Babble v1 140

Babble-digest Friday, January 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 140

In this issue:
just a sec, Caleb...
redirector
new browser
Re: IE 3 error
Re: just a sec, Caleb...
[babble] JS_forms
Re: new browser
flexible vertical spacing
Re: TECH: random images with JS
web literacy
Creativity
DESIGN/TECH: flexible vertical spacing
Re: flexible vertical spacing
re:linking to databases
Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information
OK, Designing for Screen Size...what next ?
Creativity through Brainstorming, and Revamp of Status Bar

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:26:16 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: just a sec, Caleb...

Someone wrote:

>i was visiting a webcafe a few days ago (a good way to view work on different
>machines/setups: and better coffee than the office slop), and two kids were
>sitting next to me, surfing the nba website.

>they knew what they were trying to get, and seemed one step ahead of the
>navigation system, positioning the cursor over menus before they'd arrived,
>speed reading pages/using edit/find. basically, a lot more sophisticated than
>the designers of the site in question.

And Caleb replied:

"Interesting. Knowing that such users exist restores my faith in the
ability of people to actually USE computers..."

To which I say:

"Ah Caleb, the keyword in this person's post was KIDS!!!
In other words, don't get your hopes up. The rest of those
users are still out there without a clue... heh heh"

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 05:19:49 -0500
From: "Capone's Hits" <capone@glen-net.ca>
Subject: redirector

Recently I saw a redirection site that allowed you to incorperate your name
into the URL. Was something like www.mysite.capone.com would be your URL. I
cant seem to find it now though or remember where I found it. Does anyone
know the address I am looking for?

Ken
- -----------Web Sites by Capone---------------
Ken Patenaude mailto:capone@glen-net.ca
http://geocities.datacellar.net/~punchinanose/sites.html
- -------------------------------------------------
Consulting, Designing, Marketing, Partnering

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:40:45 +0100
From: Pascale Camus-Walter <camwal@cybercable.tm.fr>
Subject: new browser

A bad new for all people that prepared themself to confortably design for a
single common platform: a new browser is born, Opera,from Norway.

I couldn't test it because it does not exist for macplatform at the
moment, but as far as I know, a lot of people have already downloaded the
beast.
Read the press release in wired:

http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/9474.html

See the site:

http://www.operasoftware.com

Il est plus facile de rayer l'obscurité que la lumière. R. Juarroz
+---------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
artKfee: http://www.cybercable.fr/~camwal/
The Waltercolour studio: http://geocities.datacellar.net/SoHo/Gallery/5806/
apastras: http://web.superb.net/apastras
+------------------------------------+----------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:44:58 -0800
From: "Michael Liu" <mliu@compellingimages.com>
Subject: Re: IE 3 error

Hello Jason,

Since I posted the earlier comment to the list, I am CC'ing this one to the
list as well as a follow-up.

> As far as your Jscript runtime error; I think it is due to no
> support by IE3 of the document.images function (commonly used
> in mouse rollover scripts).

Yup. That's exactly what the problem is. I sure wish MS would release a
fix to IE3 to correct this problem!

> I've built in a checker function that should prevent the error message.
> Since IE4 overwrites IE3 while installing I cannot check this myself,
> could you visit the site again
> http://www.meniscusdesign.com/test/randomimage.html
> and let me know if it works?

Been there, done that! :)

I checked it again with IE3 and it works like a charm--no more error
message. Of course, the images aren't preloaded, but the random image on
load/refresh works great.

I also checked it with NN3 and no problems there either. And with NN3, it
does preload the images.

> Could you also let me know if this problem
> was on a Windows machine or on a Mac?

Win95.

> Thank you!

No problem!

- - Michael Liu
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:59:53 +0100
From: cvodb <vonb@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: just a sec, Caleb...

>>"Interesting. Knowing that such users exist restores my faith in the
>>ability of people to actually USE computers..."

