Babble v1 177

babble-digest Monday, February 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 177

In this issue:
Best hosts - top performance
Re: babble-digest V1 #176
Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo
CSS Paragraphs
One last Netly request
priorities
drop down menu for AOL?
RE: Stabilty of Flash?
my homepages
Press talk
be afraid, be very afraid
Re: Babble Archives
Illustrator 7.0
Re: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem
Re: be afraid, be very afraid
Trademarking

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 14:40:04 +0100
From: Ikonos <Ikonos.sas@agora.stm.it>
Subject: Best hosts - top performance

Dear friends, hi again from Rome.

In the past I have received some good referrals and links to find out
where to host and at what prices my clients' Web sites on US servers.
I have scrutinized many and am about to sign my first two contracts.
One questions escapes me:

How can I find out the real performance of this hosting servers, the
number of hops to the main backbone, and the real throughput they will
give me once I pay? Almost none gives these technical details.
Any suggestion?

Mille grazie,

Luigi
Is still the best way is to try?
- --
Luigi Canali-De-Rossi
Director
IKONOS s.a.s. Multimedia
"Strategic creativity for Information design,
multimedia and new media projects development"
e-mail: Ikonos.sas@agora.stm.it
phone: 39-6-33.50.365 fax: 33.11.946
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 08:52:55 -0600
From: Ryan Everhart <rme8494@ksu.edu>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #176

What is a simple way to do thumbnails?

Ryan Everhart

babble-digest wrote:

