babble-digest Wednesday, December 17 1997 Volume 01 : Number 083
In this issue:
Re: [Babble] browser crap
Web Site Garage!!
Re: roll overs
RE: using rollover....why?
rollovers, icons and words
Re: rollovers, icons and words
Re: rollovers, icons and words
Just what is a rollover with a rollover with functionality?
Re: PNG Tools?
RE: Rollovers and the Ruder|Finn web site
RE: Just what is a rollover with a rollover with functionality?
RE: Rollovers and the Ruder|Finn web site
RE: Rollovers and the Ruder|Finn web site
PNG?
addendum to rollovers, icons and words
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----Original Message-----
From: jannes <binzip@francomm.com>
To: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
Date: 16 December 1997 18:55
Subject: [Babble] browser crap
>Hi everybody... i was going through my mail and i saw it was possible
to
>install ie3 16bit on a win95 system that also uses ie4, but not without
>screwing up ie4's preformace. it has led me to this question:
>
>For the most part i design for v4 ns and ie browsers. recently i've
been
>interested in designing for v3 ie and ns as well. since i don't feel
like
>screwing up ie's css and i surely don't feel like reinstalling ie3 every
>confounded time i want to use it...
>
>If i'm designing for ie4, ns4, and ns3... will this be enough for surfers
>using ie3?
>
>please send your responses to:
>binzip@francomm.com
>
>thanks
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0000
From: "Steve Hunt" <steve@tnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Babble] browser crap
No,
Not really.....
Every browser seems to handle things differently.. If it works in Ns3
it
should work in IE3 without too many problems.. but it is best to check,
as
this is probably (nobody shout back with stats ) the IE browser that is
most
commonly used...
By a cheap 486 and test on that, with a screen res of 640*480 and 256
colours.....
steve
design department
- ------------------------------------------------
t i g e r i n t e r n e t
- ------------------------------------------------
Work: http://www.tnet.co.uk
Play: http://www.tnet.co.uk/users/spine
Sideline: http://www.world-cup.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:36:55 -0000
From: "Steve Hunt" <steve@tnet.co.uk>
Subject: Web Site Garage!!
Has anyone seen this....
steve
design department
- ------------------------------------------------
t i g e r i n t e r n e t
- ------------------------------------------------
Work: http://www.tnet.co.uk
Play: http://www.tnet.co.uk/users/spine
Sideline: http://www.world-cup.co.uk
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:44:33 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Re: roll overs
I think the Bennett Gold site referenced below is the perfect example
of a site
with gratuitous rollovers. I simply do not see the need for having perfectly
good text turn into little stars. I may be stupid, but by the time the text
has
changed into a star, I have practically forgotten what it said. This may
sound
ridiculous, but I think this could happen to alot of users, especially if
they
are visiting the site for the first time and are just mouse-browsing around
over
the links. And the flickering image above the links annoys me. Other than
that,
I like the site just fine.
What is good about the rollovers in this site?
- -chris
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: roll overs
Author: "Terrie Roca" <terrie@harnikbk.com> at INTERNET
Date: 12/17/97 12:36 AM
Re: So, we have a number of divergent views about the utility of rollovers!
Perhaps what is missing is an example of a truly unique application.
Check this: <http://www.BennettGold.ca/>
and click through any of the
image links.
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:46:00 -0500
From: Martha Wilkes <marwil@aent.com>
Subject: RE: using rollover....why?
<$.02>
I definitely like this use of rollovers much more than the others we've
been referenced to lately. There is a purpose for them: they aid in
navigation. They provide more information about what's in that
particular section of the site without actually having to go to the page.
They allow the user to get there directly. This is all good.
My only critique would be that perhaps the graphic should fit on a
640x480 without having to scroll down to see the rest of the image. I
even had to scroll on a 800x600. I also think the text could have
possibly been actual text instead of a picture of text. I'm just trying
to be mindful of those 28.8 users again, that's all!
</$.02>
martha
-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda J Gould [SMTP:a_firefly@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 10:16 PM
To: babble
Subject: RE: using rollover....why?
Here's a quiet site with rollovers...
Info is hidden, but not "just because" we could, instead to
give the
site some white space. To give some reverence to the photographs being
featured.
If the java script does not work, the user can still navigate via the
html links a the bottom of the page. So, the answer to Ben's survey
--Do you use the JavaScript or Java or Plug-in technologies to display
crucial information, unobtainable in any other manner?-- would be no for
me. And I probably won't until browsers are more standardized.
This is a fun and useful thread. Thanks for the good converstion.
Amanda
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:10:25 -0800
From: "Jim Bass" <jim@bassworks.com>
Subject: rollovers, icons and words
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BD0AC3.3ABE6A60
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've been reading the thread on rollovers, intrigued by the passionate
=
arguments made pro and con. Let's consider another, related, factor =
about web sites: the reluctance to use text to describe links.
Think back to the old web sites designed by academics and engineers.
=
They were undecorated text documents with one purpose: share information
=
resources. The links were often a full sentence or paragraph describing
=
what you'd get if you clicked it. Those sites were ugly, but they were =
functional. Many of the pretty sites today (the ones that are =
"designed") are obtuse, self-indulgent and hollow. All medium,
no =
message.
