Babble v1 123

babble-digest Sunday, January 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 123

In this issue:
Re: PHILOSOPHY: Tool Wars
Re: mac/pc software use
Re: strunk & white
unrelevant postings
Re: mac/pc software use
lack of design quality in europe?
Saving Gif's In PS
Re: unrelevant postings
I.E. 4 for Mac
Re: Saving Gif's In PS
Re: Saving Gif's In PS
Re: lack of design quality in europe?
Grammar and Typing and Stupid Posting
Re: Grammar and Typing and Stupid Posting
Slicing images in PS4
Re: Saving Gif's In PS
Re: Grammar and Typing and Stupid Posting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:15:28 +0100
From: Christian Kirschniak <ck@dsein.com>
Subject: Re: PHILOSOPHY: Tool Wars

Porter Glendinning wrote:

> It seems to me that all the discussions floating around about which HTML
> tools are better than which others are, to a certain extent, misdirected.
> They mostly seem to revolve around vague questions like, "What tool should
> I use to make Web pages?" or, "Which tool is better: Dreamweaver or
> NetObjects Fusion?"

> I would suggest that these issues are largely immaterial and unanswerable
> in the form that they are being asked. The product created by these tools
> is not so much related to their innate quality as it is to the knowledge of
> the designers using them. Someone well versed in Web design and HTML could
> produce pages of equal quality with any of the tools that are on the
> market. On the flip side, someone with minimal knowledge of the subject
> will produce work consummate with their level of experience regardless of
> which tool they use. Quality has and will always come from the craftsman,
> not the tool.

I would not disagree to that. But if you consider the new possibilites,
techniques and customer´s wishes, you have to agree that we need tools to speed
up our process of work. For real: I think that more than 90 % of all Websites do
lack any design quality at all. And if you go to Europe, where I work, you will
seldom see a real good arranged website with a bit of quality. That is because
Internet access is still very expensive and the people are happy with any
presentation on the web at all! Only huge companies can afford to put money into
designer, not just "html-Programmers". Small and middle sized companies need a
fast and inexpensive solution for there websites. By using tools like
Cyberstudio or Fusion, one can produce websites with state of the art quality (I
certainly mean not a top design project, but a site with good navigation
features and an own corporate design approach) in a very small amount of time.
And the site organization will be more easy as well.

>
>
> The most important question when considering which tool to use is, "Which
> tool makes *me* more productive, and helps *me* to overcome obstacles
> hampering *my* creativity?" The only true answer to this question is
> experimentation -- trial and error. Work with several different tools --
> most vendors offer free trial versions of the software for just this
> purpose (* See Ref. 1.) -- and find which one you like the best. (Usability
> studies show that the programs that users tend to like more are the ones
> that make them more productive, unlike Web sites, by the way. * See Ref. 2.)
>

You are right!

> I want to be very clear: I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss tools on
> this list. What I am saying, however, is that this list should not be the
> first line of attack for assessing the quality and usefulness of a
> particular tool, which is largely a matter of personal preference and the
> particular tasks a you need a tool to be able to perform. Try the tools out
> first and form your own opinion of them. If you still have questions after
> that, I guarantee you that they will be much more focused and detailed, and
> will generate much more interesting discussion on the list than questions
> like, "What tool should I be using to build Web pages?"
>

You may be right on this! But consider that not anyone has really the time to
try and play with tools like that. So some real good comments on this tool could
really be help. (I don´t mean comments like: "Dreamweaver is the best" or
something like that, I mean a real description of the tool´s feature mixed up
with own experiences by using it as a tool, not as a toy) Sometimes these
discussions sound to me like the old "A MAC is better than a
Wintel"-Discussion...

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:54:32 +0000
From: Jason Holland <jason@head-newmedia.com>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

Many PC's have a higher contrast setting for the monitor setup (usually as
default) but this could only be described as *not a correct
representation*. Take the 216 web colours. You'll find on most PC screens
that up to 10 of the colours end up as black, and up to 6 of the lighter
colours end up as white. I realise I'm forced to accept this error in a lot
of PC technology and my designs must often take this very much into
account, but the popularity of the PC platform must never automatically be
seen as *the most correct solution*.

