Babble v1 167

babble-digest Wednesday, January 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 167

In this issue:
Intranet application question
request for a url (attention: gabocorp gabbers)
Re: Gabocorp
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: printing from a button on the page
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
hail gabbo...sorta
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
perl gif utility...
Re: printing from a button on the page
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
The Gabocorp Hoopla
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: hail gabbo...sorta
RE: Intranet application question
Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: hail gabbo...sorta

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:28:47 -0800
From: Phil Scimone <scimone@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Intranet application question

I'm working on a concept for a directory application (intranet). This
application would list all employees and allow delete and modify transactions.
I was considering Microsoft Access as the DB and maybe Visual Basic as the
language. Can anyone direct me to a URL that has implemented a similar
application, or point me in a direction to determine the scope of the project?

Best Regards,
Phil
scimone@ix.netcom.com

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:36:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Lara Schmidt <lara@coe.missouri.edu>
Subject: request for a url (attention: gabocorp gabbers)

Hey guys,

I keep on trying, but EVERY TIME I try and navagate through the Gabocorp
site, my browser locks up. Could someone please give me the URL for the
personal, geocities page? I can't get there from here.

|----------Lara Anne Schmidt--------------lara@coe.missouri.edu------|
|Officially: Web Applications Developer, CTIE |
|Unofficially: poet, musician, web designer and generally artsy gal |
|--------www.coe.missouri.edu/~lara-------------------ICQ# 5739596---|

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:24:53 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Re: Gabocorp

"has anyone looked at his personal homepage? the navigation there is pretty
slick and doesn't take up the whole site."

I hate one liner posts, but just so you know that I in no way meant to
disparage Garbo out of hand, let me say that I agree with the above. The
personal homepage is quite nice.

- -chris
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:52:37 -0500
From: mike randall <mrandall@imcinternet.net>
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

> design, not web marketing. What I'm saying is that the "ooo, ahhh" factor
> doesn't help in the *design* of this site.

are you kidding?????? do you have any idea of what you are talking
about? have you any idea of what kind of field you are in??? the web
exists strictly for marketing. without it, there is no way it would
survive. period.

> pretty much sent it where it belongs, to the garbage heap of web design. As
> for the use of Flash on www.gabocorp.com, what does it accomplish?

it accomplishes the separation between the people that know what they're
doing, vs. the guy that bought HTML for dummies, who calls himself a
webdesigner. it's flashy (no pun intended) which is what the site for a
design company needs to be.

i for one am very impressed.

> The reason it did so is because I find it annoying after a very short time.
> How many times can you stand to see the navigational elements rotate and
> float around before you get annoyed? Now, if they didn't rotate, then I

awwww... did it make you a little dizzy? same with stop lights, i bet
you find them annoying after a very short time too.

"i don't want to stop for this red light, it's too red. If it was a
pinkish color, then it would be just fine."

> But I don't see how sites of the Gabocorp variety are going to make the web
> any more attractive.

but it makes it more interesting, more unique. how many sites have you
seen with "rounded" button edges, and navigation on the left side?
coming up with something unique is what makes you worth so much more.

i liked the site. my only gripe with it was the file size (around
200k), which is completely unacceptable. aside from that, it has
original design, all the required shit is there (navigation(a+),
readabilty (b-)) and it was fun. it captures the visitor which is what
the web SHOULD be all about.

- -mike
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:55:04 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: Re: printing from a button on the page

I was actually wondering this myself. I was thinking to have a popup
window with a text version of the content. That way, people could print
a halfway decent copy of the page's content. I still think they need to
do a cmd-P/cntrl-P though.

If it is possible to get around this let me know.

Halans Jean-Jacques wrote:

> Hi, Is it possible to print from a button on the webpage?(not with
> rightclicking the mouse or at the top of the page)Just a button, you
> click and you get a printout.Anybody outthere knows? (javascript,
> java, activex?) Greetings from planet earth, Halans Jean-Jacques

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:32:04 +0100
From: Marc Elmlund <marc@wineasy.se>
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

It's a bit funny that some of you claim that this is a well designed site.
I really don't agree. Why?
Well for starters the first thing that popped up on my screen was a error
message from IE 4 saying that something was wrong with the JavaScript. Oh,
well shit happens.
Second, I was slaped in the face with a 404 on my first click.
I know that normally you get three swings but when it was time for that
third one I was already out of the ballpark heading for the parking lot.

