Babble v1 178

babble-digest Monday, February 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 178

In this issue:
A "Refreshing" Post
Re: Trademarking
Re: A "Refreshing" Post
Re: Trademarking
honda site
maximize windows?
Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo
GRAPHICS: good 3D apps for Mac?
Honda
Re: Trademarking
Re: CSS Paragraphs
Re: Trademarking
Re: Trademarking
Re: Trademarking
Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo
Re: CSS Paragraphs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 12:23:00 -0800
From: joel_tallent@miramax.com
Subject: A "Refreshing" Post

Dear Mr. Babble:

I maintain a site that uses frames. I recently picked up a useful piece of Java
script. If someone tries to load my site into one of their frames, this script
will refresh the window and load my frames doc into the new window. Cool. Now,
here's my question: If a page is accessed directly, when it should really be
inside of a frame (which is quite easily done in IE), is there a way to detect
this and load the main frames doc instead?

I thought about a "refresh" META tag in each page, but wouldn't that cause an
endless loop as the pages loaded into the frame?

- --Joel Tallent
http://www.quakecafe.com/jvox

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:12:22 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

At 05:50 PM 2/2/98 EST, TheGilster@aol.com wrote:
>Dear Babblers,
> Being a 14 year old you might now expect me to care so much about legal
>issues, but I am really desperate to find out how to trademark my company's
>name. Can anyone provide me with links on this issue? Thanks in advance.
[snip]

Basically, all you have to do to trademark a phrase or logo or some such
material that you are using is place the trademark "TM" next to it in your
design. It is similar to the copyright (c) mark in the respect that it does
not need to be registered for you to claim it; you only need to be able to
legally claim the marked material as yours, and be using it to uniquely
identify some business good or service that you are offering. (There is a
distinction between marks for goods, trademarks, and marks for services,
service marks; however, their treatment is the same.)

You can register a trademark or copyright with the federal or state
government in order to provide a higher level of ownership security. This
would allow you to use the registered trade/service mark (r).

Internet Trademark Resources:
U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
http://www.uspto.gov/

USPTO Basic Facts About Registering A Trademark
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/

Wrighthenson Patent, trademark & copyright basics
http://www.wrighthenson.com/pct1.htm

Trademark History & Background
http://www.patents-tm.com/tmrkhistor.htm

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:36:55 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: A "Refreshing" Post

At 12:23 PM 1/28/98 -0800, joel_tallent@miramax.com wrote:
[snip]
>I maintain a site that uses frames. I recently picked up a useful piece of
>Javascript. If someone tries to load my site into one of their frames, this
>script will refresh the window and load my frames doc into the new window.
>Cool. Now, here's my question: If a page is accessed directly, when it should
>really be inside of a frame (which is quite easily done in IE), is there a
way
>to detect this and load the main frames doc instead?
[snip]

There have been several permutations on solutions to this problem posted to
the list in the last few months. A while back, I posted a possible solution
to this problem at:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/frame1.html

Loading that page should cause the base frameset to load. To get what you
want, this could be expanded with the ability to specify which documents
are loaded into the frameset that I demonstrated at:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/singleFrameset/

Also, Ben Curtis posted a demo where each document carries around
JavaScript code to generate the frameset appropriate for that document, if
it is loaded without a frameset at:
http://www.wenet.net/~quixote/babble/reloader.html

I would suggest this modification to Ben's method: Move the frame-writing
JavaScript into a function in a separate file that you include with the
<SCRIPT SRC="file.js"> tag, and then call that function, passing it the
page to load. Something like this:

This would allow you to maintain the code for your frameset in a single
place, rather than in every file in your site. And, as an added bonus, the
browser will cache the .js file so that the code only needs to be sent once.

Hope this helps. :)
- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:45:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

i think the best suggestion for this was when i asked about water marking
my image/artwork..

the more things that have the copyright sign on it.. the better.

but if you want to be legit.. talk to the patent/trademark authorities..
that way you have the feds on your side.. :)

i knew a company that only relied on using sign, and had the whole name
ripped away about two years later by a company that had been using the
name for years before...

if your serious about going into "business" ... get your permits and all
that squared away and youll be set to go.

pretty ambitious for a 14 year old.. i dig it!

