Babble v1 128

babble-digest Tuesday, January 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 128

In this issue:
Pre-caching HTML
Re: TECH: Frames, my Love/Hate Relationship
Re: Pre-caching HTML
Re: Pre-caching HTML
DESIGN: Page Layout
Browser height
Re: Pre-caching HTML
Re: Browser height
Animated Image Replacement
Re: Browser height
TECH: Re: Animated Image Replacement
screen size work arounds...
Re: DESIGN: Page Layout
suggestion for Kevin Travers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 20:45:10 -0700
From: Andy Meng <ameng@datamade.com>
Subject: Pre-caching HTML

Greetings,

One of our clients wants us to construct some mostly text web pages (very
minor amount of small graphics) to be served via 9600 baud connections
(don't ask - this is a done deal). They will be browsing with current
versions of Netscape. We want to speed up the browsing experience by
pre-cacheing HTML pages so that while the user is reading the current
page any pages that are linked from the current page are downloading to
the browser cache in the background and can be displayed very rapidly
when the link is clicked. I found a way to do this with graphics using
javascript but I haven't figured out how to do this with HTML pages.
Anyone know how to do this?

Thanks,

Andy

__________________________________________________________________________
Andy Meng | Data Made Accessible | ameng@datamade.com | www.datamade.com

Learn Anything | www.learning-web.com | Teach Anything

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:36:07 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: TECH: Frames, my Love/Hate Relationship

>[snip]
>>Now another question relating to this. I have noticed that Netscape (NN
>>4 Mac) seems to handle fixed height frame rows rather poorly. The actual
>>height seems to be a random amount (1-10 pixels) less than the height
>>specified. ROWS="80,*" results in a top row of about 65-79 pixels
>>height. Again, IE handles this perfectly. How prevalent is this bug? Any
>>fixes, workarounds?

There is no panacea, but there are certain workarounds that have partial
success - however, it's my experience that you need to address each problem
separately. For example, I think that putting as asterisk after the 80 in
your case will solve the problem on NS4 for PC. Mac I'm not sure of yet. We
did a major workaround for a site, rethinking how the frames could be done,
whether it was essential or not - and yes, introduced the concept of
compromise (something that is far too easy to accept after a while) - it
worked on all, but then NS4 on the Mac produced interesting results - "it's
not a bug, it's a feature" became a very popular phrase about then <g>.

Haven't really helped much I know - but there isn't much that can be done,
unless you produce different versions for different browsers at the outset
(FRAMESET). Hmm, that's an idea.

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
- -----------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:41:30 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: Pre-caching HTML

Andy,

Perhaps using layers would work, if they are using current versions of
Netscape. Just a thought. Failing that, you could always convert those
thousands of pages of text into images :)

At 08:45 PM 1/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>One of our clients wants us to construct some mostly text web pages (very
>minor amount of small graphics) to be served via 9600 baud connections
>(don't ask - this is a done deal). They will be browsing with current
>versions of Netscape. We want to speed up the browsing experience by
>pre-cacheing HTML pages so that while the user is reading the current
>page any pages that are linked from the current page are downloading to
>the browser cache in the background and can be displayed very rapidly
>when the link is clicked. I found a way to do this with graphics using
>javascript but I haven't figured out how to do this with HTML pages.
>Anyone know how to do this?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:51:06 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Pre-caching HTML

At 08:45 PM 1/12/98 -0700, Andy Meng wrote:
[snip]
>versions of Netscape. We want to speed up the browsing experience by
>pre-cacheing HTML pages so that while the user is reading the current
>page any pages that are linked from the current page are downloading to
>the browser cache in the background and can be displayed very rapidly
>when the link is clicked. I found a way to do this with graphics using
>javascript but I haven't figured out how to do this with HTML pages.
>Anyone know how to do this?
[snip]

I've posted a demo of one possible solution using frames at this URL:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/cacheHTML/

The only suck thing that you're going to run into with preloading pages is
that all text links to any pages that you cache will only ever be displayed
with their VLINK color, since the browser will think that you've already
been to the pages.

Hope this Helps. :)
- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:09:26 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: DESIGN: Page Layout

Churning out the posts today. Well, someone has to keep up the high
standard of recent posts.