Marc Elmlund
xponent media
Stockholm, Sweden
marc@wineasy.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:17:47 -0700
From: Trope newMedia <trope@teleport.com>
Subject: hail gabbo...sorta

i really like gabbo, the technology is smooth, the sound is sublime, the
design may be a bit self absorbed and even ham-fisted (injustices i'm also
guilty of at times), but the navigation is extremely clean and inventive,
even masterful . as eye candy, gabbo freakin rocks .

but (and as peewee herman says "everyone always has a big but") gabbo's
guerilla marketing and convenience store business plan doesn't inspire a
lot of confidence . are they out to get clients or scare the hell out of
them ? they violate the first rule of marketing when they tell us what they
can do as opposed to showing us what they can do . if their own site is
their only evidence, i don't see a lot of range here . the aesthetic is
straight out of the video gaming culture, which, in my opinion can be
extremely claustrophobic when it comes to branding and generating audience
emotion . it works great for RIven, but try telling the marketing dept. at
apple or nike that the vector look with 3d buttons and cool sounds is what
generates dollars and they'd laugh you out off the compound .

if gabo and the tech loving aesthetic is in fact a generation ahead, we
must consider that even the most progressive businesses (nike, apple) are a
generation behind . i wish these people well, i think once they realize how
damaging it is to infuse your ego with your marketing, they'll do extremely
well .

right now this site reminds me of that babylon 5 show . it looks really
good, it sounds really good, but the script sucks .

and until the world has flash, the point is moot .

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:10:03 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

mike randall:
"are you kidding?????? do you have any idea of what you are talking about?
have you any idea of what kind of field you are in??? the web exists
strictly for marketing. without it, there is no way it would survive.
period."

So, a navigation scheme such as that on Gabocorp is going to help a company
market their product? I really don't think so. If Coke uses that scheme on
their web page, are you going to go buy more of their product? I wouldn't.
If the navigational elements turn into pictures of bikini-clad women as
they rotate, then maybe I will! After all, sex sells, but floating buttons
don't.

mike randall:
"it accomplishes the separation between the people that know what they're
doing, vs. the guy that bought HTML for dummies, who calls himself a
webdesigner. it's flashy (no pun intended) which is what the site for a
design company needs to be."

Yes, their navigation is good marketing for their *own* site, but it won't
help most commercial based sites move product.

mike randall:
"awwww... did it make you a little dizzy? same with stop lights, i bet
you find them annoying after a very short time too."

Ad hominen attacks will get you nowhere with intelligent readers. Actually,
I'm already dizzy as I have a strong form of vertigo. Truth be told, when I
saw the Gabocorp site, I became completely level-headed. Sort of like if
after you rotate real fast in one direction and then rotate in the
opposite, you'll end up walkin' straight as an arrow. The dizzifying
effects of the Gabosite are quite powerful.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:52:50 -0500 (EST)
From: c l a r a s o h <clara.soh@yale.edu>
Subject: perl gif utility...

hi,

a while back i heard of a little perl gif utility that went through html
and added height and width tags. and now i'm paying for my initial
laziness in not putting them in by having to insert them all manually.
has anyone seen this program (or anything else) that will do this?

ok, thanks
clara.

____________________________________ c . l . a . r . a . . pc'99__________

if you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is
where they should be. now put the foundations under them.
-hdt
________http://pantheon.yale.edu/~claras__________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:01:34 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: Re: printing from a button on the page

Halans Jean-Jacques wrote:

No. It's not possible to print buy means of a button. You may want to
look into offering a PDF version of your document if you have something
for print off your page. Yes, there would involve a plug-in but the
quality is top-notch. Cmd-P/Cntrl-P is the only other option.