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Mon, 2 Feb 1998 TheGilster@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Babblers,
> Being a 14 year old you might now expect me to care so much about legal
> issues, but I am really desperate to find out how to trademark my company's
> name. Can anyone provide me with links on this issue? Thanks in advance.
>
> Gil Kruger
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:53:36 -0800
From: "molly w. steenson" <molly@girlwonder.com>
Subject: honda site

At 09:02 PM 2/2/98 +0000, you wrote:

>on an unrelated point, the honda uk site (www.honda.co.uk) is supposed
>to be aimed at women (according to the site's designers). how do they
>figure/do this?is this patronising. discuss. not rant.

it's not patronizing-- so much of marketing is targeted to various groups
of people, and women are no exception. and much of this targeting occurs in
ways that you might not gather on the surface. for instance, tv ads for
cars that use dogs are supposed to target women. ["dogs love trucks!" and
"yo quiero taco bell?"]

it strikes me that either through user testing or brand attribution, they
determined that the concepts of pleasure, individuality, innovation,
environment, and ownership would all appeal to women, or be traits that
they felt were important in buying a car.

many of the quotes in the puzzle come from women. and the images of people
on the site are mostly of women.

but one gripe: the splash page title bar says "first man, then machine".
too bad they couldn't have picked something a bit more gender-neutral in
addressing women...

molly

........................................
molly wright steenson
writer. editor. producer. girl wonder.
molly@girlwonder.com

pro woman. post grrl. maxi.
http://www.maximag.com/

estrogen-powered web network.
http://www.estronet.com/

"If I were on my knees, you'd have a good view of my skull. And I happen to
know you're carrying a chisel."
- --Robyn Hitchcock

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:08:59 -0700
From: Trope newMedia <trope@teleport.com>
Subject: maximize windows?

10 posts later and here it is my first valid useful contribution !

when desiging, do you people out there, generally, consider the possibility
that the end user may maximize the window ? as we all know, even if you
declare a pop up window size the user can still max it out and screw up
your design . i like comprehende's work around, just wonder if anyone else
has some useful hacks . esp. when it comes to bleeding over right edges .

jeff faulkner

____________________________________________
<b>TropE new media creative</b> now up and running at
http://www.teleport.com/~trope
_____________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:13:52 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo

Several people have made suggestions, but we have not got anything to work
"better" then the existing situation shown on the example page
http://www.eycon.com.au/ie4problem/.

The only solution we have that "works" is to create two versions of the
site, one using standard HTML for pre-CSS browsers and the other using only
CSS. This is unacceptable to me, as the amount of work in creating, testing
and maintaining a primarily text based site is doubled. We haven't stopped
looking yet, but its hard enough keeping a site together across so many
systems, without having to deal with such obvious bugs as in Explorer 4.

I have to admit this is the first time I have actually got angry with a
browser manufacturer. While we have had lots of problems with compatibility
in the past (on several sides) this is such an obvious bug and another
example of Microsofts lack of support for the non-Windows based platforms.
Perhaps the Office team should teach the Explorer team a few things!

We are concidering placing a warning at the begining of our sites for
Explorer 4 users, and suggesting if they have problems using the site they
switch to another browser.

Any thoughts on this???

Chris

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 20:46:46 -0500
From: Matthew Snow <snow@maine.rr.com>
Subject: GRAPHICS: good 3D apps for Mac?

hi everyone.
i have been out of the 3d loop for a while. i used to use alias sketch!
and, to a lesser degree, formZ.

what is a good 3d rendering program for the mac nowadays? i heard that
strata studio pro was really good.

thanks in advance.
matt

snow design
portland, maine.
207.774.5452
snow@maine.rr.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:47:53 -0600
From: "M. Howard" <dogbird@gte.net>
Subject: Honda

Alrighty then. I was prepared, after reading Porter G's last post, to hate the Honda site. However, I found myself looking around and thinking, "What is he talking about? Where are the mops and dishes?"

I like the navigation quirks. No, it's not a linear hierarchy, but it is logical. If they were presenting a new or less obscure product, or if they weren't so confident of their target audience's intellegence, perhaps it would have been advisible to go with the LH model.

So, does being addressed as an audience that's different from the usual default <default audience="men"> feel like a condescention? Not in this particular case. I've seen a lot of objectional target content, both empty and interesting, aimed at various target groups. The Honda one seems fairly alright.

I'm wondering, though, if the machine=man thing on the first page is meant as a distraction from the "feminine" interface?

But hey, what about this: "There's a lot more to making a "good" Web site than making it look pretty. It needs to be navigable, at least at a functional level, otherwise you end up with a Web filled with bimbo sites -- all face, no interface." Bimbo sites? Well, Porter, I could argue about that...

_________________________________________________________________________
"Don't worry! Without a monster or two, it's not a Quest at all-- merely a gaggle of friends wandering about."
-- Owl, Pooh's friend.