Recently a company in Chicago (www.uie.com)
did research on web site =
interfaces, asking a group of research subjects to go out and retrieve =
specific information while they sat back and watched. Turns out the =
sites most like the old, ugly version were the easiest for the the users
=
to use. Conclusion: give people a thorough description of what the link
=
is all about.
>From my years in advertising, then CD-ROM development, I've found
that =
many graphic artists are just plain hostile to the use of words -- =
they're too messy, too hard to make into a design "element." This
bias =
finds its way into too many ads, brochures and web sites. I remember =
when we were developing a Shakespeare CD-ROM, we spent a week trying to
=
come up with icons to represent Theme, Plot, etc. on the study guide. =
Nothing graphically could explain those concepts clearly. Finally, we =
said, "Hey, humans invented an alphabet for a good reason. Let's use
=
words!"
So, getting to the point, rollovers might serve as nice compromise. Keep
=
the icons and pretty stuff. When the mouse goes over the icon, pop up =
enough elaborative text to fully communicate what the link does.=20
Or maybe just find a way to make text look nicer. Because sometimes one
=
word is worth a thousand icons.
- --Jim Bass
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:43:47 -0500
From: Steven Champeon <schampeo@hesketh.com>
Subject: Re: rollovers, icons and words
Just a followup to Jim's thoughtful, if illegible (due to the HTML
in which is was marked up) piece:
UIE is located in Andover, Mass., not Chicago.
I recommend their book, "Web Site Usability: A Designer's Guide",
more about which can be found here:
http://world.std.com/~uieweb/bookdesc.htm
It tends to harp on usability vice the other, less measurable
aspects of site design, but that fits its focus: task-oriented
site usability. For a solid perspective on what people look for
and what they ignore *when they're looking for something*, read
this book.
Steve
- --
Steven Champeon | Go n-ithe an cat thú, is go
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/
| n-ithe an diabhal an cat!
http://a.jaundicedeye.com |
- Gaelic curse
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 17:43:14 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: rollovers, icons and words
Jim Bass says ...
>From my years in advertising, then CD-ROM development, I've found
that
>many graphic artists are just plain hostile to the use of words -- they're
>too messy, too hard to make into a design "element." This
bias finds its
>way into too many ads, brochures and web sites. I remember when we were
>developing a Shakespeare CD-ROM, we spent a week trying to come up with
>icons to represent Theme, Plot, etc. on the study guide. Nothing
>graphically could explain those concepts clearly. Finally, we said,
"Hey,
>humans invented an alphabet for a good reason. Let's use words!"
>
>So, getting to the point, rollovers might serve as nice compromise.
Keep
>the icons and pretty stuff. When the mouse goes over the icon, pop up
>enough elaborative text to fully communicate what the link does.
>
>Or maybe just find a way to make text look nicer. Because sometimes
one
>word is worth a thousand icons.
I agree with you Jim. If you look at the original icons within the Mac
interface, they were always accompanied by words. Then you got smaller
icons in toolbars and most of them worked because they illustrated an
easily understandable concept - pen, pencil, rubber, selection tool etc.
Then, along comes Windows and row after row of incomprehensible icons in
both the Microsoft programs and the 'shock horror' earlier versions of
PaintShop Pro.
An interface designer has to know when to use pictures and when to use
words and when to use both. The excuse that words can't be 'designed-in'
is pretty lame because that is *failing* to design. That is *styling* -
and styling without underlying design is just self indulgence.
Rollovers should never be essential to a web page, just a bonus. If all
they are doing is saying, 'Hey, you just ran your cursor over me!' what's
the big deal in that? Imaging having a voice message in a car that says,
'Hey, you have just turned the stearing wheel'. If they say 'You ran your
cursor over me and if you now click, you will be taken too ...' that's
OK, except that non JavaScript 1.1 browsers won't work.
My approach is to do ...
function swap(a,b,c,d)
{
if(document.images)
{
document.images[a].src=b.src; //the button
document.images[c].src=d.src; //the text in lean GIF format
}
else
{
window.status='This takes you to the links page";
return true;
}
}
I usually hide window.status messages like this
<A HREF="the_url.html or javascript_function" onmouseover="swap(a,b,c,d),
self.status='', return true">
It is essential to handle the mouseover code within a filtered function
and not explicitly within the onmouseover call itself. i.e.
onmouseover="a.src=b.src" is not filtered by 'if(doument.images)'
and
will cause JavaScript errors in MsIE 3.x on PCs.
(btw This is pseudo code, the variables a,b,c,d have to be declared
somewhere.)
You could have both the mouseover message AND the window.status message
but it is also wrong to give too much information, especially when one or
the other is redundant.
You can see all this in action at the URL below though there is still
room for improvement.
Joe
____________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s_____________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:06:45 EST
From: TheGilster <TheGilster@aol.com>
Subject: Just what is a rollover with a rollover with functionality?
Sorry, I might be new to this one, but just what is a functional rollover?
I
know what they are, but what does it mean to have a functional rollover?