>To which I say:

>"Ah Caleb, the keyword in this person's post was KIDS!!!
>In other words, don't get your hopes up. The rest of those
>users are still out there without a clue... heh heh"

Definitely. We set up a net-cafe at last year's 'Racism Beat It' festival
and we had to practically help the adults find the mouse, whereas anyone
under 16 needed no instructions. They knew how to handle those computers &
web pages (and how to crash them on purpose, the little bastards ;-)

Caroline

cvodb@pair.com

http://vonb.pair.com/

http://www.gavinfriday.com/
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:35:56 -0500
From: "jannes" <binzip@francomm.com>
Subject: [babble] JS_forms

Hi folks,
I've got a problem here with a simple JS form-manipulating script, IE4 seems
to render <form... onSubmit="return function()"> fine, but NS4 and 3 don't
like it, telling me function is not defined. also, NS4 and 3 yell at me for
the beginning <!-- tag in the script. Can someone help me with this? Thanks.

binzip@francomm.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:50:15 -0500
From: Dreadscott Internet Productions <java@dreadscott.com>
Subject: Re: new browser

At 11:40 AM 1/16/98 +0100, Pascale Camus-Walter wrote:
>A bad new for all people that prepared themself to confortably design for a
>single common platform: a new browser is born, Opera,from Norway.

Hmmm... but it has absoluely no java support! OK, I'm biased: I do mucho
java programming for web content. We can argue wether or not java adds
anything signif or unique to the navigation and esthetic experience of a
site... let's not for now.
Instead, I suggest it won't take off in larger companies whose internal
intranets are based on Oracle, SAP and others which run in-house business
apps via java in a browser window. And I suspect, alas, that without
corporate marketshare, Opera won't ever rise to compete with NS and MSIE.
And then, there are also the increasing number of home users who've
become addicted to multi-user java game sites :-)

Lisa G.

- -,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-
Dreadscott Internet Productions
Lisa Gade
java@dreadscott.com
http://www.dreadscott.com
- -,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth."-Picasso

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:06:06 -0500
From: "Joe Calleja" <joe@torweb.com>
Subject: flexible vertical spacing

<G> with all the high-end JavaScripting messages flying all over the place,
I'm *almost* embarrassed to ask a lowly, old-fashioned HTML-type question:

Is there such a thing as flexible vertical spacing? ie: basically, I have
three images aligned vertically in a window which fits nicely on the LCD
640 x 480. When the window is viewed on a larger monitor, I'd like them
spaced relative to eachother, or at least centered vertically, much like
how a horizontally aligned table defined as "width=90%" works. I've been
unable to find much information on a "height" tag for use in table
definitions, and if you think about it it doesn't make much sense in
everyday use anyway. But it does for this page I'm developing.

I have a feeling the answer will be short (like: "no"). Any ideas will be
most appreciated.

+++
Joe Calleja | Creative Director | Toronto Web Services
416.955.1779 | joe@torweb.com
visit us at http://www.torweb.com (soon to be relaunched, inspired by [but
not stolen from ;)] all the terrific work done by people on this list)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:17:53 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: TECH: random images with JS

Regarding Jason's kick-ass photos and image randomizer at:
http://www.meniscusdesign.com/test/randomimage.html

Jason, et al,

One thing you may want to consider with such randomizers is that if users
have a browser that doesn't support JS, or have JS turned off -- thanks to
much yellow journalism about the evil Web hackers being able to steal your
underpants if you leave JS turned on... but I rant -- the page will render
with no image at all.

You can solve the problem something like this:

<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">

</SCRIPT>

*DISCLAIMER* I have not debugged or tested this particular code, but I have
used the method before.

