Babble v1 122

babble-digest Sunday, January 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 122

In this issue:
Software reviews
cooltools+no mac availability
Re: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...
PHILOSOPHY: Tool Wars
Re: mac/pc software use
TECH: Re: mac/pc software use
Re: mac/pc software use
Re: mac/pc software use
Re: mac/pc software use
Re: mac/pc software use
Re: mac/pc software use
Web Actions by popular request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:49:37 +0100
From: Andrea di Varmo <sinetica@mailbox.nauta.it>
Subject: Software reviews

>From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
>Subject: Re: Software Reviews
>
>> I prefer FrontPage because I can see how the page will look at
>> the time I'm still creating it (with an acceptable level of accuracy).

I currently use Visual Page 1.1 from Symantec and it's quite good. It
treats the code with "gloves", apart from some glitches - try to add a
javascript command to open a window in a href tag and it's deleted. table
handling is good, so frames editing. it now support font groups but
currently no css. the liveupdate feature has provided me with two updates
in a short time.

Andrea di Varmo

* Direttore responsabile Friuli on line - http://fol.nauta.it/
(testata giornalistica con i supplementi Vita d@ nauta e libernauta)
* c/o Sinetica group - http://www.sinetica.it
Via Paluzza 15, 33100 Udine Italy
Fax ++39 432 481038 Tel ++39 432 481028
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:44:38 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: cooltools+no mac availability

Andrea di Varmo <sinetica@mailbox.nauta.it> writes

>I currently use Visual Page 1.1 from Symantec and it's quite good.
for total site management, hahtsite is unbeatable. a cross between a decent
wyzzy editor and a ms visual interdev. css, java/script, cgi stuff without
painful programming, dHTML and ecommerce is a breeze.

enough of the ad though. it is such a shame that
a) it's only wintel compliant
b) it's 1.5k pounds (sterling)

this leads me to wonder, however, how many designers are being forced by client
requirements to use wintel machines? constant switching between an apple and an
NT box is killing me

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:06:38 -0500
From: Liam Casey <zeppo@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Old and new question: Which HTML-SW to use...

Matt Newell wrote:

> it all comes down to how much you know, if youre not comfy with html,
> use
> a whizzy whig, and Dreamweaver is very nice (VERY). otherwise stick to
>
> what you know (homesite 3.0)
>
> the only downside is that the proggy (dw) costs 300$us :| heh. go
> figure.

Perhaps, but it also comes with Homesite packaged in.

- -Liam

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:20:06 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: PHILOSOPHY: Tool Wars

It seems to me that all the discussions floating around about which HTML
tools are better than which others are, to a certain extent, misdirected.
They mostly seem to revolve around vague questions like, "What tool should
I use to make Web pages?" or, "Which tool is better: Dreamweaver or
NetObjects Fusion?"

I would suggest that these issues are largely immaterial and unanswerable
in the form that they are being asked. The product created by these tools
is not so much related to their innate quality as it is to the knowledge of
the designers using them. Someone well versed in Web design and HTML could
produce pages of equal quality with any of the tools that are on the
market. On the flip side, someone with minimal knowledge of the subject
will produce work consummate with their level of experience regardless of
which tool they use. Quality has and will always come from the craftsman,
not the tool.

The most important question when considering which tool to use is, "Which
tool makes *me* more productive, and helps *me* to overcome obstacles
hampering *my* creativity?" The only true answer to this question is
experimentation -- trial and error. Work with several different tools --
most vendors offer free trial versions of the software for just this
purpose (* See Ref. 1.) -- and find which one you like the best. (Usability
studies show that the programs that users tend to like more are the ones
that make them more productive, unlike Web sites, by the way. * See Ref. 2.)

I want to be very clear: I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss tools on
this list. What I am saying, however, is that this list should not be the
first line of attack for assessing the quality and usefulness of a
particular tool, which is largely a matter of personal preference and the
particular tasks a you need a tool to be able to perform. Try the tools out
first and form your own opinion of them. If you still have questions after
that, I guarantee you that they will be much more focused and detailed, and
will generate much more interesting discussion on the list than questions
like, "What tool should I be using to build Web pages?"

