Babble v1 134

babble-digest Wednesday, January 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 134

In this issue:
Flash plug-in check
Re: what direction?
Re: Flash plug-in check
Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
RE What Direction?
Re: what direction
Re: RE What Direction?
re: What direction
Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
a weird one...
Re: what direction
edge alignment in Netscape (how to workaround no border=0)?
Re: What direction
Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
re: What direction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:08:32 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: Flash plug-in check

I'm looking for a good source for a javascript that checks for the Flash
plug-in and then directs the user to the appropriate html file. A link
to a page that accomplishes this is all I really need. Please tell if
you have one for me. Thanks in advance.

Erik
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 18:25:08 -0500
From: Wendy Clark <clark@portland.com>
Subject: Re: what direction?

>You will never be satisfied because
>someone out there will write you an email saying "I keep getting errors
>on your page. I'm using Netscape 2 on a Sun with a monochrome screen."

Lance, this was the best laugh of my day (although I'll bet you were
quite somber while writing it).

Your "long post" was the most entertaining and tied with Matt's for most
"thought-provoking."

Thanks.

___________________________
Wendy Clark
New Media Development Group
http://www.nmdg.com
clark@portland.com

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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:12:40 -0500
From: Matthew Snow <snow@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Flash plug-in check

hi erik-
take a look at a site I did -
<http://www.wcyy.com>
the second page will detect for a flash plug-in and substitute a gif if
there is no plug-in available.

matt

snow design
portland, maine.
207.774.5452
snow@maine.rr.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:23:29 +0000
From: "Christian Kirschniak" <ck@dsein.com>
Subject: Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers

I think Liams numbers are more realistic. The 63% of IE users are all people
who bought W95 without uninstalling the browser. (I have both IE and NS but
I use only NS)

Stand by Netscape, there is really no reason to leave this field of business
to BG, too.
Netscape is my standart and I hope that the company puts more efforts in the
next version!!!

Christian Kirschniak
___________________________________________________
E-Mail: <ck@dsein.com> WWW: <http://www.dsein.com>
Private: <carpenoctem@geocities.com> WWW:
<http://www.dsein.com/carpenoctem>
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- ----------
>From: Liam Casey <zeppo@bigfoot.com>
>To: babble@highfive.com
>Subject: Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers
>Date: Mit, 14. Jan 1998 19:05 Uhr
>

>Funny, I just heard yesterday on the PBS News Hour (formerly
>McNeil/Lehrer) that only 39% of surfers use IE, while 58% use Netscape.
>Such a conflict of results has me wondering...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:31:35 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: RE What Direction?

More excellent philosophic musings from Lance Arthur:

>The Web is headed for the toilet. The Web as it is today will look like
>tomorrow's Web, but it will rely less on "standards" because Netscape
>will be sold to 3Com, all browsers will be free, competition will spur
>continued multimedia advances (because the public understands TV and
>putting in URLs is awkward and difficult) and the Web will become the
>fifth network, competing for screen time with NBC, ABC et al.

I would tend to disagree with this. Yes, browsers will be free. Yes,
standards (the original vision of the web) seem to have flown out the
window, and don't seem likely to return until/unless one browser
dominates. Yes, competition will spur advances...however, I don't see it
moving as fast as people thought even a year ago. Dial-up connections
still dominate, and 56K is only just becoming popular, limited by lack
of standards. There is only so far the old telegraph wire can be pushed.
Until some form of high speed cable becomes standard (not just popular,
but a dominant standard) things like streaming video and true multimedia
"will remain but a dream, a fleeting illusion, to be pursued, but never
attained". (10 bonus points if you know who I am quoting here.) I don't
see the web becoming some sort of extra channel competing with
television. Why does everyone seem to want to compare the web to TV?
This is the most abhorent thing I can imagine. I see the web as
primarily an information resource, with great entertainment potential,
but entertainment in the way reading a good book (fiction or
non-fiction) is entertaining. I don't want to see the web become
something people just tune out to, watching whatever is on their URL of
choice. "gimme the remote, I wanna change the URL...this site
sucks...hey...I just wanna look at a different site while the ads
load...I'll change back when they finish, promise..." The better analogy
is the giant bookstore, where people can find information on whatever
they want. The successful sites will be the ones that provide
comprehensive and entertaining information on the subject of choice. As
an example of this, check out www.bobmarley.com. Now imagine if every
topic you could ever want information on had a site like this...or
several sites. Successful commercial sites will be the ones that provide
comprehensive product information and support, and allow online
ordering. Places like musicblvd.com and other CD stores have set the
standard here. Also Amazon.com. Yes, there is room for 'fiction' and
'non-fiction' sites, to use a book metaphor. Some will be oriented to
entertainment, some to information, some to commercial sales...most
sites will be some mix of these three. But TV - no this is not what we
should be holding up as a holy grail.