What this does is print the random image and comment out the static one if
the user's browser executes the JS. If it doesn't the user still gets the
static image.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:37:06 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: web literacy

In message <199801161101.MAA19789@smtp1.xs4all.nl>, cvodb
<vonb@xs4all.nl> writes
>>>"Interesting. Knowing that such users exist restores my faith in the
>>>ability of people to actually USE computers..."
>
>>To which I say:
>
>>"Ah Caleb, the keyword in this person's post was KIDS!!!
>>In other words, don't get your hopes up. The rest of those
>>users are still out there without a clue... heh heh"
>
which was the point of my initial posting. the adults in the very same
web cafe were there primarily because it was cool, or whatever. very few
computer skills, yet alone web skills.

our target audiences may not be the fluent users we dream of yet, but i
think that wise designers will already be thinking about "in 5 years
time" (insert time length as appropriate).

i guess this ties in will previous posts concerning the issue of where
we see the web going. and i guess my conclusion here is that we shape
our work according to user requirements (at least, we should), and so as
users become more advanced, so will we.

and no, i don't buy the idea that we are agenda setters. maybe in our
spare time (with our spare time websites). from my experience, most of
my work is centred around jumping through corporate hoops. though maybe
my bleakly practical stance on this one comes from a belief in the fact
that creators don't have much control over creativity. good ideas don't
come from brainstorming sessions, they come out of thin air and when you
least expect them. good ideas are not on tap.

<echo>
>Definitely. We set up a net-cafe at last year's 'Racism Beat It' festival
>and we had to practically help the adults find the mouse, whereas anyone
>under 16 needed no instructions. They knew how to handle those computers &
>web pages (and how to crash them on purpose, the little bastards ;-)
>
</echo>

put that in your pipe and somke it tonite

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK

postscript: in response all queries/comments related to this sig: it's a lyric
from a pixies song, which is in turn a reference to a short film by dali
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:15:32 -0800
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Creativity

Here, here. What a direct, to-the-point, eloquent way to see it.

When I'm asked, "How long does it take to build this page?" (by people in
my organization!) I want to scream - I understand why we must attach
timeframes, but this is the fact of the matter (quoted):

though maybe
my bleakly practical stance on this one comes from a belief in the fact
that creators don't have much control over creativity. good ideas don't
come from brainstorming sessions, they come out of thin air and when you
least expect them. good ideas are not on tap.

... Bravo.

Ryan Ferguson
www.webworkx.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:08:45 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: DESIGN/TECH: flexible vertical spacing

At 11:06 AM 1/16/98 -0500, Joe Calleja wrote:
><G> with all the high-end JavaScripting messages flying all over the place,
>I'm *almost* embarrassed to ask a lowly, old-fashioned HTML-type question:

There is no such thing. If something is keeping you from realizing your
design it's an obstacle to be overcome -- be it a hundred-lind JavaScript
function that you can't figure out, or having an HTML tag in the wrong
place. That's the beauty of this list: it combines the creativity and
expertise of many people into a massive problem-solving monster. Or a bunch
of third-graders arguing over grammar, whichever we feel like being that
day. But I digress . . .

>Is there such a thing as flexible vertical spacing? ie: basically, I have
>three images aligned vertically in a window which fits nicely on the LCD
>640 x 480. When the window is viewed on a larger monitor, I'd like them
>spaced relative to eachother, or at least centered vertically, much like
>how a horizontally aligned table defined as "width=90%" works. I've been
>unable to find much information on a "height" tag for use in table
>definitions, and if you think about it it doesn't make much sense in
>everyday use anyway. But it does for this page I'm developing.
>
>I have a feeling the answer will be short (like: "no"). Any ideas will be
>most appreciated.

Yes there is a way to do it, and to the best of my knowledge it's supported
back as far as both 3.0 browsers, at least. You can specify WIDTH="100%"
HEIGHT="100%" in a TABLE tag and it will expand to fill the window. You can
then use the ALIGN and VALIGN tags to center whatever you want in the
middle of this large table cell.

