Babble v1 165

babble-digest Wednesday, January 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 166

In this issue:
Re: (page refresh)Bug in Netscape: in which conditions?
Re: (page refresh)Bug in Netscape: in which conditions?
have you seen this?
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Starting out in Shockwave
Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: have you seen this?
RE: Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: Starting out in Shockwave
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: seen this? (gabocorp) +
Gabocorp
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
printing from a button on the page
(gabocorp): what their site shows and doesn't show

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:43:19 +0100
From: Frank Schmitz <fschmitz@web-active.com>
Subject: Re: (page refresh)Bug in Netscape: in which conditions?

Robert A. Nehlig wrote:
> Someone mentioned to me that Windows NT servers are the source for the page
> refreshes, citing the phenomenon as a way in which one can tell an NT server
> from a Unix. I have never been able to verify this claim. Perhaps someone
> can test it.

Hi Rob,
I'm afraid this bug does not only appear on NT-Servers.
I have experienced this bug on an Apache 1.2.x on a Linux-System.
Sadly, the problem is not apparent in every Browser, even in the
same Version of Netscape.
I was using NN3.01 at that time and a friend of mine was also using
NN3.01, and we both were on a Windows 95 OS.
I had no problems whatsoever, but he told me that the pages were all
reloading...

For what it's worth, The pages did not use Frames, but they did use
a DOCTYPE-Tag. Once the charset-Tag was removed, everything worked as
advertised. Since then, there's this little rule in my Web-Design
Survival Guide: "Do not use the charset-Tag" ;-)

Frank
- --
************************************************************************
* frank schmitz, leitung web-design * fon: +49 2241 924895 *
* web@ctive - ges. f. online-komm. * fax: +49 2241 924897 *
* rathausallee 10 * email: fschmitz@web-active.com *
* d-53757 st. augustin * http://www.web-active.com *
************************************************************************
PGP-Key available on request

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:50:12 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (page refresh)Bug in Netscape: in which conditions?

In message <01BD2B3E.707870B0.ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>, Chris
Kaminski <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com> writes
>>Someone mentioned to me that Windows NT servers are the source for the
>>page refreshes,
>
>
> The place I used to work at hosted all their sites on NT, but only 1
>site
>I did ever did the refresh thing, so unless NT servers somehow are affected
>by documents with the <DOCTYPE> tag (and I have no idea why they would be),
>I doubt it has anything to do with whether the server is running on NT or
>UNIX.
> It really seems more like a client-side thing, if you ask me.
>
> Chris Kaminski
> Intranet Designer
> Genoa Business Forms, Inc.
>
>
>
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i've witnessed the problem on UNIX based servers. i figure it is a client
problem, which i've seen occur in nav 2,3, and 4 on wintel, and nav3 macintosh.

Paul Frost
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:50:51 -0000
From: Robin <rgrant@brann-interactive.com>
Subject: have you seen this?

have you seen this:

http://www.gabocorp.com/ ?

[if you haven't, I suggest you go and look, it's awesome, and isn't anything to do with me]

DISCUSS

Robin

==========================================================
Robin Grant, Production Manager, Brann Interactive
100 Victoria, Bristol, UK, BS1 6HE - http://www.brann-interactive.com/
phone: 0117 914 6260, fax: 0117 914 6125, mobile: 0973 638 390
email: robin@perfect.co.uk, icq: 362763, www: http://www.perfect.co.uk/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:58:29 GMT
From: Jason Holland <jason@head-newmedia.com>
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

>http://www.gabocorp.com/ ?
>
>[if you haven't, I suggest you go and look, it's awesome, and isn't
>anything to do with me]
>
>DISCUSS

Probably the best use of flash I've ever seen. But:

I seem to be getting a lot of frames where the background flashes/shows
through the shockwave area when the flash movie is in a repeat loop (and a
javascript error on the flash detection script btw). Is this just a Mac
problem, as I see this quite a lot and no-one seems to correct the problem?

