Babble v1 141

babble-digest Friday, January 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 141

In this issue:
Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information
Re: OK, Designing for Screen Size...what next ?
Rant On
Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information
DESIGN/TECH: flexible vertical spacing
Re: Creativity through Brainstorming, and Revamp of Status Bar
Re: Rant On
Re: Rant On
ask and you shall receive
Re: ask and you shall receive
Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information
Re: Creativity
Re: what direction
Re: what direction - step back?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:34:28 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information

In message <34BF9F06.D2AEF164@starnets.ro>, Armand Niculescu
<armand@starnets.ro> writes
>> > >i was visiting a webcafe a few days ago (a good way to view work on different
>> >machines/setups: and better coffee than the office slop), and two kids were
>> >sitting next to me, surfing the nba website.
>>
>> >they knew what they were trying to get, and seemed one step ahead of the
>> >navigation system, positioning the cursor over menus before they'd arrived,
>> >speed reading pages/using edit/find. basically, a lot more sophisticated than
>> >the designers of the site in question.
>>

>Paul is right.

cheers dear. where's the vaseline, i'm gonna give my beautiful ego a
rubdown.

>I've watched kids in a local Internet Caf and I also
>saw my girlfriend trying to get some info out of the web for the first
>time. Young people learn very fast. I don't have a strong background in
>teaching, but I had the chance to do it and I found that as people are
>younger, they learn faster and it's easier for them to accommodate to
>a new medium.

although true, i think the point is even more fundamental. kids have bee
waiting for multilinear to come along, cos it's what comes naturally
(see below).

>As they grow older it's harder for them to learn
>something they aren't used to. Teaching almost anything computer-
>related to a teenager is a charm. Trying to do the same thing on
>a 40 year old person is a nightmare.
>
>But I also found another interesting thing: Most young people are
>looking primarily for *information* on the web. I never saw anyone
>visiting a site just because it looks cool.

cos kids take this as a prequisite, not an optional xtra. and rightly
so, too

>I mean, design is not
>as important for them as the information contained in the site.
>If they can find what they want, they'll love the site. If not,
>they'll leave. Maybe this is just a local aspect, since here we
>have to pay for the time online and one prefers to actually get
>something useful, not just to stare at pretty stuff.

>Should we try to please the client who pays the bill or the guy
>or gal who visits the site?

the kids who visit. **intelligent** clients (the guys who pay) know this, and
are prepared to be guided by webconsultants (spot the bitter tone).

i think that kids are so unfazed by design because to them, it's pretty
primitive (as opposed to when you show a client a tacky piece of animation).

i think also that my point relates to the fact that kids precisely do not learn
web skills: they seem to have innate connections with what's happening in tech.
at least this is my experience. and designers who are hip to this will take
advantage of it.

as seems to a theme of my posts/thoughts right now, the links between this and
TV/film are startling (i'm not imposing metaphors, so don't misunderstand):
adults **never** seem to understand the fast cut process of MTV/taratinoesque
productions. think about it: 20 years ago, ppl at film school had it drummed
into them that shots have a fairly long (by today's standards) minimum duration.
yet kids, eager to be proactive and channel surf have inspired a revolution.
those short film snippets on MTV are some of the most innovative TV productions
ever made, and the innovation is grounded in form, not content.

even the bbc do fastcut edits now. i'm pleased i live in a culture where ppl can
deal with soundbites. (the convention of linear thinking is destabilised by the
channel surfer). we have masschannel cable to thank for this: it's time to
embrace LCD culture.

as ever, your related artwank is appreciated

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:00:02 -0700
From: Nathan Perry <perry@theshop.com>
Subject: Re: OK, Designing for Screen Size...what next ?

Check out Flash from Macromedia, and it'll change everything...

