Babble v1 81

babble-digest Tuesday, December 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 081

In this issue:
Re: rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!
RE: Using rollovers...why?
RE: How IE drives me nuts.
gratuitous javascript mouseovers...
Re: Rollovers
Re: technical possible
Tech: onMouseover - NN and IE difference
[Babble] browser crap
TECH: Re: rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!
RE: Using rollovers...why?
RE: Rollovers and Anigifs
Re: Rollovers
Re: [Babble] browser crap
Re: javascript code showing in n2 & n3??
RE: Photoshop effect on Websafe colours
Re: javascript code showing in n2 & n3??
Re: Shelby's rollovers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:13:30 -0800
From: Luis Cota <softech@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!

as far as preloading, just put the image on the page with height and
width equal to 1. that way, the image will be preloaded

Luis Cota

Jason Harris wrote:
>
> Since I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about JS rollovers and
> animated GIFs I thought I'd combine the two for my take on the subject.
>
> I use a single rollover on my entrance page that invites the viewer to
> continue. The "off" image is static and the "on" image is an animated
> GIF that fades in (I always seem to go for the cinematic type effects).
> My original script works great, but the animation doesn't preload. there
> is a noticeable pause while the browser queries the server for the new
> image. I think this might confuse some visitors.
>
> I've recently found a simple script at http://www.webcoder.com that
> solves the preload dilemma, but causes an interesting effect, mainly
> that my animation doesn't animate anymore! when rolled over the static
> "off" image flashes instantly to the last frame of the animated GIF
> bypassing the whole animation. If there is a possible solution that
> another babble subscriber has found, I'd love to hear it. I'd really
> like to preload the images, but losing the effect isn't worth it.
>
> BTW for viewing reference, here is the original:
> http://www.sirius.com/~meniscus/index.html
>
> and the funky one:
> http://www.sirius.com/~meniscus/indexd.html
>
> Jason Harris
> Meniscus Interactive Design
> [This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
> [ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
> [ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
> [ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]
------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:17:00 -0500
From: Martha Wilkes <marwil@aent.com>
Subject: RE: Using rollovers...why?

<quote>
The guy said he didn't "know where to click" because he didn't "see any
buttons." And I thought, this guy is the *highest-level exec in the
company* and (other evil thoughts aside) he can't even tell where to
click
on an interactive menu???
</quote>

I tend to agree with you, Shelby. Has everyone here ever watched a
novice web user surf? They just don't get the bleeding edge stuff. They
can barely manage hypertext and truly think only button-y looking stuff
is clickable. This is one of the reasons I'm also on a user-interface
design list...people test for these things! Sun has a great feature on
the usability testing they did and how it affected their design.

I really enjoy the conversations on the list and I especially love
looking at all the cool websites everyone works on, but are we not a
minority of web users, and an elite minority at that? I'm even more of a
minority because I'm on a T1 at work. When I go home on my 28.8, I go
nuts!

I think we're all pushing the boundaries, which is FAB, but aren't we
going way over the heads of all those newbies (many of whom use AOL due,
in part, to its ease of use)? And what about all the new people logging
on every day...damn, my head hurts...I always seem to write such long
messages....I apologize.

La.

martha

[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:33:52 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <larthur@dbtinc.com>
Subject: RE: How IE drives me nuts.

If you want to collect all your IE4 gripes, bugs, faults and crap
together, I have a friend on the MSIE development team and I can forward
her the list. Microsoft (or at least my friend and her cohorts) are very
keen to make the best product they can. Whatever your personal feelings
about the Redmond machine, you can still let them know how you as a
developer feel about their free and growing-in-usage product's behavior.

Lance

http://glassdog.com

"Undulating plush, cuddly, machine
washable cannibalistic vegetables
driving equally plush vehicles on
a mission of destruction."

[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:25:45 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: gratuitous javascript mouseovers...

I just added javascript rollovers to the navigation of one of my sites,
the one that I consider to my personal marquee site: The Web Publishing
Resource Guide (sig in my URL).

I freely admit that I don't truly need them at all, but I thought "hey,
why not?" TheWPRG content is a bit dry and so anything to liven it up is
good, was my way of thinking. I previously had did have it so that when
a button was clicked, a message (rather than an URL) appeared in the
status line. Now the image changes. And why not?