Especially like the tetrahedron approach to navigation in the samples area.
It could be used to drill down deep into any web site if used as a global
navigator.

Jason Holland (Creative Director)
Head New Media 444 Brixton Road London
Tel: +44(0)171 737 7579 Fax: +44 (0)171 737 7971
http://www.head-newmedia.com http://www.head-space.com/Jay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:55:45 -0600
From: Jeremy Marx <jmarx@sparknet.net>
Subject: Starting out in Shockwave

I'm interested in starting out in Shockwave Flash 2.

What is involved?

What programs do I need?

All help is appreciated.

J e r e m y M a r x
Webmaster
SparkNET Interactive
<http://www.sparknet-interactive.com/>http://www.sparknet-interactive.com/
ICQ: <http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5719871>http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5719871

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:49:32 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

Regarding http://www.gabocorp.com/, from whose site I quote:

"Remember, that we do not make slow, stiff, boring sites that drive your
customers away".

(Choose the "Our Prices" selection from the main menu to see this quote).

Hey, all you web designers out there, the ones who don't create sites like
Gabocorp, how does it feel to know your sites are stiff and boring? What
obnoxious drivel. Or maybe it should just be chalked up to over-hyped
marketing. In any case, I don't agree with Jason this time, when he says
that www.gabocorp.com is

>"the best use of [Shockwave Flash] I've ever seen".

Gabocorp is trying to wow people that visit their site and to drum up
business using this site as evidence of what they can do. Well, having the
navigational tools of a web site floating around all over the screen does
not a good web site make. Sure, the first time you chose a selection, the
"oooo, ahhh" factor of the site is bumped up, but this bump is only
momentary. I think most people would get somewhat annoyed with the
navigation on this site after using it for a few minutes and extremely
annoyed if most web sites used a similar scheme. The latter is what
Gabocorp promises on their splash screen: "This is the new standard for all
things to come". If Gabocorp wanted to add such navigational tools to my
web site, I'd veto the idea forthwith. This is not to say that Gabocorp
can't make a good site by utilizing Flash, but I think they would
demonstrate this ability more effectively if they would point the surfer to
some sites they have actually created. Of course, these sites would need to
use Flash for a practical purpose, instead of just for navigational eye
candy.

I know it's easier to tear a site down with criticism than to build it up
with praise, but the "...we do not make slow, stiff, boring sites that
drive your customers away" statement really gripes my cookies. If you want
to imply that most web sites are stiff and boring and that you can create
sites that are oh so much better, then I would expect more supporting
evidence than the Gabocorp site delivers. After seeing their navigational
tools float around a couple of times, their site drove me away quite
quickly.

- -chris mabry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:08:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: have you seen this?

damn.

"epic" is a good word i would like to use for this site... thanx for the
url..

i think im gonna buy some stock in macromedia ;)

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Robin wrote:

> have you seen this:
>
> http://www.gabocorp.com/ ?
>
> [if you haven't, I suggest you go and look, it's awesome, and isn't anything to do with me]
>
> DISCUSS
>
> :)
>
> Robin
>
> ==========================================================
> Robin Grant, Production Manager, Brann Interactive
> 100 Victoria, Bristol, UK, BS1 6HE - http://www.brann-interactive.com/
> phone: 0117 914 6260, fax: 0117 914 6125, mobile: 0973 638 390
> email: robin@perfect.co.uk, icq: 362763, www: http://www.perfect.co.uk/
>
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:47:02 +0200
From: Steve Crane <stevec@datapro.co.za>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

On the subject of sites using Flash. Have a look at
http://www.squeal.co.za. I must admit that I haven't visited all that
many sites using Flash but this is one of the better ones I've seen.

Steve Crane (MCSD, SBN2 Member)
E-mail ......... mailto:stevec@datapro.co.za
Web (Company) .. http://www.datapro.co.za
(Personal).. http://home.pix.za/pa/pak00325
ICQ Pager ...... http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4364105

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:50:04 EET
From: "Kimba #." <kgranlun@yrkes.syi.fi>
Subject: Re: Starting out in Shockwave

Hi Jeremy.