At 05:18 AM 1/17/98 +1100, Richard McLean wrote:
>OK. So I've decided to decide for screen size.
>
>Not so much for larger screens, for that centered tables seem good enough
>for me at this stage. But with people talking about 500 pixels screen res
>in older Macs & Powerbooks, I was wondering if there is an easy way to do
>it.
>
>One thing that would seem necessary to me in this situation is the scaling
>of page elements. It's fine to have variable table widths, but what about
>being able to scale the elements too. Is there an easier way than using
>scripting todetect the screen res & subsitute the smaller GIF, JPEG or
>whatever. Or using two versions of the site.
>
>Each seems to have their problems, is there a way that is problem free
>(yeah right :-)
>
>
>kind regards,
>Richard McLean
>
>Life would be so much easier with a soundtrack.
>
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:54:26 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Rant On

www.movado.com is reviewed by high five this week. Here's my review.

MOVADO SITE - WAY TOO MANY THINGS ALWAYS IN MOTION

OK, the opening page, with the moving watch? As irritating as a web
page can get. Regardless of the fact that "Movado" means "always in
motion", the flickering of the watch movement still distracts the
readers attention away from the text.

The "Art of Performance" opening page? Even worse. I've seen other
pages where a series of multiple images are shown at random and this
one is just as bad as those are. The jerky way in which the pictures
come and go makes my eyeballs hurt. At some point, these types of
pages were probably seen as cutting edge, but really, aren't they
really just sooo primitive? No one really thinks they look cool, do
they?

"A History of Innovation"? I sit in front of this damn tube everyday,
eyes already flickering all over the screen as it is, so do I or
anyone else who uses a computer for any length of time need to see the
words "Its illustrious past is but a prelude to its future" come up in
random order and then just as I get the damn thing read, have them
disappear and be replaced by a page that's just as bad? A page where a
couple of words change color for no good reason?

"Artists and Museums"? More random flickering images, only smaller.
Hint to all web designers: small changing images equals more
flickering equals more jerkiness equals more eye strain. My cranium
hurts! I mean, jeez, the darn things don't stay still long enough for
me to get a mouse over 'em before they're gone.

It's interesting to me that once you get to a page where you can find
out how to buy something, all the movement stops. If moving images and
text are so important, why aren't they used on the "money" pages?
Maybe they should have the hands of a watch moving so they convince us
their products actually work. I guess the designers intended for the
animation on the other pages to simply be catchy attention-getting
devices. This is probably obvious, but though they do get my
attention, they also make me want to put my fist through the screen.

At a job I once had, about 10 years ago, some guy had a primitive
little program that would draw a risque picture of a women on the
screen. At first the picture just sat there. But then it later on it
would move around. Upon seeing this, one guy called out, "Hey! It
rotates", with huge guffaws following. If you took one of my former
co-workers directly from the past into the present day and sat them
down in front of Movado's site, I'm sure they would be amazed. But for
those of us in the here and now, is there anything that great about
it?

Give me static pages any day over Movado's type of site. In fact, if
there was no movement on Movado's site, I'd be crazy about it. The
pictures are nice, the design is well-done, and it's informative.

Hey, Movado! Make sure your watches keep moving, but please keep your
web pages from doing so.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

And another thing:

<stoopid html tag number 1>

Must we continue this trend where we enclose various parts of our
email messages within made-up "html" tags. It's quite the old hat
thing to do isn't it? Does anyone else find this annoying?

</stupid html tag number 1>

Oh, darn, my ending tag doesn't match my beginning tag. Can you guys
still read my rant?

-chris
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:33:11 -0800
From: Design Publish Plus <dpplus@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information

Armand Niculescu wrote:

> >>... But what do *visitors* want?
> Is there a study somewhere, based on age and other factors?
> Should we pursue bleeding-edge technologies or just present the
> information in an elegant and efficient way?
> Should we try to please the client who pays the bill or the guy
> or gal who visits the site?...
>

I won't address the old vs young learning skills. I did, however, read recently
(don't remember where) that the fastest growing segment of internet users is over
55. Do we need to worry about the surge of "Boomers" going on-line? For instance,
making buttons much, much larger to accommodate their failing eyesight? (joke) I
guess that is another thread.

