Babble v1 110

babble-digest Sunday, January 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 110

In this issue:
advanced web development list
Re: Your opinions - Jeep Warehouse review
Navigator Data Grid
Your opinions
Re: Your opinions
Oh boy....
Information Design
Re: Information Design
list glitches?
Re: Siegel's LandRover site
Fading with Photoshop
Re: Fading with Photoshop
Oh boy.....
correction - Landrover site...
And again.....
Re Americana
Delivery Report
Delivery Report
Message not deliverable

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 04:37:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: advanced web development list

"A List Apart"

Brian Platz and I are launching a new list on advanced web design and
development. This list will be devoted to high-end web topics, with an
equally high signal-to-noise ratio.

As of today, 280 designers, writers, editors, programmers, producers,
webmasters, and lurkers have subscribed to the list, which will begin
publication this month.

This list will complement, not compete, with babble. Babble is the
preeminent *design* list, and will remain so. It is also unmoderated.

A List Apart will be devoted to *all* aspects of web work: from pixels to
prose, scripting to structure, coding to content. It will also be
moderated, making it compact, somewhat structured, and never off-topic.

The digest will appear in your inbox at most once daily.

Beginner questions will not appear, though beginners will be pointed to
appropriately helpful resources.

To subscribe: mailto:adv@infoband.com.
Subject: anything you like. ("Sign me up!" will work just fine.)
Message: optional.

The web is the most important creative and informational medium of the
coming century. If you are helping to shape it, you belong on this list.

We'll keep a light on for ya.

Jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"Slick and experimental." - Mediadome

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:25:15 -0000
From: "Howard Shaw" <hjs@hetleys.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Your opinions - Jeep Warehouse review

Hi Ken

I would agree with Dana. The site commits many of the design flaws of
first generation design - in-your-face backgrounds, hit counter,
unnecessary borders on tables, no margins, ineffective use of white
space. Yes, reading CKWS would be an excellent step.

Also, nobody is going to lay out $30,000 on the basis of a web site
alone. The aim of the site should be to communicate the excitement of
owning a jeep. The emphasis should be on life styles and aspirations not
prices and specs.

Howard Shaw
Email: hjs@hetleys.co.uk

- -----Original Message-----
From: Dana Adams <dana@studiowerks.com>
To: Ken Zvokel <kmzvokel@iquest.net>
Cc: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
Date: 03 January 1998 19:09
Subject: Re: Your opinions

>Ken you asked for opinions about the site you designed:
>http://www.jeepwarehouse.com
>
>I would suggest starting with a thorough reading of David Siegel's book
>Creating_Killer_Web_Sites. You've made just about every mistake there
is
>to be made in site design (according to the CKWS book).
>
>If you (and your client) want people to buy $15-30K vehicles from an
>on-line forum you must make it compelling - at a minimum, fresh content
>is something I would consider essential -- that is if I were looking
for
>information to make a buying decision, second would be price which
seems
>pretty competitive at the site.
>
>Have a look at http://best4x4.landrover.com/ - LandRover's US site --
>this web site is written up in David Siegel's recent book
>Secrets_of_Successful_Web_Sites and is an excellent example of what can
>be done in this medium both from a design & engineering perspective.
>
>Well Ken, you asked for opinions and I'm sure there are more on the way
>from other list members. Don't take them personally -- remember:
>
>"That which does not kill us makes us stronger" - Nietzsche
>
>--
>s t u d i o w e r k s
>mailto:dana@studiowerks.com | http://www.studiowerks.com
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to
majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:42:27 +0000
From: "Jeff A. Pendl" <jpendl@coil.com>
Subject: Navigator Data Grid

Does anyone know of a good Navigator 3.x-4.x data grid plug-in to use with a MS
SQL server back end? If this isn't available, has anyone seen/designed a site
that incorporates this via forms, etc.? Thanks for your help.

JAP
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 07:51:19 -0800
From: Phil <scimone@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Your opinions

Dana Adams wrote:
<snip>

> You sell your clients
> short if you approach design as an afterthought. The "As time permits"
>
> ethic diminishes the importance of the image, identity and awareness
> aspects of marketing.