Please realise these are simply the facts, not a PC bash. I know many
designers producing very high quality work on PC's.

Just get an accurate gamma toggle extension and you can easily flip between
the 2 settings by the press of a key.

Jason Holland (Creative Director)
Head New Media 444 Brixton Road London
Tel: +44(0)171 737 7579 Fax: +44 (0)171 737 7971
http://www.head-newmedia.com http://www.head-space.com/Jay

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 06:07:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: strunk & white

At 06:07 PM 1/10/98 -0800, Jim Bass wrote:
>Whoever said that using capital letters is optional? Do you really save that
>much time being sloppy? The rules of grammar were invented to facilitate
>communication. Just because it is email doesn't confer absolution.

newbie questions are okay on an advanced web designer's list.
flame wars are fine.
dozens of bounced mails? no problem.
mime attachments? they're swell.
"which wysiwyg is best?" let's have hundreds more.
replies which include an entire previous digest? give us more and more of
them.

but lowercase sentences? god forbid.

oh, my people, my people ...

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"Slick and experimental." - Mediadome

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:42:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Ric <Ric@alternet.nl>
Subject: unrelevant postings

This is a short comment about unrelevant postings to this list. As I recall
this list is about webdesign and closely related items. Postings about
grammar and other irrelevant items not relating to the lists subject are off
the record. By posting email about grammar you will discourage people from
other countries to participate in ongoing discussions on this list.

So for everyone on this list, if you don't like it get of it.

BTW thanks Porter for your conscise comment about software. Those postings
are really usefull.

BTW 2. Does anyone know a good online tutorial

Ric..

_____________ AlterNET Webarchitectuur Rotterdam______________

webdesign, webmarketing, trainingen en Internet consultancy
tel: (010) 466 16 87/e-mail: info@AlterNET.nl/Ric@AlterNET.nl
Met maandelijkse nieuwsbrief over Internetontwikkelingen op:
http://www.alterNET.nl/nieuws/

___________________http://www.AlterNET.nl__________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:40:45 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net> writes
>i will not be lambasted by your ignorance and stupidity as to denounce
>something other than the way you do it. especially when you proclaim such
>a thing to a whole list.

>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Jim Bass wrote:
>
>> Whoever said that using capital letters is optional? Do you really save that
>> much time being sloppy? The rules of grammar were invented to facilitate
>> communication.

not the caps no caps thing. jim, i fundamentally disagree with you about the
nature of grammar, given that it's inception was surely related to the oral
tradition rather than any concept of print. sentencing, punctuation et al have
evovled in an attempt to mimic speech. modern readers are, in my opinion, gifted
with more subtlety in their skills, and to that end, do not need many of the
signpost conventions that earlier readers (esp hi-style) relied upon.

this isn't a slagging match: there are better things to discuss than this (try:
"new media metaphor-imitation or innovation?" if you're running short). enough
of the conservatism, eh jeff? again, agreement as ever on the issues you raise.

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:46:48 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: lack of design quality in europe?

Christian Kirschniak <ck@dsein.com> writes
>And if you go to Europe, where I work, you will
>seldom see a real good arranged website with a bit of quality.

- --
this may be your experience christian. but i think there is a lot of cool stuff
happening, esp in the UK: webfactory, antirom, blue wave, thought are all doing
really cool work. especially antirom's cd multimedia stuff. if any of you get
the chance, get your hands on the d-code project they worked on along with jmw.
inspirational.
(it maybe only available in the UK though. i don't know)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:59:29 EST
From: TheGilster <TheGilster@aol.com>
Subject: Saving Gif's In PS

Dear List,
I am new to Photoshop and I would like to ask what might be a basic
question. How come I can't save an image in Photoshop 4.01 as a Gif? And is
there a way to create Gif Animations in Photoshop? I would also appreciate
any recommendations for books on learning Photoshop. Or a Tips and Tricks
Book on Photoshop as well.