Margaret Howard
Director/Designer
Dogbird Graphics, Poetics, & Sound
http://www.nmc.siu.edu/~mhoward
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:08:55 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

> Being a 14 year old you might now expect me to care so much about legal
>issues, but I am really desperate to find out how to trademark my company's
>name. Can anyone provide me with links on this issue? Thanks in advance.

I appreciate you caring about legal issues, but I hope 14 year olds, in
general, DO think about legal issues.

As for trademarking a name, any mark can carry the TM symbol if it is being
used as a legitimate trademark. If you have an original mark and you are
using it as a trademark for your business, then by all means, add the TM
symbol. However, you are most likely asking how to 'register' your
trademark (the (R) symbol) which gives you more legal rights to the name
(the biggest being the fact that you can sue for legal costs when fighting
an infringement case).

You can go right to the source at http://www.uspto.gov/ and visit the US
patent and trademark office yourself. There is a lot of information on the
site (though I wouldn't say it is easily retrievable).

This is something you can do yourself, though it is always good to have a
lawyers help. Basically, you need to do a trademark search to make sure no
one else is using your mark/name and then send in the proper apllication
and fee to the US government.

International trademarking can be a bit more difficult.

In the end, you may have bigger problems regarding the fact that you are
only 14 and owning a business.

Keep in mind, though, that I am NOT a lawyer!

- -Darrel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:50:23 -0800
From: Todd Fahrner <fahrner@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: CSS Paragraphs

Thus spake Joe Gillespie:

" Does anyone know of a way to override the extra paragraph space in a
" style sheet?
"
" If I use a para indent, I don't want a para space too, but I can't find
" any way to get rid of it.

Hi Joe!

I suspect your stylesheet's fine, but that the browser you're looking at doesn't implement CSS properly. (In fact, the last part's certain!)

IE4 for Windows will let you do this in the cleanest, most straightforward fashion, namely:

p { margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; text-indent: 1.5em }

<p>I'm a paragraph with a 1.5em indent and no vertical space.</p>

NS4 will render this almost correctly in some cases, but never quite. Pixel units are more reliable, though to maintain proportion with the font size you'll have to nail it down in the same unit system, which will annoy some visitors:

p { margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; text-indent: 18px; font-size: 12px }

<p>I'm a paragraph with a 12-pixel em, an 18-pixel indent, and no vertical space.</p>

Note that in Netscape 4 you'll always have <Hn> elements with 1.33em top- and bottom-margins, no matter what your CSS, so it may sometimes appear that you can't get the space off of paragraphs following - but the headers are to blame.

For IE3, you're just plain hosed if you want to lose the space on paragraphs. If you don't mind confusing non-CSS folk like NS3, you can try something like this:

.p { margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; text-indent: 18px; font-size: 12px }

<div class="p">I'm a div masquerading as a paragraph with a 12-pixel em, an 18-pixel indent,
and no vertical space.</p>

" Is there a way of creating an indent independently of a paragraph <P> (ie
" after a <BR>) or do I just stick to a run of  s

In CSS you've got to associate properties with elements, so not really, but you can always use format-neutral elements like DIV and SPAN - very handy!

Given how awful the CSS implementations generally are, there's certainly plenty of life left in the old <br> and   hacks.

About the other current CSS threads: yes, the implementations suck. Yes, this is horribly dismaying. No, I don't know what to do except complain, and I've been doing lots and lots of that for more than a year now. Actually I've volunteered recently to help a group of engineers fix CSS in the upcoming public release of the Netscape source. So, take an engineer to lunch and tell her what margins are!

Todd Fahrner
mailto:fahrner@pobox.com
http://www.verso.com/agitprop/

The printed page transcends space and time. The printed page, the infinitude of books, must be transcended. THE ELECTRO-LIBRARY.
- El Lissitzky, 1923

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:08:03 -0600
From: Jonathan Magee <spirollel@thegatlinggroup.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

>In the end, you may have bigger problems
>regarding the fact that you are only 14 and
>owning a business.

mm...i generally have found few problems with any such
circumstance.

One thing that you must understand about the web is this: its
low overhead and ease of use have allowed younger artists to
gain public display much more easily. Naturally, since their
work can be often just as well-composed as that of their
elders, they tend to form companies of sorts. So I think
(well, actually, I know) that our dear Gil is not alone.
Probably the most-publicized example of this is
http://www.agendarius.com/ and Miika Saksi, a highfive
alumnus.

eternally,
jonathan

- --

j o n a t h a n |magee
[ http://www.thegatlinggroup.com/~spiro ]
.< <<spirollel[graphic] /4

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:20:01 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

At 09:08 PM 2/2/98 -0600, Jonathan Magee wrote:
>>In the end, you may have bigger problems
>>regarding the fact that you are only 14 and
>>owning a business.
>
>mm...i generally have found few problems with any such
>circumstance.