I have a JS utility that I use -- others on the list may be interested in
it aside from this vertical spacing issue -- that shows an example of this.
Check out:
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/paletteTest.html

You can input four hex color codes into the form at the bottom, and the JS
will create a swatch plate that lets you see the colors together on a black
and a white background. I use the table HEIGHT and WIDTH tags to center the
swatches in their sections of the window.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:16:27 -0800
From: Luis Cota <softech@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: flexible vertical spacing

Joe Calleja wrote:
>
> <G> with all the high-end JavaScripting messages flying all over the place,
> I'm *almost* embarrassed to ask a lowly, old-fashioned HTML-type question:
>
> Is there such a thing as flexible vertical spacing? ie: basically, I have
> three images aligned vertically in a window which fits nicely on the LCD
> 640 x 480. When the window is viewed on a larger monitor, I'd like them
> spaced relative to eachother, or at least centered vertically, much like
> how a horizontally aligned table defined as "width=90%" works. I've been
> unable to find much information on a "height" tag for use in table
> definitions, and if you think about it it doesn't make much sense in
> everyday use anyway. But it does for this page I'm developing.
>
> I have a feeling the answer will be short (like: "no"). Any ideas will be
> most appreciated.
>
> +++
> Joe Calleja | Creative Director | Toronto Web Services
> 416.955.1779 | joe@torweb.com
> visit us at http://www.torweb.com (soon to be relaunched, inspired by [but
> not stolen from ;)] all the terrific work done by people on this list)

there is no tag for the <table blah blah> but you can insert a height
tag for the cells. that may be of use, i do it all the time. im not sure
which browser that will work for, take a look, but it does exist

luis cota
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:55:32 PST
From: "Terrance Brandon" <terrance_brandon@hotmail.com>
Subject: re:linking to databases

What kind of database is it and what kind of platform (Unix, Win/win95,
Windows NT, Mac ) is the site hosted on ? Databases are not one size
fits all. Dependeing on the server or ISP hosting the site, they may
have exactly what you need. Once I know some specifics, I'll do my best
to help you out. Please cc any reply to me as I only get the digest and
don't read it daily.
Terrance Brandon, Webmaster & Internet Consultant
http://www.adgrafix.com/info/tbrandon
http://members.aol.com/tbrandon/business.htm
terrance_brandon@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:55:18 +0200
From: Armand Niculescu <armand@starnets.ro>
Subject: Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information

>
> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:08:41 +1000
> From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
> Subject: Interface design for advanced vs ignorant users
>
> >i was visiting a webcafe a few days ago (a good way to view work on different
> >machines/setups: and better coffee than the office slop), and two kids were
> >sitting next to me, surfing the nba website.
>
> >they knew what they were trying to get, and seemed one step ahead of the
> >navigation system, positioning the cursor over menus before they'd arrived,
> >speed reading pages/using edit/find. basically, a lot more sophisticated than
> >the designers of the site in question.
>
> Interesting. Knowing that such users exist restores my faith in the
> ability of people to actually USE computers. Having worked on tech
> support gives a very different picture of the average computer
> user...

Paul is right. I've watched kids in a local Internet Café and I also
saw my girlfriend trying to get some info out of the web for the first
time. Young people learn very fast. I don't have a strong background in
teaching, but I had the chance to do it and I found that as people are
younger, they learn faster and it's easier for them to accommodate to
a new medium. As they grow older it's harder for them to learn
something they aren't used to. Teaching almost anything computer-
related to a teenager is a charm. Trying to do the same thing on
a 40 year old person is a nightmare.

But I also found another interesting thing: Most young people are
looking primarily for *information* on the web. I never saw anyone
visiting a site just because it looks cool. I mean, design is not
as important for them as the information contained in the site.
If they can find what they want, they'll love the site. If not,
they'll leave. Maybe this is just a local aspect, since here we
have to pay for the time online and one prefers to actually get
something useful, not just to stare at pretty stuff.

I'm a bit puzzled. We want our sites to look as good as possible.
We want streaming video and sound, interactivity and so on,
"pages that don't just sit there". But what do *visitors* want?
Is there a study somewhere, based on age and other factors?
Should we pursue bleeding-edge technologies or just present the
information in an elegant and efficient way?
Should we try to please the client who pays the bill or the guy
or gal who visits the site?