>HTML will
>give way to XML, plug-ins will give way to Java/ActiveX applets, someone
>smart will invent "the third browser" that reads all HTML/XML no matter
>if it is standardized by the W3C or invented by Netscape or Microsoft

Bring on the third browser. They could hardly do a worse job.

>You will have to develop programming skills, but not become a
>programmer. You will need to make pages "active", meaning interactive,
>not any reference to a Microsoft marketing blitz. Interactivity means
>the page reacts to viewer input. It doesn't just sit there. That's what
>print is for. We aren't competing with print. Print is still the only
>easily transporatable, cheap and widely available method of distributing
>information.

Yes, but if the web becomes pervasive enough to compete with TV, it will
also be pervasive enough to compete with print. If bandwidth is
sufficient to transmit full motion video, it is fast enough to provide
instant access to other pages.
I suppose, really, the internet is big enough for all of this. There
can be more than one 'type' of site. Just because some areas become
devoted to video style programming, it doesn't mean others can't be
oriented towards information, e-commerce, entertainment, whatever. There
is even room for distribution of purely 'structured' information,
available to all. The great thing about the internet is that it has
infinite potential, unlike a TV dial.

>The challenge is to find the new paradigm
>that seems "natural". Turning a page, changing a channel, pushing a
>button are all integrated into our psyche.

I asked one of my friends what he wanted from the web, and from
computers in general. His reply was that he wanted them to work like the
systems in Star Trek (TNG obviously). Everything is always available.
Something to think about.

>The clients want to use
>FrontPage because after I'm gone they believe they will be able to
>easily manipulate and update my designs. They are wrong, of course...

Hahaha. I gave a proposal to a company to redesign their rather first
generation site. They turned me down. Last I hear, they are trying to
redo it inhouse using Internet Assistant for MS Word...

>Sorry about the long post,

Why. I'm into this list for 'advanced discussion'. I expect long,
indepth posts to be a part of this.

Caleb Fuller
Analog Creations
email@calebfuller.com
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:22:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: what direction

i shouldn't. i really shouldn't.
but somebody's gotta do it.

>From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my
>I share Lance's view that Netscape will become but a memory in the future -
>and almost look forward to Microsoft taking over. ...
>I look forward to ANY company having a complete monopoly.

you can't be serious.

>if all monitors were the same
>size/resolution we would be happy.

really? does that mean they're all 21"? poor and middle class
people will no longer have a computer.
does that mean they're all 13"? designers would be unable to work.

>If all computers were PCs running compatible software we would be happy, no?

sgi users wouldn't be. mac users wouldn't be (i'm assuming you mean
"windows pc" rather than "personal computer." not always a safe assumption,
but safe enough given the context of your argument).

nor unix users, linux users, os/2 users, beos users, users of upcoming
rhapsody, users of interfaces we haven't dreamed of yet ... none of these
would be happy. nor would you.

in a monopoly situation a company imposes any price it sees fit,
upgrades slowly (or forces unneeded upgrades on a captive audience), adds
or removes features and functions with no regard for the market (since it
*owns* the market), etc.

what is the history of monopoly?

in west virginia in the 30s through the 60s, "the company" in each
small town enjoyed a monopoly position. as a coal miner, you worked in the
mines for the company, bought your goods at the company store, lived in
substandard housing owned by the company, and there went your pay check.
health benefits? whatever the company decided to offer. not happy? too bad.
you were too poor to get an education and get out. you worked for the
company or you died. in fact, you worked for the company *and* you died.
(black lung? the company doctor would be sure to write "heart attack" on
your death certificate). widow's pension? whatever the company offered.
unrelated to your post? no. completely related. it's a single,
simple example of the historical nature of monopoly.

when one company owns the means of production and competition is
eliminated, you no longer have invention, incentive, or growth. your
position in society is fixed, from birth 'til death. it is the death of
both capitalism and democracy.

i think maybe you want to rethink this point of view.

a fish, a barrel, and a smoking gun.

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

furbo filters for graphic and web designers:
http://www.furbo-filters.com

a list apart (one daily digest for people who make websites):
http://www.zeldman.com/advanced/

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:25:32 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: RE What Direction?

