Babble v1 79

babble-digest Tuesday, December 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 079

In this issue:
RE: technical possible?
Re: babble-digest V1 #74
javascript code showing in n2 & n3??
Re: ADMIN: Compiling a Babble FAQ
Re: Rollovers: "threat or menace?"
Re: technical possible?
Animated GIF problems
More bloody rollovers! (sorry)
Rollovers: The Definitive Example
rollovers across frames

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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:53:55 -0600 (CST)
From: ashley@giant.net
Subject: RE: technical possible?

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Kam Stewart wrote:

>
> > If a real button in, say, my car reacted to my finger being nearby,
> > then I'd run screaming.
>
> No, you wouldn't. When people walk through Bill Gates' home, they are
> followed by music and the lights in the rooms turn on, and off again after
> they leave. (as well as the homes of a few other well off indviduals who
> have some extra cash burning holes in their pockets)
>
> Amazingly, there haven't yet been any media reports of screaming visitors,
> but hey, I don't read the Enquirer enough.

I think the difference in your analogy must be considered. Walking
through a (presumably) large house where lights turn on and off due to
proximity is differeent than the car. In all likeliehood activating any
device in such a cramped environment may trigger an unwanted response
(ie: turning on the heater when reaching for the radio.)

<Snip>

> We do have to take the expected user audience into account, and design to
> meet their needs. If we're talking nomads on the Serengeti, without access
> to tv, then this might be an issue. But, then there would be much greater
> issues here anyway.

See below.

> My point is cyber-space allows a lot of things that don't necessarily map
> directly to the real world. But then again, it can't match a much greater
> number of others that the real world can. --We still can't smell on our
> computers, though I predict this limitation will pass in fifteen years max.
> A gov. proposal to fund medical research in this area failed to pass this
> year, but it will eventually.

I think reality based interfaces are best. Even if there is no real world
analogy, it will take a successful metaphor (more than likely based on
shared human experience) for successful communication and design. My
understanding is that intuition plays a big part in communication in
unfamiliar environemnts, and I think the web is still in that phase. Your
point about the Serengetti tribesman is interesting. I wonder how long it
would take him to figure out how to navigate a website. Its an unfamiliar
environment and like all unfamiliar environements, will be adapted to in
time. But it does take time to figure out what works best. What sort of
metaphor would be best for him? A book like layout? A navigation schema
based on the LOndon Underground? Subjects by geographical representation?
Language/symbols or even a sound reaction system. Something else?

<snip>

> When does this reflect reality? does your car do this? When something is
> greyed out, I probably won't roll over it to find out. It tells me that
> this is not a possible option at this time. It is only when it appears
> active, that I will check.

I always liked greyed out buttons inasmuch as they "receded" into the
background allowing me to focus on the content. When I needed to change
things a highlighted result indicated action and grabbed my attention.
Seemed to accomplish a need for a minmally intrusive interface. Am I
missing something here? I know I am not a "designer" or "artist" in the
traditional sense. It may not be the best interface, (I personally would
love a real voice activated system) but I value function more than style
anyday.

A nice thread I hope generates more interest.

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:36:20 -0800
From: "Andrew O'Connor" <ajoc@transport.com>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #74

Date:12/15/97
From:ajoc @transport.com
Re: the most horrible logo in history

Is client coachable? If so, show client some examples of logos that
clearly work well and explain why they work. You might offer a more
effective design. I would suggest you appeal to clients bottom line fears.
Relate everything the company can loose $ as a direct result of using a
poor logo ID. If he's not coachable, you might want to pass on the project.

> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:47:33 +1000
> From: esoweb <esoweb@one.net.au>
> Subject: Subverting company design
>
> My latest client has the most horrible logo in history. I mean really,
> really bad - it was designed for a t-shirt!
> Most of my problem lies in the fact that it just does not translate to
> the web...ok so most of my problem lies in the fact that it is just
> plain ugly.
>
> Anyway, what does one do in this situation? How can such a design be
> subverted? Do I use the logo in the full awareness that it will detract
> from the rest of the site? Do I bypass it altogether, and use my own
> logo? Any ideas, suggestions, experiences?
>
>
> | Toby Hede
> | Designer/Programmer
>
> | esoweb
> | => web design & development
>
> | http://www2.one.net.au/~esoweb/
>
> -
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:43:04 +1300
From: Mark Zeman <zeman@morse.co.nz>
Subject: javascript code showing in n2 & n3??

