Babble v1 80

babble-digest Tuesday, December 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 080

In this issue:
alwaysRaised--not!
Photoshop effect on Websafe colours
Picture icons on web browsers
rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!
Re: technical possible? (rollovers...sigh)
Re: different speed on Win and Mac
Re: Rollovers: The Definitive Example
TECH: Frame navigation
Honda rollovers
Re: rollovers across frames
re: Using rollovers...why?
TECH: Re: rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!
Re: Picture icons on web browsers
Whoops! Mea Culpa
Re: different speed on Win and Mac
How IE drives me nuts. WAS: Picture icons on web browsers
Re: different speed on Win and Mac
Re: technical possible? (rollovers...sigh)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:32:29 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: alwaysRaised--not!

I understand that Nav4 allows one to create a pop-up window that is
"always on top." This is done, apparently, by adding
**alwaysRaised=yes** to the window opening code like so:

function openWindow() {
popupWin = window.open('http://www.xyz.com/', 'remote',
'status,resizable,alwaysRaised=yes,width=100,height=250')
}

// done hiding -->
</script>

It doesn't seem to work though. If I click on the opener window the
pop-up window still drops behind the main window. Anyone else have the
same problem?

Erik
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:00:28 +0100
From: "David P. Leader" <d.leader@bio.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Photoshop effect on Websafe colours

I'm not sure this answer is to the question posed, but if you are working
with your own reduced colour palette of web-safe colours in RGB and then
change to indexed colour in Photoshop it does change their values (Siegel
mentions it in his Killer Websites book.) There is now a quick fix with the
free Web Clipper plugin from Boxtop Software. Can't find the actual page
any more, but the url of their site is:

http://www.boxtopsoft.com/

The Mac plugin certainly works a treat. Don't know if it is available for
Windows.

David

[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:08:56 +0100
From: "David P. Leader" <d.leader@bio.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Picture icons on web browsers

Siegel has some example sites where text or a picture slowly comes into
view from through the background using a simple animated gif, the starting
colour of which is the background. Others must have used this too. Does
anyone else object to the way that Internet Explorer ruins this effect by
the way it loads pictures and readjusts the page as it does so. Now
Netscape, which used to leave the area of the page at the background colour
until the picture filled down, now shows a tacky generic picture icon first.

I must say I find this ugly on any page, even if you're not trying a clever
effect. I've never heard anyone else complain, though. Am I supersensitive
or what?

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:18:25 -0800
From: Jason Harris <meniscus@sirius.com>
Subject: rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!

Since I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about JS rollovers and
animated GIFs I thought I'd combine the two for my take on the subject.

I use a single rollover on my entrance page that invites the viewer to
continue. The "off" image is static and the "on" image is an animated
GIF that fades in (I always seem to go for the cinematic type effects).
My original script works great, but the animation doesn't preload. there
is a noticeable pause while the browser queries the server for the new
image. I think this might confuse some visitors.

I've recently found a simple script at http://www.webcoder.com that
solves the preload dilemma, but causes an interesting effect, mainly
that my animation doesn't animate anymore! when rolled over the static
"off" image flashes instantly to the last frame of the animated GIF
bypassing the whole animation. If there is a possible solution that
another babble subscriber has found, I'd love to hear it. I'd really
like to preload the images, but losing the effect isn't worth it.

BTW for viewing reference, here is the original:
http://www.sirius.com/~meniscus/index.html

and the funky one:
http://www.sirius.com/~meniscus/indexd.html

Jason Harris
Meniscus Interactive Design
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:57:36 +1100
From: daniel keating <keeto@netinfo.com.au>
Subject: Re: technical possible? (rollovers...sigh)

to those not following the debate till now

Ben Curtis wrote;

> What I find horribly under discussed in this arena, for example, is
> "Why rollover?" Is it popular because its fun for the designers to
> make or envision, or is it popular because it serves a use?

and Toby Hede wrote;

> Perhaps in keeping with the standards set by computer interfaces in
> general, the rollover is just one of those codes of interaction lost
> in time...but so ubiqitous in presence that they cannot be avoided.

and so on...

I agree in part with Ben there is a very good reason for not using
rollovers so much if at all. They are boring, passe, yesterdays news,
old hat. Although as Toby pointed out they are used widely in operating
systems and in functional programs such as your web browser you
virtually never see your basic rollover in a computer game (which is
inherently trying to be as fun as possible). At the moment people might
find the rollover 'fun' but not once it becomes expected.