At 11:31 AM 1/15/98 +1000, Caleb Fuller wrote:
[snip]
>"will remain but a dream, a fleeting illusion, to be pursued, but never
>attained". (10 bonus points if you know who I am quoting here.)
[snip]

Depends who you are thinking of. Bob Marley sang it, but it was originally
part of a speech by Haile Selassie to the United Nations in 1963. Here's a
really big picture of His Imperial Majesty, if you have time to kill:
http://www.in.tu-clausthal.de/~wallner/marley/pics/him/him.jpg

And they say search engines are useless...

- - Porter "10 bonus points richer" Glendinning

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:47:24 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: re: What direction

>if you've seen Lawnmower Man
>or Johnny Mnemonic you've gained an insight to the future that many of the
>cyberpunk genre think awaits us - and I for one want that world

You want a world full of REALLY BAD movie cliches? :)

>I share Lance's view that Netscape will become but a memory in the future -
>and almost look forward to Microsoft taking over. Why? Well, let me clarify
>it quickly before I'm slammed. I look forward to ANY company having a
>complete monopoly.

Once a company has a monopoly, they no longer need to worry about improving
products. They then resort to mediocre products using poor technologies
only to continually outdate their own product forcing unecessary upgrades
on the consumer.

>Monopoly's stifle creativity and
>entrepreneurship - but the alternative is competing companies attempting to
>outdo each other with gimmicks that almost by circumstance can not be
>standardised before their release, lest they lose the edge.

Give me creativity over standards. I can deal with the minor differences in
browsers. I can't deal with a company telling me what i can and can't
do/use.

>Each to his/her
>own, but I now feel comfortable that the web (though perhaps not quite as
>we know it) is here to stay.

Most definately...at it has a long way to go, too...

- -Darrel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:58:21 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers

What is that expression? There are lies, lies, and damn statistics. Each
company has its own adherants and the ability to twist the truth (we all
do know how both companies computer page views, huh). Today, I just read
that Netscape has 62% of the market. So go figure...

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:42:21 -0700
From: Nathan Perry <perry@theshop.com>
Subject: a weird one...

what's the easiest way, in Flash, to make that pill shape that's all over
the Macromedia site? I can do it in PS4, just not in Freehand or Flash
without making two circles of equal size and running a rectangle between them.

Is there a plug-in for Photoshop 4 to handle animated gifs, rather than
crushing them? pardon my ignorance if there is already a well known fix,
seems like i saw one somewhere...

Who Makes a kick-ass 17" monitor? My Nokia, I'm afraid, is on its last
legs. .25-.26 dot pitch, big viewable area - 15.9", decent price?

What art pads are good? everyone i know that uses one really likes it but,
which one is the best?

Splitting up graphics and putting them back together in tables? Only
checking in Netscape 4 or IE 3 or 4? Netscape 2 + 3 have a strange color
thing that really highlights otherwise very subtle color differences...like
if you indexed the image after it was split.

will someone please tell all of the other people that when you resize an
8-bit graphic, it gets chunky around the edges?

thanks for letting me get a word in edge wise...

np
the shop interactive
http://theshop.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:47:43 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: what direction

Jeffrey Zeldman wrote:
> i shouldn't. i really shouldn't.
> but somebody's gotta do it.

Ah, Jeffrey raises his head :)

>>I share Lance's view that Netscape will become but a memory in the future -
>>and almost look forward to Microsoft taking over. ...
>>I look forward to ANY company having a complete monopoly.
>
> you can't be serious.

Well, probably not, no <snigger> - though for me to say that it was said
with tongue firmly in cheek would be fibbing a little. Sometimes to
initiate conversation, it is a good idea to adopt the role of devil's
advocate for a while. However, I think that you kinda missed the point a
little.

>>if all monitors were the same
>>size/resolution we would be happy.
>
> really? does that mean they're all 21"? poor and middle class
>people will no longer have a computer.
> does that mean they're all 13"? designers would be unable to work.

>>If all computers were PCs running compatible software we would be happy, no?
>
> sgi users wouldn't be. mac users wouldn't be (i'm assuming you mean
>"windows pc" rather than "personal computer." not always a safe assumption,
>but safe enough given the context of your argument).
>
> nor unix users, linux users, os/2 users, beos users, users of upcoming
>rhapsody, users of interfaces we haven't dreamed of yet ... none of these
>would be happy. nor would you.