Thanks,
Gil Kruger
Zob New Media, Inc.
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:07:43 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: unrelevant postings

Oh Ric ...

<rant>
Irrelevant? Or am I now being irreverent. YoU mUst 'scuse the sarcasm but I
do get so tired of people that keep writing "if you don't like it get of(f)
it". Newbies are flamed, until Jeffrey assumes the role of reason, and the
collective rally (perhaps from embarrassment) to the new cause. I
personally have no problem with flames, nor with off-topic questions. I'm
also pretty certain that when I am learning new skills and posting
questions on other lists, my questions appear to be somewhat base to others
(despite having read the faq).

I must state - off the record (?) - that I do not believe that posting
questions pertaining to grammatical/typographical tardiness will discourage
people from posting.

Regarding your question about a good online tutorial. Yes, there are many
good online tutorials, but it rather depends on what subject .. not
grammatical by any chance?
</rant>

I'm really a nice chap, and do understand what you were trying to say. But
it so tiresome when people attempt to say what people can and cannot do.
Moderators aside.

Gary.

At 01:42 PM 1/11/98 +0100, Ric wrote:
>This is a short comment about unrelevant postings to this list. As I recall
>this list is about webdesign and closely related items. Postings about
>grammar and other irrelevant items not relating to the lists subject are off
>the record. By posting email about grammar you will discourage people from
>other countries to participate in ongoing discussions on this list.
>
>So for everyone on this list, if you don't like it get of it.
>
>BTW thanks Porter for your conscise comment about software. Those postings
>are really usefull.
>
>BTW 2. Does anyone know a good online tutorial
>
>Ric..

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
- -----------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:17:12 -0500
From: "William C. Stratas" <president@planetcast.com>
Subject: I.E. 4 for Mac

RE: MSIE 4.0 for Mac, released last Tuesday

I downloaded it immediately upon release last week
<www.microsoft.com/ie/mac/>, all 17 Mb of the full package, bells and
whistles, etc. But first I downloaded their recommended installer
program (300k) which receives your main download and then holds all the
components in compressed form, ready to install on other machines over a
local network, etc. Very nice!

IE 4 for Mac is a thing of beauty, many cool features, totally stable,
great Java performance, it's an all round masterpiece. Of course it does
NOT melt into your Mac desktop and perform all the interface
interference as on Windows. Have I been assimilated? No, but it is worth
the time to get it, play with it, and maybe even designate it as your
default browser.