- --
Tari Akpodiete - mailto:tari@sympatico.ca
Creator of The WEB PUBLISHING RESOURCE GUIDE
(aka TheWPRG) URL: http://members.aol.com/thewprg/
Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:15:23 -0600
From: TC Mangan <mangan@broker.com>
Subject: Re: Rollovers

Glad to see this thread on the list. Discussion of the tools available
and how they can be used well or poorly is exactly what I was looking
for when I subscribed.

When I took over the design at http://www.broker.com, the dreaded
horizontal scrollbar was rearing its ugly head way too often, and my
first priority was to get rid of it. I decided to put the links across
the top, but there were too many to provide descriptive text. I came up
with the idea of mimicking the browser toolbars, but NN3 was the
standard, and didn't provide a pop-up of the <alt> tag on images, so I
learned how to use javascript to pop up a description.

That's when I (in retrospect) got carried away and decided to make flat
buttons that pop up and press down and grey out at appropriate times.
I've had quite a few compliments from visitors, but when I look at the
site now, I see a lot of gratuitous mouseovers. It really comes down to
whether or not the visitors like the site, not whether I think it's well
designed or not (I don't).

I'm redesigning the site (from the ground up) again, and I plan to use
gratuitous mouseovers again, simply because they seem to be popular with
visitors. I believe the pop-up buttons made the navigation more
intuitive, as users are already used to that sort of thing in their
browsers, and although I'm scrapping the horizontal toolbar, I think
mouseovers will continue to make the navigation intuitive because users
are used to that sort of thing from other sites. Perhaps it's not
daring design, but I think it's still good design if it helps the
visitors find their way around.

Of course I invite commentary on the site. It was my very first attempt
at web design (the new incarnation will be the second) and I can use all
the help I can get. Or a web design job, if you're in charge and
feeling adventurous.

TC Mangan
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:47:36 +0100
From: Bruno Trematore <bruno.trematore@usa.net>
Subject: Re: technical possible

>Most commonly, image swapping happens when the mouse crosses over a link. I
>*know* where my mouse is. I don't need the web page to tell me where my
mouse
>is. Buttons reacting to the mouse arrow destroy the intuitiveness of a
button
>- -- isn't it supposed to look like something you press? Flat or greyed out
>means "don't press me." It only becomes a button when the mouse is over it.
>If a real button in, say, my car reacted to my finger being nearby, then I'd
>run screaming.

Yeah, but I imagine that some buttons on your car light up when you press
them. Or maybe they just are pressed down, and they do seem different when
you press them. I don't think that rollovers are "bad" design... they are
mostly "fun".
There are a lot's of program interfaces which react like rollovers, e.g.
Kai's Power Tools, which are not bad design (according to my opinion)!

I think that computer graphics gives you some possibilities which do not
exist in other media (paper, or simply an hardware keyboard), and deciding
not to use these possibilities is just as deciding to underuse the web
media. Exploring new ideas is nice, using them just because they "are
there" is stupid.

Two examples that I used on my homepage: on the main page there's a
photography, when you go with your mouse over it various writings get
underlined, but you could just decide to use the writings themselves to
point a link. It's a doubling of information, but I think that it's fun.
The other one is more useful: when your mouse goes over a thumbnail of a
photo or a drawing on the status bar appears the size of the "big" image
you're going to load. I didn't like putting this info on the text near the
thumbnail, so I used the browser's status bar, this gave me a more "polite"
design.

I agree with you if you say that some pages are so full of rollovers that
are just an headache, but in the end, it's the way a rollover is used that
makes the difference between "good" and "bad" design, I think. Just imagine
if some would have said that links shouldn't be underlined or differently
colored 'cause on a sheet of paper you can't jump from a page to another...

I am aware that some browsers do not support JS, so I try to exclude vital
information in rollovers, and use them just as goodies, otherwise many
people wouldn't understand the meaning of the page.

Or saying it in a different way: take a good movie as Blade Runner, the
story itself is enought to make a good movie out of it, but with special
effects the result is better. If you think about it, special effects are
useless, you can say the same things in a different way, but they are nice
and people want to see them. There's no need for those flying cars, but
they are cool, they could have used a less expensive "four wheels ordinary
car" and tell the same story, but in the way they did it, it was more...
"fun". Am I wrong?