Recently a twenty-something friend complained to me about the proliferation of web
sites with confusing entrances and exits, layers, blinking and swirling images and
impossibly organized information. This coming from someone who grew up on computers.

I am finding more and more visually beautiful sites (good news) that appeal to me as
an experienced designer but are annoying me no end when I try to navigate through
them. My time is precious and I don't fancy wasting it trying to figure out how or
where to go to get what I need. I won't even get into the long load times of some
otherwise wonderful sites. I, like so many users, hit stop and move on to another
site. To paraphrase a professor I once had "It is the designers job to create order
out of chaos."

I suppose what is bothering me about some responses to this topic is the seeming
lack of respect for users whatever their range of skills. This is the way I make my
living so respect for client and user alike is vital to my livelihood. So, I will go
with the "elegant and efficient way" and in my spare time work on bleeding-edge
skills which of course will be needed soon as users catch up to new technology.

A. Hyde

>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:38:22 -0500
From: "Joe Calleja" <joe@torweb.com>
Subject: DESIGN/TECH: flexible vertical spacing

A big thank you to all who took time out of their busy days to respond to
my query. Some "complete guides" to HTML aren't nearly as well informed as
you are!

For all who may like to know, it seems that all major browsers (NN 3+ and
IE 3+) seem to handle vertical spacing of outside, main tables without
problems (ie: one row is 80% high, the second is 20%). However, only IE 4
seems to be able to correctly display imbedded tables with
relatively-specified row heights. For an example, you can take a look here,
and resize your windows a couple of times:

http://www2.torweb.com/tws_dev/home3.htm

The vertical alignment of the imbedded table (which aligns the FPO images)
is fine in IE 4, but this table collapses in the other browsers. I'll
experiment some more, and let you all know if I make a ground-breaking
discovery -- HA!

+ + +
Joe Calleja | Creative Director
Toronto Web Services
416.955.1779 | joe@torweb.com
visit us at http://www.torweb.com
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:47:30 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Creativity through Brainstorming, and Revamp of Status Bar

In message <3.0.3.32.19980116134809.02957a38@cen.com>, Porter
Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com> writes
>At 04:37 PM 1/16/98 +0000, Paul Frost wrote:
>>and no, i don't buy the idea that we are agenda setters. maybe in our
>>spare time (with our spare time websites). from my experience, most of
>>my work is centred around jumping through corporate hoops. though maybe
>>my bleakly practical stance on this one comes from a belief in the fact
>>that creators don't have much control over creativity. good ideas don't
>>come from brainstorming sessions, they come out of thin air and when you
>>least expect them. good ideas are not on tap.
>
>Paul,
>
>I suspect that we basically agree, but one thing you said seems a bit off
>to me: the bit about brainstorming sessions. If by "brainstorming sessions"
>you mean design by committee, then I would agree with you. That's the best
>way to end up with designs that cater solely to the lowest common
>denominator (not the browser/platform LCD in this case, but the LCD of
>creativity in the group), the very antithesis of true creativity.

Hi Porter

this is precisely what i mean: irony being, i accept, that this is far from the
original concept. more specifically, i was referring to a recent meeting i was
forced to attend, and was told a marketing that we were gonna "brainstorm"
before this marketing circus troupe began to spout off about "new media." design
by committee where the lowest points are very low is a painful process, believe
me.

perhaps i should have made this more clear (?) but i figured the tone of the
mail impied its context. as for the remainder of your comments, <echo>

perhaps also my comments reflect my opinions on the abilities of the groups i've
been "brainstorming" with. you'd be hard pushed to find the LCD (this is
connoted in a negative sense...).

as to the tale of the status bar, it's one of the best interactions on this list
to-date. what i was precisely not saying is that creativity is the domain of
individual thought alone: i think those oudated concepts of the muse and
artistic struggle mean very little anymore

just figured i'd clear up any confusion. and yeah, i think we basically
disagree.

moral of the fable: "there's a quality difference between the mentality of
people on the list and most realworld marketing execs" (as one would expect).

pkf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:45:38 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Rant On

At 02:54 PM 1/16/98 -0500, Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com wrote:
[snip]
> Hey, Movado! Make sure your watches keep moving, but please keep your
> web pages from doing so.