Erik
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:54:43 -0500
From: leslie harpold <leslie@fearless.net>
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

At 02:52 PM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> design, not web marketing. What I'm saying is that the "ooo, ahhh" factor
>> doesn't help in the *design* of this site.
>
>are you kidding?????? do you have any idea of what you are talking
>about? have you any idea of what kind of field you are in??? the web
>exists strictly for marketing. without it, there is no way it would
>survive. period.

quick poll, how many of you cried when you read this?
i didn't actually shed real tears, but man, ouch.

and i make my living doing web marketing of some sort, at least lst time
ichecked.

the web exists for many purposes and is funded - where it is funded by
marketing as is all media.

of course, that above statement is jsut the ultimate postmodern stance but
still. i think it more accurate to say the web exists for many reasons and
the profit generating sites ahve a marketing focus or are underwritten by
marketers etc.

really it exists for the governemnt, at least it did initially,
universities and the govt.

but you know, if anyone looks at anything too long, someone will sell ad
space on it. and that has an upside so i can't complain, since, as i said
i make a living doing that sort of thing. but the living i make finanaces
the other more obsessive and non commercial projects.

they need each other, ithink.

leslie harpold
http://smug.com http://www.hoopla.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"the answer is there, but 'there' is not a
fixed position" - Fugazi
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:59:26 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: The Gabocorp Hoopla

Re: Gabocorp site - http://www.gabocorp.com/
Referenced material included at bottom.

OK, I've had time to mull Gabocorp's site over in my mind. Here's a
snapshot of my opinion at this moment: (Please forgive the sound-bite
nature of my brain. I tend to think in image fragments.)

I liked the concept and, for the most part, the execution of the site. (I
found several things that I would do differently, but that's the way design
works.) I disagree with the comments about the navigation's moving about
the screen being disconcerting. For me it was very nice to see an
implementation of a design that provided actual, literal flow from one
section to another -- something that is not currently possible with
straight HTML.

We don't experience life as a series of points, but as a path between
points. Much of our job as Web Designers/Developers is to overcome the
point-to-point nature of the whole hypertext paradigm. Consistent color
schemes, consistent navigational themes, interfaces that always tell the
user where they are in the site structure -- all of these are designed to
solve the problem that humans think "process flow," while computers present
"current state." We are starting to see interfaces that better take this
into account. In order to do this, designers will need to deconstruct some
of the rules and common-sense notions that are in place concerning
designing for the Web today.

(This brings up a point in my head as I write this: The rule about
navigation is not that it should always be in the same place, or even look
the same, but that it should lend itself to easily accessing the
information that it sits on top of, however this is best accomplished in a
given situation.)

While I agree that navigating around Gabocorp's site is somewhat awkward,
having to return to the main menu to enter another area, I really
appreciate the outside-the-box thinking as far as the transformation from
menu to subsection goes. This site is no harder to navigate than any other
plain HTML site out there that uses the same navigational scheme. Finding a
design that incorporates the transitional aspects of Gabocorp's site with
random access navigation would be a large improvement, and certainly
something worth examination.

As for the background and event-based sound, I really liked the overall
effect, but could see how it would begin to get tiresome after a while. Did
anyone else notice the little control at the bottom left of the browser
that lets you stop and start the background sound? This is one of the
elements that needs to be cleaned up, and made more obvious, I think.

To sum up, I give Gabacorp a "thumbs up" not particularly because it is
"the new standard for all things to come," but because it is one of many
steps being taken towards a new perception of Web-based design. Oh yeah,
and because I like designs that flash shiny objects at me. :)

- - Porter

Referenced -=-=-=-=-=-=-

At 10:01 AM 1/28/98 -0800, Kevin Cheng wrote:
[snip]
>gabocorp's music got INCREDIBLY annoying after a while. that was a huge
>gripe with me. and my very first thought.
[snip]
>i actually have a problem with this. the top navigation bar and the main
>menu are not really related. i'd prefer if i was able to jump directly
>to sections rather than having to go back tot he main menu every time.
[snip]