In search of a kinder and gentler signal-to-noise ratio,
- - Porter

* Ref. 1: Download trial versions of *some* of the many page/site creation
tools that are on the market. (In no particular order.)

NetObjects Fusion
http://www.netobjects.com/products/html/nof.html

Macromedia Dreamweaver
http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/trial/main.cgi

Symantec Visual Page
http://www.symantec.com/trialware/dlvp11.html

Adobe PageMill
http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/pagemill/main.html

Claris Home Page
http://www.claris.com/software/highlights/clarispagetrial.html

SoftQuad HoTMetaL
http://www.softquad.com/products/hotmetal/hm-ftp.htm

GoLive CyberStudio
http://company.golive.com/cgi-bin/liveSQL/PRODUCT/trial.html

Microsoft FrontPage
http://www.microsoft.com/frontpage/
(I would be more specific with this URL, but Microsoft's site
isn't responding at the moment.)

This list could continue on, ad infinitum. As an aside, I don't use any of
these tools. My personal preference is still for a standard text editor.
I'm considering upgrading to something like BBedit with configurable
keystrokes for inserting frequently-used bits of code.

* Ref. 2: "In Search of Web Usability Guidelines:
A Case for Conducting User-Tests"
Keith Instone, Web Review
http://webreview.com/97/07/25/feature/index3.html

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:40:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

being that i was never in the traditional print media, and that the www
was my first medium of use, the pc was what i was trained and baptized on.

i see how the mac treats some things, and i like it, but i go to my pc and
see the sharpness and clarity that photosop and netscpae/ie has and it
bugs me that mcs are blurry (i have looked at many) and the colors always
seem washed on on them...

my boss came from print media like many other www pepl from what it seems,
and he uses the print/mac approach and i respect this, but for me and what
i use for actual www site prodcution on a *daily* basis, using a mac would
drive me nuts. and this is an issue that can be debated for days, and im
aware of that. again, it just comes down to what you know best, and most
importantly, what is actually *produced* ;)

one tip for mac users out there.... ever notice sites designed on a mac
have the default font looking all jacked and ugly on the www? i will try
to find a good example if anyone is interested.. but basically, the font
is ugly and has some characters that show as wingdigns on pc. just thogut
i would mention it.

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Paul Frost wrote:

> Andrea di Varmo <sinetica@mailbox.nauta.it> writes
>
> >I currently use Visual Page 1.1 from Symantec and it's quite good.
> for total site management, hahtsite is unbeatable. a cross between a decent
> wyzzy editor and a ms visual interdev. css, java/script, cgi stuff without
> painful programming, dHTML and ecommerce is a breeze.
>
> enough of the ad though. it is such a shame that
> a) it's only wintel compliant
> b) it's 1.5k pounds (sterling)
>
> this leads me to wonder, however, how many designers are being forced by client
> requirements to use wintel machines? constant switching between an apple and an
> NT box is killing me
>
> "don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
> Paul Frost Web Development
> www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
> paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:03:07 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: TECH: Re: mac/pc software use

At 11:40 AM 1/10/98 -0800, Matt Newell wrote:
[snip]
>one tip for mac users out there.... ever notice sites designed on a mac
>have the default font looking all jacked and ugly on the www? i will try
>to find a good example if anyone is interested.. but basically, the font
>is ugly and has some characters that show as wingdigns on pc. just thogut
>i would mention it.
[snip]

This is also quite true in reverse. It has to do with the fact that, beyond
the standard 256-character ASCII character set, MacOS and Windows use
different character look-up tables. For example, curly quotes and em
dashes, which aren't a part of the standard ASCII set, are represented by
different values in Windows than they are in MacOS. This means that if
someone working on a Mac uses any of these extended characters in the text
of a Web page, someone viewing it in Windows may or may not see the proper
character, and vice versa.