As designers we should try to innovate, to subvert the tools people give
us, to produce new effects and looks by finding new ways of doing
things. Even for representing the most dry and boring information there
are more appropriate ways to give interaction. I think that a move to a
more interactive and dynamic form of navigation such as in computer
games is called for. To see my stab a producing an example of this check
out my personal (highly experimental) website at
http://www.netinfo.com.au/~keeto then email me back if you would like to
ask anything.

daniel keating:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:19:57 +1100
From: daniel keating <keeto@netinfo.com.au>
Subject: Re: different speed on Win and Mac

Animation should display the same on a PowerMac and on an Pentium MMX.
Which is why Apple initially sued Intel for allegedly using the same
chip instructions on its MMX chip standard. One reason it may display
slower on a mac is because Internet Explorer has been programmed by
programmers used to programming for Windows95 (the same reason Photoshop
runs faster on a mac) however Netscape should run at the same speed
regardless.

As for Java I have problems with Apples' Virtual Machine but the fastest
operating system for Java is Sun (of course) but the major speed
increase for java, regardless of what operating system, is having a JIT
(just in time) compiler as part of your browser which changes the Java
to C++ on the fly (just after downloading) which then makes the Applet
run faster. Version 3.04 of netscape has this and both IE 4 and Netscape
4 should have this.

daniel keating:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:41:13 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Re: Rollovers: The Definitive Example

>Check this: <http://www.BennettGold.ca/> and click through any of the
>image links.

The rollovers ARE coded quite well, however, they did something that REALLY
grates on my nerves. Go to the Introduction page and roll back and forth on
and off the Partners, Webtrust, and Resources buttons. The text for those
buttons is positioned one or two pixel higher than the text for the
Introduction button. Jumping text, AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!! The other buttons
don't seem to have this problem. And how simple is that to avoid,
particularly in Photoshop (just select the layer, cut, and paste it back
in, it's automatically centered). Otherwise, quite good. Pardon my nitpicking.

Pat Flanagan Publishing & Design
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281
email: pfpd@pfpd.com -- website: http://www.pfpd.com
competitive business advantages through creative technology
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:41:10 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: TECH: Frame navigation

I am using the following code for frame navigation:

I want the image - when clicked - to go back in the main frame(named
fraMain). I have another frame (named fraHelp) and its contents change
frequently. When I click the image, I get the same result as

<a href="JavaScript:parent.history.back();"

i.e. same as clicking the "back" button of the browser - and this goes
backwards in the history of the most recently changed frame (in this case
fraHelp) and not the frame I want to go backwards in.

I must be missing something little/somewhere, but I can't spot it. Somebody
help :-(

| Yalçin Yilmaz
| yyilmaz@catapult.com.au
| http://www.catapult.com.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:45:36 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Honda rollovers

>Many are saying they will not put critical information inside a swapped
image.
> I would like to ask them their opinion on this site:
>
>http://www.honda.com/cars/index.html
>
>To explore what I mean, go to this page, pick a car, then select "Color Your
>Car." This is one of the first good uses of the rollover affect that I've
>seen. But the question remains, is this good design? Is it good web design,
>especially for a corporation, to exclude anyone even for something so cool?

This is a very good use of rollovers in theory, however, IMHO, they
executed it wrong. If you look at the images being swapped, you'll see that
they consist of the entire car, the words "Accord Coupe," the name of the
color, and the background behind the car. "Accord Coupe" and the background
never change, they should not be part of the rolled over images. These
should have been cut up, and only the car and the color name should have
been switched. This would have resulted in less bandwidth consumption.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:48:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Porter Glendinning <ag@cen.com>
Subject: Re: rollovers across frames

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Erik Kittlaus wrote:
> Help.
>
> I'm having problems with some rollovers that are intended to do two
> things:
> 1) create an image swap with the gif you roll over.
> 2) pop up text (a gif image of text) that define the links.
>
> The challenge here is in traversing frames. By viewing:
>
> http://www.abmworldlink.com
>
> you will notice that I'm attempting to swap the secondary images from
> the rollover in one frame to a different frame.
[snip]

Erik,

The image that you're wanting to swap to in the "column" frame isn't
named. If you add the name "holder," which your swap functions reference,
to its IMG tag you should be OK.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:54:10 -0500
From: Shelby <srogers@worldweb.net>
Subject: re: Using rollovers...why?

At 07:23 PM 12/15/97 -0600, you wrote:
>OK, which is worse: over-used rollovers or over-used 3-D buttons?