Thanks,
Gil Kruger
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 11:12:45 -0800
From: Craig Hockenberry <craigh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PNG Tools?
The problem with PNG has never been with capabilities. It's a better
format than GIF, no question.
The problem has always been with support. I remember when PNG was first
hatched in 1993-4 in response to Unisys' licensing. It has taken 4 years
to get it into the browsers. That's a long time in Internet time.
In my opinion, it's best to wait for the next generation of browsers
(IE
& NS 5.0) before you can be sure that 90% of your audience will be able
to view the graphics without a plug-in or other external support.
This is a cutting edge with too much blood.
Later,
- -ch
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:55:33 -0600
>From: egan jones <wahoo@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
>Subject: PNG Tools?
>
><confusion> What!?!
> No [babble] about PNGs!?!
> </confusion>
>
>I've been wanting to play around with PNGs since the PNGLive plugin
was
>promised to be bundled with the 4.0 browsers. The 4.0 browsers are
here,
>and now it's time to =USE= !
- --
www.furbo-filters.com == Photoshop plug-ins for Web & Graphic design
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:44:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Mark Newhouse <newhouse@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu>
Subject: RE: Rollovers and the Ruder|Finn web site
Thanks Amanda for pointing us to a truly elegant site.
The rollovers here serve purpose for design (the white space that Amanda
mentioned) and interactivity, functioning as a simple pull-down menu,
which most internet users should be used to using.
If you haven't visited this site I encourage you to do so. There is a
lot
of well thought out design at work here. I particularly enjoyed the
Thoughts and Images section (under Perspectives) which made excellent use
of lowsrc images. The text of the quote appears first, and then the Image
appears behind it - brilliant! I believe Amanda was responsible for that
bit of magic.
This is the type of site design I strive for, but I have yet to reach.
But there is a lot of fun in trying!
- --Mark
newhouse@lpl.arizona.edu
<-> Interaction
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~newhouse
<-> Distraction
http://ipt.lpl.arizona.edu
<-> Instruction
http://www.WebSiteCreation.com
<-> Production
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:49:46 -0800
From: Marc Northover <marc@eni.net>
Subject: RE: Just what is a rollover with a rollover with functionality?
One example:
Our company home page uses rollovers. However on our homepage we have
two images that
switch on the rollover. One that just makes the button highlight (for the
fun of it) and another
that provides some graphical text on what the link will get you if you click.
- -----Original Message-----
From: TheGilster [SMTP:TheGilster@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 10:07 AM
To: babble@highfive.com
Subject: Just what is a rollover with a rollover with functionality?
Sorry, I might be new to this one, but just what is a functional rollover?
I
know what they are, but what does it mean to have a functional rollover?
Thanks,
Gil Kruger
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:51:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Mark Newhouse <newhouse@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu>
Subject: RE: Rollovers and the Ruder|Finn web site
The URL for the Ruder|Finn web site is http://www.ruderfinn.com
- I
forgot to post it in my previous post -- oops!
- --Mark
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 15:29:08 -0500
From: ryan carver <rcarver@graceland.edu>
Subject: RE: Rollovers and the Ruder|Finn web site
Mark Newhouse
>Thanks Amanda for pointing us to a truly elegant site.
(www.ruderfinn.com)
lurkMode=0;
I totally agree. this is one of the first sites I've seen in a while
that
made me say "wow, that's really good." the lowsrc use is especially
nice.
here's an experimental site I'm working on that uses rollovers quite
a
bit:
http://www.graceland.edu/~rcarver
(netscape 4 only right now. sorry.. I
know, I know... :)
comments are very welcome.
aside from the 'home' page which gives descriptions, the rollovers were
mostly used to give a sense of life to the pages. there's not much
content there yet
also has some cool uses of javascript (imho) to reduce unncecessary pages
& work on my part. check the digital image gallery & the bgcolors
of the
navbar and surrounding frames.
on that note... what is the opinion of using frames to center a the small
interface area in a big browser window? what about opening up new
windows? I know a lot of users hate that, but it often makes the sense to
designers as far as giving the user the ability to return to previous
pages
this is a great thread. :)
ryan carver
<< ryan k. carver
<< rcarver@graceland.edu
<< www.graceland.edu/~rcarver
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:23:25 +1000
From: esoweb <esoweb@one.net.au>
Subject: PNG?
I went to look at some PNG resources and I do not have the plugin...I
am
running Communciator 4.03, though.
- --
| Toby Hede
| Designer/Programmer
| esoweb
| => web design & development
| http://www2.one.net.au/~esoweb/
- --------------------------------------
It is better to be inspired than wired
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:53:23 -0800
From: "Jim Bass" <jim@bassworks.com>
Subject: addendum to rollovers, icons and words
First, sorry about the HTML in the first post-- Outlook Express sets
that as
a default.
But an afterthought on the subject was that DHTML can solve a lot of
the
problems with fitting enough descriptive text into a small and elegantly
designed space. Unfortunately, the 4.0 browsers are not in wide enough use
to deploy a general site using DHTML just yet. But they hold a great deal
for the future.
- --Jim
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End of babble-digest V1 #83
***************************