</snip>

Don't think I was implying that design is an afterthought. As a classic
software developer for the last 18 years, there are numerous
similarities between developing software and web site design. Good
design, in my opinion, is the process of iterating a software lifecycle
model: feasibility, analysis, design, implementation, testing, and
release. The goal is to catch a design error as close to the front of
the cycle as possible. Within it all, managing customer expectation is
paramount. If a client doesn't want bells and whistles, you sell them
short by trying to convice them that they need bells and whistles. If I
give them what they want and pay for, and they are happy, I would
consider that a sucessful project. Even so, there would still be special
interest groups that consider it bad design because it wasn't done there
way.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't sites out there that make everyone
cringe. Some were even thrown up in a week no doubt. I am suggesting
that labeling a site as "bad" would imply that you know something about
what the requirements were. It is possible, however, to state that
something is unattractive without knowledge of the requirements.

There are numerous books on the market about what "good site design" is.
And I do find them somewhat contradictory at times. I do NOT think it
possible to read one book and judge all web sites by it. For instance,
take a look at Roger Parker's "GUIDE TO WEB CONTENT AND DESIGN", which
contains very good and practical information. My favorite quote is:
"Many Web sites fail to achieve their full potential because too much
emphasis is placed on the Web site's appearance. A good-looking Web site
without meaningful content is as unlikely to succeed as a well-designed
web site with good content that nobody visits."

Another book I'm currently reading is "Web Concept & Design" by Crystal
Waters, although I'm not far enough along to have an opinion about it.

David Siegel's approach is that all web sites should be designed by
graphic artists, which I personally find to be ridiculous and nothing
more than marketing hype.

Hmmm, maybe this list should be the David Siegel fan club list.

Regards.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 08:51:08 -0800
From: net-make <webmaster@net-make.com>
Subject: Re: Your opinions

>David Siegel's approach is that all web sites should be designed by
>graphic artists, which I personally find to be ridiculous and nothing
>more than marketing hype.

- ---------------------------

I agree. I would rather visit a site that is attractive yet full of the
correct content than sit and wait for someone's 16K JPG to load - then see
nothing but a blurred photo with small colorful lines on it.

No one person defines what makes a great site and what dosen't (despite
Siegel's gloating at WebReference).

- - MLB
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 98 12:28:47 -0500
From: Matthew Snow <snow@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Oh boy....

>>David Siegel's approach is that all web sites should be designed by
>>graphic artists, which I personally find to be ridiculous and nothing
>>more than marketing hype.

>I agree. I would rather visit a site that is attractive yet full of the
>correct content than sit and wait for someone's 16K JPG to load - then see
>nothing but a blurred photo with small colorful lines on it.

Whoa...what is going on here? Is everyone who is responding forgetting
about context? I mean, 16k isn't a large file at all, and if the blurred
photo with colorful lines fits in context of the page, and it works, then
so be it.

People, the idea of graphic design is to effectively communicate a
message. If you forget this basic fact then you fail as a designer. Yes,
let content drive design. Yes, a fair rendition of a powerful idea is
better than a great rendition of a mediocre idea.

Instead of trashing Siegel's approach, think about it first. Designed by
designers...who whould have thunk it? Marketing hype? C'mon, define
marketing. Define hype. I dare you.
Maybe the point he was trying to make is that graphic designers should be
able to design any site, that they should have the skills and the mindset
to design any site, not that graphic designers should design sites
because they make things look pretty.

I am not rah-rahing Siegel, but he is very knowledgeable about graphic
design, and I am humble enough to keep an open mind and learn, but
comfortable enough to know when I am right.

Graphic designers do more than Photoshop work. We take content and let it
shape our ideas and designs. We use the content in the best way possible.
If the content is mediocre, then usually the success of the design is
mediocre. Fluff only goes so far.

Smart designers have smart ideas and sharp pencils, not a lot of filters
and fonts.