> babble-digest Monday, February 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 176
>
> In this issue:
> gabbo & jodi
> www.gabocorp.com - what's the fuss?
> places for free hosting...
> trashing people's sites...
> Gabocorp
> jodi and gabo
> IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo
> Interesting idea at Graphica 6 (shinzo.com)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:15:42 -0600
> From: "M. Howard" <dogbird@gte.net>
> Subject: gabbo & jodi
>
> New to the list on this very day, I'm curious about these wonderous sites, gabbo and jodi. Would y'all mind reposting the URLs?
>
> Thanks,
>
> M. Howard
>
> M. Howard
> Designer
> Dogbird Graphics, Poetics, & Sound
> http://www.nmc.siu.edu/~mhoward
>
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> .."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:43:16 -0200 (GMT)
> From: Rushton Clive <swimagic@hol.gr>
> Subject: www.gabocorp.com - what's the fuss?
>
> I visited www.gabocorp.com with my ailing 486, 4Mb RAM, analog line, NS1.1
> setup and I can't understand what all the fuss is about.
> I got a black screen.
> I was neither offended nor impressed.
> It was a nice shade of black, though.
>
> ink2info EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATIONS
> - ----------------------------------------------------
> Web site design - Copywriting - Critique
> Clive Rushton, All rights reserved.
> clive@lactate.com : swimagic@hol.gr
> "Computers are useless; they only know answers." Picasso
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:30:56 -0500
> From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
> Subject: places for free hosting...
>
> Greetings:
>
> I am attempting to compile a comprehensive list of places where people
> can host their sites for free, like GeoCities. I'd appreciate the URLs
> of some of the ones that you think might not be as well known. When I'm
> done, I will be sure to forward the URL for the reference of all. Please
> forward the info to me at:
>
> mailto:tari@sympatico.ca
>
> - --
> ...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
> ...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
> ...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
> ...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
> ...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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> .."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:38:33 -0500
> From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
> Subject: trashing people's sites...
>
> I too am British in origin although I now live in Canada. One of the
> things I learned as a child in England was how to be polite, and I do
> try to be, most of the time. I don't think calling people's sites
> garbage heaps, and then, bigger garbageheaps, is needed. Perhaps you did
> stir up some strong feelings, but I am not sure that it was quite as
> inadvertant as you claim, especially when you upped the ante by repeated
> your garbageheap assertion. Perhaps you do have thick skin, but I
> suspect that you would not like it if someone trashed your sites. You
> might, like most people, prefer to hear some constructive criticism.
> There is such a thing as disagreeing without being disagreeable.
>
> - --
> ...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
> ...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
> ...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
> ...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
> ...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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> .."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:33:25 -0500
> From: "RhapsodyIB@msn.com" <RhapsodyIB@email.msn.com>
> Subject: Gabocorp
>
> I am not a web-designer so perhaps my contribution is not valid. Visiting
> http://www.gabocorp.com
> was seeing a piece of art exhibition in motion. I am a Painter by profession
> so I might think that way. My connection speed was 31.2kb when I just
> visited this page. This is very congested hour but after the initial wait
> the graphics loaded pretty fast.
>
> My admiration for this author, who is 19 years old Engineering Student in
> Puerto Rico.
> I feel exhilarated seeing any Artist striving for his/her best.
>
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> .."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:41:06 -0600
> From: "M. Howard" <dogbird@gte.net>
> Subject: jodi and gabo
>
> gabo is majorly cool. The disappearing browser trick (assuming that's intentional) is startling, but new enough at this point not to be annoying. If I were looking for a designer, I would contact them. It felt a bit like suddenly falling into the beginning of a David Lynch movie.
>
> jodi is another story. Of course it's scary. It seems to want me to think it's crashing my machine. At one point my browser did freeze up, and I had to do a forced restart. This happened when I tried to get out of a page that gave me no "stop" or "back" option on the toolbar. As for graphical impact, though, I loved it. I'm at a point right now that anything that looks like I haven't seen it before gets my attention, though.
>
> If this is all redundant, please forgive me. This is my first day here.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> "Don't worry! Without a monster or two, it's not a Quest at all-- merely a gaggle of friends wandering about."
> -- Owl, Pooh's friend.
>
> Margaret Howard
> Director/Designer
> Dogbird Graphics, Poetics, & Sound
> http://www.nmc.siu.edu/~mhoward
> _________________________________________________________________________
>
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
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> .."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:42:26 +0800
> From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
> Subject: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo
>
> After posting a resent request for info on a bug in IE4 Mac regarding CSS,
> the majority of people who responded did not seem to see what I meant (my
> fault as I could not give access to the site I am working on). I have
> created a page to show the basic problem, for peoples information and for
> Microsofts.
>
> I have no soloution to this problem at this point, but am still looking.
> You can see the page for yourself at http://www.eycon.com.au/ie4problem/.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>
> Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
> managing director
> 3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
> Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
> Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> .."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:20:04 +1000
> From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
> Subject: Interesting idea at Graphica 6 (shinzo.com)
>
> Pascale Camus-Walter mentined shinzo.com, which he really liked...a very
> interesting site, and I have to tell all of you to particularly check out:
> http://shinzo.com/6+/laBo/motiontext/index.html
> I had to run back and forth thru this quite a few times - deceptively simple,
> yet highy elegant. Even the manual scrollbar adds to it, I feel.
>
> Caleb Fuller
> analog creations | digital media
> email@calebfuller.com
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of babble-digest V1 #176
> ****************************

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:00:46 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo

>After posting a resent request for info on a bug in IE4 Mac regarding CSS,
>the majority of people who responded did not seem to see what I meant (my
> fault as I could not give access to the site I am working on). I have
> created a page to show the basic problem, for peoples information and for
> Microsofts.
> http://www.eycon.com.au/ie4problem/.

i posted a similar page at
http://www.zeldman.com/bad.html

it seems both our announcements were eclipsed by the continuing controversy
over gabocorp and jodi.org.

or maybe list members are more comfortable arguing over aesthetics instead
of discussing the failure of the most basic tools available to us (web
browsers).

not a dis -- this IS a design list, first and foremost.

but i agree with chris; when web browsers trash our carefully-wrought
designs, it's worth discussing.

jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"Slick and experimental, like all his work." - Mediadome

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 17:56:49 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: CSS Paragraphs

Does anyone know of a way to override the extra paragraph space in a
style sheet?

If I use a para indent, I don't want a para space too, but I can't find
any way to get rid of it.