Yeah, ditto on that, maybe not as strongly as Chris seems to feel. At first
it was OK... annoying but tolerable. After going through the site, it got
to be rather a pain.

> And another thing:
>
> <stoopid html tag number 1>
>
> Must we continue this trend where we enclose various parts of our
> email messages within made-up "html" tags. It's quite the old hat
> thing to do isn't it? Does anyone else find this annoying?
>
> </stupid html tag number 1>

I don't know about anyone else, but I mostly do this to signal that I may
be going of on something of a tangent. "Skip this if you don't feel like
reading my rambling," is basically what they are meant to mean. If y'all
would rather that I mix my rambling in with my well reasoned responses :)
then that's fine by me. Otherwise . . .

<CHIDE TONE="mothering">Sounds like someone needs a nap.</CHIDE>

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:36:38 -0800
From: BobNancy <bobnancy@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Rant On

Chris, Porter and all,

How do you guys stand it? When I fire up my straight vanilla IE4 (all
default settings) and look, first I get a splash with the words:

WELCOME TO MOV
ADO

Don't these guys ever *look* at what they are putting up? So I looked using
a vanilla NN4 - works - at least no weird line break. Admittedly IE does
not have the majority of users, but 30-40% is still quite a few.

Personally, I'm a little disheartened by what makes it to the H5 review.
I've found all kinds of broken links, misplaced banner text, typos and on
and on. I can understand not being able to prepare for *every* eventuality,
but out-of-the-box settings? Mostly I don't bother to look at the reviewed
sites because what I have seen, is, well, less than well done. Good
graphics as a rule, but almost always poor execution.

Bob

bob lathe
Bob & Nancy's Services
http://www.bobnancy.com
mailto:bob@bobnancy.com
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:33:22 -0800
From: Jason Harris <jason@meniscusdesign.com>
Subject: ask and you shall receive

Behold the power of the babble...

Didn't someone just recently have on their wish list a wall poster of
web palette colors? Well, R35 has just gone and done that! Check out
http://www.r35.com/direct/ It comes bundled with their already awesome
webColor mouse pad for only $20!

Now lets see, my wish list goes like this: Apple sells the incredible
new G3 tower to us babblers at cost, Adobe uses list members to beta
test new software and Bill Gates posts a question on how to use the <P>
tag (no really have you seen his part of the MS site?
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/ it, um, really utilizes all those
IE4 features huh?)

Just having fun for once!

Jason Harris
Meniscus Interactive
http://www.meniscusdesign.com
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:07:50 -0000
From: "Howard Shaw" <hjs@hetleys.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ask and you shall receive

>Now lets see, my wish list goes like this: Apple sells the incredible
>new G3 tower to us babblers at cost,

Cheaper to buy it in the shops then ;)

Howard
>
>Just having fun for once!
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:59:20 +0000
From: "Nick Senior" <nssoonfa@mica.edu>
Subject: Re: Interface design - kids vs adults; design vs information

>But I also found another interesting thing: Most young people are
>looking primarily for *information* on the web. I never saw anyone
>visiting a site just because it looks cool. I mean, design is not
>as important for them as the information contained in the site.
>If they can find what they want, they'll love the site. If not,
>they'll leave. Maybe this is just a local aspect, since here we
>have to pay for the time online and one prefers to actually get
>something useful, not just to stare at pretty stuff.