Matt

snow design
portland, maine.
207.774.5452
snow@maine.rr.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 12:48:27 +0000
From: douglas farrick <dfarrick@javanet.com>
Subject: Information Design

Does anyone have information ( reading, courses, companies) and/or
advice as to how to update/transfer skills from traditional graphic
design to the relatively new field of information design/architecture.
Thanks. Doug.
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 13:03:03 -0500
From: Steven Champeon <schampeo@hesketh.com>
Subject: Re: Information Design

At 12:48 PM 1/4/98 +0000, douglas farrick graced us with:
> Does anyone have information ( reading, courses, companies) and/or
> advice as to how to update/transfer skills from traditional graphic
> design to the relatively new field of information design/architecture.

Start with the book "Information Architects" by Richard Saul Wurman.
Then get embroiled in the controversy over who is closer to the truth
of what Information Design/Architecture is all about by reading a few
Edward Tufte books. I recommend "Envisioning Information" and "Visual
Explanations".

Unless you're really into Clement Mok, you can probably skip his
"Designing Business", which although pretty good, tends towards the
advertisement more than the theory or more practical instruction.

HTH,
S

- --
Steven Champeon | "I guess I just can't stand
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ | the sound of piano music."
http://a.jaundicedeye.com | -- Glenn Gould
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:39:58 -0500
From: Chris Spruck <cspruck@mindspring.com>
Subject: list glitches?

Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple "non-delivery report" mails
from Gateway@CSERVE5.CCMAIL.compuserve.com? We're talkin' 5 or 6 identical
copies a day for the past few days. I'm also getting two copies a day of
the digest version of the list (with a subject of "message not
deliverable"), which I never subscribed to at all, in addition to the
regular one-at-a-time posts. Thanks!

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 13:15:02 -0600
From: Kris Kendrick <kris@actworld.net>
Subject: Re: Siegel's LandRover site

With all due respect to Dave - Land Rover's site was designed and
produced by Adjacency.

Kris

- --
Kris Kendrick :.......:
Creative Director
:.......: http://www.actworld.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:37:02 EST
From: TheGilster <TheGilster@aol.com>
Subject: Fading with Photoshop

Hi List,
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to create an elliptical fade
in Photoshop. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Gil Kruger
Zob New Media, Inc.
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 16:53:33 -0500
From: leslie harpold <leslie@fearless.net>
Subject: Re: Fading with Photoshop

At 03:37 PM 1/4/98 EST, TheGilster wrote:
>Hi List,
> I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to create an elliptical fade
>in Photoshop. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
in rgb mode, do the following:

1. create a new blank layer
2. make a gradient that goes from bg color to transparent. apply gradient
to layer.
3. make a selection (elliptical) with the selection tool the size of the
elipses you want
4. invert that selection
5 delete the inverted selction
use the opacity slider to select your preferred transparency level
6. merge the layer down.

that should do it for you. hope this helps.

leslie harpold
http://smug.com http://www.hoopla.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"the answer is there, but 'there' is not a
fixed position" - Fugazi
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 14:13:36 -0800
From: Phil <scimone@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Oh boy.....

Matthew Snow wrote:
<snip>

> People, the idea of graphic design is to effectively communicate a
> message. If you forget this basic fact then you fail as a designer.
> Yes,
> let content drive design. Yes, a fair rendition of a powerful idea is
> better than a great rendition of a mediocre idea.

</snip>

I agree. And I wasn't suggesting that graphic artists are not good site
designers. I just believe that good design is a lot more involved than
the presentation. A well designed site can have a poor interface (see
Alan Cooper's ABOUT FACE, The Essentials of User Interface Design). This
doesn't make the site poorly designed -- only the interface.

<snip>

> Marketing hype? C'mon, define
> marketing. Define hype. I dare you.

</snip>

Marketing hype is the art of seducing customers into purchasing what
they really don't need. The LandRover site is a good example. Isn't the
goal to seduce me into thinking that if I really want to enjoy life, I
just have to do it in a LandRover? And to provide the links to all those
wonderful people enjoying their LandRover is to suggest that I'm missing
all the fun? And do I really need a LandRover?

