Babble v1 185

babble-digest Thursday, February 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 185

In this issue:
www.init2000.net SITE-CHECK..
Tables in tables in frames
Re: www.init2000.net SITE-CHECK..
Re: www.init2000.net SITE-CHECK..
Re: Tables in tables in frames
Re: all that newfangled web stuff (4.0 browsers)
RE: Flash stability...
CSS width element babble-digest V1 #184
Re: babble-digest V1 #184
department name
Legal contracts
Re: all that newfangled web stuff
"Amateur" Web Design Festival
Re: all that newfangled web stuff
The first unofficial Babble Archive
Re: The first unofficial Babble Archive
openscape and standards
openscape and standards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:09:36 EET
From: "Kimba #." <kgranlun@yrkes.syi.fi>
Subject: www.init2000.net SITE-CHECK..

Hi babbliers..

Just launched a site, in swedish..
But check the design & layout..
Loading time is'nt that important.. It will be used to 90% over the
intranet..

http://www.init2000.net

Thanks!

- --
Kim Granlund
_______________
http://thor.syi.fi/~kgranlun
http://thor.syi.fi/~kgranlun/webcam
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:12:20 -0200 (GMT)
From: Rushton Clive <swimagic@hol.gr>
Subject: Tables in tables in frames

I think I can't see the wood for the trees.

I have borderless tables nested inside borderless frames with scrolling=auto
or =no.
When I click inside the tables a one pixel border appears. Clicking another
frame disappears the first border and appears another. Clicking the main
frame disappears the first border but does not appear another. I've compared
my code to sites where the border does not appear and I can't see where I'm
screwing up.

I know it's all to do with the one-liner in my sig!

Any suggestions?

ink2info EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATIONS
- ----------------------------------------------------
Web site design - Copywriting - Critique
Clive Rushton, All rights reserved.
clive@lactate.com : swimagic@hol.gr
"Computers don't do what you want them to do; they only do what you tell
them to do"

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:15:52 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: www.init2000.net SITE-CHECK..

In message <7634DA16B7D@yrkes.syi.fi>, "Kimba #."
<kgranlun@yrkes.syi.fi> writes
>Hi babbliers..
>
>Just launched a site, in swedish..
>But check the design & layout..
>Loading time is'nt that important.. It will be used to 90% over the
>intranet..
menus aplenty missing in 640 400. which may not be a problem if you can
guarantee screen res. but if not, you're in trouble.

>http://www.init2000.net

liked the retro-ish feel generally, some of the graphic header alignments were
out...

pkf
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk
[my other sig is a ferrari]
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:48:26 EET
From: "Kimba #." <kgranlun@yrkes.syi.fi>
Subject: Re: www.init2000.net SITE-CHECK..

> menus aplenty missing in 640 400. which may not be a problem if you can
> guarantee screen res. but if not, you're in trouble.
This is indeed planed in advance.. minimi res on the intra is
800*600.. Maximi is at 1600*1200.. So we're on the safe side with
that yes..

> >http://www.init2000.net
> liked the retro-ish feel generally, some of the graphic header alignments were
> out...

align="left", "right" and "center" are all used.. just to point out
the whole message of them.. (Swedish..) sorry..

Thanks for you interest and time! (All of ya!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:38:11 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Tables in tables in frames

>From my experience about the best you can do is set FRAMESPACING to zero
for all your frames, as well as BORDERS. NS3 Mac will still display this
selection border, but other than that (I believe) they should go away.

- - Porter

At 02:12 PM 2/5/98 -0200, Rushton Clive wrote:
[snip]
>I have borderless tables nested inside borderless frames with scrolling=auto
>or =no.
>When I click inside the tables a one pixel border appears. Clicking another
>frame disappears the first border and appears another. Clicking the main
>frame disappears the first border but does not appear another. I've compared
>my code to sites where the border does not appear and I can't see where I'm
>screwing up.
[snip]

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:56:01 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <larthur@dbtinc.com>
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff (4.0 browsers)

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 02:00:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff (4.0 browsers)

> lance arthur's glassdog v.7 at http://www.glassdog.com uses 4.0
features
> exclusively.
> in fact, you can't enter the site without a 4.0 browser. (!)

> posted to this list earlier tonight). lance arthur's audience is
different
> (it's people like us), so he takes a more aggressive approach -- not
that
> i'm speaking for him.