I'm an admitted "youngin"ish, 19 in perspective to all you OOOOLLLLLD over
25 people on this list or all you ANCIENT over 30 people....<gets ugly looks
from around the room, "heh, just kidding... heh..> :) And I personally enjoy
a damn good looking site over an ungly site with useful information, may its
because I've been really getting into design and have been doing it for
about 3 years now is why, or maybe its because I'm an art student or maybe
its because I'm getting <GASP> older and more mature.... I dont know, what
about any other "youngins" on the list?

Nick Senior
GlassBee [de]signs
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:07:55 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: Creativity

Eloquent indeed, although I know of artists/designers who take the arduous
chore of meticulously filing "ideas" that emerge from previous attempts for
later use. That way, he/she will always have some kind of idea database to
fight with...

jorge

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
To: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 10:10 AM
Subject: Creativity

>Here, here. What a direct, to-the-point, eloquent way to see it.
>
>When I'm asked, "How long does it take to build this page?" (by people in
>my organization!) I want to scream - I understand why we must attach
>timeframes, but this is the fact of the matter (quoted):
>
>though maybe
>my bleakly practical stance on this one comes from a belief in the fact
>that creators don't have much control over creativity. good ideas don't
>come from brainstorming sessions, they come out of thin air and when you
>least expect them. good ideas are not on tap.
>
>... Bravo.
>
>
>
>Ryan Ferguson
>www.webworkx.com
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:33:13 -0600
From: egan jones <egan@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: what direction

>>To be honest, designing for such a medium would be my worst nightmare,
>>because you wouldn't know where to start as a designer because there are
>>just too many options...
>
>sort of like a blank canvas, right? 8)

Nightmare? Potentially. (that's why we have w3.org,
...now if only the big guys would adheir)
Blank Canvas? Definately.

I'll bet a few pretty pennies that one of the main things that
links us ALL together is the CHALLENGE.

The challenge to make it great.
The challenge to push it.
To see how FAR we can take it.
To see how *good* we can make it _look_
and and how *well* we can make it _work_.
..for everyone (well, almost)

Would we really be "happy", as some suggested, if it were easy?
Would we be staying up til 4am working on this stuff if it were easy?
Would we have left our other jobs, our other lives, to do this if it were easy?
Would we be making $$ if it were easy? (wait ...are we making $$ ?)

anyway...

</babble>
egan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:05:49 -0600
From: egan jones <egan@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: what direction - step back?

On another note:
>The W3C offers good guidlines for HTML...but HTML won't be around
>forever...the web is WAY too young to start stunting its growth with
>'standards'.

HTML won't be around forever?!

Not to take us "backward" but...

I read a very interesting article the other month/year ("Ensuring the
Longevity of Digital Documents," by Jeff Rothenberg; Scientific American,
January 1995) about the "usable lifetime" of digital media, commenting on
how paper is king. Well, not necessarily,... but at least with paper, you
can just look at it and get the info from it you need (even if the paper is
hundreds or thousands of years old!).

You don't need to have the right "standard", the right browser, the right
OS, the right media reader/player. What happens when someone gives you
valuable information on a Mac-CD 10, 20, 100 years in the microsoft-future?
<shudder> It's worse than giving someone a 8-inch floppy, 8-track tape, or
even punch-cards now!

It and the article below also (briefly) discuss the continual process of
porting digital information from format to format to format. HTML is not
forever... ...and neither are our webpages...

But alas, the aformentioned article is only on paper... at the library...
...not at your search-engine-fingertips.

see http://www.sciam.com/0397issue/0397lesk.html#1 for a glimpse.

I think I recall the orig question which sparked this GREAT thread was
"What direction do you see the web moving in" ...or something like that.

Take a momentary step back.

Read this thought-provoking article.

Look at the big picture.

It will change your perspective on things.

Then get back to work...

egan

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #141
****************************

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