Answers, anyone?

<disclaimer>
I only have one year of experience in this area and I'm young
enough to admit that I may say stupid things sometimes.
Please accept my apologies if necessary.
</disclaimer>

Armand.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 05:18:58 +1100
From: Richard McLean <vorple@n130.aone.net.au>
Subject: OK, Designing for Screen Size...what next ?

OK. So I've decided to decide for screen size.

Not so much for larger screens, for that centered tables seem good enough
for me at this stage. But with people talking about 500 pixels screen res
in older Macs & Powerbooks, I was wondering if there is an easy way to do
it.

One thing that would seem necessary to me in this situation is the scaling
of page elements. It's fine to have variable table widths, but what about
being able to scale the elements too. Is there an easier way than using
scripting todetect the screen res & subsitute the smaller GIF, JPEG or
whatever. Or using two versions of the site.

Each seems to have their problems, is there a way that is problem free
(yeah right :-)

kind regards,
Richard McLean

Life would be so much easier with a soundtrack.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:48:09 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Creativity through Brainstorming, and Revamp of Status Bar

At 04:37 PM 1/16/98 +0000, Paul Frost wrote:
>and no, i don't buy the idea that we are agenda setters. maybe in our
>spare time (with our spare time websites). from my experience, most of
>my work is centred around jumping through corporate hoops. though maybe
>my bleakly practical stance on this one comes from a belief in the fact
>that creators don't have much control over creativity. good ideas don't
>come from brainstorming sessions, they come out of thin air and when you
>least expect them. good ideas are not on tap.

Paul,

I suspect that we basically agree, but one thing you said seems a bit off
to me: the bit about brainstorming sessions. If by "brainstorming sessions"
you mean design by committee, then I would agree with you. That's the best
way to end up with designs that cater solely to the lowest common
denominator (not the browser/platform LCD in this case, but the LCD of
creativity in the group), the very antithesis of true creativity.

However, taking "brainstorming sessions" to mean just that -- a
free-flowing stream of ideas, coming from many people, combining to create
better results than any one member could create alone -- I would have to
disagree with your statement. This mailing list is an excellent example of
what I would consider an extremely valuable brainstorming session. People
throw out questions that others have never considered, and in finding those
answers generate other questions for others, ad infinitum. The end result
is a level of creativity beyond the wildest dreams of any one member of the
list.

A perfect example of this is the image preload status bar problem that
Jester threw out. I posted a solution that worked, but didn't solve the
exact issue of using the images as the status bar itself. Just this morning
I got an email from Kevin Cheng, who, after seeing my solution came up with
a way to display the images as part of the status bar. I took that
suggestion, modified it slightly, and what have we got now? A solution that
exactly solves Jester's problem, designed by brainstorming, and everyone
has gained a bit of knowledge to be used in future creative efforts. The
new version of the status bar can be seen at:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/statusBar/alternate.html

<PHILOSOPHY TYPE="rambling musing">
Creativity is not a gift that you either do or don't have. To a large
extent, Creativity is something that is learned and built upon through your
experiences. The more you examine and experience the workings of the world,
the more you will understand them and be able to create through them.

To the extent that some people seem to be endowed with a more inquisitive
mindset, these people may be better able to expand their creativity than
others. However, this is not to say that Creativity is a realm that belongs
to these people. The tools that allow for creativity can be learned; why
else would there be design programs, or art programs, or music programs?

Brainstorming, in my opinion, is one of the best ways of improving your
creativity. It allows for the transfer of experience and lessons learned
among all members of the group, and these are invaluable in the development
of Creativity.
</PHILOSOPHY>

I have learned a great deal from the discussions and problems/solutions on
this list, and would like to thank you all soundly. Keep 'em coming!

- - Porter

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #140
****************************

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