No Jeffrey, I was not stating that THEY would be happy, and wasn't
referring to a situation in which all the computers would be Wintel
machines (and thanks for pointing out the windows pc thing, since I did
point it out in your email once ;) - No, I was referring to a scenario, in
which if, IF .. there were these standards (and I suppose if it is an IF we
can kinda assume that they are whatever size monitors we would like) then I
don't think we would be complaining about tag incompatibility and catering
for the LCD, or dealing with bosses who want it to look good on their
monitor without caring about the majority of visitors they will attract.
Perhaps I was not clear enough, but the intention was to drive home (via
repetition) that those designing & publishing for the web would like a
standard.

> in a monopoly situation a company imposes any price it sees fit,
>upgrades slowly (or forces unneeded upgrades on a captive audience), adds
>or removes features and functions with no regard for the market (since it
>*owns* the market), etc.
>
> what is the history of monopoly?

Well, as a graduate of the London School of Economics, I suppose I could
answer that one - but it would be rather tedious. Yes, I am aware of the
stifling effects, however as with VRML - a time of consolidation was
required, since things were getting a little out of control, this is so
with the Web I feel. As more and more tags, languages, plug-ins are
introduced, it is becoming just a little messy.

> i think maybe you want to rethink this point of view.

Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum ("I think that I think, therefore I think
that I am.")

>furbo filters for graphic and web designers:
> http://www.furbo-filters.com

Now here's a perfect example, if we didn't have the problems with colour
for Mac and PC - would we need furbo-filters?

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:20:13 PST
From: "First Name Last Name" <no_neck_joe@hotmail.com>
Subject: edge alignment in Netscape (how to workaround no border=0)?

Cheers to all,
I know there are hacks around for getting good alignment of edges
on pages viewed in netscape. I haven't encountered the problem in a
while and have forgotten the best ways to deal with it. I am trying to
get a colored table to butt up against one side of a page which is
within a frames based site. I'd throw the colored cells into the
background image but I have nav bars hanging off the colored cell and I
think image alignment with the background is even harder to do than the
edge. Isn't it a bummer that netscape never adopted the border=0
arguement?

Thanks,
Matt
no_neck_joe@hotmail.com

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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:34:12 -0800
From: Jorge Hurtado <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: What direction

Darrel Austin wrote:

>
>
> Once a company has a monopoly, they no longer need to worry about
> improving
> products. They then resort to mediocre products using poor
> technologies
> only to continually outdate their own product forcing unecessary
> upgrades
> on the consumer.
>

I'm afraid is already the case... B Gates controls most of the market
and they keep feeding us with faulty software with the intention of
forcing the genral public to keep buying, buying, buying and upgrading!
Thank God we still have some alternatives barely surviving.. but for how
long?

I picture the near future like this:
1 Bank, 1 Medical insurance, 1 language that keeps changing, 1 political
party [already the case], 1 world market, 1 world economy, 1 type of
computer, 1 unchangeable set of ideas, etc.

pretty good huh?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:40:32 -0800
From: Jorge Hurtado <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: Explorer takes 63% of Web surfers

It's 1984 all over again!
remember Winston Smith's job? I don't believe everything they show on
the news because they are all in the business of manipulating the
truth.. I'm sick of it.
Tari Akpodiete wrote:

> What is that expression? There are lies, lies, and damn statistics.
> Each
> company has its own adherants and the ability to twist the truth (we
> all
> do know how both companies computer page views, huh). Today, I just
> read
> that Netscape has 62% of the market. So go figure...
>
> --
> ...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
> ...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
> ...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
> ...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
> ...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to
> majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:32:33 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: re: What direction

Hi Darrel,

I agree with you - partially <g>. Yes, it has been the practise that
monopoly's have not served as great inspiration; and examples abound about
companies/industres (especially telcos) that having been either privatised
or suddenly faced with competition have reduced costs, become innovative
etc.. However, I wouldn't say that they no longer need to worry about
improving products, the gap will always exist (Netscape was pretty much a
monopoly just a little while back and was still innovative - afterall, they
did introduce the <blink> tag. ;)

Also, I was under the impression that people wanted the W3C to introduce
standards.

>Give me creativity over standards. I can deal with the minor differences in
>browsers. I can't deal with a company telling me what i can and can't
>do/use.

Yes, but to what extent Darrel? We can deal with the minor differences
because most of us only cater for the two leading browsers (let's be
honest, how many of us religiously cater for Lynx et al). In the future, if
there were to be, say five competing browsers, with 20% market share each,
each distinguishable by different features and different tags (and not just
the marginheight, marginwidth, topmargin, leftmargin jokes) then it will
become quite messy.

>Most definately...at it has a long way to go, too...
>
>-Darrel

Isn't that the truth..

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #134
****************************

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