Me speaking:
You *can* get into the site with version 3 browsers, it simply works
differently.

Initially, it is true, version 3 browsers couldn't use the site. They
could launch the interface but the navigation - because it's doing a
number of JavaScripted actions - wouldn't react unless your browser
recognized OnClick. I've since revised the navigation to use browser
version detection and it loads a Version3 version over the "normal" one.
Once in, version3 browsers will see the content "uncoolified" because
it's relying almost exclusively on CSS. I removed the <FONT> tag so the
text in unaffected without MSIE3, MSIE4 or NS4.

Before anyone says how stupid that is, the reason I did it is because I
want people to upgrade. By continuing to back-pedal code, users have no
reason to upgrade. What does it gain them? Well, I wanted to show them
what it gains them. Primarily, in my book, that means CSS (until DHTML
gets more standardized) and JevaScript functionality. CSS allows many
text-based formatting effects that *do* work cross-browser using a
single code. I do *not* have separate sites for separate browsers. I
realized going in that *requiring* anyone to upgrade won't work. If you
tell someone they can't get in, chances are they won't want to. There
are plenty of other places to go. Rather, I'm teasing them. I'm showing
them the content and the site, but they don't get everything. I leave
reminders all over that they are not using a version 4 browser so the
page they're looking at doesn't format correctly.

As Jeffrey pointed out, the audience at the 'dog is used to being pushed
around. Most of them have already upgraded. I know how to insert a STYLE
instruction inside a FONT tag to make it more cross-version compatible.
I simply didn't want to anymore. CSS, even with the Netscape partial
implementation and the differences between how Netscape and Microsoft
interpret parts of it, gives us so many more options regarding page
appearence, and you don't use graphics to attain text effects.
Consequently, the download time falls dramatically and you're able to
position your elements the way you want them - within limits. But I want
CSS broadly supported, I want the standards adhered to, I want Netscape
to know they can't dick around with this. So I'm going to start using it
so, hopefully, others will too and we can stop worrying about one less
backwards formatting problem.

Lance
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:42:54 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Flash stability...

> I have been following the Gabo/Flash thread on a number of lists.
> Besides the fact that some people loved the site and others hated it, I
> noticed something interesting regarding how, and even if, various people
> connected to it.
>
> People were going with Macs and Wintels with a variety of RAM
> configurations. Some people stopped by with 28.8s and 33.6s and
> connected with no problem whatsoever, and had the gabocorp site load
> up quite quickly. Others visited via isdn and T1s and had to wait
forever.
>
> There was a lot of commentary on how it loaded including some serious
> negativity about 'graphics-heavy sites that need plug-ins'. MAYBE, just
> maybe, it wasn't the site itself, but how the Internet itself was
> functioning at the time people visited, and especially how each
> individual person had their computer/browsers configured.

Well, I tried to connect to the site for three or four days in a row at
different times of day, with the exact same hardware/software setup each
time. Each time I got bupkiss when I tried to get past the first page
until just recently, and haven't had a single problem since. To be fair,
I've heard some scuttlebut about the 'Net being out of whack lately, but I
still think it was the site's problem, given the nature of the errors I
got (javascript, server returned invalid response, etc.; I'm behind a
firewall, so I couldn't ping or tracert to double check my conclusion).

> And if, that is the case, consider this, even the thinnest, lightest,
> most simple sites could be and sometimes are problematic. Just food for
> thought...

Absolutely. But more complicated = more lines of code (yours or the
plug-in's or whoevers) = more places for bugs to exist = more bugs. At
least, that's what my experience has been. Anything above HTML 2 or so is
a risk, albeit a small one for features supported in HTML 3.2.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Designer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:23:37 -0800
From: Todd Fahrner <fahrner@pobox.com>
Subject: CSS width element babble-digest V1 #184

Thus spake Struan:

> does anyone know how to get IE4 to accept the width
> element in relation to text as
>
> P {width: 300px;}
>
> won't work in IE4 but it does in NN4. to be fair the last time i looked
> at the w3c specs they were a bit hazy on whether the width element was
> meant to be implemented for text.

It should work for any element, but doesn't in IE4. This is one of the few
bits of CSS that NN4 implements that WinIE4 doesn't.

A workaround is to replace the <p> with a <div>, or wrap one or more <p>s
in a <div>, and set the width on the <div>. Works in both 4.0 browsers.