Bye,

BRUNO TREMATORE
"I've got a head full of ideas
That are drivin' me insane"
visit my homepage:
http://www.interferenza.com/bruno
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:37:48 +1100
From: "Yalcin Yilmaz" <yyilmaz@catapult.com.au>
Subject: Tech: onMouseover - NN and IE difference

I have several images and when on a onMouseover event I wish to do the
following:
- ----------------
onMouseover="NewDoc('picture1.gif')";

function NewDoc(pict) {
parent.framepicture.document.open();
parent.framepicture.document.clear();
var htmltext = "" + "</html><body><img src='"pict"'></body></html>";
parent.framepicture.document.write(htmltext);
parent.framepicture.document.close();
}
- ---------------
The result I want is when the mouse is over one of my buttons, I want an
image displayed in the frame 'framepicture'. The buttons in question are in
framemain. The single and double quote combinations are difficult to make
out here - but you know what's going on. (function creates an HTML file on
the fly, with a single image (paramater 'picturename') in it - in
'framepicture'.

The problem is this.. It works fine on IE3, but in NN3 (I'm not sure with
NN4) when I move the mouse quickly from one button to another, NN3 crashes
(I'm using a Windows machine). Moving the mouse over the buttons slowly
(giving NN time to run the function in peace) works fine.

Is there a solution? Another way to achieve the results I want (NN3 and IE3
compatible). I use this function as providing a more stylish help for what
a button does (rather than text in the status bar).

Thanks in advance.

| Yalçin Yilmaz
| yyilmaz@catapult.com.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:47:13 -0500
From: "jannes" <binzip@francomm.com>
Subject: [Babble] browser crap

Hi everybody... i was going through my mail and i saw it was possible to
install ie3 16bit on a win95 system that also uses ie4, but not without
screwing up ie4's preformace. it has led me to this question:

For the most part i design for v4 ns and ie browsers. recently i've been
interested in designing for v3 ie and ns as well. since i don't feel like
screwing up ie's css and i surely don't feel like reinstalling ie3 every
confounded time i want to use it...

If i'm designing for ie4, ns4, and ns3... will this be enough for surfers
using ie3?

please send your responses to:
binzip@francomm.com

thanks

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:14:36 -0600
From: TC Mangan <mangan@broker.com>
Subject: TECH: Re: rollovers and anim. gifs in the same thread!

Jason Harris wrote:

> I use a single rollover on my entrance page that invites the viewer to
> continue. The "off" image is static and the "on" image is an animated
> GIF that fades in (I always seem to go for the cinematic type
> effects). My original script works great, but the animation doesn't
> preload. there is a noticeable pause while the browser queries the
> server for the new image. I think this might confuse some visitors.
>
> I've recently found a simple script at http://www.webcoder.com that
> solves the preload dilemma, but causes an interesting effect, mainly
> that my animation doesn't animate anymore! when rolled over the static
> "off" image flashes instantly to the last frame of the animated GIF
> bypassing the whole animation. If there is a possible solution that
> another babble subscriber has found, I'd love to hear it. I'd really
> like to preload the images, but losing the effect isn't worth it.

My solution would be to use several static images, and animate them
using javascript. onMouseOver, just call a setTimeOut that calls a
series of images up sequentially.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:32:53 -0500
From: tisiphone <tisifone@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Using rollovers...why?

At 11:17 AM 12/16/97 -0500, Martha Wilkes wrote:
> Has everyone here ever watched a
>novice web user surf? They just don't get the bleeding edge stuff. They
>can barely manage hypertext and truly think only button-y looking stuff
>is clickable.

Amazingly true-the other day I watched a new internet user access the first
page of a 200+ page site. He looked at the front page and said, "Wow,
that's cool" and stopped there. I asked him why he didn't click on any of
the icons or underlined blue links to see the rest of the site, and he said
that he did not know what I meant. Then he said, "is that what they mean by
a link?"
I have seen other new users miss the point of a page altogether because
they did not realize you could scroll down to see more!

Of course, these are extreme cases, and you can't compensate for someone
not understanding the metaphor behind the software they are engaged with-it
doesn't just happen with newbie surfers, I have worked with casual users
who never realized that the programs they worked with every day shared
common user interfaces and who thus were terrified of using new software.
It was almost as if when they opened a program, if they didn't see some
'data', that is to say if they opened up a spread sheet program and didn't
see a spreadsheet with familiar data on it, they had no idea how to proceed.