So, a few thoughts on text layout as it applies to the web.
We all know that text is most legible in columns of 8-12 words per line.
In print media this usually results in 2-3 columns of text per page. I'm
sure we are all familiar with the form. However, as we have found out,
the web has its own typographic impositions, differing from print media.
So, what methods have people seen/used that work for the web?
The most common layout seems to be the single column in a table, with a
scrollbar scrolling down the page. This works, but is it the pinacle of
web text layout? The resultant column is often quite narrow, and
requires a large margin to balance the page.
Curiously, some of the worst I have seen are pages which attempt to
imitate print layout TOO heavily. I have seen pages split into two
columns, but with A4 type proportions, so the viewer had to scroll down
the page, then back up to the top to move onto the second column...far
from ideal! Even worse if horizontal scrolling was needed too, AND then
a button to progress to the next page, layed out the same. Seems a
little stupid to me.
One idea I have, inspired by someones earlier Babble post about old
scrolls, is to have the text divided into columns of an appropriate
width, which run only to the bottom of the browser, and dynamically
resize vertically. The text then runs into the next column to the right,
and so on. All text is displayed on one page, which scrolls
horizontally, but the columns only go to the bottom page, no matter what
size. This imitates the process of reading left to right, in easily
legible columns, something most people are used to, without imposing
artificial print based limits on 'pages' and the like AND it would look
good at all browser sizes. The text is like a scroll, continually
unfolding to the right.
What do fellow Babblers think of this concept? The only problem is
that I can't think of any way to render it with HTML currently. The
table for columns is easy, but there doesn't seem to be a way to
dynamically 'pour' text into the columns. Please prove me wrong!

Hoping for some response
Caleb Fuller
Analog Creations
email@calebfuller.com

To the next post...

FROM:W3bMA5TAR@CYBERPROMO.COM
ALL MY IMAGES HAVE A BLUE BORDER AROUND THEM. ALSO WHERE CAN I GET LOTS
OF ANIMATED GIF CLIPART. IT LOOKS REALLY C00L ON MY FLAMING RED
BACKGROUND.
THANX.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:23:43 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Browser height

All this discussion of browser height and so on at different
resolutions...don't you wish the designers had thought to make the
interface just a BIT less #@&*^%! intrusive. (aahahahaha)
The IBM WebExplorer browser for OS/2 had one (and only one) nice
feature - a full screen option which presented just that - the entire
screen is cleared except for the page itself. With good sites it is
indeed a thing of beauty to see.
So, how many of you are now wishing for a little Javascript to
automatically do that at the start of all your pages. <GLOAT>Just
think...your site, and NOTHING else, displayed onscreen, EVERY pixel
yours to command.</GLOAT> Well, in all seriousness, most games and
multimedia programmers have always had this luxury. But our stuff is
distributed across the 'net, so it has to live in this stupid
<DEROGATORY SARCASM>browser window.</DEROGATORY SARCASM>

Caleb Fuller
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:54:38 -0500
From: Gene Lewis <gene@digitalpulp.com>
Subject: Re: Pre-caching HTML

Andy,

Very interesting problem...and very interesting concept for a future
version of HTML. As you said, there is a way to have the browser
pre-load images for the relating graphics and text to that particular
script, but alas I am not aware of anything that would cause the browser
to grab the contents of a page, process it into cache and perform the
same function again as the user clicks further along his/her route.
Actually, the specifications of the browser will not allow this
functionality to occur within the application. The structure of
Netscape/IE, etc dictates that in order for HTML to be cached, it must
be made available to the browser window. When Java and Javascript cache
they utilize functionality specifically designed for their language
environment. This said, here are a few things to consider:

You could use frames, creating a frameset whose structure contains one
or more 'hidden' (very small) frames with transparented text. You would
have to designate the files related to every single document in the
intranet and write a frameset for each one........Ah ha....I see that
Porter beat me to it (i just looked at my mail). Well, I'll continue
anyway. Designing this way would be effective, but would also be a
logistical nightmare. If the site is small it would be feasible, but it
is not a method that would be kind to the growth of the site.

You might also ask yourself how much time this is going to save you. If
your pages are mostly HTML, download time will be minimal as it is. Do
some testing using a small set of pages on a 9600 baud modem - anyone
with a modem of that speed will most likely be used to long download
times.

nice question

- -G
- --
Gene Lewis.........................Digital Pulp Inc.
gene@digitalpulp.com...............220 East 23rd Street
•vox:: 212.679.0676 x225...........Suite 1007
•fax:: 212.679.0463................New York, N.Y. 10010

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:32:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: Browser height

ie 4 almost has a full page viewing capacity. youre right.. it is kinda
cool on nice sites.

just a lil tip to pile on the ie4 fans stack :)

-- jEsTeR (i used to love ns, but ms made me convert ;)

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Caleb Fuller wrote:

> All this discussion of browser height and so on at different
> resolutions...don't you wish the designers had thought to make the
> interface just a BIT less #@&*^%! intrusive. (aahahahaha)
> The IBM WebExplorer browser for OS/2 had one (and only one) nice
> feature - a full screen option which presented just that - the entire
> screen is cleared except for the page itself. With good sites it is
> indeed a thing of beauty to see.
> So, how many of you are now wishing for a little Javascript to
> automatically do that at the start of all your pages. <GLOAT>Just
> think...your site, and NOTHING else, displayed onscreen, EVERY pixel
> yours to command.</GLOAT> Well, in all seriousness, most games and
> multimedia programmers have always had this luxury. But our stuff is
> distributed across the 'net, so it has to live in this stupid
> <DEROGATORY SARCASM>browser window.</DEROGATORY SARCASM>
>
> Caleb Fuller
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:58:23 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Animated Image Replacement

I know there was a lot of discussion on rollovers a while back, but I don't
have it archived, so my appologies if this has been done...