I can think of one large one right off the top of my head: A 14-year old
cannot sign a legally binding contract. This is going to be a big one to
overcome as far as the business aspect is concerned.

- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:45:51 +0000
From: "molly w. steenson" <molly@girlwonder.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

At 10:20 PM 2/2/98 -0500, Porter Glendinning wrote:
>At 09:08 PM 2/2/98 -0600, Jonathan Magee wrote:
>>>In the end, you may have bigger problems
>>>regarding the fact that you are only 14 and
>>>owning a business.
>>
>>mm...i generally have found few problems with any such
>>circumstance.
>
>I can think of one large one right off the top of my head: A 14-year old
>cannot sign a legally binding contract. This is going to be a big one to
>overcome as far as the business aspect is concerned.

Um, parents? I bet they'd sign. I bet they're happy to see their kid
running a business. Very cool!

Consider that a 17 year-old wrote the O'Reilly Javascript book-- and it's
damn good. And guess what? He probably couldn't sign the contract.

There've been so many computer businesses started by 14 year-olds in
garages and dens. I wish I'd had my life together enough to run my own
business at 14. All the more power to any teen who does it!

........................................
molly wright steenson
writer, editor, web producer, girl wonder

pro woman. post grrl. maxi.
http://www.maximag.com

estrogen-powered web network. estronet.
http://www.estronet.com
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:15:47 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo

Hi Chris,

Experienced similar frustrations in the past - and threw in the towel since
the Mac IE4 was classed as beta. The only solution I can think of (barring
separate versions of course) is to link to different stylesheets. e.g. the
other browsers seemed to have the similar layout that you had planned
(though any notion of absolute pixel layout control is a bit of a misnomer
when other platforms/browsers are introduced) so you could have two .css
files.

HTHs,

At 09:13 AM 2/3/98 +0800, Chris McLay wrote:
>Several people have made suggestions, but we have not got anything to work
>"better" then the existing situation shown on the example page
>http://www.eycon.com.au/ie4problem/.
>
>The only solution we have that "works" is to create two versions of the
>site, one using standard HTML for pre-CSS browsers and the other using only
>CSS. This is unacceptable to me, as the amount of work in creating, testing
>and maintaining a primarily text based site is doubled. We haven't stopped
>looking yet, but its hard enough keeping a site together across so many
>systems, without having to deal with such obvious bugs as in Explorer 4.
>
>I have to admit this is the first time I have actually got angry with a
>browser manufacturer. While we have had lots of problems with compatibility
>in the past (on several sides) this is such an obvious bug and another
>example of Microsofts lack of support for the non-Windows based platforms.
>Perhaps the Office team should teach the Explorer team a few things!
>
>We are concidering placing a warning at the begining of our sites for
>Explorer 4 users, and suggesting if they have problems using the site they
>switch to another browser.
>
>Any thoughts on this???
>
>Chris
>
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
>
> Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
> managing director
> 3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
> Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
> Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
>___________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>
>

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 02:03:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: CSS Paragraphs

Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
<!--

Does anyone know of a way to override the extra paragraph space in a
style sheet?
If I use a para indent, I don't want a para space too, but I can't find
any way to get rid of it.
Is there a way of creating an indent independently of a paragraph <P> (ie
after a <BR>) or do I just stick to a run of  s

- -->

So far the only thing that works is a run of  s, housed within
self-designed DIV classes. P's don't mind their P's and Q's.

Both Netscape and Microsoft add vertical space to P's. Different amounts.

IE 4 and IE 3 differ from each other as well.

Setting MARGIN-TOP to "0" does not work, as it means something completely
different in Navigator 4, IE3, and IE4. (Yes: All three do something
different.)

Negative MARGIN-TOPS: same problem. Means something different in each
browser (not supported in IE3 anyway).

And left and right margins break in IE4 when used with P.

IE4 displays left and right margins when used in a non-standard
self-created DIV class.

Not when used in P's.

Microsoft has acknowledged the bug.

It IS a nice browser. If only it and Netscape would work properly.

Meanwhile, we do these silly things.

Jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"Slick and experimental, like all his work." - Mediadome

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #178
****************************

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