Is there a way of creating an indent independently of a paragraph <P> (ie
after a <BR>) or do I just stick to a run of  s

TIA

Joe Gillespie

____________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s_____________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:30:29 -0600
From: Greg Lindsay <greg@babelfish.net>
Subject: One last Netly request

Hello, everyone;

This is the last call, I promise, to anyone on the list who would
like to talk about gabocorp.com to the press. The piece is slated to run
tomorrow and I am drastically short of reactions from babblers. If you were
planning to say something to me but haven't gotten around to it yet, please
do it as soon as possible! Thanks again, everyone.

Greg Lindsay

- ------------------------
greg lindsay
The Netly News
(217) 332 4100
greg@babelfish.net
www.netlynews.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:35:45 -0600
From: "M. Howard" <dogbird@gte.net>
Subject: priorities

I sent a message to Chris suggesting putting all the paragraphes in seperate table cells.

_________________________________________________________________________
"Don't worry! Without a monster or two, it's not a Quest at all-- merely a gaggle of friends wandering about."
-- Owl, Pooh's friend.

Margaret Howard
Director/Designer
Dogbird Graphics, Poetics, & Sound
http://www.nmc.siu.edu/~mhoward
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:58:42 +0100
From: cvodb <vonb@xs4all.nl>
Subject: drop down menu for AOL?

I'm having trouble with a javascript drop down menu on my site
which AOL people cannot seem to use.
Anyone know a cross-platform & ISP drop down menu javascript,
or can help me change the one I have?
(it's at <http://gavinfriday.com/core.html> and ensuing pages.

ta,

Caroline

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:05:23 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Stabilty of Flash?

On Sunday, February 01, 1998 12:44 AM, rwilliams
[SMTP:rwilliams@webmedia.com.au] wrote:
> Hi all, thought I'd re-emerge from lurkdom,
>
> With all the discussion about the gabbo site, did anyone strike problems
> with their browser crashing while veiwing it. Several times, Either my
> broswer or PC(wintel) crashed at some point while viewing this site. Has
> anyone had similar problems or do I have to chuck Terminator Pro
> graphics card in the garbage heap. I have the Flash 2 editor and have
> had no problems using it. I was using NN3. Browser problem, hardware or
> Flash?

I've had the same trouble with IE4 on NT 4 SR3 until today. You might
want to try it again. Perhaps the author has tweaked things a bit.
Regardless, I was *much* more impressed this time.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Designer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:25:26 +0200
From: Juha Rudanko <Juha.Bona@sci.fi>
Subject: my homepages

Hi,

I just re-designed my web pages, and I'd hope you could visit them and
tell me what you think. Do you think the pages are "well designed". All
suggestions are welcome.
The url: www.jrudanko.home.ml.org/

Juha Rudanko

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:35:58 -0600
From: "M. Howard" <dogbird@gte.net>
Subject: Press talk

Gee, I'd be happy to, but I've only been here for one day.

>Hello, everyone;

Greg Lindsay

Margaret Howard
Director/Designer
Dogbird Graphics, Poetics, & Sound
http://www.nmc.siu.edu/~mhoward
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:02:24 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: be afraid, be very afraid

In message <v03010d02b0f9127988eb@[204.202.160.151]>, Trope newMedia
<trope@teleport.com> writes
>someone suggested a look at that web designers' list of deadly sins from
>zdnet . i took the bait and hopped over to
>http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_1716.html . the zdnet author's
>brilliant insights include a slam against under construction banners and
>dead links . i've been asked to keep my comments more objective than they
>have been . could we also ask that babblers keep redunant uninformed crap
>like off the list and too themselves ?

i've really tried to stay clear of this one. really i have.....
but i've gotta **do** something. this time it's personal.... (not
really, but i love cliched melodrama).

brilliant insights slamming broken links? geeez. we should all lay down
our wacom pens and get paid millions for being a links consultant. while
the zdnet comments may be true, they ain't ever gonna be brilliant. ever
ever ever.

second: my dad's bigger than your dad and he's gonna beat him up..... or
some other such uninformed crap.... we all like being childish, but the
restraints of modern societal pressures say no...

on an unrelated point, the honda uk site (www.honda.co.uk) is supposed
to be aimed at women (according to the site's designers). how do they
figure/do this?is this patronising. discuss. not rant.

go see, and wonder.....