Hi all,

Just implemented a simple random image javascript - works fine in all
browsers but in n2 & n3 the javascript code appears under the cell and
shoots off across the page, seems like a browser rendering error or
something to do with returns & spaces (at a guess??)

Anyone come across this problem and have a solution ??? - before I lose all
faith in all browser technology and give up writing pages that work in 6+
browser combinations !!

Cheers,
Mark Zeman

Director/Designer

........

Morse Media - design for new media
http://www.morse.co.nz

ph 64 4 499 2505
fax 64 4 499 2504

PGP fingerprint: 91E0 691A 32C4 66D9 C46A 2088 7981 6FD8 2671 73CE

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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:25:23 -0500
From: "Crowl" <artworks@ezo.net>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Compiling a Babble FAQ

My nomination for Newsgroup post of the Month.

Thanks Andy, you the man!

- ----------
> From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
> To: babble@highfive.com
> Subject: ADMIN: Compiling a Babble FAQ
> Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 6:36 PM
>
> Hello all,
>
> In the interest of reducing the number of repeat questions that seem to
be
> cropping up on the list, I have volunteered to compile a FAQ (Frequently
> Asked Questions) for us.
>
> If you have any questions that you think should be addressed in the
Babble
> FAQ please address them to me with the subject line, "BabbleFAQ," or, if
> your mail reader supports embedded links, just use this link:
> mailto:pglendinning@cen.com?subject=BabbleFAQ
>
> (Thx, Ben, for the link idea.)
>
> Rest assured that at the very top of the list are all the different
> permutations of, "How do I make images X, Y and/or Z change when I move
the
> mouse over this link?"
>
> - Porter
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
> WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg
>
> [This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
> [ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
> [ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:31:02 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: Rollovers: "threat or menace?"

What is a paintbrush?
It depends on who is painting.

What is a Rollover? A tool.

Like all tools, it is sometimes used by artists, oftentimes by craftsmen,
and all too frequently by drunken day-laborers.

Let us not blame the tool for the work done with it.
And let us not be drunken day-laborers.

Remember frames? At first, they were poorly implemented, but that didn't
stop everyone from using them. There were frames on top of frames on top of
frames -- it was an orgy, and not of the beautiful.

Frames have never recovered. Though they are often brilliantly used, they
still get a bad rap -- though not among sophisticated people like
ourselves. Heh.

Every new technique has spawned a frenzy of imitation followed by a
backlash. I'm surprised that the anti-Rollover backlash (if that's what
this is) has taken so long.

We can avoid the frenzy *and* the backlash, if we want to.

If we use what is needed to convey emotions and concepts to a given
audience, we are probably doing well, and nothing is forbidden. That's my
tragically limited viewpoint, and I'm sticking with it for today.

Nice to have the adults back on the list.

Jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"A genius with too much time on his hands." -- Magellan, 4 Stars

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:34:10 -0800
From: Ben Curtis <quixote@wenet.net>
Subject: Re: technical possible?

Those that have posted disagreeing with my original rant, please reread my
posting. I think you'll find we are actually agreeing on nearly everything
except when my words are taken out of context.

One mistake I want to admit up front is in using the word "press" instead of
"click." I should have written

>-- isn't it [a button] supposed to look like something you click?

Many people have taken my word-choice of "press" to mean I advocate buttons
that look like buttons from reality -- usually rendered in horribly bevelled,
shiny, candy-like plastic looking blobs. Bleh. If it's clickable, I just
want their purpose to be clear: action and destination clearly revealed so
that I know what I'm doing there. The buttons on the top of the browsers look
flat and dull in color, and then become bevelled and brilliant when the mouse
goes over them. But why would I put the mouse over them if I didn't already
think of them as buttons? So why the bevelling? If the only answer is
"legacy interface design," then rethink. As web designers, we don't have and
shouldn't rely on legacy thought from our users.

For example, Kam Stewart brought up how useful a glowing, reactive control
panel would be while driving a car at night. You're right -- I'd pay a lot
extra for that feature because that always bugs me. But in the web, we
control (to continue the analogy) whether it is day or night. Many designers
that use the rollover effect dumb down or hobble their sites so that the
rollover is effective, essentially forcing "night" so we can admire the glow.
For a while there (earlier this year), practically all artistic and tech-savvy
sites had blurred letters that became crisp and readable when the mouse passed
over. Very cool effect, but it meant you could never view more than one
link's title at a time, and you could not do it without moving the mouse.