>are we not a
>minority of web users, and an elite minority at that? (SNIP)
>but aren't we
>going way over the heads of all those newbies (many of whom use AOL due,
>in part, to its ease of use)?

Yup, but I wonder-how can any interface design be intuitive enough to help
the really raw newbies, without irritating the more experienced user-I
usually turn off features meant to help new users-such as "tips" and
"tours" and "assistants" and safeguards that keep asking me if I am sure I
want to delete that file. It seems like it would take a huge, blinking
arrow and a voice from heaven saying "click here" to get some users to
"see" a clickable button.

> This is one of the reasons I'm also on a user-interface
>design list...people test for these things! Sun has a great feature on
>the usability testing they did and how it affected their design.

I've read the Sun feature and found it interesting-is the list you are
talking about open to new subscribers and if so, can you provide a link for
this list addict?

Bettina G. May

"curiosity is the hunger of reason"
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:05:27 -0500
From: Anne <anne@iweb.net>
Subject: RE: Rollovers and Anigifs

I think I've solved Jason's problem with the javascript rollover to the
anigif that won't animate.

His anigif was set to run once. If you make it loop and put a long delay
(1,000) on the last frame, it works fine.

Seems as if the run-once anigif runs on preload and won't run again when it
is loaded for the mouseover. As a looping anigif, it seems as if it's
always ready to play.

Nice graphics too! How refreshing.

Anne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:15:11 -0500
From: leslie harpold <leslie@fearless.net>
Subject: Re: Rollovers

I use rollovers a lot - but I'm partial to using the kind that display in
another part of the screen and serve to give more info about the section it
sends you to. not to mention my clients always get off on th gee-whiz
factor and truthfully, it saves me from their suggestions - like midis,
animations, plugins on the main page etc.

i can't be the only one with clients who want a lot of hulabaloo going on!

a lot of this is about taste and design style - for example - while i
admire lance's work on glassdog - you'd be hard pressed to find me doing
any 3d effects. it's not that it doesn't look good (it can look great)
it's just not in my personal armory of things i do. having a "style" is
how the right clients find you, and vice versa. i'm always working to
refine and extend my style, and truthfully, i have done some shameful
things for a buck - design train wrecks to appease clients. i'm not quite
to the "auteur" level yet where i pick them, they're still picking me (-
but at least they're picking me!)

in other words, i can do things i like better than things i don't feel
passionate about.

that was a big digression - anyway - i try to give some functionality to
rollovers where possible, and i believe that keeping the eye entertained as
well as the brain informed is a component of functionality.

but that's just me.

leslie harpold - + - + - + - + - + -+ - + - + -
publisher, SMUG http://smug.com
read Smug, because No One is Sexier than You!
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:15:34 -0800
From: Ben Curtis <quixote@wenet.net>
Subject: Re: [Babble] browser crap

jannes wrote:

> If i'm designing for ie4, ns4, and ns3... will this be enough for surfers
> using ie3?

For layout and images and such, this should be fine. If you program anything
in JavaScript, however, IE3 is equivalent to N2 (both use JavaScript 1.0),
except for IE3 for Mac, which has only a partial implementation of JavaScript.
Since it is easy to install multiple Netscapes, you could install N2 for such
testing, but this system isn't foolproof and I wouldn't recommend it. Testing
plug-ins is another story altogether.
Read up on creating multiple boot-sectors on your hard-drive -- it's a pain
but the only way short of getting a Mac to test on all platforms.*

* Here's another thread to discuss: single computer, multiple platform testing.
I've got a Mac on which I can run N2, N3, N4, MSIE 2, MSIE 3, and (soon)
MSIE4, and SoftWindows (Windows 95) with multiple boot "disks" for MSIE3 and
MSIE4, N2, N3 and N4. I figure I can cover all the bases with this one
computer. The only things I think I'm missing out on is the screwy Gamma on
PC monitors and the fact that my PC is emulated and therefore *very* slow, so
I can't test PC speed but I can test PC substance.
My question is, with this set up, is there anything in the PC world that I
am missing and can't test? Also, is there a set-up that allows a single PC to
test for all platforms (for under $2500), save, of course, for Gamma correction?

~~
__________qp_______________________________________________________

Ben Curtis "A thought
once put to words,
mailto:quixote@wenet.net loses its true essence.
http://www.wenet.net/~quixote But what else can we do?"
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:24:19 +0000
From: "colin" <c.z.robertson@mail.ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: javascript code showing in n2 & n3??