At 01:09 PM 1/28/98 -0500, Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com wrote:
[snip]
>I didn't say the navigation is complex. I said it drove me away quickly.
>The reason it did so is because I find it annoying after a very short time.
>How many times can you stand to see the navigational elements rotate and
>float around before you get annoyed? Now, if they didn't rotate, then I
>would have no problem with them and would say that the site is very well
>designed. But the rotation and floatation is part of the design, and I
>simply don't like it.
[snip]
>As a final comment to all, and as a summary of my views on the Gabocorp
>site, let me state that while I don't like design of Gabocorp due to the
>way Flash is used on it, their mastery of the technology gives me
>confidence that Gabocorp can develop sites that use it effectively, ***if
>they use it for practical purposes*** and not navigation.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:06:30 -0500
From: Dreadscott Internet Productions <java@dreadscott.com>
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

At 02:52 PM 1/28/98 -0500, mike randall wrote:
>> design, not web marketing. What I'm saying is that the "ooo, ahhh" factor
>> doesn't help in the *design* of this site.
>
>are you kidding?????? do you have any idea of what you are talking
>about? have you any idea of what kind of field you are in??? the web
>exists strictly for marketing. without it, there is no way it would
>survive. period.

Um, sorry to be the wet blanket from academia, but just to remind you, the
Internet and the web existed in the university and for university folks
(along with a few businesses- mostly high-tech, and the govt of course)
long before it became the "marketing phenomenon" of the late 90s. It did
exist and thrive before commericalism, and would continue to do so,
regardless of commercial presence. Mosaic, the first major browser, was
designed to make scientific visualization of data possible for univ
researchers, among other things.
Mind you, I worked in academia as a geek on the Internet, and I find the
WEB a much more interesting, diverse and useful (albeit slower) place
thanks to private users' presence and commercial presence.
But lets not all believe that without corporate sites and business
marketing dollars that the Net would collapse- quite the opposite almost
happened when bandwidth demand increased so greatly and gov't and
university network infrastructure were over-taxed by outside users.

Lisa G.

- -,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-
Dreadscott Internet Productions
Lisa Gade
java@dreadscott.com
http://www.dreadscott.com
- -,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth."-Picasso

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:15:15 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: hail gabbo...sorta

The fact that such lengthy discussion arose from the short posting
introducing http://www.gabocorp.com/ gives me another reason to give the
site my thumbs up!
It looks like this type of work will be very influencial to most of us and
who knows, maybe it will start a trend. I salute their desgners.

Jorge

- -----Original Message-----
From: Trope newMedia <trope@teleport.com>
To: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 12:52 PM
Subject: hail gabbo...sorta

>i really like gabbo, the technology is smooth, the sound is sublime, the
>design may be a bit self absorbed and even ham-fisted (injustices i'm also
>guilty of at times), but the navigation is extremely clean and inventive,
>even masterful . as eye candy, gabbo freakin rocks .
>
>but (and as peewee herman says "everyone always has a big but") gabbo's
>guerilla marketing and convenience store business plan doesn't inspire a
>lot of confidence . are they out to get clients or scare the hell out of
>them ? they violate the first rule of marketing when they tell us what they
>can do as opposed to showing us what they can do . if their own site is
>their only evidence, i don't see a lot of range here . the aesthetic is
>straight out of the video gaming culture, which, in my opinion can be
>extremely claustrophobic when it comes to branding and generating audience
>emotion . it works great for RIven, but try telling the marketing dept. at
>apple or nike that the vector look with 3d buttons and cool sounds is what
>generates dollars and they'd laugh you out off the compound .
>
>if gabo and the tech loving aesthetic is in fact a generation ahead, we
>must consider that even the most progressive businesses (nike, apple) are a
>generation behind . i wish these people well, i think once they realize how
>damaging it is to infuse your ego with your marketing, they'll do extremely
>well .
>
>right now this site reminds me of that babylon 5 show . it looks really
>good, it sounds really good, but the script sucks .
>
>and until the world has flash, the point is moot .
>
>
>-j
>
>
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:11:11 -0800
From: Marc Northover <marc@eni.net>
Subject: RE: Intranet application question

I put together a corporate directory for the company intranet and had many componants:
Front end: search capabilities by first name, last name, department, branch office
lists of employees by branch, department
list of branch offices
list of departments
Admin Tools:
insert/modify/delete branch offices
i/m/d departments
i/m/d employees

Almost all other intranet applications running in some way interface with this database. We have a
conference room calendar scheduler, time off request, business card request, time sheet tracking, project
management tracking, etc. It all revolves around who has access to do what based upon who is in what
department and so forth...