Has anyone managed to use an animated gif as as the second image in a image
replacement script? I can get a good result from NS4. NS3 displays the
final frame. IE4: W95 displays the final frame; Mac displays the first
frame.

Any ideas? suggestions welcome...

thanks,
Chris

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:12:17 -0000
From: "Howard Shaw" <hjs@hetleys.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Browser height

- -----Original Message-----
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>

> So, how many of you are now wishing for a little Javascript to
>automatically do that at the start of all your pages. <GLOAT>Just
>think...your site, and NOTHING else, displayed onscreen, EVERY pixel
>yours to command.</GLOAT> Well, in all seriousness, most

Try this - works in IE3 & IE4. I'm pretty sure there is a JS version
that will work eith NN.

function showFullscreen() {
var winLab = window.open("../xxx/yyy.htm", "lab", "toolbar=no,
menubar=no, status=no, scrollbar=no, fullscreen=yes");
}

known as stadium mode :)

Howard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:18:29 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: TECH: Re: Animated Image Replacement

At 02:58 PM 1/13/98 +0800, Chris McLay wrote:
[snip]
>Has anyone managed to use an animated gif as as the second image in a image
>replacement script? I can get a good result from NS4. NS3 displays the
>final frame. IE4: W95 displays the final frame; Mac displays the first
>frame.
[snip]

You're right, this was discussed in an earlier post. I can't find the URL,
otherwise I'd point you at a site that does it. (I believe it was Jason
Harris of Meniscus Interactive Design whose site it was.)

Basically, the problem is that if you preload the animation with JS, you
get this problem where the animation runs in the background, and by the
time the rollover happens, it's already on the last frame.

One solution to this problem is to preload the animation on the page sized
to a single pixel, and not do the JS preload at all. This seemed to solve
Jason's problem when he was doing his rollover.

- - Porter "I really should be working on this HTML prototype of an online
store that I have to propose to a potential client tomorrow" Glendinning

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:00:39 -0700
From: Nathan Perry <perry@theshop.com>
Subject: screen size work arounds...

check out http://theshop.com for yet another way to accomodate different
screen sizes, while keeping the original idea together...i don't know, we
used to use a pop-out window...but, too many folks, the same kind that
complain about grammar on these lists (had to get in a jab...it was right
in front of me, and i had to take it...no hard feelings at this point?),
didn't realize that a second window had opened...it's always something, but
that's part of why we love this medium...nothing's ever perfect.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:04:56 +1100
From: Jesse Sweeney <jsweeney@mail.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: DESIGN: Page Layout

Caleb Fuller wrote:

> One idea I have, inspired by someones earlier Babble post about old
> scrolls, is to have the text divided into columns of an appropriate
> width, which run only to the bottom of the browser, and dynamically
> resize vertically. The text then runs into the next column to the right,
> and so on. All text is displayed on one page, which scrolls
> horizontally, but the columns only go to the bottom page, no matter what
> size. This imitates the process of reading left to right, in easily
> legible columns, something most people are used to, without imposing
> artificial print based limits on 'pages' and the like AND it would look
> good at all browser sizes. The text is like a scroll, continually
> unfolding to the right.
> What do fellow Babblers think of this concept? The only problem is
> that I can't think of any way to render it with HTML currently. The
> table for columns is easy, but there doesn't seem to be a way to
> dynamically 'pour' text into the columns. Please prove me wrong!

Caleb,

this doesn't do *exactly* what you're looking for, but check out:

http://search.netscape.com/comprod/products/navigator/version_3.0/layout/columns_spacing/index.html

unfortunately it only works in netscape 3.0 or 4.0, but it does
degrade very nicely.

cheers, jesse

*
Jesse Sweeney
ICQ UIN: 1802389
jsweeney@mail.usyd.edu.au
http://www-personal.usyd.edu.au/~jsweeney
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:21:36 -0700
From: Nathan Perry <perry@theshop.com>
Subject: suggestion for Kevin Travers

<quote>
The most important thing is the feedback from our subscribers. this is
YOUR list, your site, your resource. It is why the H5 exists, so please
tell us about your favorite sites, features that you want to see,
interviews with designers that you know are great, articles on specifc
issues, etc. We can't get enough of these type of requests.
</quote>

Have you ever thought of getting different agencies, that people on the
babble list work for, and having them design a part of High 5? Maybe a
different firm every two weeks, or month, or whatever works...creates the
same section as the last firm...although that might really suck for someone
at the bottom of the list to have to create something original after
everyone else has had a turn...i don't know...might be fun...
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------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #128
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