**** babble-certified, 100% spelling mistake-free message ****

~~~~~~~~~~~~ Planetcast Presentations, Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:32:28 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Saving Gif's In PS

TheGilster <TheGilster@aol.com> writes
> I am new to Photoshop and I would like to ask what might be a basic
>question. How come I can't save an image in Photoshop 4.01 as a Gif?

file/export/gif89a
(make sure color mode=indexed)
try www.photoshop.org
there's a good list of ps4 tips/tricks and review of books currently avail.
not really cutting edge, but there you go

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:53:13 -0500
From: Liam Casey <zeppo@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Saving Gif's In PS

TheGilster wrote:

> Dear List,
> I am new to Photoshop and I would like to ask what might be a
> basic
> question. How come I can't save an image in Photoshop 4.01 as a Gif?
> And is
> there a way to create Gif Animations in Photoshop? I would also
> appreciate
> any recommendations for books on learning Photoshop. Or a Tips and
> Tricks
> Book on Photoshop as well.

You can save images as gifs within Photoshop, but not through the
typical save command. Instead, they must be exported into gif89 format
(scroll to the "Export" command under the file menu and select gif89).
I'm not exactly sure, but an educated guess has me thinking that
Photoshop does this because gifs, being limited to 256 colors, don't
comply with most of the images used in Photoshop. As of now (and
probably any time soon) you cannot create gif animations with
Photoshop. The best book that i've ever sceen on learning Photoshop
is called Photoshop 4 Artistry, by Barry Haynes and Wendy Crumpler. For
more advanced use, check out Real World Photoshop 4, by David Blatner
and Bruce Fraser. Mind you, this latter book is not so much a "tips and
tricks" guide (though it does provide plenty), but more a resource that
will explain how to do pretty much anything that would be done in
Photoshop on a normal basis (the authors even take pride in making the
statement, "Pinch, Ripple, and Spherize filters not covered!").
For more information on Photoshop books, you can visit this page:
http://www.aa.net/~davidh/PSBooks/RealWorldPS4.html

- -Liam

------------------------------

Date: Son, 11 Jan 98 16:05:08 -0000
From: Christian Kirschniak <ck@dsein.com>
Subject: Re: lack of design quality in europe?

>Christian Kirschniak <ck@dsein.com> writes
>>And if you go to Europe, where I work, you will
>>seldom see a real good arranged website with a bit of quality.
>
>--
>this may be your experience christian. but i think there is a lot of cool
>stuff
>happening, esp in the UK: webfactory, antirom, blue wave, thought are all
>doing
>really cool work. especially antirom's cd multimedia stuff. if any of you get
>the chance, get your hands on the d-code project they worked on along with
>jmw.
>inspirational.
>(it maybe only available in the UK though. i don't know)

I didn´t mean it to general. But the fact is that in German-speaking countries a lot of people don´t really know what good web-design is. We have some very good designers and websites in Germany, and I think there are more than enough people in Europe who know what to do, but the usual European customer doesn´t spend enough money because he is not aware of the medum. The result is that al lot of web designers I know don´t look for quality, they look for quantity. The average hour wage for a web designer in my area is under $50 (often between 25-40 --- and Germany isn´t a poor country...). (I worked in the US, last year and the customers paid more than $200 or a medium talented designer) I would really like to open a discussion about this topic. (In my opinion a designer should be paid for a project, not for an hour)

I hope that doesn´t sound to frustrated.

Best wishes to all

Christian Kirschniak "Life is too short to drink cheap beer..."
_________________________________________________________________________
Email: carpenoctem@geocities.com HP: http://geocities.datacellar.net/paris/metro/9140/index.html (private)
Business: ck@dsein.com HP http://www.dsein.com
S-Mail: Albblickstrasse 5, 72411 Bodelshausen, Germany

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:48:12 -0600
From: Chana Campos <writers@swbell.net>
Subject: Grammar and Typing and Stupid Posting

i will not be lambasted by your ignorance and stupidity as to denounce
> something other than the way you do it. especially when you proclaim such
> a thing to a whole list.

By posting this, you are displaying incredible arrogance which can't be
seen
to be justified by the subject. I didn't know you had to be an English
major to use good
grammar and spelling (by the way, you mispelled(typed) "fell" I think
you meant
"felt".

> we are not english majors here, my grammer is just fine and i fell that my
> communication far surpass those of the ordinary individual.

Well, actually your grammar ISN'T "just fine". "Communication" should be
plural here,
and in the next paragraph you have an incomplete phrase - so your
sentence doesn't
make sense. You also have three spelling errors. "fell", "grammer" -
(it's "grammar")
and "thing" (I think you meant "think"...In the first paragraph, by the
way, the first sentence
doesn't make any sense at all due to its poor construction and the next
sentence isn't complete.
So - no - your grammar is not "just fine".

And your "communication" far surpass those of the ordinary
individual????

Oh - PLEASE...give us a BREAK!!!! <LOL!!!!>