As for the font being ugly, I doubt that any of the sites you're referring
to use any font-embedding technology, so more likely than not, the pages
are rendered in your browser's default font, or another font that you have
on your machine. In short, it has nothing to do with the fact that the site
was built on a Mac.

- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:57:32 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net> writes
>
>being that i was never in the traditional print media, and that the www
>was my first medium of use, the pc was what i was trained and baptized on.
>
>i see how the mac treats some things, and i like it, but i go to my pc and
>see the sharpness and clarity that photosop and netscpae/ie has and it
>bugs me that mcs are blurry (i have looked at many) and the colors always
>seem washed on on them... -- jEsTeR

>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Paul Frost wrote:

>>how many designers are being forced by
>client
>> requirements to use wintel machines? constant switching between an apple and
>an
>> NT box is killing me

yeah i know a lot of (mostly web-only) designers who discuss the validity of
using macs to produce content for a medium which is primarily accessed by pc
users. hence my query. at the end of the day, the mac/pc thing is a personal
taste q. (i prefer the "washed look." but there you have it).

btw, unrelated but equally pressing (i guess): the mac IE4 is very buggy. i
don't know anyone who has installed it without problems (ms up to their old
public guinea pig tricks again). use with caution

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:47:30 -0800
From: Jorge Hurtado <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

Matt Newell wrote:

> i see how the mac treats some things, and i like it, but i go to my pc and
> see the sharpness and clarity that photosop and netscpae/ie has and it
> bugs me that mcs are blurry (i have looked at many) and the colors always
> seem washed on on them...

...humm.. I agree but it also depends on the monitor you have.
I used to complain about it before but now with my viewsonic P815 shows
crisp and clear images just like the ones on the PC's..

greetings..

jorge
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:07:08 -0800
From: "Jim Bass" <jim@bassworks.com>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

Whoever said that using capital letters is optional? Do you really save that
much time being sloppy? The rules of grammar were invented to facilitate
communication. Just because it is email doesn't confer absolution.

Jim Bass

- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
To: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Cc: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

>Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net> writes
>>
>>being that i was never in the traditional print media, and that the www
>>was my first medium of use, the pc was what i was trained and baptized on.
>>
>>i see how the mac treats some things, and i like it, but i go to my pc and
>>see the sharpness and clarity that photosop and netscpae/ie has and it
>>bugs me that mcs are blurry (i have looked at many) and the colors always
>>seem washed on on them... -- jEsTeR
>
>>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Paul Frost wrote:
>
>>>how many designers are being forced by
>>client
>>> requirements to use wintel machines? constant switching between an apple
and
>>an
>>> NT box is killing me
>
>yeah i know a lot of (mostly web-only) designers who discuss the validity
of
>using macs to produce content for a medium which is primarily accessed by
pc
>users. hence my query. at the end of the day, the mac/pc thing is a
personal
>taste q. (i prefer the "washed look." but there you have it).
>
>btw, unrelated but equally pressing (i guess): the mac IE4 is very buggy. i
>don't know anyone who has installed it without problems (ms up to their old
>public guinea pig tricks again). use with caution
>
>
>"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
>Paul Frost Web Development
>www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
>paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
>
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:13:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

i will not be lambasted by your ignorance and stupidity as to denounce
something other than the way you do it. especially when you proclaim such
a thing to a whole list.

we are not english majors here, my grammer is just fine and i fell that my
communication far surpass those of the ordinary individual.

please thing before you post such nonsense.. and any further replies be
made to me personally. you will be charge a .05 cent per word copywriting
fee to read these responses also. operators are standing by.