> I'm interested in starting out in Shockwave Flash 2.
> What is involved?
Read more here..
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/

> What programs do I need?
Basically you need "Macromedia Flash" only.. but for more quality or
easier drawings I'd recommend Freehand.. You can export and import
between Flash and Freehand, from what i'm used to Flash's vector
painting is'nt that precise and the grid-system is kinda weak.. My
suggestion is by both. (Freehand 7 + Animation Powerpack and Flash 2)
or wait til Freehand 8 is available.. (Should be by now..)..

BTW: You can download a 30 day trial of Flash 2 here:
http://205.238.132.86/macmedia/flash2.html

Good luck!

Kim Granlund
_____________________________________________
http://thor.syi.fi/~kgranlun
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:58:33 -0800
From: Luis Cota <softech@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com wrote:
>
> Regarding http://www.gabocorp.com/, from whose site I quote:
>
> "Remember, that we do not make slow, stiff, boring sites that drive your
> customers away".
>
> (Choose the "Our Prices" selection from the main menu to see this quote).
>
> Hey, all you web designers out there, the ones who don't create sites like
> Gabocorp, how does it feel to know your sites are stiff and boring? What
> obnoxious drivel. Or maybe it should just be chalked up to over-hyped
> marketing. In any case, I don't agree with Jason this time, when he says
> that www.gabocorp.com is
>
> >"the best use of [Shockwave Flash] I've ever seen".
>
> Gabocorp is trying to wow people that visit their site and to drum up
> business using this site as evidence of what they can do. Well, having the
> navigational tools of a web site floating around all over the screen does
> not a good web site make. Sure, the first time you chose a selection, the
> "oooo, ahhh" factor of the site is bumped up, but this bump is only
> momentary. I think most people would get somewhat annoyed with the
> navigation on this site after using it for a few minutes and extremely
> annoyed if most web sites used a similar scheme. The latter is what
> Gabocorp promises on their splash screen: "This is the new standard for all
> things to come". If Gabocorp wanted to add such navigational tools to my
> web site, I'd veto the idea forthwith. This is not to say that Gabocorp
> can't make a good site by utilizing Flash, but I think they would
> demonstrate this ability more effectively if they would point the surfer to
> some sites they have actually created. Of course, these sites would need to
> use Flash for a practical purpose, instead of just for navigational eye
> candy.
>
> I know it's easier to tear a site down with criticism than to build it up
> with praise, but the "...we do not make slow, stiff, boring sites that
> drive your customers away" statement really gripes my cookies. If you want
> to imply that most web sites are stiff and boring and that you can create
> sites that are oh so much better, then I would expect more supporting
> evidence than the Gabocorp site delivers. After seeing their navigational
> tools float around a couple of times, their site drove me away quite
> quickly.
>
> -chris mabry

hey, look, this web site is very well designed. there is no way you can
say that the navigation can be complex at all, because the navigation
elements are made very clear. also, when you compare that gabocorp.com
to other web sites, you have to admit that it is somewhat livelier.
whether you agree with them or not, animation is probably a direction
that the web is headed for. besides, them sayin that this is the "new
standard" should not come across as offensive. in fact, right now, flash
is probably a very powerful tool in terms of the web. and, right now,
you can consider it a relatively new standard, considering that both 4.0
browsers include it natively. besides, why the bitter tone? i think that
this web site is not only eyecandy, it is informative. also, why do you
care that they hvaen't told you their url's? they did design their own
web site, isn't that enough proof of their talent?

luis cota
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:03:25 GMT
From: Jason Holland <jason@head-newmedia.com>
Subject: Re: seen this? (gabocorp) +

>If you want to imply that most web sites are stiff and boring and that you
>can create
>sites that are oh so much better, then I would expect more supporting
>evidence than the Gabocorp site delivers.