> please thing before you post such nonsense.. and any further replies be
> made to me personally. you will be charge a .05 cent per word copywriting
> fee to read these responses also. operators are standing by.
>

I don't believe that you have risen to such exalted status
that you can tell people where to post and where not to. It's one of the
nicer things about the Net, isn't it? (Also, WE should be charging YOU
for
copyediting - not the other way around - or didn't you know that???)

Lighten up and give us a break from your pomposity...and you might look
into either typing lessons or an English grammar book. And as far as
"thinking" goes,
perhaps you should try it before posting such nonsense to the board
again.

Chana
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:40:16 -0000
From: "Diogo N. Heleno" <np59re@mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: Grammar and Typing and Stupid Posting

Hi Chana,
I am portuguese, and English is not my main language, altough I read it and
write it fairly well...

Language exists as a way to help people to communicate, not to make
communication between people harder.

When I meet an American that speaks a language either than their mother
language, and when I also speak it (portuguese or spanish or french), I
don't laugh at him/her about their stupid mistakes. Wich are preety normal
mistakes.

This list is intended to help designers communicate, and share experiences
and ideas. There are a lot of english usage newslists on the web. I guess
your comments are more apropriate to those lists.

If you spend your time looking for the mistakes, you might loose some
interesting topics that appear here... But then, it is your choise,

Regards,
Diogo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:42:07 EST
From: TheGilster <TheGilster@aol.com>
Subject: Slicing images in PS4

Dear List,
How does one slice an image into pieces in PhotoShop 4 for faster web
loading? Are there any guides in the program to slice accurately? I want to
learn the process, not some plug-in.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:45:40 -0800
From: Jorge Hurtado <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: Saving Gif's In PS

Paul Frost wrote:
>
> TheGilster <TheGilster@aol.com> writes
> > I am new to Photoshop and I would like to ask what might be a basic
> >question. How come I can't save an image in Photoshop 4.01 as a Gif?
>
> file/export/gif89a
> (make sure color mode=indexed)
> try www.photoshop.org
> there's a good list of ps4 tips/tricks and review of books currently avail.
> not really cutting edge, but there you go
>
> "don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
> Paul Frost Web Development
> www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
> paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

..Also try going to this wonderful site one of our helpful list members
suggested:
http://www.visi.com/~drozone/handson/
It's got some really good tips!
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:50:48 -0600
From: Chana Campos <writers@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Grammar and Typing and Stupid Posting

Diogo N. Heleno wrote:
>
> Hi Chana,
> I am portuguese, and English is not my main language, altough I read it and
> write it fairly well...
>
> Language exists as a way to help people to communicate, not to make
> communication between people harder.
>
> When I meet an American that speaks a language either than their mother
> language, and when I also speak it (portuguese or spanish or french), I
> don't laugh at him/her about their stupid mistakes. Wich are preety normal
> mistakes.
>
> This list is intended to help designers communicate, and share experiences
> and ideas. There are a lot of english usage newslists on the web. I guess
> your comments are more apropriate to those lists.
>
> If you spend your time looking for the mistakes, you might loose some
> interesting topics that appear here... But then, it is your choise,
>
> Regards,
> Diogo
Diogo N. Heleno wrote:
>
> Hi Chana,
> I am portuguese, and English is not my main language, altough I read it and
> write it fairly well...
>
> Language exists as a way to help people to communicate, not to make
> communication between people harder.
>
> When I meet an American that speaks a language either than their mother
> language, and when I also speak it (portuguese or spanish or french), I
> don't laugh at him/her about their stupid mistakes. Wich are preety normal
> mistakes.
>
> This list is intended to help designers communicate, and share experiences
> and ideas. There are a lot of english usage newslists on the web. I guess
> your comments are more apropriate to those lists.
>
> If you spend your time looking for the mistakes, you might loose some
> interesting topics that appear here... But then, it is your choise,
>
> Regards,
> Diogo
Excuse me - but I am not "looking for mistakes". The gentleman who
posted the message that I was replying to was rude, insulting and
very nasty. He was insulting another person gratuitously and boasting
about his "linguistic abilities" - he deserved to be called on it. He
very much began this exchange by his insulting, demeaning remarks. I do
not go looking for mistakes in English and grammar - my comments to him
were very tongue-in-cheek and I used sarcasm to make my point.

He should not have posted his remarks in the first place
and then boasted about his abilities unless he wanted to be judged
by them.

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #123
****************************

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