Which means I had to put my Coke down. ;)

I love all things mousy. MouseOver, MouseOut, MouseUp, MouseDown, and
onClick return false. My major beef with rollovers is not their existance,
but rather an individual rollover's existance regardless of evidence of its
hindering the user. Most just seem to fall into one of these catagories:
a) fluff, not adding any info or emotion at all, or
b) flashy, being of such marginal use that the rest of the site
needs to be dumbed down in order strike the contrast required
to appreciate the rollover, or
c) restrictive, hiding more information than it provides so that
in contrast its "providing" information seems useful. Could
the information have been there all along?

Which leads me to Ben's #1 Law of Interface Design: all information
required to make a useful and satisfactory decision should be visible when the
decision needs to be made.

List of things that typically conceal the needed information:
1) time -- user was exposed to it too long ago
2) space -- scrolling to figure out whether to click aint ever good
3) secrets -- poorly designed rollovers hiding more than they reveal or
distracting the user from something useful

The absolute, hands-down, fool proof way to make me excited about a site has
little to do with typography or graphics or interaction, and everything to do
with how much plain old good thoughtful consideration went into its
production. Gimme an intelligent site any day over anything flash.

This is a fun and useful thread. I think I'll sit back and watch now.

~~
__________qp_______________________________________________________

Ben Curtis "A thought
once put to words,
mailto:quixote@wenet.net loses its true essence.
http://www.wenet.net/~quixote But what else can we do?"
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:26:15 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Animated GIF problems

Hello All,

Recently there was discussion about the speed of animated GIFs differing
for the different browsers. I have a different problem.

We have this animated logo which works fine on Mac and PC platforms in
Netscape; and if fine with MSIE 3 & 4 on PC, but in MSIE 4 for Mac, the
bird was black. This GIF was created using Microsoft's GIFanimator.

So we created another animated GIF using a Mac, and GIFBuilder - the
colours are fine, but now the animated GIF doesn't refresh, remaining on
the first frame as visitors browse the site.

We do not want the GIF to loop, but that is the only way to get it to work
for all platforms and browsers. In the meantime, we are sticking with the
correctly coloured GIF, non-looping - as I said that I'd ask this list if
it is a documented (or undocumented ;) feature.

There is a separate page set up for you to see the two GIFs, if you have IE
4 on Macs.

http://www.celcom.com.my/babble.html

Thanks in advance,

Gary.

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
- -----------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:42:50 +1000
From: esoweb <esoweb@one.net.au>
Subject: More bloody rollovers! (sorry)

Ok,
Now that rollovers have been deemed as possibly suspect elements of
design, I have an embarrasing problem.
As if rolling images wasn't enough, I need to make text change color
upon rollover. I can get it to work fine in IE4 (accessing the
style.color tag of my link) but I am having trouble in Communicator.

- --
| Toby Hede
| Designer/Programmer

| esoweb
| => web design & development

| http://www2.one.net.au/~esoweb/

- --------------------------------------
It is better to be inspired than wired
- --------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:30:05 +0200
From: Hanan Cohen <hananc@bashan.co.il>
Subject: Rollovers: The Definitive Example

We are sent to a site (http://www.BennettGold.ca) with un-linked
underlined text.
GREAT !!!

Hanan Cohen
Bashan Systems - Jerusalem
***Love and Peace***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:03:38 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: rollovers across frames

Help.

I'm having problems with some rollovers that are intended to do two
things:
1) create an image swap with the gif you roll over.
2) pop up text (a gif image of text) that define the links.

The challenge here is in traversing frames. By viewing:

http://www.abmworldlink.com

you will notice that I'm attempting to swap the secondary images from
the rollover in one frame to a different frame. And it so happens that
this goes up through the parent frameset and down through a nested
frameset (named "main") to the "column" frame. I realize the offending
script lies in the third line of these two functions but I don't know
what to do with it. Anyone know about this sort of thing?

function imgAct(imgName) {
if (document.images) {
document[imgName].src = eval(imgName + "off.src");
parent.main.column.document["holder"].src=eval(imgName + "ad.src");
}
}

function imgInact(imgName) {
if (document.images) {
document[imgName].src = eval(imgName + "on.src");
parent.main.column.document["holder"].src= "blank.gif";
}

This script, by the way, is straight from Nick Heinle's book, "Designing
with Javascript". Unfortunatley he doesn't get into the nuances of
interframe communication.

Thanks in advance.

Erik
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End of babble-digest V1 #79
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