"don't know about you but i am un chien andalusia"
Paul Frost Web Development
www.phw.co.uk Priority Healthcare Wearside
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk Sunderland, UK
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:04:11 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Babble Archives

In message <ea4b7864.34d38745@aol.com>, TheGilster@aol.com writes
>Dear Babblers,
> Is the Babble list archived anywhere on the H5 site? If not, I think
>that the H5 should consider settingo ne up, as it might be useful
>for those to check past threads before sending out new ones. It would also
>act a place to reference someone to it if you notice the needs of a listee
>have already been answered. Anyone with me on this one?
right as ever. if this hasn't been done, i'm going to squeam and squeam

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:34:00 -0500
From: Rick Whittington <rwhittin@mail.vt.edu>
Subject: Illustrator 7.0

Hi. Does anyone know of any sites that offer tutorials for Illustrator
7.0? Thank you in advance.

Rick Whittington
rwhittin@vt.edu
"If you agree with me then I'm just telling you. If you disagree then I'm
teaching you."
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Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:15:57 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: Re: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem

I think I have this problem licked, at least for IE 4 on mac. You have to
workaround with a <DIV> instead of a <P>. View source to learn more...

http://www.spy.net/~celsion/test/csstest.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:18:54 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: be afraid, be very afraid

At 09:02 PM 2/2/98 +0000, Paul Frost wrote:
[snip]
>on an unrelated point, the honda uk site (www.honda.co.uk) is supposed
>to be aimed at women (according to the site's designers). how do they
>figure/do this?is this patronising. discuss. not rant.
[snip]

Sorry... this set off my rant-o-matic. I mean no personal offense towards
any parties involved with this site. As someone else on the list said, I'm
just sending the steak back:

<TONGUE LOCATION="cheek" ALIGN="firmly">
Well, they probably did an in-depth case study on the correlation of men's
and women's shopping habits to their Web surfing habits, and their roots in
the basic instincts of the two genders.

While women prefer to browse through a store, experiencing the sights,
sounds and general ambience, and perhaps buy a thing or two; men go to a
store to hunt and kill a shirt and bring it home. Therefore, instead of
clearly labeling links or providing a structured navigational system to
allow for the quick retrieval of information, the designers opted for red
and gray dots that go "boop" when you mouse over them.
</TONGUE>

Well, now that I've successfully labeled myself and a
politically-incorrect, male chauvinist pig . . .

Seriously, can anyone understand the navigation of the subsections of this
site. Not only are the buttons on the left side not labeled at all (there's
not even a statusbar HREF since they're using Flash), but clicking the top
links to take you to another section loads, not the top-level page for that
section, but whatever page you had selected from the last section. That is,
if I'm looking at the page in the Environment section that corresponds to
the third gray dot from the top, clicking the "pleasure" link takes me to
the page in the Pleasure section that corresponds with that third dot.

As far as graphics go, it's a very nice-looking site, but it seems
indicative of the current trend in Web design -- teams of graphic designers
transitioning to Web design, running wild with no foundation in
user-interface design. Many of the recent H5 sites have been the same way:
Braun and Keneth Cole being the most egregious offenders of late.

There's a lot more to making a "good" Web site than making it look pretty.
It needs to be navigable, at least at a functional level, otherwise you end
up with a Web filled with bimbo sites -- all face, no interface.

There are some other internal things that I feel are lacking from the Honda
UK site, but they are eclipsed by this issue of navigation. Big thumbs-down
from me -- but then again, I'm not part of their target audience.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:50:42 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: Trademarking

Dear Babblers,
Being a 14 year old you might now expect me to care so much about legal
issues, but I am really desperate to find out how to trademark my company's
name. Can anyone provide me with links on this issue? Thanks in advance.

Gil Kruger
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End of babble-digest V1 #177
****************************

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