Do you really need evidence to know that 99 percent of pages on the
internet ARE bad. They may be a great way for anyone to express themselves
through a new channel, but with "what some may consider" amateurs having
access to the tools of the trade, the majority of the internet LOOKS
terrible (with a lot of the content matching this low standard). I've
written about this before ( http://www.head-space.com/Jay/firstrant.html )
and I know a lot of people will call me a design snob, but I just get a
little sick of the trash that fills most of the WWW. Thankfully lists like
this are around for the creative thinkers among us to feed off each other
and turn the face of the internet around, but well (what most people would
consider) designed sites are still a thin film of pure oil floating on a
muddy pond.

BTW I do agree that the gabocorp quote is the wrong way to approach a
possible client.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:01:18 -0800
From: Kevin Cheng <chengn@sfu.ca>
Subject: Gabocorp

sound:

gabocorp's music got INCREDIBLY annoying after a while. that was a huge
gripe with me. and my very first thought.

navigation:

the navigation doesn't actually take up the entire site. it moves around
when you click it, which to me, is the whole point of flash. just
because we can't do things like that without flash doesn't mean it's not
a good thing. what are you doing while you wait for other pages to load
anyways? being bored. so why not a little glitz in the process.

but back to the navigation itself. whenever a selection is made, they
keep the selection graphic for identity ("you are here" marker) and the
only piece of "obstrusive" navigation is the main menu button.

i actually have a problem with this. the top navigation bar and the main
menu are not really related. i'd prefer if i was able to jump directly
to sections rather than having to go back tot he main menu every time.

has anyone looked at his personal homepage? the navigation there is
pretty slick and doesn't take up the whole site.

"slow, boring sites":

i hardly think of this as an insult. it may be poorly worded but i don't
take it as implication that EVERYONE ELSE has slow, boring sites. to me,
it's simply an aknowledgement that there IS crap out there (i think
that's pretty unianimous) and that gabocorp isn't one of them.

his homepage details his background if you're interested. amazingly
similar to my own.

summary:

background sound - annoying
navigation - fairly simple but a pain to go back to main menu all
the time and the top bar doesn't correspond with the main menu
graphics - nicely done

all in my own opinions (duh),

kev

- --
.-----------------.-------------------------------------------------.
| kevin cheng | simon fraser university computer engineering |
| chengn@sfu.ca | euss co-prez # illusion designs |
| kevin@osl.com | http://www.sfu.ca/~chengn |
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:09:56 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

I said:
"Regarding http://www.gabocorp.com/, from whose site I quote"

Christopher Daniels said:
"Every advertiser knows that there are no rules in advertisment and if
people come to his site and are "oooo , ahhhhed" off their ass ....more
power to the kid."

Hey, if the "kid" gets more power and more clients through his advertising,
I have no problem with that. But Babble is a list devoted to discussing web
design, not web marketing. What I'm saying is that the "ooo, ahhh" factor
doesn't help in the *design* of this site.

Christopher Daniels said:
"I think your the only one spilling with obnxious drivel.
(don't tear down what you can't make strive to make something better.)"

Well, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just stating my honest opinion about
the design of the Gabocorp site. Can you (or someone else) tell me exactly
what was obnoxious about my post, if anything? If it was my tone of voice,
er, uh, typing, then I can work on my expression. If it was the content of
my post, then please address that and then we'll be discussing design,
which is the intent of Babble.

As for tearing things down, I don't mean to tear down simply for the sake
of tearing down. Remember the <blink> element? Is or was good use ever made
of it? I don't think so, and because it isn't very useful, designers have
pretty much sent it where it belongs, to the garbage heap of web design. As
for the use of Flash on www.gabocorp.com, what does it accomplish?

Luis Cota said:
"hey, look, this web site is very well designed. there is no way you can
say that the navigation can be complex at all, because the navigation
elements are made very clear."