__________________
Todd Fahrner
mailto:fahrner@pobox.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 08:45:31 -0700
From: "Matt Hickerson" <matt@inherent.com>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #184

>Once had a buddy who wanted to trademark a logo & name. He simply placed
the logo and name on an envelope, mailed it to his business/himself. He
said this would hold up in court as "legal" evidence that he was using
the
"trademark" as of a certain date (as the US Post Office will date stamp
all
mail).

I'm no lawyer, but I do believe there is some fact in what he did.
There's something about having something in commerce (which he did -
mail), which offers some amount of protection. But if you have a
dispute with someone like Microsoft (with an ARMY of lawyers and
financial resources) over the logo and name, who do you think will win?

If it's something important, spend the money, hire and intellectual
property lawyer. Do it right.

PS I've done what he's done - certified mail to myself. I've never had
to dispute anything, but it's nice to know I can go to court and prove
that I was using something at a certain date. Maybe the other guy
can't.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:35:17 -0800
From: Suzanne <Suzanne@KickassDesign.com>
Subject: department name

>A designer husband? Gee, you can buy those now? The times we live in...

Yes, and lemme tell you--you pay, you PAY!

Actually, it's kind of fun sharing my life with another designer. Who else
would also constantly mutter, "I hate computers#$%!!" while at the same
time fighting for any opportunity to upgrade or fix something on my Mac.
And who else would experience life as an on-going silent critique of other
peoples' typography? It's been pretty amazing living with someone whose
mind works in the same warped ways as my own.

Suz

Suzanne Stephens
_________________________________________________________
Stephens Design, 541-535-4699 http://www.KickassDesign.com
CyberCircus Grand Prize Winners http://www.thecybercircus.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:35:21 -0800
From: Suzanne <Suzanne@KickassDesign.com>
Subject: Legal contracts

Kristopher wrote:
>
>I'm attempting to set-up my first contract for freelance web design, and was
>just wondering if any of the veterans out there have any advice.
>
>What should it contain in the hopes to avoid being "screwed" later on? What
>makes it legally binding?
>

I have some resources for contracts & legal info on my site at:
http://www.wpdfd.com/wpdres.htm

Attorney Ivan Hoffman, whose URL is listed on my site, now offers a Web
design contract for sale.

Also, I highly recommend purchasing the Graphic Artists Guilds Handbook of
Pricing and Ethical Guidelines (www.gag.org). It is an essential guide to
business practices and includes sample contracts. It is available at GAG's
web site, Barnes & Noble, and many art supply stores.

Suz

Suzanne Stephens
_________________________________________________________
Stephens Design, 541-535-4699 http://www.KickassDesign.com
CyberCircus Grand Prize Winners http://www.thecybercircus.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 12:30:23 -0500
From: Jay Luker <jay@andover.net>
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff

Jeffrey Zeldman wrote:

> my two sites above also use 4.0 techniques but in a much more
conservative
> way; ie., both sites are "double coded" (sounds like a chocolate bar)
so as
> to display well in older browsers.
>
> the 4.0 features at furbo and zeldman.com are mainly css 1 and css 2,
a
> bitch given current browsers' reproductive faults (excuse the
expression);
> mouseouts (unfortunately, IE only); and newer rollover techniques (see
for
> instance the "disappearing rollovers" on the zeldman.com core page).
>
> again, visitors with older browsers won't know what they're missing.
>
> the double-coding to accommodate older browsers is based on the needs
of
> these sites' audiences (and the current dominance of 3.0 browsers, as
> posted to this list earlier tonight). lance arthur's audience is
different
> (it's people like us), so he takes a more aggressive approach -- not
that
> i'm speaking for him.

Yeah, yeah, but I think you're ignoring the point of jason kottke's
original post:

> i keep asking myself, "i need to
> set up a stylesheet and specify all these objects and code this
page-long
> javascript just to get this little bit of information across to my
viewer?
> i must be crazy to be doing all that. the technology and the end
result is
> cool, but..."
>
> eventually, there's a point at which the new features are not worth
the
> trouble and people are just not going to worry about them.
>
This very much echoes my own feelings about some of the newer web
authoring techniques. I have trouble
believing that, once you get past the "neato factor," any of this stuff
is worth my time. IMO the sites that
use these techniques can usually be divided into two main
categories:Type #1 - ego-broadcast sites, in which
authors find newer and more technically complicated ways to say "Welcome
To My Homepage!", and
Type #2 - resource sites that are designed to show people how to
construct site type #1.