On 16 Dec 97 at 1:00, babble-digest wrote:

> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:43:04 +1300
> From: Mark Zeman <zeman@morse.co.nz>
> Subject: javascript code showing in n2 & n3??
>
> Hi all,
>
> Just implemented a simple random image javascript - works fine in all
> browsers but in n2 & n3 the javascript code appears under the cell and
> shoots off across the page, seems like a browser rendering error or
> something to do with returns & spaces (at a guess??)
>
> Anyone come across this problem and have a solution ??? - before I lose all
> faith in all browser technology and give up writing pages that work in 6+
> browser combinations !!
>
> Cheers,
> Mark Zeman
>
> Director/Designer

I know N3 has a bug causing javascript in tables to do what you
described. I ran into the problem on my Kitching site and the only
solution I could find was to generate the whole table with
javascript. Fortunately it was a simple table.

colin
_____________________________________________________
Rational and The Arthur Kitching Gallery:
http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~s.robertson/
http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~s.robertson/kitching/
[This mailing list is a service of High Five http://www.highfive.com/]
[ To unsubscribe, send the following one line to babble@highfive: ]
[ "unsubscribe <babble or babble-digest> [<e-mail address>]" ]
[ H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:38:13 -0800
From: Christopher <chris@christopher.org>
Subject: RE: Photoshop effect on Websafe colours

On Tuesday, December 16, 1997 4:00 AM, David P. Leader
[SMTP:d.leader@bio.gla.ac.uk] wrote:
> There is now a quick fix with the
> free Web Clipper plugin from Boxtop Software. Can't find the actual page
> any more, but the url of their site is:

>
> The Mac plugin certainly works a treat. Don't know if it is available for
> Windows.

Actually, we're looking into that plug-in over here at High Five. It seems
to be just like the Web Scrub plug-in available for free (or, you don't
have to buy anything to get the plug-in bundled with another piece of
software) at http://www.verso.com/agitprop/dithering/#ps -courtesy of
Verso's very own Todd Fahrner.

I'll let the list know my findings,
Christopher Schmitt
http://www.highfive.com/
415.278.9900 ext. 38
mailto:chris@christopher.org
"Oh, waiter. This conversation isn't very good."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:42:34 +0000
From: "colin" <c.z.robertson@mail.ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: javascript code showing in n2 & n3??

I just sent something saying javascript in tables wouldn't work in
N3. I was, of course, wrong. Here's something from WebCoder.com
that's rather more accurate than myself:

"Navigator 3 has problems displaying JavaScript
generated HTML (made with document.write()) inside
tables. If you create a nested table (a table within a
table) and try to put JavaScript generated HTML within
it, either your code will be displayed or nothing will be
displayed. Second, if you put certain JavaScript
generated form elements within tables and then resize the
window, the code will be displayed on the page and the
table will "splurge" its contents."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:04:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Turnbull <turnbull@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Shelby's rollovers

I think it's a pity that Shelby's employer had a hard time with her
rollovers--'cause they work better than a lot I've seen--with these, the
eye can remain on the text while picking up the graphic swapping
peripherally, rather than having to jump away from the cursor to read the
text that explains the graphics you just floated your cursor over.

On the subject of 'knowing where the cursor is,' while most readers of
this list are bound to have pretty advanced 'cursor-tracking' skills,
human/computer interaction studies show that a lot of people have either
difficulty in moving their mouse with precision, or difficulty seeing the
cursor, or both. For this audience, having visible feedback that says
'yes, indeed, you have the cursor over this active element' is a
tremendous boon.

> From: Shelby <srogers@worldweb.net>
> Subject: re: Using rollovers...why?
>
> Can I tell a story? OK. Maybe I'm just repeating sentiments, but oh well.
> One of the top-level management folks at the company I currently work for
> was told to take a look at a site right before it goes live
> <http://hairbear.worldweb.net/health/top.html>. He goes to the homepage,
> which has an interactive menu. You get the glow effect, and a little icon
> pops up above the whole menu. (please don't comment on the image to the
> left of the menu, I take no responsibility!)
>
> shelby rogers/web diva/dc webgrrl/person.html
>

Mark Turnbull | mark@contented.com

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #81
***************************

Previous | ToC | Next