Can I tell a story? OK. Maybe I'm just repeating sentiments, but oh well.
One of the top-level management folks at the company I currently work for
was told to take a look at a site right before it goes live
<http://hairbear.worldweb.net/health/top.html>. He goes to the homepage,
which has an interactive menu. You get the glow effect, and a little icon
pops up above the whole menu. (please don't comment on the image to the
left of the menu, I take no responsibility!)

The guy said he didn't "know where to click" because he didn't "see any
buttons." And I thought, this guy is the *highest-level exec in the
company* and (other evil thoughts aside) he can't even tell where to click
on an interactive menu???

Well, it turned out that the only sites he had ever been to had like 20
buttons down the left side of the screen. I had to show him 10 other
related sites where buttons weren't used to get him to admit that he had
only been to five websites in his whole life. When I showed him what
happened when you rolled over a menu option, he asked why it was doing
that. Argh! I basically had to get all *futuristic* on him and tell him
mouseovers were the wave of the future to get him to ok the site.

<rant>
As though the fact that the site isn't actually used to publish anything
(it is a publishing company after all) isn't enough to make it a 1995 site
being built in 1997.
</rant>

I guess that the experience taught me that in the sites I want to build for
audiences who are "cyber-savvy!" (as they say at this company - blech), I
can use mouseovers to my heart's content. I can do a lot of cool stuff. But
when we're talking about people who, say, use the AOL browser at home --
well, have you ever seen that first screen (the one after the 10 ads)? It's
like *20 buttons!*

>Sometimes a simple rollover is nice. Perhaps we are just seeing too many
>badly or uneccessarily implented rollovers that the meaning is lost.

I'd agree with that. I've been to pages where *4* things happen when you
roll over a link. I don't know if the creator thinks I'm totally clueless
or what, but really. Text appears in the status bar, the menu option glows,
another image appears next to it and then another image way off in the
right hand corner or something. That is definitely abuse. It runs my eye
all over the page because I see movement. Now I didn't go to RISD or
anything but that seems to me like bad design.

shelby rogers/web diva/dc webgrrl/person.html

Whatever you can do or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now.
-Goethe
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:07:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Porter Glendinning <ag@cen.com>
Subject: TECH: Re: rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!

This problem came up in a post a while back, I think. It seems that using
JS to preload a non-looping animated GIF causes that animation to go on
in the background, so by the time the mouseover happens the animation is
already finished. I'm not sure why JS would have this effect on GIF
animation, though.

One solution might be to preload the animation as the first image on the
page sized down to a single pixel. I've tried this, and the animation
still occurs; however, you slow the other elements on the page. Actually,
the JS preload slows the page as well, but I think the timing between
mouseover and the appearance of the animation is what you are more
worried about.

As an aside, I would take out the carriage returns between the end of the
leaf IMG tag and the /A tag. I happened to be looking at the page through
a browser with links underlined, and not putting the /A right after the
IMG tag causes there to be a single space after the image that is
underlined on the page.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinnning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Jason Harris wrote:
[snip]
> I use a single rollover on my entrance page that invites the viewer to
> continue. The "off" image is static and the "on" image is an animated
> GIF that fades in (I always seem to go for the cinematic type effects).
> My original script works great, but the animation doesn't preload. there
> is a noticeable pause while the browser queries the server for the new
> image. I think this might confuse some visitors.
>
> I've recently found a simple script at http://www.webcoder.com that
> solves the preload dilemma, but causes an interesting effect, mainly
> that my animation doesn't animate anymore! when rolled over the static
> "off" image flashes instantly to the last frame of the animated GIF
> bypassing the whole animation.
[snip]
> BTW for viewing reference, here is the original:
> http://www.sirius.com/~meniscus/index.html
> and the funky one:
> http://www.sirius.com/~meniscus/indexd.html
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:17:20 -0500
From: Steven Champeon <schampeo@hesketh.com>
Subject: Re: Picture icons on web browsers

At 01:08 PM 12/16/97 +0100, David P. Leader graced us with:
> I must say I find this ugly on any page, even if you're not trying a clever
> effect. I've never heard anyone else complain, though. Am I supersensitive
> or what?

You've never heard anyone complain about Internet Explorer?

Wow.

I agree with your assessment. I think the way IE handles images and page
refreshes is ugly. If I'm not mistaken, though, it's an option, along with
whether or not to use "smooth scrolling".

It's too bad you can't also set "don't let www.microsoft.com bounce me
around from msid.msn.com to www.microsoft.com to gather stats on my visit".