The majority of instances that I have seen CSS and DHTML justifiably
implemented occurred on sites that
were devoted to the implementation of CSS and DHTML. In other words, it
just seems like more of the sort of
"navel-gazing" that the wired community is generally guilty of.

I'm responsible for the design and construction of a network of tech
sites that sees a fairly high volume of
traffic (sort of a c|net wannabe). A couple of the sites have undergone
(or are undergoing) a redesign, and
I've tried like hell to find practical implementations of style
sheets/dhtml that would add to the "value"
of the pages, yet degrade gracefully. Guess what? It ain't worth it. Not
only does Joe Surfer not care
whether your paragraphs are indented with non-breaking spaces, a 30
pixel wide invisible GIF, or the
{text-indent: 16pt attribute}, he doesn't give a shit if they're
indented at all.

How many professional developers out there are finding ways to use the
new technologies in your CLIENTS
projects? I'm not talking about your personal projects, and I'm not
talking about silly rollovers. Have you
found ways to ease navigation and enhance your content that are worth
the effort involved in learning,
cross-browser programming, testing, etc?

As if I haven't already given you enough to flame me about, I just can't
resist inserting a shameless link
to a silly little side-project of mine that you might get a kick out of:

http://www.whowouldyoukill.com. Relieve some stress - kill a TV
character.

- --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:39:04 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <larthur@dbtinc.com>
Subject: "Amateur" Web Design Festival

I wanted to pass along a URL for a contest taking place. Bunim/Murray
Productions, the people who foisted on our unknowing culture
consciousness MTV's "The Real World" and "Road Rules" is holding an
"Amateur" (I'll explain the quotes momentarily) Web Design contest. They
want self-contained (no links to anything outside) projects that occupy
less than 2Mb total disk space. I'll let you discover the other rules
for yourself at the site if you're interested.

I put quotes around "Amateur" because it appears that you can be a
professional designer and still enter. What they mean is that the
project must be non-commercial in nature. There's prizes and probably
big exposure potential and it's got some big-name co-sponsors. I'm
assuming the rules about no outside links, no CGI, etc, mean that
they're going to package all the best entries up and sell a CD-ROM'd
book or something. That way all the end user does is open their browser,
stick in the CD-ROM and not worry about downloads and Net access. I say
that's my assumption because I don't know. Anyway, for those who want
more info:

http://www.bunim-murray.com/awp/index.htm

Deadline is April 30th.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 14:14:44 -0500
From: Carl Jabido <case@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff

>Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:32:20 +0200
>From: andrey <andrey@bwc.org>
>Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff
>
>
>i dont know how cool it is, you are to judge, but here is the site i
>made for the Bryce contest, works for Netscape 4.0n. Might be worth of a
>look... It will be interesting to hear what you guys think about it.
>
>http://www.falkondesign.com/BryceContest
>

do you have some kinda script to determine the width of a monitor
and then make a new window? to fill it? because on my 3 monitor
mac, i got a window that spanned all 3 monitors! kinda cool!

carl
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:32:55 -0800
From: kvz@juno.com (Keith D Van Zile)
Subject: The first unofficial Babble Archive

The first unofficial Babble Archive can be referenced at:

http://geocities.datacellar.net/SiliconValley/Lab/8542

Regards,

Keith

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:34:45 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: The first unofficial Babble Archive

Keith,

What a great service you have provided! thanks a great deal... it would nice
to have this archive in the future...

Jorge
- -----Original Message-----
From: Keith D Van Zile <kvz@juno.com>
To: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 12:36 PM
Subject: The first unofficial Babble Archive

>The first unofficial Babble Archive can be referenced at:
>
>http://geocities.datacellar.net/SiliconValley/Lab/8542
>
>Regards,
>
>Keith
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 01:31:17 +0000
From: Struan donald <sdonald@lineone.net>
Subject: openscape and standards

the whole openscape thing may well be a very good thing if it's done
right. the best example of how this sort of thing can work is linux. it
all relies on good organisation and also netscape being upfront and
helping the people who want to make use of the code. and also people
wanting to help netscape but given the anyone but microsoft spirit out
there...

think of it as beta testing taken to it's logical extreme. users find
the bugs, fix them and post the results back.

Struan Donald
sdonald@lineone.net

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #185
****************************

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