I didn't say the navigation is complex. I said it drove me away quickly.
The reason it did so is because I find it annoying after a very short time.
How many times can you stand to see the navigational elements rotate and
float around before you get annoyed? Now, if they didn't rotate, then I
would have no problem with them and would say that the site is very well
designed. But the rotation and floatation is part of the design, and I
simply don't like it. If you do, then of course that's fine, but what
exactly is it that you like and would you still like it if something
similar was used on the sites that you visit most often?

Jason Holland said:
"Do you really need evidence to know that 99 percent of pages on the
internet ARE bad." AND "the majority of the internet LOOKS terrible".

I suppose I did over-react to Gabocorp's "stiff and boring" statement, and
due to the strength of the over-reaction, you may have taken my comments to
mean that I think most of the web is beautiful and exciting. Well, I don't!
But I don't see how sites of the Gabocorp variety are going to make the web
any more attractive.

As a final comment to all, and as a summary of my views on the Gabocorp
site, let me state that while I don't like design of Gabocorp due to the
way Flash is used on it, their mastery of the technology gives me
confidence that Gabocorp can develop sites that use it effectively, ***if
they use it for practical purposes*** and not navigation.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:33:52 +0100
From: "Halans Jean-Jacques" <jean.jacques.halans@skynet.be>
Subject: printing from a button on the page

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD2C23.AA1014A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Is it possible to print from a button on the webpage?
(not with rightclicking the mouse or at the top of the page)
Just a button, you click and you get a printout.
Anybody outthere knows? (javascript, java, activex?)

Greetings from planet earth,

Halans Jean-Jacques

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD2C23.AA1014A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.2016.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it possible to print from a button on the=20
webpage?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(not with rightclicking the mouse or at the top of =
the=20
page)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just a button, you click and you get a=20
printout.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Anybody outthere knows? (javascript, java,=20
activex?)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Greetings from planet =
earth,</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Halans =
Jean-Jacques</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD2C23.AA1014A0--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:06:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Lara Schmidt <lara@coe.missouri.edu>
Subject: (gabocorp): what their site shows and doesn't show

> Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com wrote:
[snip]
> > Gabocorp is trying to wow people that visit their site and to drum up
> > business using this site as evidence of what they can do. Well, having the
> > navigational tools of a web site floating around all over the screen does
> > not a good web site make.
[snip]
> > things to come". If Gabocorp wanted to add such navigational tools to my
> > web site, I'd veto the idea forthwith. This is not to say that Gabocorp
> > can't make a good site by utilizing Flash, but I think they would
> > demonstrate this ability more effectively if they would point the surfer to
> > some sites they have actually created. Of course, these sites would need to
> > use Flash for a practical purpose, instead of just for navigational eye
> > candy.
[snip]
> > sites that are oh so much better, then I would expect more supporting
> > evidence than the Gabocorp site delivers.

> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Luis Cota wrote:
[big snip]
> browsers include it natively. besides, why the bitter tone? i think that
> this web site is not only eyecandy, it is informative. also, why do you
> care that they hvaen't told you their url's? they did design their own
> web site, isn't that enough proof of their talent?

To one extent yes, their site IS undoubtedly proof of talent. They are
obvously talented designers and handy with the Flash. But I have to agree
with Chris on one point, this site does not necessarily prove to Joe
Businessman that they can serve the needs of his business and his
customers. I wouldn't know if it showed any examples of its other sites.
It always locks up my browser (Communicator 4.04, Power PC) when I get to
the work site.
Functionality, interactivity, and meeting customers' business needs--none
of these things come out of the bells and whistles for me.

Great artists, but it seems these guys need to work on their business
savy.

- -Lara

|----------Lara Anne Schmidt--------------lara@coe.missouri.edu------|
|Officially: Web Applications Developer, CTIE |
|Unofficially: poet, musician, web designer and generally artsy gal |
|--------www.coe.missouri.edu/~lara-------------------ICQ# 5739596---|

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #166
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