-- jEsTeR

On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Jim Bass wrote:

> Whoever said that using capital letters is optional? Do you really save that
> much time being sloppy? The rules of grammar were invented to facilitate
> communication. Just because it is email doesn't confer absolution.
>
> Jim Bass
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
> To: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
> Cc: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 2:50 PM
> Subject: Re: mac/pc software use
>
>
> >Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net> writes
> >>
> >>being that i was never in the traditional print media, and that the www
> >>was my first medium of use, the pc was what i was trained and baptized on.
> >>
> >>i see how the mac treats some things, and i like it, but i go to my pc and
> >>see the sharpness and clarity that photosop and netscpae/ie has and it
> >>bugs me that mcs are blurry (i have looked at many) and the colors always
> >>seem washed on on them... -- jEsTeR
> >
> >>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Paul Frost wrote:
> >
> >>>how many designers are being forced by
> >>client
> >>> requirements to use wintel machines? constant switching between an apple
> and
> >>an
> >>> NT box is killing me
> >
> >yeah i know a lot of (mostly web-only) designers who discuss the validity
> of
> >using macs to produce content for a medium which is primarily accessed by
> pc
> >users. hence my query. at the end of the day, the mac/pc thing is a
> personal
> >taste q. (i prefer the "washed look." but there you have it).
> >
> >btw, unrelated but equally pressing (i guess): the mac IE4 is very buggy. i
> >don't know anyone who has installed it without problems (ms up to their old
> >public guinea pig tricks again). use with caution
> >
> >
> >"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
> >Paul Frost Web Development
> >www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
> >paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
> >
> >..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> >..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> >."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:21:01 -0700
From: Nathan Perry <perry@theshop.com>
Subject: Re: mac/pc software use

What retarded nonsense is this? Is this list about how to type email, or
did someone's dog just die? Puleeeeeze!

At 06:07 PM 1/10/98 -0800, Jim Bass wrote:
>Whoever said that using capital letters is optional? Do you really save that
>much time being sloppy? The rules of grammar were invented to facilitate
>communication. Just because it is email doesn't confer absolution.
>
>Jim Bass
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
>To: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
>Cc: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
>Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 2:50 PM
>Subject: Re: mac/pc software use
>
>
>>Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net> writes
>>>
>>>being that i was never in the traditional print media, and that the www
>>>was my first medium of use, the pc was what i was trained and baptized on.
>>>
>>>i see how the mac treats some things, and i like it, but i go to my pc and
>>>see the sharpness and clarity that photosop and netscpae/ie has and it
>>>bugs me that mcs are blurry (i have looked at many) and the colors always
>>>seem washed on on them... -- jEsTeR
>>
>>>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Paul Frost wrote:
>>
>>>>how many designers are being forced by
>>>client
>>>> requirements to use wintel machines? constant switching between an apple
>and
>>>an
>>>> NT box is killing me
>>
>>yeah i know a lot of (mostly web-only) designers who discuss the validity
>of
>>using macs to produce content for a medium which is primarily accessed by
>pc
>>users. hence my query. at the end of the day, the mac/pc thing is a
>personal
>>taste q. (i prefer the "washed look." but there you have it).
>>
>>btw, unrelated but equally pressing (i guess): the mac IE4 is very buggy. i
>>don't know anyone who has installed it without problems (ms up to their old
>>public guinea pig tricks again). use with caution
>>
>>
>>"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
>>Paul Frost Web Development
>>www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
>>paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
>>
>>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
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>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:13:15 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Web Actions by popular request

Hi everyone,

After posting comments regarding Photoshop's actions palette to the list
the other day I received many requests for a copy of the actions I use. I
have made six of these available from Eycon's web site
<http://www.eycon.com.au>.

These six are the basis for the majority of the rest of my actions. I have
around sixty, but most are variations on the six I have made available, or
specific to particular sites or pages.

A warning... There is no documentation or assistance provided with these,
as they are very straight forward. They were created for use in Eycon
Studio and for our current philosophies and environment. They were not
created for public distribution and I have no idea if they will work, or
what they may do else where. I have provided them as response to popular
request, and I hope they inspire people to make greater use of this
wonderful feature of Photoshop, and for Adobe to make it even more powerful
in future releases.

Have fun,
Chris

PS The files are Mac. I don't run Windows for production work so I couldn't
test them there.

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #122
****************************

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