Steve

- --
Steven Champeon | Go n-ithe an cat thú, is go
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ | n-ithe an diabhal an cat!
http://a.jaundicedeye.com | - Gaelic curse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:20:43 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Whoops! Mea Culpa

I spoke before I thought. Earlier, I said:

The text for those buttons is positioned one or two pixel higher
than the text for the Introduction button... And how simple is
that to avoid, particularly in Photoshop (just select the layer,
cut, and paste it back in, it's automatically centered).

Well, I forgot about descenders, they're why the text isn't lined up. The
designer apparantly did exactly what I said above, which would result in
any text with a descender (p, q, y, whatever) being raised over any text
without descenders. The solution is to manually bump the TWD (text with
descenders) down a notch or two, so it lines up with the TWOD (text without
descenders). Another job for Photoshop layers.

By the way, Porter, in addition to those suggestions I sent you for the
Babble FAQ, I suggest that you include a list of common acronyms. I think
the acronyms I coined above should be included, shouldn't they? :D

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:33:19 -0800
From: "Jim Bass" <jim@bassworks.com>
Subject: Re: different speed on Win and Mac

>Animation should display the same on a PowerMac and on an Pentium MMX.
>Which is why Apple initially sued Intel for allegedly using the same
>chip instructions on its MMX chip standard. One reason it may display
>slower on a mac is because Internet Explorer has been programmed by
>programmers used to programming for Windows95 (the same reason Photoshop
>runs faster on a mac) however Netscape should run at the same speed
>regardless.

This is not true. Microsoft hired the team that wrote ClarisWorks, set them
up with a healthy budget and had them build a Mac version of IE (starting
with version 3) from the ground up. They came up with a browser that gets a
lot more done with a lot less RAM.

For a long time Netscape was giving Mac users sloppy seconds, yet still
managed to earn undying loyalty.

Go figure.

As far as Photoshop running faster on a Mac, well, gee that would depend on
the Mac and the Wintel machine, wouldn't it?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:50:16 +0200
From: Steven Crane <stevec@datapro.co.za>
Subject: How IE drives me nuts. WAS: Picture icons on web browsers

The one thing that really drives me insane about IE is its insistence on
taking focus every time it refreshes while loading a page.

I'm one of those folk that always have about 10 apps going and jump from
one to the other to try and do as much as I can in as short a time as
possible. So when I'm reading my mail and want to check out a link I'll
click it and have the browser take focus, whether it was loaded or not.
Then if the page is a bit slow in loading I'll switch back to my mail
and carry on, only to have the browser grab the focus again as soon as
the page starts loading.

With each new release I hope they will just let me carry on with what
I'm doing and come back to the browser when the page has loaded but no
luck so far.

Steve Crane (MCSD, SBN2 Member)
E-mail ......... mailto:stevec@datapro.co.za
Web (Company) .. http://www.datapro.co.za
(Personal).. http://home.pix.za/pa/pak00325
ICQ Pager ...... http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4364105

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Champeon [SMTP:schampeo@hesketh.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:17 PM
> To: David P. Leader
> Cc: babble@highfive.com
> Subject: Re: Picture icons on web browsers
>
> You've never heard anyone complain about Internet Explorer?
>
> Wow.
>
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:05:30 -0500
From: Kurt Schlatzer <kurts@haht.com>
Subject: Re: different speed on Win and Mac

At 4:04 PM -0500 on 12/15/97, Pascale Camus-Walter wrote:

> Is it true that Macs don't display java and gif animations as well as
> Windows? Can anyone give me a technical explanation?
> (If it has been already discussed in the list, send me a copy of the debate).

No. There are too many variables in hardware, software to be able to
accurately blame it on a particular operating system. No two boxes will
display an animated gif or java animations at the same speed. One has to
factor in RAM, VRAM, hard disk speed, etc. Why don't we all put a little
more worry into how the animation look rather than how fast they are. You
can't control the speed, but you can control the design ;-)

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:08:31 -0800
From: Luis Cota <softech@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: technical possible? (rollovers...sigh)

> I agree in part with Ben there is a very good reason for not using
> rollovers so much if at all. They are boring, passe, yesterdays news,
> old hat. Although as Toby pointed out they are used widely in operating
> systems and in functional programs such as your web browser you
> virtually never see your basic rollover in a computer game (which is
> inherently trying to be as fun as possible).

Well, this is not entirely true... two of the new games that i have
purchased, Quake II and Jedi Knight both use rollovers. :-)

Luis Cota
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #80
***************************

Previous | ToC | Next