This list is not complete but does give an example.
As far as what database/language to use I personally use perl/DBI/DBD interface, but it shouldn't
matter (once the design is in place the rest is a snap!!)

Marc

- -----Original Message-----
From: Phil Scimone [SMTP:scimone@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 11:29 AM
To: babble@highfive.com
Subject: Intranet application question

Best Regards,
Phil
scimone@ix.netcom.com

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:25:40 EST
From: NEOMASTINO <NEOMASTINO@aol.com>
Subject: Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com wrote:

>>Regarding http://www.gabocorp.com/, from whose site I quote:

"Remember, that we do not make slow, stiff, boring sites that drive your
customers away".>>

I consider a site like this user unfriendly. I think we can easily get to
carried away with using plugins and it limits a company's audience. Not
everyone is using the latest equipment and too much shock tends to cause some
to freeze up.

Many will not bother to go get the plug in to view the sight. Most of the
average surfers I know do not go fetch a plugin to see what someone is trying
to sell them. So, while the site may not be boring, it can in fact chase MANY
potential customers away.

In my ever so humble opinion, I don't mind sites that use some shock, so long
as a site does not depend upon it. This one does.

donna ayala
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:38:44 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: Re: hail gabbo...sorta

Trope newMedia wrote:
<SNIP>

> but (and as peewee herman says "everyone always has a big but") gabbo's
> guerilla marketing and convenience store business plan doesn't inspire a
> lot of confidence . are they out to get clients or scare the hell out of
> them ? they violate the first rule of marketing when they tell us what they
> can do as opposed to showing us what they can do . if their own site is
> their only evidence, i don't see a lot of range here . the aesthetic is
> straight out of the video gaming culture, which, in my opinion can be
> extremely claustrophobic when it comes to branding and generating audience
> emotion . it works great for RIven, but try telling the marketing dept. at
> apple or nike that the vector look with 3d buttons and cool sounds is what
> generates dollars and they'd laugh you out off the compound .
>

I don't agree that gabo fails to show us what they can do. Maybe they don't
need to "tell us what they can do", but the flash stuff itself demonstrates
what they can do.

I suspect gabo is a one man show run by a guy in his late teens or early
twenties. Hardly the type to have much marketing experience. What he really
needs is somebody to teach him selling techniques.

gabo's approach is perfect for entertainment branding. In your face, quick
edit, blinking gizmos are used in the video game industry, music industry,
soda pop commercials, just about any product aimed at the 15-24 male
market.hmmm, what if gabo is targetting a techno centric business? Branding
strategies do not always fit the same foot. If you want to promote Apple as a
successful brand I think you need to "Think Different". Marketing and branding
failures is what has caused them to lose great amounts of money. Aside from
some pockets of the US coasts Apple has failed miserably in their current ad
campaigns if exposure is a measuring stick. Aside from some graphic industry
trades I haven't seen an Apple ad in years. They've always had good tech but
how to market it? How was the Newton branded? Hell, how is the mac branded?
Apple is littered with good products that failed because of inadequate or
nonexistent marketing/branding.

As for Nike, they just go to show that throwing millions of dollars of money
at a gullible public willing to pay outrageous amounts for a fetish item can
be successful. Virtually the same can be said for MS and Intel.

> if gabo and the tech loving aesthetic is in fact a generation ahead, we
> must consider that even the most progressive businesses (nike, apple) are a
> generation behind . i wish these people well, i think once they realize how
> damaging it is to infuse your ego with your marketing, they'll do extremely
> well .
>
> right now this site reminds me of that babylon 5 show . it looks really
> good, it sounds really good, but the script sucks .
>

I must disagree with you on B5. Its the acting (presentation) that blows not
the script (the content). And I would never hold a company like Nike as a
"progressive business". Successful, yes. Progressive, no.

> and until the world has flash, the point is moot .

Until the world has web access the point is moot. There's what? 57 million
homes in the US with web access. 20% of the US. More than twice as many people
watched the Superbowl last week. Does that make the web moot? Hardly.

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #167
****************************

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