Hey, I'm not knocking the power and persuasion graphic artistry brings
to the web. If I want a well-designed web site, I'll hire a database
designer. If I want the site to seduce my customers into buying my
product, I'll hire David's firm. And if I want it have an intelligent
interface, I'll hire an interface designer.

And what about metaphor. Isn't it -- and correct me if I'm wrong --
really just the presentation of an archetype? Humans have relationships
to archtypes, not metaphor (I think). Metaphor might lead me into the
archtype, and then again, it may not. It's not that the metaphor is
important, but rather, what the archetype is that the metaphor
expresses. Again, an example where the emphasis is being misplaced on
presentation? To truly touch my client, I'll hire a master of archetype,
not a student of metaphor.

By the way, I really don't believe that all sites should be black and
red either. I'm sure I'll get a few flames for that...

Regards,
Phil

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 18:38:02 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: correction - Landrover site...

Someone wrote: "Does Siegel's LandRover site..."

Actually, the Landrover site, was done by Adjancey, a currently hot Web
shop of 20-somethings.

http://www.adj.com/

I do like their work overall BUT I can always spot one of their site
because they all look alike.

This person's slight error wasn't too far off the mark though, in that
they are David Seigel adherants. So much so that I think he did a
foreward in their book, 'Creating Killer Interactive Web Sites"

http://www.adj.com/killer/

and he mentions them in his book.

As someone who reads and reviews books on Web publishing/development
(see my site, URL in sig), I thought their book was WAY overpriced. In
fact, I traded it in for Siegel's latest, "Secrets of Successful Sites"

http://www.secretsites.com

They have also done the sites for Lufthansa, Rollerblade, Motorola,
Apple Computer Store, Patagonia, Kemper Funds, Espirit, and a number of
other major 'brands':

http://www.lufthansa-usa.com/

http://www.rollerblade.com/

http://www.patagonia.com/

http://www.powerbar.com/

http://www.kemper.com/

http://www.esprit.com/

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 98 19:07:09 -0500
From: Matthew Snow <snow@maine.rr.com>
Subject: And again.....

>Hey, I'm not knocking the power and persuasion graphic artistry brings
>to the web. If I want a well-designed web site, I'll hire a database
>designer. If I want the site to seduce my customers into buying my
>product, I'll hire David's firm. And if I want it have an intelligent
>interface, I'll hire an interface designer.

With that statement you just said that a graphic designer cannot make a
well-designed site. Why would a database designer make a well-designed
site? What is your definition of "well-designed"? Wouldn't a site that
was created to sell something have to be well-designed for it to be
successful? Doesn't an intelligent interface tie it all in? Where is the
seperation?

In my opinion, well-designed takes EVERYTHING into account, not just the
looks. Good graphic designers know this. If you are used to dealing with
newbie designers that make things look good for the sake of looking good
then you misunderstand design, and all that goes into it.

I have designed sites that have successful interfaces, are well-designed,
and "sell the message", whether it be Land Rovers or ideas. That is what
I am trained to do, and what I constantly strive for. I may not suceed
all the time (by executing a bad idea by my own faults, by being given
terrible content from the client, or by technical limitations) but I
would like to believe that as a designer I have an obligation to be
smart. Well-designed sites are smart, successful GUI's are smart, and
making your message clear is smart. Why seperate everything?

Matt

snow design
portland, maine.
207.774.5452
snow@maine.rr.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 11:43:49 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Re Americana

>My partner feels Americana is a much maligned font in the graphics
>community and unworthy of consideration. I happen to think it really
>works for this particlular word combo

Then use it...I don't see there is such a thing as a bad typeface, only
bad (inappropriate) usage. If it looks good, then not using it because
it is not a 'trendy' typeface amongst others seems a bit...well...you
could always use Emigre Mason like everyone else nowdays ;-)

Caleb Fuller
Analog Creations
email@calebfuller.com
..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #110
****************************

Previous | ToC | Next