

Chelle:

> Islam actively implores the faithful to
> convert and/or smite the faithless.
I have to disagree. There are many passages in the Q'uran that insist on tolerance of other religions.
And there are many that are astoundingly intolerant. See, for instance:

"kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191);

"fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beseige them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5);

"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (5:34).

However, we could trade verses all night and advance the discussion no further. We could run a similar argument on the Christian and Jewish holy books. Such battles are left as an exercise for the reader. (Please *don't* show your working.)

The important bit came right at the end.

There are, as always, large numbers of persons who need to work on that "no compulsion in religion" bit.
There's an argument that Islam and Christianity have been engaged in a war since the former was founded around 1400 years ago. It's only in the past 300 years that Allah's chums have lost the upper hand, losing significant territory to the Jesus mates.

It's in the last 400 years that Christianity has, for many of its followers, become less obsessed with The Absolute Truth (as represented by the Pope) and become a self-critical faith, able to tolerate internal dissent on doctrinal matters. To a large extent, this is not the case within Islam.

These matters may be causally linked. Or they may be casually linked. Discuss. *Do* show your working.

Lots of sad emotions, then A Favourite Song is played - "No Matter What." Not the epic, almost apocalyptic Meat Loaf original, but the wimpy, poppy cover by Boyzone. It's a fine line between tragedy and comedy, folks, and I think we may have just crossed it with a version that cannot be taken seriously no matter how hard one tries. That the Samantha spinning the discs kept twiddling with the knobs to fade the volume didn't help. Why do people put quiet bits in their records if they're compressed to buggery?

Anyway, the service grinds to an end, and we head out. The boss comes over, and rescinds her earlier suggestion that we might get some work done after. We won't - partly because there will only be 20 minutes left by the time we get back, and partly because we're all a bit cut up.

So, adjourn to the pub for a swift half, then one of our number feels peckish and diverts to McDougals. We need to retrieve bags and coats from the office, and the receptionist remarks how pleasing it is to see that someone has done something of an office wake. Not liking to eat McDougals outside of an emergency (and Ewark airport is always an emergency) I split and do a bit of shopping at the store. More huge queues.

Back home, I find next door's kid has been locked out, and needs a bit of warmth from the nippy night. So, wind up discussing the trials and tribulations of being a young teenager for an hour. Totally unexpected, but quite clearly what was intended for the day.

More World Politics The Rev Victoria W:
I fear to think of all the real reasons and ulterior motives behind this "war".
Chris Tarrant writes...
Ho ho! Welcome back to Who Wants To Be A Premiere. Tony Blair, you have £125,000, and two lifelines; you can go Halfy-Halfy, and you can Call A Chum.

The Quarter Of A Million Pound Question: Why is this conflict taking place? Is it
A) To provide jobs for building contractors with a valid passport;
B) To provide jobs for defence contractors with connections to a political party;
C) To provide a smokescreen behind which a corrupt regime can play the patriotism card to deflect criticism from its coup d'etat;
D) To give succour to the Religious Reich in their perpetual War Against Unbelievers.

Take your time, Tony...

And what it will result in generations, or even a few years, from now. It's making me feel hostile toward Americans,
I think most sensible people can tell the excesses of the ruling clique apart from the daily life of the rest of the population. This applies to the Taliban, too.

Anyone see the new South Park? Maybe they should make Bush watch it.
Never happen. *Far* too intellectual for Landslide. He's about at home with Strip Poker.

Well it's still illegal to kill yourself...dammit. Logical, eh?
"Don't talk to me about logic," said Marvin. "Brain the size of a planet, and you're 'Get the prisoners, Marvin.' 'Open the door, Marvin.' 'Park the spaceship, Marvin.' It hurts just to think down to your level."

I had a very frustrating conversation with a coworker about this.
You really ought to stop hanging out with people who ork at animals. Especially cows.

the people in Afghanistan had been given enough time to get out of the country and they should just bomb the place away...and I stupidly tried to explain how many had tried to flee the country and were prevented
Little matter of the borders being more firmly closed than the American mind, I think.

how they, like we were, are being attacked for actions of their government.
*This* is the moral equivalence I've been looking for. The reason why the US-led actions are just as much crimes against humanity as September's. And in a nutshell, too. Hail Vic!

dumb clueless angry patriotic prejudiced look on her face and realized I was offline. Sigh.
You don't get this at Coryton, where everyone is smart and intelligent. Possibly even me.

After being through the immigration process, it's very hard to consider this a free country in any way other than the fact that I don't have to wear a veil.
Though if you're rich enough, no doubt you can smooth your passage in. Lottery, be mine.

Mohammed Atef, who as the military leader of al-Qaida is believed to have masterminded the September 11 attacks, is said to have died during a bombing raid on Kabul three days ago.

In the space of eight days, the Taliban has gone from controlling 90% of Afghanistan, including almost all its towns and cities, to holding almost none. Kunduz in the north, where about 3,000 Arab and Pakistani fighters are besieged by anti-Taliban forces, is the only city left in the hands of the Taliban.

Watched This Week

Mastermind Brought back, but shorn of the central feature that made it a hit on the BBC: the complete isolation of the contestant. Bright lights and glitzy music do not make a good game show. (BBC for Discovery, Mon-Fri 8)

As If See entry above

Mutant X Because only the terminally dense would ruin a good broadcast with pointless CGI effects. (Sky1, Weds 9)

The Race Getting better each week, but the station has a distracting smudgy DOG (ITV2, Thu 10)

Buffy The One With The Troll (BBC2) and TOW Spike Being Petty (S1). Not the best.

The Waiting Game A new game show, starring Ruby Wax. It's good, not perfect, but decent entertainment. (BBC1, Sat early evening)

Blue Peter Night A re-hash of 1998's 40th birthday celebrations, on again for no adequately explored reason. Still good fun. (BBC2, Sat 9pm)

Cold Feet Back for a new series. There may be some good comedy here, but it's also astoundingly true to life. (ITV, Sun 9pm)

The Rest Of The News

Henry McLeish resigned as the First Minister of Scotland; he had admitted receiving undeclared income totalling £36,000 over 14 years for the sub-letting of part of his office, the rent for which had already been paid by the taxpayer. Anji Hunter resigned as director of political and government relations, in reality a job working closely with the Prime Minister, in order to take up a post with BP; she was replaced by Lady Morgan, who as Sally Morgan had worked as an aide to the Prime Minister before being made a minister five months ago. Blair is to hold talks with Mr Jose Maria Aznar, the Prime Minister of Spain, and the sovereignty of Gibraltar is acknowledged to be on the agenda, to the fury of Gibraltarians. More than 99 per cent of members of the Professional Footballers’ Association voted to go on strike in pursuit of higher payment by televisers of Premier League games.

In Australia John Howard’s conservative coalition won its third successive election, in good part because of its stern resistance to admitting seafaring asylum-seekers. Delegates from 142 nations met in Dohar, Qatar, for World Trade Organisation talks intended to admit both China and Taiwan to membership. In Algeria a spell of dry weather broke with rain storms, and more than 600 died, many of them in mudslides in the working-class Bab El Oued district of Algiers, where storm drains were said to have been blocked by the authorities lest they be used by terrorists. Two Samoan fishermen survived for 132 days in an open 25ft boat, surviving on fish and seabirds and drifting 2,500 miles to New Guinea.